March 12, 2025 • 45 mins
In the remote outback of Victoria in 1993, Ralph Vollmer believed his wife, Joan, was possessed.
Ralph enlisted members of his local religious community to perform an exorcism, hoping to rid Joan of the ten demons they believed controlled her. What followed was a horrific four-day ordeal that ended in Joan’s death.
Margaret Thanos is the director of Furious Mattress, a play based on Joan Vollmer’s tragic story. It raises the question: what are the ethics of turning a real-life tragedy into entertainment?
You can find tickets to see Furious Mattress here.
THE END BITS
CREDITS
Guest: Margaret Thanos
Host: Gemma Bath
Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was
recorded on It's February nineteen ninety three in outback Victoria
and the tiny town of Antwerp is sweltering through a
forty degree day. Ralph Volmer and some of his neighbors
(00:32):
are sitting down for lunch in his home's kitchen. It's
been an exhausting four days and they're confident that successfully
freed his wife of the demons that have possessed her body.
Joan still hasn't stirred, though they've been waiting for her
resurrection for days. I'm not sure why it's taking so long.
(00:53):
They call the local Baptist minister for guidance, who swiftly
calls the local doctor, who calls the police because the
group is calmly eating sandwiches next to a horrifying scene,
the decomposing remains of forty nine years old Joan Volmer,
whose body clearly shows the horrific effects of starvation, abuse
(01:18):
and torture. I'm Jemma Bath and this is true Crime
Conversations Amoma Mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes
by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
Joan Volmer was the victim of a violent four day
(01:40):
exorcism performed by her husband and three other members of
her local religious community. They believed that ten demons were
in control of her body and subjected her to horrific
violent abuse in an attempt to rid her of them.
If that's not shocking enough, the justice system's reaction to
this gruesome crime is equally as baffling. Today, we've got
(02:04):
a very different guest on to talk us through this story.
Margaret Thanos is the director of Furious Mattress, a play
by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of what
happened to Joan. We wanted to explore a few things
in our chat with Margaret, the case itself and the
complexities of turning real true crime stories into entertainment. It's
(02:29):
certainly not a new phenomenon. Streaming services are full of
based on a true story, fictionalized reenactments of awful crimes.
Margaret had some interesting insights to share about how to
tread that line respectfully and sensitively. Here's our chat, Margaret.
(02:50):
This is a bit of a different one for us.
You're the director of a play that's based on a true,
horrible crime that happened in Australia in the nineties. It's
called Furious Mattress, and I want to get this question
out of the way nice and early before joining this project.
Did you have to grapple with the fix of turning
(03:12):
a real life tragedy into I mean, we'll call it entertainment,
fictionalized entertainment.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, it's a really important question, actually, and one that
I haven't actually been able to talk about very much
through the process, So I'm really.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Excited to answer this.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I think that when I first read the show, I
was grappling a lot with the amount of physical violence,
particularly obviously against women, that is presented in the production,
and I thought a lot about it, because you know,
putting a dead woman on stage at any point is
always a difficult question, and putting intimate partner violence on
(03:50):
stage is always something that we're talking about. But I
think the show spoke to me so much, and this
story spoke to me so much. It's said in the nineties,
in the same way that the original case obviously happened
in the nineties, but was written in twenty ten twenty
eleven had its original production then and then hasn't been
touched since. And I do a lot of activism work
(04:13):
and have spent lots of time talking about intimate partner
violence and sexual violence and things like that through my
activism work, and I thought a lot about what representation.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Means right now.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
And I think when it's in the hands of someone
and a team that is really passionate about making sure
that else who's the equivalent of the real Joan in
the story is represented in a complex, detailed way, and
that at the heart of it, you're telling a story
about two people who love each other so much that
they would do anything for each other.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Because Ralph Slash.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Pierce in the show, you know, loved his wife so
much that he wanted to perform and exorcism on her
because he wanted her to be the way that she
used to be, you know, he wanted her to be safe.
And that's the deep irony that sits inside of the play.
And the real story is performing violence. How far would
(05:10):
you go for the people that you love and what
would you do to them? How much would you hurt
them to try and save them? And I think that's
ultimately what the story is about. So it was a
difficult question. But I think that we've had millions of
consultants and all sorts of things on this project to
make sure that we're doing it properly, we're doing it safely,
and that we're telling the story in the right way.
(05:33):
And so yeah, I feel good about it. I guess
is the short's the short answer of the question.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I've also dabbled in the reviews, yes, and I've seen
the play described as tragic obviously but also comedic, which
made me pause because how do you do that sensitively?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, mel who's the play Rights written by Melissa Eves,
has written this extraordinary piece of work that is deeply
and horribly funny and has obviously taken liberties outside of
the real case. There's a lot more sort of supernatural
events inside of the show then I imagine were in
(06:13):
the real situation. And I think that's the beautiful thing
about theater and about art is that Mel's telling a
story about love, and so she's taken Liberty's inside of
that to do that, And there are some truly hilarious bits.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
We were just doing a bit.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I've just literally walked away from the theater to come
here today and we're just doing a bit that is
so so funny, and the tragedy inside of the show
is that Else and Pierce, their relationship is so strong
and so beautiful, and that they are funny together and
they do have fun together, and that's why when what
happens unfolds, it's so heartbreaking, because there is a real
(06:49):
relationship and love there, and I think sometimes you can't
really have the darkness in the way that this play
asks for darkness in droves.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Without having that humor and that light.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Lots of people really do believe in deliverance and exorcism
in the real world, as I've learned through doing this process,
but they also the sort of courage of conviction or
deep conviction inside of believing in this process is can
be very funny because they sort of grab on to
(07:20):
small moments like a move of an eyebrow or a
nodding of a head and turn it into huge moments
of like that's a demon.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
That's a demon. That's a demon, And.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Inevitably that's kind of hilarious because from the outside we're
sitting there being like, well, that's obviously not a demon.
Like what, but so, yeah, that's part of where the
humor comes from.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I think, have you had any tension from anyone involved
in the real life story, any feedback?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I think that the original production did have tension, which
was at the Malt House in Melbourne in twenty and eleven,
I believe, but I know we haven't heard anything. But
I guess, you know, part of I think when you're
telling stories that matter is that you should end up
with conflict sometimes because if we just tell stories that
(08:08):
are safe, then we won't come into conflict. But you know,
talking about something that is so relevant right now, the
death of that young girl very recently in the news
at the hands of ultra religious parents and ultra religious
group is so relevant to this case, and you sort
of see like how over time, you know, maybe our
(08:31):
perspectives on that have changed a lot, given that in
this original case with Joan Volma, they got away with it,
they weren't sentenced in any way, and like that speaks
so much to where Australia was in the nineties with
women and domestic violence, and you know how we valued
women's lives. And so yeah, anyway, no no contact from
(08:52):
anyone involved in the original story. I'm sure they wish
to put it behind them themselves.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I am going to get to the real story. But
I am curious to hear your thoughts because obviously, this
play is not the first time that based on a
real story has been turned into art. We see it
every day on Netflix on all the streaming services. Do
you think it can be taken too far? I'm thinking
(09:19):
automatically about the Menendez Brothers that was turned into a
fictionalized based on a real so it's done over and
over again. What are your thoughts on the way we
do it.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I think that I used to be really obsessed with
true crime like adaptations, and I think that I moved
away from it partially because you know, I was sort
of like not able to sleep at night. But I
think that my take on it is partly that it
really depends on if there's a point to telling the story,
(09:49):
you know. I think that there's some really interesting content
being made, particularly by the streamers around like how do
we talk about, you know, violence in sort of the
different ways that it manifests. What's coming to my mind
right now is Baby Reindeer, which obviously has just been
like a huge success, and that story is so interesting
(10:10):
because lots of those crimes that that character, the woman,
she sort of steps over lines that are would never
have been considered crimes ten fifteen years ago, right, like
sending lots and lots of text and inundating and but
then of course you get into the stalking and stuff.
But I think there's a real point to talking about
what online violence means and what those sorts of things mean.
(10:33):
And I think similarly with this story, you know, there's
kind of very unfortunately a never ending need to continue
to talk about intimate partner violence and violence against women
and how different community groups use ultra strong beliefs, like
it's not just religious groups but different sort of minority
(10:55):
groups in various forms use you know, belief systems and
those sorts of things to oppress women in spaces and
justify violence against them. Is inevitably important to continue to
talk about, at least here.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
In Australia and you know, pretty much everywhere in the world.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
So I think that's my take on it is that
if it's got a point, and like that doesn't mean
that it's like hitting you over the head with the point,
but if it's sort of there's a reason for continuing
to tell these stories, then I think that's important. Sometimes
I think that we are taking it sort of into
a place where it's sort of like a sick pleasure,
and I do think that that is possibly wrong, because
(11:34):
you're sort of milking people's genuine suffering through like murder
and the serial killer obsession that we sort of do have,
you know, the Ted Bundy's, Jeffrey Dahmer's sort of stories.
We sort of are milking other people's suffering to create
what I consider to be quite light entertainment. Now, whereas
you know, I think the great thing about theater I
(11:56):
think as an art form is that, you know, usually
usually don't tell stories unless they really matter, because it's
so hard to do theater. And so I think that
in this case it's it definitely feels justified.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Let's tell the real story. Let's tell Joe's Yeah, I
want you to transport listeners back to Antwerp in Victoria
in nineteen ninety three. What is that part of the
country like and what's that community like?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Really really desolate, I think, is how I would describe it.
I think at the time the population of the town
was sixty three people, just tiny it's tiny, like if
you work in an office block, probably the people on
your floor or on the two floors above you, is
that many people that would have been your whole town.
(12:44):
And the really interesting thing about the real house where
the events take place is that it's so far away
from anything else. And you know, there's that classic horror
you know, no one can hear you scream kind of thing,
which I think is very real and present in this
story of Joan, is that she was completely isolated. There's
(13:04):
no running away from this situation. There's no running to
the next houseover and and saying, please help me, I'm
in trouble. The next houseover is ages away, you know,
acres and acres away from you know, and so on
and so forth. So there's very little in the town.
You have to go the next town over in order
(13:26):
to get to the sort of mainstream Christian church that's there.
So really I think a lot about sound and about
silence when I think about this show and about this story,
because so much time would be passing where all you
could hear was the sound of nature and nothing else
(13:46):
was happening around you, and so on the farm that
Joan and Ralph lived on they were pig farmers, so
you know, the pigs and things.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So they were pig farmers or Ralph was a pig farmer. Yes,
And they were a kind of fairly new relationship, weren't they.
There's like a second marriage for both of them.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yea, their story, that's true.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So they married when Joan was forty four and Ralph
was nine, so late in life, which I think is
really interesting, and he has in previous interviews described it
as like meeting her was like a miracle, you know,
like the second chance for him, which I think is
so beautiful and endearing. He had a previous marriage and
(14:28):
had a child in that marriage. Joan didn't have children,
had never married, not sure about her relationship history, but
had had sort of trouble holding down a job and
things like that, and he had gone through lots of
different career paths and was quite entrepreneurial. And then eventually
sort of they im packed up their lives and moved
(14:49):
to Antwerp together because there was sort of this sort
of boom in like pig farming, I think.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And interesting, really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I would know absolutely nothing about that, being a city
rat myself. Yeah, So I think all of That is
really interesting context because you know, you're sort of dipping
out of the honeymoon phase of a marriage, right, like,
you know, four or five years in by the time.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
That they everything happened.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Everything happens.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Do we know anything about their relationship? You speak about
it quite fondly. So there was no abuse, there was
no kind of strains that we know of.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
It's difficult, I guess to tell, because one of the
big problems with the case is obviously that all of
the evidence that's gathered mostly is gathered from him and
his perspective and the people who are defending themselves in
this case, like they talk about the relationship, but of
course Joan's voice is missing in that right. Joan's family
(15:50):
denied some of the claims that he had made about
them because there was a claim at one point that
Joan had been sexually abused as a child, and the
family denied that, of course, I guess, but yeah, I
think probably the most interesting sort of key point is
that two two years prior to the events of the
(16:14):
play slash the real exorcism, Joan had been admitted into
a institution called Lakeside, and the doctors at that institution
had said that it was quite likely that Joan was
suffering from a form of schizophrenia. And I think that's
really important to all of the rest of the story,
(16:34):
is that that part mental health kind of being less
of a topic than it obviously is in twenty twenty five,
and our understanding of mental illnesses like schizophrenia being much
less clear back then. But she had been to some
extent diagnosed and given medication that she then came off.
(16:55):
And I think that's really important setting for the events
of the story.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
So in January nineteen ninety three, what kind of behavior
did Rolf say he was starting to notice in Joan?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So he said that he was starting to notice she
was lurching and dancing outside, sometimes naked, which disturbed him greatly.
He claimed that she was quote this is actual quote
acting like a prostitute, which he said at the trial,
and that she took on the physical form of a
pig and a dog and the personality of a sheep shearer,
(17:31):
and that she was swearing loudly. She would tear off
her clothes and run through the fields. So I think
it's important sometimes on podcasts about I've listened to absolutely
everything that there is to listen to about this case,
and sometimes I do think that there's like a immediately
a characterization of Ralph as like a quite like an abusive,
(17:55):
violent man. And I think that actually it's really important
to remember that he did all of this because he
loved her, and that like it's hard for us, I think,
like modern audiences and modern women to like wrap their
heads around how that's possible. But sometimes I think love
is like so intense that you do those things. And
(18:17):
so I do think that he was probably actually quite
scared of her behavior and like physically felt threatened. And
so I think this that's quite an interesting sort of
back drop as well, that this kind of behavior which
obviously I think to like, it's quite obvious that if
she'd come off her meds that she'd been given, you
know that it was just a resurgence in the behavior
(18:38):
as a result of coming off the meds.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
To me, that sounds like a clear ment.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Totally obvious.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, totally obvious, And I completely agree with that. But
I also think that like him turning to God in
this moment because he was extremely devout and turns to well,
what can God do for me in this moment? And
the solution that's presented to him by his fellow charismatic
Christians is like exoricism and deliverance.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Can we talk about the people he turns to for help,
because they actually had been excommunicated from their church, right,
so we've got lots of play here. But they were
giving him very skewed advice. What was their kind of story?
Why had they been excommunicated?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
So Leanne Reichenbach, who was their neighbor, I don't know
if she was a direct neighbor or you know, somewhere
in the town, but lived in Antwerp as well. They
had a Bible study group, her and her husband, and
they had actually started this group yet, as you say,
after being excommunicated, and she had been excommunicated for, which
(19:47):
is really interesting and I sort of can't quite wrap
my head around what Ralph was thinking at this moment,
is that she had been excommunicated from the church for
trying to exercise too many people and trying to perform
exorcisms without enough evidence. Because it's really important to note
that the Catholic Church in particular has really really strict
(20:10):
rules whether or not a person is allowed to have
an exorcism performed on them. Or not, and it's a
really like clear list of criteria. Then it has to
go all the way up to the highest levels of
the church before it gets approved and comes back.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So it is still something we do.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
It's still church.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, okay, I'm not religious, so this is news to me.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh yeah, well news to you is that it is
absolutely something that people are still doing, both inside and
outside of the church. And yes, so anyway, so Leanne
had tried too many times with very little evidence, to
perform exorisms on people and had encouraged people to have
exorcisms when it just like clearly wasn't necessary because.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
You know, with the church, the official church procedure.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
You have to see a psychiatrist, you have to see
a doctor, you have to see all these people.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Who can testify it.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
No, no, this is actually something other than medical. So
she is quite an interesting character and is represented inside
of our show as well.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
So he turns to.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Leanne first, and then Leanne starts to bring in all
these other people, which is really like the rest of
these people are so interesting and like you just sort
of can't quite wrap your heads around what must.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Have been going on inside of this house for these four.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Days you're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.
I'm speaking with Margaret Thanos, director of Furious Mattress, a
play by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of
a four day exorcism in Victoria, Australia. Up next to
Margaret tells us how the exorcism started and how Joan
(21:54):
was identified as having multiple demons within her. I want
to bring in the people as because it's a four
day kind of yees series of events we're talking about. Yes,
it starts, it escalates, So how does it start? What
is the starting point? What does she suggest to Rolf
that he do so?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
At first, Rolf attempts to get rid of the demons
on his own by locking.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Joan in the basement and he leaves her.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
There, and obviously she screams all through the night, and
so later he ties her to the bed in the room,
leaves her there. Again, she's still screaming. It's obviously not working.
That's when he calls Leanne and that's when this four
(22:44):
day process begins, and so they have intense prayer sessions and.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Joan obviously starts to struggle and.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Because they're not feeding her, they're.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Not feeding her, okay, they're denying her water, which I think,
you know obviously is you know, you can't quite understand
why humans do these sorts of things to each other
because it sort of seems so obvious that you would
physically be harming them. But there are so many exorcism
stories very similar to this, where young women in particular
are killed this way where you know they've made it.
They emaciated and then they starved to death through processes
(23:18):
like this.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Horrific.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
It's horrific.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
It's absolutely all they And actually Joan didn't die of starvation,
she died of the physical force that they were applying
to her body.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I would like to add as well that Leanne had
kind of diagnosed her as having ten demons. It was very.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Specific, ten specific demons, and I can name some of
them for you now, which is based on the trial transcripts.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
There was the spirit of filth, the spirit of abuse.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
But the most interesting one, I think is this demon
which they called Legion, which is actually from a real
story in the Bible. The meaning of Legion is it's
like the power of many or the power of lots,
and this is a very popular demon in.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
The exorcism community.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Apparently the story from the actual Bible, there's this story
where Jesus comes across this man who's wandering around in
the desert and gives him an exorcism and all the
demons go into this horde.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Of pigs and then the pigs run off the cliff.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
But the man says this thing before Jesus does this,
where he goes, we are legion for we are many,
and apparently Joan was saying something along similar lines at
the time. So they identified ten specific demons, and I
think that's quite interesting because when you think about schizophrenia
(24:38):
and what that is and sort of the personality shifts
that can seem to be occurring inside of that illness,
it is quite interesting that, you know, they were actually
kind of identifying these sort of personalities that were emerging
from Joan, but they just didn't know why. Oh, they
justified it in a different way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
So there are two young men and they were young,
they're in their twenties. Yes, that Leanne kind of calls
in to help David Klinger and Matthew Nusk. Can you
tell us about them because they traveled.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
They traveled from torl Swiss.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, and I'm a bit obsessed with Matthew in particular
because he travels all the way from Melbourne Melbourne, CBD
where he's living at the time, and he's doing a
plumbing apprenticeship at the time, and that's.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
The only experience he's never done an exorcism before. And
it's his mother.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Leanne talks to his mother and his mum recommends him
because his mum believes that he's possessed with this power
of God, this power of spirit that will help to
exercise Joan.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
And he's twenty two years old, like he's extremely young.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's instances like this where I start to see the
comedy because you can't.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Can't help but think it's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
And so yeah, NUSK came in and did some really
really weird things. Instructed the group to destroy all of
Joan's possessions, including destroying.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Her very beloved garden. She loved her garden so so,
so so much.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
But then he did this thing where he wraps cling
rap around the house seven times, and I'm just obsessed
with this image, like I can't get it out of
my head. Just why, no idea I've been researching, trying
to figure.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Out what on earth would have been possessed and all?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And so you do start to see the comedy, don't you,
Because all I can think of is that he saw
the cling rap in the drawer and thought on his
feet and when this will help. I wish that I
could talk to him, because I just wish that I
could know.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Why that was a thing.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
The other man that we're talking about is David. He
was twenty eight. He also traveled in. He was someone
else that Leanne called in thinking that he'd be able
to help. Had a similar story, not much background, not
much kind of religious standing. So we've got David, Matthew,
Leanne and rolfs. Was there anyone else across those four
(27:06):
days that was involved?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So there was this one other woman called Leah Klugston.
And I think she's really interesting because Leah never actually appeared,
She never came to the house during the four days,
but she was this in a seventies, seventy eight at
the time, spiritual leader, you know, someone who Leanne clearly
(27:32):
looks up to and only gave guidance over the phone.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
But at a moment.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Where Rolf was having clear moments of doubt, he has
this one moment where he was like, we shouldn't be
doing this, and they call Leah, and Leah, knowing nothing
about the state that Joan is in except for what
they've told her, says, I'm getting a message from God,
and God is telling me that you must continue. And
(27:59):
so that is the real turning point I think for Joan.
You know, like that that moment could have saved her life,
and instead it didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Obviously, because we've talked about the fact they've restrained her,
the fact that they've starved her, all of these things.
But it starts to get incredibly violent, particularly from those
younger men.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
She's physically beaten, physically beaten repeatedly across the head, smashed
into the walls, and they made Matthew, made the others
sit on her body, and they tied her up with
her own stockings, which I like, I don't know why,
but I can't get that image out of my head,
(28:40):
just like having been tied up with your own possessions,
and they.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Restrained her physically.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
But yeah, absolutely total totally abusive, totally physically violent, and
very very dangerous. And then ultimately they do this thing
in exorcism sometimes which is called like pressing and pressing
the demons out, and.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
It literally is exactly what it says.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
It's physically pressing on the person's body because they do
believe that the demons a corporeal in some way and
that they can be like pressed out and emerge from
the mouth in a way, and so they press all
it up up the body to try and apply pressure
to release the demons from the body. And it was
(29:25):
that pressure on Joan's thyroid that ends up it burst
and it ended up killing her.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
The goal wasn't to kill her, absolutely not, No, the
goal was.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
To get the demons out. When she died, how did
they react? Was that like that wasn't the plan? But
she passed away? What was that moment like, because we
unfortunately have a lot of detail about that moment because
they've spoken about it in detail.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, the fascinating thing about this case, I think, is
how long they waited. And this is where the belief
system sort of really becomes so fascinating, because so Joan dies,
there's no pulse and they celebrate. They celebrate because they
believe that she's going to be resurrected and that that's
(30:16):
God's plan and so much so, you know, this is
not sort of like a way of justifying it. They
totally I believe, having read everything I have about the
case and listen to everything that I could find, I
totally believe that they believed that she was going to
come back to life. I really do feel that at
(30:36):
least Ralph really believed that because he wasn't.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Ever ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
And it's that key image of the police coming in
and seeing them sitting at the table eating lunch while
they are near this body that's totally decomposing two days
later is really interesting. But yeah, they celebrated and they
started to pray over the body, and yeah, it was
(31:03):
only once a few more people had come into the
situation that then you know, it sort of went we
need to call a doctor, to call the police. So
it was two days of praying and waiting, praying and
waiting and eating lunch. Yeah, And I don't know if
you know anything about how the body decomposes and how
quickly the body decomposes, but in the heat that it was,
(31:25):
it was forty degrees or close to every single day
in that four days, it was super super hot. In
that kind of heat, bodies decompose extremely rapidly and so
by the time that the police found her, she would
have been very much half gone, really like properly, flies, maggots.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
All sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, sorry, it's really vulon, but I think that's it
is the reality of the images is that after two
days of waiting, that's how far along the body would be.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
But it's sort of.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
This interesting suspension of disbelief that these people would have
had to have in order to be watching this body
in real time decompose. The mel would have been utterly unbelievable,
like unforgiving, and yet they're standing there praying, singing that
(32:21):
she's going to wake up. And Ralph he remained totally
confident that she was going to wake up all the
way until they buried her at the funeral.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Next what happens when the police find Jones's body. So
the police find Jones's body, but they don't arrest anyone initially.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
They kind of just know, no, they don't.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And I think it's really interesting how the justice system
dealt with this case. I sort of have questions about
whether there was just a lot more forgiveness because of
how truthfully these people seemed to believe that she was
going to come back to life that like.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
They truly believed. There's this quote.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Here from Volma where he spoke to media in the
lead up to the funeral, where he said that everything
that was done was done according to God's plan. I
am not sad, only humble and excited that God has
chosen me to be a part of this miracle. And
that's in the lead up to the funeral process, which.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Was about a week after police found her body. Yes,
and Ralph invites the media to come to the funeral.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yes, what happens, and obviously Joan does not wake up,
and he only ever cried the moment that her the
coffin hit the ground.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
That that was when he broke down.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And there's this fantastic photos of him just like super
Chipper at the beginning of the funeral and then just
the sort of crumpling at the realization that he actually
might have had a hand in the murder of his
own wife.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
So yeah, there's all this media.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
At the funeral and taking all these photos of him.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Jones's body as well as being decomposed, it showed obvious
science of abuse, Like you could see, yes, that she
had been hurt, she was restrained, and yet I think
the thing I struggle to get my head around is
that there were no arrests for three months.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yes, I don't really know how to explain it. Like
I think that there's potentially at that time and maybe
even now, there's a complexity with practices that happen that
are on a religious basis here I think here in
Australia or maybe in the Western world more broadly, I
(34:52):
think there's like a complexity of what is defensible on
the basis of someone's religious beliefs is a really really.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Tricky subject matter.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I'm in no way justifying that this was ever okay,
and it wasn't and it never should be, but that
I think the mentality of the cops, and there's a
quote that goes something along the lines where one of
the police said talks about their belief system, and the
(35:23):
judge as well at the trial spoke about how their
intense belief that she was going to be resurrected is
the reason and that they were saving her. Their intense
belief that through exorcism they were saving her means that
they don't deserve to be punished for the crime, which
I think is a really interesting conversation for the present
(35:45):
moment where it's like, does ignorance mean that you don't
deserve you know, like I if I killed you right
now and I said I didn't know it was a crime,
is that like that would not be justifiable? And so
it sort of seems like this ignorance was used to
justify straight.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Up murder, like it's it's murder.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And they were all sort of charged initially with manslaughter,
not even with murder, which is crazy because I I
guess there was no intent to kill.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, and we're talking about there were four people charged,
so Ralph, yes, that's correct, the husband, Leanne, who was
that initial kind of person that diagnosed her with the demons,
and then David and Matthew, men in their twenties. Yes,
all initially charged with manslaughter. And then initially a magistrate
found that there was insufficient evidence for trial and they got.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Let off, I know, which is crazy because there was
lots of evidence. I mean, I don't know, if you know,
they had covered things up at the house, you know,
like I imagine two guys in their twenties in this situation.
And I remember there's this quote from Matthew where he said,
you know, if they want me, they'll find me, and he.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Just sort of like literally left. But they performed another exorcism.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Leanne performed another exorcism four days later after this incident,
which I that is one of the facts that just
makes my head spin, just like you went through all
of that and then you were like four days later, yeah,
let's do it again, Like it's so crazy.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
They did end up going to trial, Yes, what was
the result of that.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
So, yeah, this part's hard to talk about, I think
because it's really devastating.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Oh I find it devastating.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
So Ralph and Matthew, the twenty two year old, received suspended.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Sentences, so no prison time was.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
No prison time, absolutely none. They were found guilty of manslaughter,
but they didn't receive any prison time, which you know,
I could go on a rampage and sort of talk
about like why I think that is. But and then
David Kligner was sentenced to three months, and interestingly, Leanne,
(38:00):
the only other woman involved in the situation, was sentenced
to four months, which you know, is still nothing. But
I find it really interesting about this case that the
result of it is that the woman experienced the harshest
penalty when both ends.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Like when we know that the men, the young men. Yes,
we're doing a lot of the physical yes, like beating.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Yeah, so I think you know, this case and why
this story is important is because it speaks to something
so much bigger that's going on. And yeah, I really
think that these the results from this trial are just
absolutely devastating for Joan, Like she just never received any
justice for what happened, and you know, Ralph went on
(38:46):
to remarry have another life after her, and yet the
only thing that remains of her is like the memory
that exists in podcasts like these ones and the story
of Furious Mattress the show.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Was there outrage at the time because reading that that
three of them well basically got to tap on the
wrist one of them got formal. What was the reaction
from Australia Because when I was doing research on this story,
it felt I kind of was wrecking my head being like,
where's the outrage? There's enough outrage.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It was interesting because what I've read about it is
that it divided the Antwerp community, but that on the whole,
like there just wasn't as much about it as there.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Should have been.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
You know, like when you think about if that happened. Now,
I sort of I would hope that, you know, we
would be kicking up a fuss and trying you know,
maybe maybe maybe that's idealist to me, but yeah, I
just think that, you know, the way they spoke about
it was like beware of lone rangers who do not
come with the blessing or authority of a recognized denomination,
like sort of uses a warning story that came from
(39:56):
the head of the horse Horsham Salvation Army, which is
a town nearby to Antwerp. But you know, you're sort
of like, why was this not absolute outrage and discussed,
you know, across the whole country, Like I think at least,
or at least that's my understanding of it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, Well, when you kind of dipped into the project
the play, had you heard about this story?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Never?
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Not? Ever?
Speaker 3 (40:20):
I sort of didn't.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
When I first read the show, I didn't realize that
it was based on a true story. And then when
we finished reading the play that night, I was reading
it with a group of friends and we finished reading
it and someone was like, I think this might be
based on a true story, and I was like, surely not,
Like what what do you mean? Like this would never happen,
and you know, to sort of then start to dig
(40:41):
in and to dig even further and then to sort
of find out all this stuff about the case was
just remarkable. Like I think, we think about these stories
and we sort of think about the States, or we
think about those sorts of things, and the fact that
it would happen here and has happened here is so scary.
I found it very scary that it could have happened
in the nineties.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
And you know, do we know where these people are now?
Where Rolf, where Matthew, where Leanna are?
Speaker 2 (41:07):
I do know that Matthew. Matthew runs a dream Builder's
church in Smithton with his wife Sharon, now, which you know,
to be honest, is utterly terrifying to me. You know,
I'm sure that from the age of twenty two to
now you grow up a lot, and you you know,
but the idea that there's still running spaces where vulnerable
(41:31):
people are turning to them in times of need.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
After behavior like this is terrifying.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Leah died in twenty sixteen, and I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
About Leanne or Ralph. I mean, I think Ralf.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Came out only very very recently and did make some
kind of statement potentially admitting that, you know, maybe if
you could go back, you maybe wouldn't do everything.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
The way that you had.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
But for years he was like, he claimed that maybe
she didn't want to come back because it was so
beautiful up in heaven, and that is an actual quote
that he said. So that belief sort of stayed, and
he was very adamant for years and years that like
they'd done the right thing and that if it was
God's plan for Joan to die, then that was the
plan that he had made, which I yeah, terrifying.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I know that the play is based on a true story,
but does it put any pressure on the questions that
we've explored about the justice system about Australia's response. What
are you hoping people get from knowing it's a true story.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
I think that I hope that they see the parallels
with the amount of women that are still dying at
the hands of their partners right now in Australia. You know,
I think we hit one hundred last year, which is
you know, nearly close to one hundred, which is nearly
two a week, you know, and I think that where
we're not in good stead right now, domestic violence in
Australia is an absolute epidemic, like and there's just no
(42:55):
other way of describing it other than it's happening so often,
and it's not just here, you know, we are not
isolated in this. All around the world, this is still
such a massive issue. And like the fact that there
are so many women and girls not safe and children
not safe in their homes in a country that has
(43:16):
so much privilege and so much wealth and so much
possibilities of how we might be able to solve these issues,
the fact that we're still struggling with these issues speaks
to much larger cultural issues. And so I hope that
people come to see the show and that they think
of Joan, but they also think of the thousands and
thousands of women that are just like Joan, who are
(43:37):
also equally as forgotten, if not more forgotten, because you know,
Joan's story has kind of permeated through time only because
of the interesting nature of exorcism. You know, we love
films like The Exorcist. We love that kind of story
because it's so interesting and it's something other than this world.
And we love horror as a nation and as a
(43:58):
group of people on the whole really, and or you know,
at least the people listening to this podcast, I presumably
like horror, and it's sort of more the real horror.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
And what I love about the play is that mel
has written.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
A horror piece, but the real horror is actually the
idea of not being safe in your own home, and
that that is a real life horror. You know, we
can talk about, we can make jokes about crazy things
happening and objects coming to life and all the wonderful
things that happen as a part of the play and
as a part of so many horror films, But at
the end of the day, the real horror is the
(44:35):
simplicity of sitting across from your intimate partner and knowing
that that person could physically harm you, or might want
to if they are under the influence of alcohol or
something goes wrong or whatever it is. So yeah, I
think that's what I hope people think about as they
walk out of the show.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Do you think about Joan much in the creation of
this totally?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I think I feel I hope that the show's in
memory of her, But as I said, of all women
who've died in ways like this or been harmed in
ways this. I hope that people do read about the
original case. I hope it leads more people to think
about the fact that this is based on a true story.
(45:19):
I hope it leads to that, because, you know, I
think that sometimes we can isolate ourselves from stories like
this and say, you know, oh, that would never happen here,
and that's the whole point. Like it did and it
still does in various forms.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Thanks to Margaret for helping us to tell this story.
True Crime Conversations is a Mum and mea podcast hosted
and produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with
audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening.
I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation
You're listening to a MoMA Mea podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waterers. This podcast was
recorded on It's February nineteen ninety three in outback Victoria
and the tiny town of Antwerp is sweltering through a
forty degree day. Ralph Volmer and some of his neighbors
(00:32):
are sitting down for lunch in his home's kitchen. It's
been an exhausting four days and they're confident that successfully
freed his wife of the demons that have possessed her body.
Joan still hasn't stirred, though they've been waiting for her
resurrection for days. I'm not sure why it's taking so long.
(00:53):
They call the local Baptist minister for guidance, who swiftly
calls the local doctor, who calls the police because the
group is calmly eating sandwiches next to a horrifying scene,
the decomposing remains of forty nine years old Joan Volmer,
whose body clearly shows the horrific effects of starvation, abuse
(01:18):
and torture. I'm Jemma Bath and this is true Crime
Conversations Amoma Mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes
by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
Joan Volmer was the victim of a violent four day
(01:40):
exorcism performed by her husband and three other members of
her local religious community. They believed that ten demons were
in control of her body and subjected her to horrific
violent abuse in an attempt to rid her of them.
If that's not shocking enough, the justice system's reaction to
this gruesome crime is equally as baffling. Today, we've got
(02:04):
a very different guest on to talk us through this story.
Margaret Thanos is the director of Furious Mattress, a play
by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of what
happened to Joan. We wanted to explore a few things
in our chat with Margaret, the case itself and the
complexities of turning real true crime stories into entertainment. It's
(02:29):
certainly not a new phenomenon. Streaming services are full of
based on a true story, fictionalized reenactments of awful crimes.
Margaret had some interesting insights to share about how to
tread that line respectfully and sensitively. Here's our chat, Margaret.
(02:50):
This is a bit of a different one for us.
You're the director of a play that's based on a true,
horrible crime that happened in Australia in the nineties. It's
called Furious Mattress, and I want to get this question
out of the way nice and early before joining this project.
Did you have to grapple with the fix of turning
(03:12):
a real life tragedy into I mean, we'll call it entertainment,
fictionalized entertainment.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Yeah, it's a really important question, actually, and one that
I haven't actually been able to talk about very much
through the process, So I'm really.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Excited to answer this.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I think that when I first read the show, I
was grappling a lot with the amount of physical violence,
particularly obviously against women, that is presented in the production,
and I thought a lot about it, because you know,
putting a dead woman on stage at any point is
always a difficult question, and putting intimate partner violence on
(03:50):
stage is always something that we're talking about. But I
think the show spoke to me so much, and this
story spoke to me so much. It's said in the nineties,
in the same way that the original case obviously happened
in the nineties, but was written in twenty ten twenty
eleven had its original production then and then hasn't been
touched since. And I do a lot of activism work
(04:13):
and have spent lots of time talking about intimate partner
violence and sexual violence and things like that through my
activism work, and I thought a lot about what representation.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Means right now.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
And I think when it's in the hands of someone
and a team that is really passionate about making sure
that else who's the equivalent of the real Joan in
the story is represented in a complex, detailed way, and
that at the heart of it, you're telling a story
about two people who love each other so much that
they would do anything for each other.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Because Ralph Slash.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Pierce in the show, you know, loved his wife so
much that he wanted to perform and exorcism on her
because he wanted her to be the way that she
used to be, you know, he wanted her to be safe.
And that's the deep irony that sits inside of the play.
And the real story is performing violence. How far would
(05:10):
you go for the people that you love and what
would you do to them? How much would you hurt
them to try and save them? And I think that's
ultimately what the story is about. So it was a
difficult question. But I think that we've had millions of
consultants and all sorts of things on this project to
make sure that we're doing it properly, we're doing it safely,
and that we're telling the story in the right way.
(05:33):
And so yeah, I feel good about it. I guess
is the short's the short answer of the question.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I've also dabbled in the reviews, yes, and I've seen
the play described as tragic obviously but also comedic, which
made me pause because how do you do that sensitively?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Yeah, mel who's the play Rights written by Melissa Eves,
has written this extraordinary piece of work that is deeply
and horribly funny and has obviously taken liberties outside of
the real case. There's a lot more sort of supernatural
events inside of the show then I imagine were in
(06:13):
the real situation. And I think that's the beautiful thing
about theater and about art is that Mel's telling a
story about love, and so she's taken Liberty's inside of
that to do that, And there are some truly hilarious bits.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
We were just doing a bit.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I've just literally walked away from the theater to come
here today and we're just doing a bit that is
so so funny, and the tragedy inside of the show
is that Else and Pierce, their relationship is so strong
and so beautiful, and that they are funny together and
they do have fun together, and that's why when what
happens unfolds, it's so heartbreaking, because there is a real
(06:49):
relationship and love there, and I think sometimes you can't
really have the darkness in the way that this play
asks for darkness in droves.
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Without having that humor and that light.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Lots of people really do believe in deliverance and exorcism
in the real world, as I've learned through doing this process,
but they also the sort of courage of conviction or
deep conviction inside of believing in this process is can
be very funny because they sort of grab on to
(07:20):
small moments like a move of an eyebrow or a
nodding of a head and turn it into huge moments
of like that's a demon.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
That's a demon. That's a demon, And.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Inevitably that's kind of hilarious because from the outside we're
sitting there being like, well, that's obviously not a demon.
Like what, but so, yeah, that's part of where the
humor comes from.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I think, have you had any tension from anyone involved
in the real life story, any feedback?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
I think that the original production did have tension, which
was at the Malt House in Melbourne in twenty and eleven,
I believe, but I know we haven't heard anything. But
I guess, you know, part of I think when you're
telling stories that matter is that you should end up
with conflict sometimes because if we just tell stories that
(08:08):
are safe, then we won't come into conflict. But you know,
talking about something that is so relevant right now, the
death of that young girl very recently in the news
at the hands of ultra religious parents and ultra religious
group is so relevant to this case, and you sort
of see like how over time, you know, maybe our
(08:31):
perspectives on that have changed a lot, given that in
this original case with Joan Volma, they got away with it,
they weren't sentenced in any way, and like that speaks
so much to where Australia was in the nineties with
women and domestic violence, and you know how we valued
women's lives. And so yeah, anyway, no no contact from
(08:52):
anyone involved in the original story. I'm sure they wish
to put it behind them themselves.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
I am going to get to the real story. But
I am curious to hear your thoughts because obviously, this
play is not the first time that based on a
real story has been turned into art. We see it
every day on Netflix on all the streaming services. Do
you think it can be taken too far? I'm thinking
(09:19):
automatically about the Menendez Brothers that was turned into a
fictionalized based on a real so it's done over and
over again. What are your thoughts on the way we
do it.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I think that I used to be really obsessed with
true crime like adaptations, and I think that I moved
away from it partially because you know, I was sort
of like not able to sleep at night. But I
think that my take on it is partly that it
really depends on if there's a point to telling the story,
(09:49):
you know. I think that there's some really interesting content
being made, particularly by the streamers around like how do
we talk about, you know, violence in sort of the
different ways that it manifests. What's coming to my mind
right now is Baby Reindeer, which obviously has just been
like a huge success, and that story is so interesting
(10:10):
because lots of those crimes that that character, the woman,
she sort of steps over lines that are would never
have been considered crimes ten fifteen years ago, right, like
sending lots and lots of text and inundating and but
then of course you get into the stalking and stuff.
But I think there's a real point to talking about
what online violence means and what those sorts of things mean.
(10:33):
And I think similarly with this story, you know, there's
kind of very unfortunately a never ending need to continue
to talk about intimate partner violence and violence against women
and how different community groups use ultra strong beliefs, like
it's not just religious groups but different sort of minority
(10:55):
groups in various forms use you know, belief systems and
those sorts of things to oppress women in spaces and
justify violence against them. Is inevitably important to continue to
talk about, at least here.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
In Australia and you know, pretty much everywhere in the world.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
So I think that's my take on it is that
if it's got a point, and like that doesn't mean
that it's like hitting you over the head with the point,
but if it's sort of there's a reason for continuing
to tell these stories, then I think that's important. Sometimes
I think that we are taking it sort of into
a place where it's sort of like a sick pleasure,
and I do think that that is possibly wrong, because
(11:34):
you're sort of milking people's genuine suffering through like murder
and the serial killer obsession that we sort of do have,
you know, the Ted Bundy's, Jeffrey Dahmer's sort of stories.
We sort of are milking other people's suffering to create
what I consider to be quite light entertainment. Now, whereas
you know, I think the great thing about theater I
(11:56):
think as an art form is that, you know, usually
usually don't tell stories unless they really matter, because it's
so hard to do theater. And so I think that
in this case it's it definitely feels justified.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Let's tell the real story. Let's tell Joe's Yeah, I
want you to transport listeners back to Antwerp in Victoria
in nineteen ninety three. What is that part of the
country like and what's that community like?
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Really really desolate, I think, is how I would describe it.
I think at the time the population of the town
was sixty three people, just tiny it's tiny, like if
you work in an office block, probably the people on
your floor or on the two floors above you, is
that many people that would have been your whole town.
(12:44):
And the really interesting thing about the real house where
the events take place is that it's so far away
from anything else. And you know, there's that classic horror
you know, no one can hear you scream kind of thing,
which I think is very real and present in this
story of Joan, is that she was completely isolated. There's
(13:04):
no running away from this situation. There's no running to
the next houseover and and saying, please help me, I'm
in trouble. The next houseover is ages away, you know,
acres and acres away from you know, and so on
and so forth. So there's very little in the town.
You have to go the next town over in order
(13:26):
to get to the sort of mainstream Christian church that's there.
So really I think a lot about sound and about
silence when I think about this show and about this story,
because so much time would be passing where all you
could hear was the sound of nature and nothing else
(13:46):
was happening around you, and so on the farm that
Joan and Ralph lived on they were pig farmers, so
you know, the pigs and things.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So they were pig farmers or Ralph was a pig farmer. Yes,
And they were a kind of fairly new relationship, weren't they.
There's like a second marriage for both of them.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yea, their story, that's true.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So they married when Joan was forty four and Ralph
was nine, so late in life, which I think is
really interesting, and he has in previous interviews described it
as like meeting her was like a miracle, you know,
like the second chance for him, which I think is
so beautiful and endearing. He had a previous marriage and
(14:28):
had a child in that marriage. Joan didn't have children,
had never married, not sure about her relationship history, but
had had sort of trouble holding down a job and
things like that, and he had gone through lots of
different career paths and was quite entrepreneurial. And then eventually
sort of they im packed up their lives and moved
(14:49):
to Antwerp together because there was sort of this sort
of boom in like pig farming, I think.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And interesting, really interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
I would know absolutely nothing about that, being a city
rat myself. Yeah, So I think all of That is
really interesting context because you know, you're sort of dipping
out of the honeymoon phase of a marriage, right, like,
you know, four or five years in by the time.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
That they everything happened.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Everything happens.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Do we know anything about their relationship? You speak about
it quite fondly. So there was no abuse, there was
no kind of strains that we know of.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
It's difficult, I guess to tell, because one of the
big problems with the case is obviously that all of
the evidence that's gathered mostly is gathered from him and
his perspective and the people who are defending themselves in
this case, like they talk about the relationship, but of
course Joan's voice is missing in that right. Joan's family
(15:50):
denied some of the claims that he had made about
them because there was a claim at one point that
Joan had been sexually abused as a child, and the
family denied that, of course, I guess, but yeah, I
think probably the most interesting sort of key point is
that two two years prior to the events of the
(16:14):
play slash the real exorcism, Joan had been admitted into
a institution called Lakeside, and the doctors at that institution
had said that it was quite likely that Joan was
suffering from a form of schizophrenia. And I think that's
really important to all of the rest of the story,
(16:34):
is that that part mental health kind of being less
of a topic than it obviously is in twenty twenty five,
and our understanding of mental illnesses like schizophrenia being much
less clear back then. But she had been to some
extent diagnosed and given medication that she then came off.
(16:55):
And I think that's really important setting for the events
of the story.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
So in January nineteen ninety three, what kind of behavior
did Rolf say he was starting to notice in Joan?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
So he said that he was starting to notice she
was lurching and dancing outside, sometimes naked, which disturbed him greatly.
He claimed that she was quote this is actual quote
acting like a prostitute, which he said at the trial,
and that she took on the physical form of a
pig and a dog and the personality of a sheep shearer,
(17:31):
and that she was swearing loudly. She would tear off
her clothes and run through the fields. So I think
it's important sometimes on podcasts about I've listened to absolutely
everything that there is to listen to about this case,
and sometimes I do think that there's like a immediately
a characterization of Ralph as like a quite like an abusive,
(17:55):
violent man. And I think that actually it's really important
to remember that he did all of this because he
loved her, and that like it's hard for us, I think,
like modern audiences and modern women to like wrap their
heads around how that's possible. But sometimes I think love
is like so intense that you do those things. And
(18:17):
so I do think that he was probably actually quite
scared of her behavior and like physically felt threatened. And
so I think this that's quite an interesting sort of
back drop as well, that this kind of behavior which
obviously I think to like, it's quite obvious that if
she'd come off her meds that she'd been given, you
know that it was just a resurgence in the behavior
(18:38):
as a result of coming off the meds.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
To me, that sounds like a clear ment.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Totally obvious.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, totally obvious, And I completely agree with that. But
I also think that like him turning to God in
this moment because he was extremely devout and turns to well,
what can God do for me in this moment? And
the solution that's presented to him by his fellow charismatic
Christians is like exoricism and deliverance.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Can we talk about the people he turns to for help,
because they actually had been excommunicated from their church, right,
so we've got lots of play here. But they were
giving him very skewed advice. What was their kind of story?
Why had they been excommunicated?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
So Leanne Reichenbach, who was their neighbor, I don't know
if she was a direct neighbor or you know, somewhere
in the town, but lived in Antwerp as well. They
had a Bible study group, her and her husband, and
they had actually started this group yet, as you say,
after being excommunicated, and she had been excommunicated for, which
(19:47):
is really interesting and I sort of can't quite wrap
my head around what Ralph was thinking at this moment,
is that she had been excommunicated from the church for
trying to exercise too many people and trying to perform
exorcisms without enough evidence. Because it's really important to note
that the Catholic Church in particular has really really strict
(20:10):
rules whether or not a person is allowed to have
an exorcism performed on them. Or not, and it's a
really like clear list of criteria. Then it has to
go all the way up to the highest levels of
the church before it gets approved and comes back.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
So it is still something we do.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
It's still church.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yeah, okay, I'm not religious, so this is news to me.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Oh yeah, well news to you is that it is
absolutely something that people are still doing, both inside and
outside of the church. And yes, so anyway, so Leanne
had tried too many times with very little evidence, to
perform exorisms on people and had encouraged people to have
exorcisms when it just like clearly wasn't necessary because.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
You know, with the church, the official church procedure.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
You have to see a psychiatrist, you have to see
a doctor, you have to see all these people.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Who can testify it.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
No, no, this is actually something other than medical. So
she is quite an interesting character and is represented inside
of our show as well.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
So he turns to.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Leanne first, and then Leanne starts to bring in all
these other people, which is really like the rest of
these people are so interesting and like you just sort
of can't quite wrap your heads around what must.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Have been going on inside of this house for these four.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Days you're listening to true crime Conversations with me Jemma Bath.
I'm speaking with Margaret Thanos, director of Furious Mattress, a
play by Melissa Reeves based on the true story of
a four day exorcism in Victoria, Australia. Up next to
Margaret tells us how the exorcism started and how Joan
(21:54):
was identified as having multiple demons within her. I want
to bring in the people as because it's a four
day kind of yees series of events we're talking about. Yes,
it starts, it escalates, So how does it start? What
is the starting point? What does she suggest to Rolf
that he do so?
Speaker 2 (22:15):
At first, Rolf attempts to get rid of the demons
on his own by locking.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Joan in the basement and he leaves her.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
There, and obviously she screams all through the night, and
so later he ties her to the bed in the room,
leaves her there. Again, she's still screaming. It's obviously not working.
That's when he calls Leanne and that's when this four
(22:44):
day process begins, and so they have intense prayer sessions and.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Joan obviously starts to struggle and.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Because they're not feeding her, they're.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Not feeding her, okay, they're denying her water, which I think,
you know obviously is you know, you can't quite understand
why humans do these sorts of things to each other
because it sort of seems so obvious that you would
physically be harming them. But there are so many exorcism
stories very similar to this, where young women in particular
are killed this way where you know they've made it.
They emaciated and then they starved to death through processes
(23:18):
like this.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Horrific.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
It's horrific.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
It's absolutely all they And actually Joan didn't die of starvation,
she died of the physical force that they were applying
to her body.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
I would like to add as well that Leanne had
kind of diagnosed her as having ten demons. It was very.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Specific, ten specific demons, and I can name some of
them for you now, which is based on the trial transcripts.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
There was the spirit of filth, the spirit of abuse.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
But the most interesting one, I think is this demon
which they called Legion, which is actually from a real
story in the Bible. The meaning of Legion is it's
like the power of many or the power of lots,
and this is a very popular demon in.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
The exorcism community.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Apparently the story from the actual Bible, there's this story
where Jesus comes across this man who's wandering around in
the desert and gives him an exorcism and all the
demons go into this horde.
Speaker 3 (24:15):
Of pigs and then the pigs run off the cliff.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
But the man says this thing before Jesus does this,
where he goes, we are legion for we are many,
and apparently Joan was saying something along similar lines at
the time. So they identified ten specific demons, and I
think that's quite interesting because when you think about schizophrenia
(24:38):
and what that is and sort of the personality shifts
that can seem to be occurring inside of that illness,
it is quite interesting that, you know, they were actually
kind of identifying these sort of personalities that were emerging
from Joan, but they just didn't know why. Oh, they
justified it in a different way. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
So there are two young men and they were young,
they're in their twenties. Yes, that Leanne kind of calls
in to help David Klinger and Matthew Nusk. Can you
tell us about them because they traveled.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
They traveled from torl Swiss.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
Yeah, and I'm a bit obsessed with Matthew in particular
because he travels all the way from Melbourne Melbourne, CBD
where he's living at the time, and he's doing a
plumbing apprenticeship at the time, and that's.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
The only experience he's never done an exorcism before. And
it's his mother.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Leanne talks to his mother and his mum recommends him
because his mum believes that he's possessed with this power
of God, this power of spirit that will help to
exercise Joan.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
And he's twenty two years old, like he's extremely young.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
It's instances like this where I start to see the
comedy because you can't.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
Can't help but think it's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
And so yeah, NUSK came in and did some really
really weird things. Instructed the group to destroy all of
Joan's possessions, including destroying.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Her very beloved garden. She loved her garden so so,
so so much.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
But then he did this thing where he wraps cling
rap around the house seven times, and I'm just obsessed
with this image, like I can't get it out of
my head. Just why, no idea I've been researching, trying
to figure.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Out what on earth would have been possessed and all?
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And so you do start to see the comedy, don't you,
Because all I can think of is that he saw
the cling rap in the drawer and thought on his
feet and when this will help. I wish that I
could talk to him, because I just wish that I
could know.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Why that was a thing.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
The other man that we're talking about is David. He
was twenty eight. He also traveled in. He was someone
else that Leanne called in thinking that he'd be able
to help. Had a similar story, not much background, not
much kind of religious standing. So we've got David, Matthew,
Leanne and rolfs. Was there anyone else across those four
(27:06):
days that was involved?
Speaker 2 (27:09):
So there was this one other woman called Leah Klugston.
And I think she's really interesting because Leah never actually appeared,
She never came to the house during the four days,
but she was this in a seventies, seventy eight at
the time, spiritual leader, you know, someone who Leanne clearly
(27:32):
looks up to and only gave guidance over the phone.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
But at a moment.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Where Rolf was having clear moments of doubt, he has
this one moment where he was like, we shouldn't be
doing this, and they call Leah, and Leah, knowing nothing
about the state that Joan is in except for what
they've told her, says, I'm getting a message from God,
and God is telling me that you must continue. And
(27:59):
so that is the real turning point I think for Joan.
You know, like that that moment could have saved her life,
and instead it didn't.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Obviously, because we've talked about the fact they've restrained her,
the fact that they've starved her, all of these things.
But it starts to get incredibly violent, particularly from those
younger men.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
She's physically beaten, physically beaten repeatedly across the head, smashed
into the walls, and they made Matthew, made the others
sit on her body, and they tied her up with
her own stockings, which I like, I don't know why,
but I can't get that image out of my head,
(28:40):
just like having been tied up with your own possessions,
and they.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Restrained her physically.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
But yeah, absolutely total totally abusive, totally physically violent, and
very very dangerous. And then ultimately they do this thing
in exorcism sometimes which is called like pressing and pressing
the demons out, and.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
It literally is exactly what it says.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
It's physically pressing on the person's body because they do
believe that the demons a corporeal in some way and
that they can be like pressed out and emerge from
the mouth in a way, and so they press all
it up up the body to try and apply pressure
to release the demons from the body. And it was
(29:25):
that pressure on Joan's thyroid that ends up it burst
and it ended up killing her.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
The goal wasn't to kill her, absolutely not, No, the
goal was.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
To get the demons out. When she died, how did
they react? Was that like that wasn't the plan? But
she passed away? What was that moment like, because we
unfortunately have a lot of detail about that moment because
they've spoken about it in detail.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Well, the fascinating thing about this case, I think, is
how long they waited. And this is where the belief
system sort of really becomes so fascinating, because so Joan dies,
there's no pulse and they celebrate. They celebrate because they
believe that she's going to be resurrected and that that's
(30:16):
God's plan and so much so, you know, this is
not sort of like a way of justifying it. They
totally I believe, having read everything I have about the
case and listen to everything that I could find, I
totally believe that they believed that she was going to
come back to life. I really do feel that at
(30:36):
least Ralph really believed that because he wasn't.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
Ever ashamed of it.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
And it's that key image of the police coming in
and seeing them sitting at the table eating lunch while
they are near this body that's totally decomposing two days
later is really interesting. But yeah, they celebrated and they
started to pray over the body, and yeah, it was
(31:03):
only once a few more people had come into the
situation that then you know, it sort of went we
need to call a doctor, to call the police. So
it was two days of praying and waiting, praying and
waiting and eating lunch. Yeah, And I don't know if
you know anything about how the body decomposes and how
quickly the body decomposes, but in the heat that it was,
(31:25):
it was forty degrees or close to every single day
in that four days, it was super super hot. In
that kind of heat, bodies decompose extremely rapidly and so
by the time that the police found her, she would
have been very much half gone, really like properly, flies, maggots.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
All sorts of things.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
Yeah, sorry, it's really vulon, but I think that's it
is the reality of the images is that after two
days of waiting, that's how far along the body would be.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
But it's sort of.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
This interesting suspension of disbelief that these people would have
had to have in order to be watching this body
in real time decompose. The mel would have been utterly unbelievable,
like unforgiving, and yet they're standing there praying, singing that
(32:21):
she's going to wake up. And Ralph he remained totally
confident that she was going to wake up all the
way until they buried her at the funeral.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Next what happens when the police find Jones's body. So
the police find Jones's body, but they don't arrest anyone initially.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
They kind of just know, no, they don't.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
And I think it's really interesting how the justice system
dealt with this case. I sort of have questions about
whether there was just a lot more forgiveness because of
how truthfully these people seemed to believe that she was
going to come back to life that like.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
They truly believed. There's this quote.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Here from Volma where he spoke to media in the
lead up to the funeral, where he said that everything
that was done was done according to God's plan. I
am not sad, only humble and excited that God has
chosen me to be a part of this miracle. And
that's in the lead up to the funeral process, which.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Was about a week after police found her body. Yes,
and Ralph invites the media to come to the funeral.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yes, what happens, and obviously Joan does not wake up,
and he only ever cried the moment that her the
coffin hit the ground.
Speaker 3 (33:52):
That that was when he broke down.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And there's this fantastic photos of him just like super
Chipper at the beginning of the funeral and then just
the sort of crumpling at the realization that he actually
might have had a hand in the murder of his
own wife.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
So yeah, there's all this media.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
At the funeral and taking all these photos of him.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
Jones's body as well as being decomposed, it showed obvious
science of abuse, Like you could see, yes, that she
had been hurt, she was restrained, and yet I think
the thing I struggle to get my head around is
that there were no arrests for three months.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Yes, I don't really know how to explain it. Like
I think that there's potentially at that time and maybe
even now, there's a complexity with practices that happen that
are on a religious basis here I think here in
Australia or maybe in the Western world more broadly, I
(34:52):
think there's like a complexity of what is defensible on
the basis of someone's religious beliefs is a really really.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Tricky subject matter.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
I'm in no way justifying that this was ever okay,
and it wasn't and it never should be, but that
I think the mentality of the cops, and there's a
quote that goes something along the lines where one of
the police said talks about their belief system, and the
(35:23):
judge as well at the trial spoke about how their
intense belief that she was going to be resurrected is
the reason and that they were saving her. Their intense
belief that through exorcism they were saving her means that
they don't deserve to be punished for the crime, which
I think is a really interesting conversation for the present
(35:45):
moment where it's like, does ignorance mean that you don't
deserve you know, like I if I killed you right
now and I said I didn't know it was a crime,
is that like that would not be justifiable? And so
it sort of seems like this ignorance was used to
justify straight.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Up murder, like it's it's murder.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
And they were all sort of charged initially with manslaughter,
not even with murder, which is crazy because I I
guess there was no intent to kill.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Yeah, and we're talking about there were four people charged,
so Ralph, yes, that's correct, the husband, Leanne, who was
that initial kind of person that diagnosed her with the demons,
and then David and Matthew, men in their twenties. Yes,
all initially charged with manslaughter. And then initially a magistrate
found that there was insufficient evidence for trial and they got.
Speaker 2 (36:37):
Let off, I know, which is crazy because there was
lots of evidence. I mean, I don't know, if you know,
they had covered things up at the house, you know,
like I imagine two guys in their twenties in this situation.
And I remember there's this quote from Matthew where he said,
you know, if they want me, they'll find me, and he.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Just sort of like literally left. But they performed another exorcism.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Leanne performed another exorcism four days later after this incident,
which I that is one of the facts that just
makes my head spin, just like you went through all
of that and then you were like four days later, yeah,
let's do it again, Like it's so crazy.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
They did end up going to trial, Yes, what was
the result of that.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
So, yeah, this part's hard to talk about, I think
because it's really devastating.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Oh I find it devastating.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
So Ralph and Matthew, the twenty two year old, received suspended.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Sentences, so no prison time was.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
No prison time, absolutely none. They were found guilty of manslaughter,
but they didn't receive any prison time, which you know,
I could go on a rampage and sort of talk
about like why I think that is. But and then
David Kligner was sentenced to three months, and interestingly, Leanne,
(38:00):
the only other woman involved in the situation, was sentenced
to four months, which you know, is still nothing. But
I find it really interesting about this case that the
result of it is that the woman experienced the harshest
penalty when both ends.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Like when we know that the men, the young men. Yes,
we're doing a lot of the physical yes, like beating.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Yeah, so I think you know, this case and why
this story is important is because it speaks to something
so much bigger that's going on. And yeah, I really
think that these the results from this trial are just
absolutely devastating for Joan, Like she just never received any
justice for what happened, and you know, Ralph went on
(38:46):
to remarry have another life after her, and yet the
only thing that remains of her is like the memory
that exists in podcasts like these ones and the story
of Furious Mattress the show.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Was there outrage at the time because reading that that
three of them well basically got to tap on the
wrist one of them got formal. What was the reaction
from Australia Because when I was doing research on this story,
it felt I kind of was wrecking my head being like,
where's the outrage? There's enough outrage.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It was interesting because what I've read about it is
that it divided the Antwerp community, but that on the whole,
like there just wasn't as much about it as there.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Should have been.
Speaker 2 (39:33):
You know, like when you think about if that happened. Now,
I sort of I would hope that, you know, we
would be kicking up a fuss and trying you know,
maybe maybe maybe that's idealist to me, but yeah, I
just think that, you know, the way they spoke about
it was like beware of lone rangers who do not
come with the blessing or authority of a recognized denomination,
like sort of uses a warning story that came from
(39:56):
the head of the horse Horsham Salvation Army, which is
a town nearby to Antwerp. But you know, you're sort
of like, why was this not absolute outrage and discussed,
you know, across the whole country, Like I think at least,
or at least that's my understanding of it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, Well, when you kind of dipped into the project
the play, had you heard about this story?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
Never?
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Not? Ever?
Speaker 3 (40:20):
I sort of didn't.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
When I first read the show, I didn't realize that
it was based on a true story. And then when
we finished reading the play that night, I was reading
it with a group of friends and we finished reading
it and someone was like, I think this might be
based on a true story, and I was like, surely not,
Like what what do you mean? Like this would never happen,
and you know, to sort of then start to dig
(40:41):
in and to dig even further and then to sort
of find out all this stuff about the case was
just remarkable. Like I think, we think about these stories
and we sort of think about the States, or we
think about those sorts of things, and the fact that
it would happen here and has happened here is so scary.
I found it very scary that it could have happened
in the nineties.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
And you know, do we know where these people are now?
Where Rolf, where Matthew, where Leanna are?
Speaker 2 (41:07):
I do know that Matthew. Matthew runs a dream Builder's
church in Smithton with his wife Sharon, now, which you know,
to be honest, is utterly terrifying to me. You know,
I'm sure that from the age of twenty two to
now you grow up a lot, and you you know,
but the idea that there's still running spaces where vulnerable
(41:31):
people are turning to them in times of need.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
After behavior like this is terrifying.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Leah died in twenty sixteen, and I'm not sure.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
About Leanne or Ralph. I mean, I think Ralf.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Came out only very very recently and did make some
kind of statement potentially admitting that, you know, maybe if
you could go back, you maybe wouldn't do everything.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
The way that you had.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
But for years he was like, he claimed that maybe
she didn't want to come back because it was so
beautiful up in heaven, and that is an actual quote
that he said. So that belief sort of stayed, and
he was very adamant for years and years that like
they'd done the right thing and that if it was
God's plan for Joan to die, then that was the
plan that he had made, which I yeah, terrifying.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
I know that the play is based on a true story,
but does it put any pressure on the questions that
we've explored about the justice system about Australia's response. What
are you hoping people get from knowing it's a true story.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
I think that I hope that they see the parallels
with the amount of women that are still dying at
the hands of their partners right now in Australia. You know,
I think we hit one hundred last year, which is
you know, nearly close to one hundred, which is nearly
two a week, you know, and I think that where
we're not in good stead right now, domestic violence in
Australia is an absolute epidemic, like and there's just no
(42:55):
other way of describing it other than it's happening so often,
and it's not just here, you know, we are not
isolated in this. All around the world, this is still
such a massive issue. And like the fact that there
are so many women and girls not safe and children
not safe in their homes in a country that has
(43:16):
so much privilege and so much wealth and so much
possibilities of how we might be able to solve these issues,
the fact that we're still struggling with these issues speaks
to much larger cultural issues. And so I hope that
people come to see the show and that they think
of Joan, but they also think of the thousands and
thousands of women that are just like Joan, who are
(43:37):
also equally as forgotten, if not more forgotten, because you know,
Joan's story has kind of permeated through time only because
of the interesting nature of exorcism. You know, we love
films like The Exorcist. We love that kind of story
because it's so interesting and it's something other than this world.
And we love horror as a nation and as a
(43:58):
group of people on the whole really, and or you know,
at least the people listening to this podcast, I presumably
like horror, and it's sort of more the real horror.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
And what I love about the play is that mel
has written.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
A horror piece, but the real horror is actually the
idea of not being safe in your own home, and
that that is a real life horror. You know, we
can talk about, we can make jokes about crazy things
happening and objects coming to life and all the wonderful
things that happen as a part of the play and
as a part of so many horror films, But at
the end of the day, the real horror is the
(44:35):
simplicity of sitting across from your intimate partner and knowing
that that person could physically harm you, or might want
to if they are under the influence of alcohol or
something goes wrong or whatever it is. So yeah, I
think that's what I hope people think about as they
walk out of the show.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
Do you think about Joan much in the creation of
this totally?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
I think I feel I hope that the show's in
memory of her, But as I said, of all women
who've died in ways like this or been harmed in
ways this. I hope that people do read about the
original case. I hope it leads more people to think
about the fact that this is based on a true story.
(45:19):
I hope it leads to that, because, you know, I
think that sometimes we can isolate ourselves from stories like
this and say, you know, oh, that would never happen here,
and that's the whole point. Like it did and it
still does in various forms.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Thanks to Margaret for helping us to tell this story.
True Crime Conversations is a Mum and mea podcast hosted
and produced by me Jemma Bath and Tarlie Blackman, with
audio design by Jacob Brown. Thanks so much for listening.
I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation
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