The Idaho Four College Murders

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
True Crime Conversations acknowledges the traditional owners of land and
waters that this podcast was recorded on. Saturday, November twelve,
twenty twenty two, is a big day in Moscow, Idaho,
a small town near the Washington state border. It's game day,
and even though the University of Idaho football team, the Vandals,
aren't exactly on a winning streak, the town still gets

(00:29):
whipped into a frenzy when they take to the field.
At eleven thirty am, Xana Kernodle, a junior at the
university studying marketing, starts to send out texts to a
friendship group, getting them jeed up for the day ahead.
She knows her childhood best e, Emily, won't make it.
She works with the football ground, so she'll already be
there helping the team behind the scenes. Xana lives at

(00:50):
eleven twenty two King Road with four roommates, Dylan, Bethany, Caylee,
and Maddie. They're a tight group living in an area
with friends all around them. Emily, who we mentioned before,
is close by, and Xanner's boyfriend Ethan Shapin has reag
year less sleepovers. By midday, the crew has assembled, including
Ethan's triplet brother, Hunter Chapin, their friends Josie Peter Lindon

(01:15):
and Hunter Johnson, Emily's boyfriend and Ethan's best mate. They
spend the next few hours drinking and moving between the
residences of the area, before Ethan and Hunter Chapin head
off to their triplet sisters formal Afterwards, they meet up
with Xana at their fraternity house party. He takes his
best mate Hunter and asks him to join them, but
he says Emily's fallen asleep after her big day working

(01:36):
at the football. By midnight, Kaylee and Maddie are partying
at a little club in town. It's always packed on
game day, but Kaylee, who has not long broken up
with her childhood sweet hut Jack, admits to Adam, the
barman and Jack's good friend, that she may have made
a mistake. Just before one thirty am, the girl's head
home via a food truck, ordering a Carbonara mac and

(01:58):
cheese to share. They text a designated sober driver to
come pick them up and they head back to King Rhode.
When they get there, Dylan's in her room recovering from
her big day of drinking. Bethany is already asleep in
her basement room. Donna and Ethan arrive back at the
house just after two am. They chat to Kaylee and
Maddie in the lound room before both head up to bed.

(02:20):
The girls hang out on the couch a little longer,
talking about Jack. They text and call him, but he
doesn't answer. They don't see the white car that's been
passing by their house again and again. As they'd all
arrived back home at three AM, Sanna's in her room
and hungry. She orders door Dash, which arrives at around four.

(02:41):
Sometime after that, Dylan is drifting in and out of
her post game day drinking sleep when she thinks she
hears one of her roommates say there's someone here. Now.
This King roadhouse is known to have frequent guests. They
host a lot of get togethers, so it's not unusual.
But the voice she heard didn't sound right, so she

(03:02):
gets up and cracks her door just a little. There's
nothing there, so she goes back to bed, but just
as she does, she hears someone crying. Is that Sanna again?
She opens the door just a fraction she hears another voice,
this one's not familiar, a man who says it's okay,

(03:22):
I'm gonna help you. There's a noise, a loud thud,
and her roommate Kaylee's dog Murphy, starts to bark, which
is very unusual for him. Dylan quickly shuts her door again,
wondering if she's going crazy. What is going on out there?
It's quiet then, so Dylan cracks her door for a
third time, and that's when she sees him, the man

(03:44):
with the bushy eyebrows. He's wearing a mask. Is he
a firefighter? He's holding something It looks like a vacuum.
They make eye contact before Dylan quickly shuts her door again,
reaching for her taser before realizing it's got no battery.
She doesn't know it then, but reaching for her taser
was the right move, even if she doesn't know what

(04:05):
exactly the man has done to the other residents of
eleven twenty two King RhoD I'm Claire Murphy and this
is True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most
notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the
most about them. When Dylan saw that man in her house,

(04:27):
she rightfully panicked. She texts Bethany in her room below
Bethany tells her to race down and join her. The
pair convinced each other that yeah, okay, it was all
a bit crazy. After all, Bethany hadn't heard a thing.
Scared and exhausted, the two girls fell asleep by the
next day, though, when the roommates upstairs still aren't answering

(04:48):
their phones, Dylan starts to freak out in earnest. Now,
she speaks to Xana's bestie Emily, who lives nearby, asking
her to please come over and help them.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Look.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Emily jokes about bringing pepper spray, but she and her
boyfriend Hunter come over to check anyway. Hunter goes inside
and heads upstairs. He sees that the daughter, Xanna's room
is slightly ajar. He pushes it open further and sees
Xanna lying on the floor. It looks like she's fallen
back face up. His best friend Ethan is lying on

(05:19):
the bed on his side facing the wall. There's so
much blood. They've been stabbed multiple times. Hunter doesn't realize
that Kaylee and Maddie have also been killed. He backs
out of the house, tells Emily not to go into
her best friend's room and to call the police. For

(05:39):
six weeks, the local police, working alongside the FBI and
state police, would unravel what happened to the Idaho Four,
leading to the arrest of twenty eight year old Brian Coburger,
a doctoral student at Washington State University studying criminology. But
while they got the who, they have never got the why.

(06:01):
Vicky Ward is the co author of the book The
Idaho Four, An American Tragedy, spending months speaking to the
people who knew not just those four innocent students, but
the men accused of killing them, piecing together all their
stories so we can better understand why. She joins us now.

(06:21):
VICKI thank you so much for joining us today. I
can't imagine the amount of man time that has gone
into piecing all of this information together. It must have
been quite a feat.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
It was a lot of time, a lot of hours
obviously spent in Moscow, where the murders happened, and in Pullman,
the ten minute drive away where Washington State University is
and where Brian Coburger lived. I mean, I think the
book is about two towns in a way, and the
relationship there. Obviously, I spent a lot of time in Idaho.

(06:56):
More broadly, This is a strange thing to say, because
this is a tragedy. This is a book about a terrible,
terrible tragedy, and it's about the worst of humanity, but
it's also about the best of humanity. It's certainly not
a book that glorifies the murderer. I hope it's called
the Idaho for it is about the victims, but it's

(07:20):
also it's meant to be emotional. You're meant to feel
like you're there in Moscow on the night of the murders.
You're meant as you're meant to feel what it was
like to be their families, what it was like to
be their friends, what it was like to be the
police chief suddenly coping with this and the glare of

(07:40):
the media, what it was like to be a local journalist.
You know, you're meant to feel involved and that, and
you're meant to understand that when something like this happens,
there is a massive ripple effect, and that the community
of Moscow is never going to be the same. There was,

(08:02):
you know, a great, great relief among all many many
people I spoke to that Brian Coburger was not from there,
He wasn't one of them. But nonetheless it has torn
that town apart. And you know, I think I quote
young student Lexi Pattinson, you know, saying, will never quite

(08:22):
be the same again.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Well, can you take us to Moscow? Because it is
a relatively small town. It's a border town essentially, but
it has a university and it is often filled with
students who are you know, well known for partying and
having a good time. But what's the general community of Moscow, like,
what's it like to be there in that town?

Speaker 2 (08:46):
So it's an incredibly picturesque small town and it's really
really small. I mean that was the thing that I
had to get used to. You know, I would stay
at the Best Western hotel and someone said to me, well,
that's a little out of time. Well, I mean it's
a five minute drive from anywhere, and you know, I
would get in my car expecting to sort of travel

(09:07):
great distances and I would be, you know, just be
two minutes from the next interview. Moscow is interesting because
it's a liberal college town. Back in the nineteen seventies,
it was kind of known as you know, it was
had a very big LGBTQ community. Now there is a

(09:29):
division in the town and that comes into play in
the book. There is a conservative church in Moscow called
Christ Church that has about four thousand members, and it
has its own school, its own university, its own cafes
and bars, it's its own bookstore, and it's very wealthy,

(09:50):
this church. It's buying up a lot of main street
and its stated mission is to evangelize the town. And
the members of the church are all very blonde and
white and preppy looking, and you know, in some ways
the community sort of likes the optics of that. But
there are things about the church that this is a
liberal town. The church is quite conservative. This has quite

(10:13):
conservative views about women. And the church also refused to
mark wear masks during COVID and so there were some arrests,
including of the grand two grandchildren of the head of
the church, and lawsuits were flying at the time of

(10:35):
the murders, and the book sort of does get into
how those simmering tensions got way worse because of the murders.
The murders were almost weaponized. It was quite helpful for
the church that the image of the police was a
little bit tarnished during the six weeks when it looked
like they couldn't find whoever had done this.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
You conducted hundreds of interviews in order to piece this
book together, and you can tell just from the detail
that you get into when you are essentially following the
four victims in their final months, and we understand so
much more about their relationships not just to each other,

(11:18):
but to their friendship and the wider university group. And
we also get to understand, as you mentioned, the police chief,
all of his employees, and the extended sort of town members,
and then the parents of the circle widens and widens
and widens. So out of these hundreds of interviews and
all those conversations that you had, what do you feel

(11:40):
were the most significant revelations that they shared with you,
regardless of where that came from, because you did speak
to so many people to pull this book together.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Well, I think I was very stunned to really understand
what it was like to be Hunter Johnson. The day
after the murders, Easan Japin's best friend, the boyfriend of

(12:11):
Xana's best friend. You know, this young couple is called
over to the house by the surviving roommates who don't
don't understand what they've seen the night before, but have
this feeling of foreboding and they walk over to the house,
not really thinking that anything that serious can have happened. Emily,

(12:33):
Zanna's best friend, when she gets the call from Dylan Mortenson,
the roommates and he says, hah, shall I bring my
pepper spray? She thinks, you know, it's not that unusual
for Dylan Mortenson to have seen something, you know, had
some crazy dream or hallucination after a big Foot partying night,
and it had been a big football game day on
the campus at the University of Idaho. But when Hunter

(12:57):
Johnson then goes into that house, goes up the stairs
and opens Xannakenodle's bedroom door, and he sees Sanna lying
on the floor and pulls of blood, and he sees
Ethan Chapin, her boyfriend lying in the bed, obviously dead.

(13:20):
He hunt, I mean, none of us know what we
would do in a situation like that, But this young
man's first reaction is to stop his girlfriend, Emily, who's
coming up the stairs behind him, from coming any further,
and to stop the others who are outside the house
from coming in. And his first instinct is to protect

(13:40):
them and make sure they do not see what he
has just seen, and then he tells them to call
nine one one and protects them from what he already knows,
which is that they're dead. He says, there's an you know,
there's an unconscious person. Tell them there's an unconscious person.
Having done that, he then goes into the kitchen, gets

(14:02):
a kitchen knife, goes back into the bedroom and opens
you know, checks the pulses of his friends, but opens
all the closet, you know, trying to see if the
murderer is still there and you know which is which
is also an extraordinary brave thing to do. And you know,

(14:24):
I got to know Hunter Johnson, and I got to
know his girlfriend, Emilia Launt very well, and you know,
they're just great kids who this horrible, horrible thing happened to.
And I think, you know, sort of really hearing the

(14:44):
story from their eyes was very revealing. You know, the
absolute confusion when they arrested Brian Coburger and they look
at Coburger's picture and they're just completely mystified as to
what on earth the connection could possibly be between their
friends and this guy. And then their bravery. You know, Emily,

(15:12):
you know, is still terrified of the dark too. You know,
Hunter Johnson, you know, didn't speak for a few days
weeks after that thing. The trauma was so immense. And
then on top of the whole thing, on the you know,
they were accused online of being the murderers. But even so,
you know, Emily refused to have you know, you can

(15:32):
get this this I rapid eye movement therapy that is
meant to help with trauma. But the damn side of
it is that if you have it and you then
testify to a jury, a judge can rule that it
can be ruled in admissible because your brain has been
effectively tampered with. So Emily refused to do it because

(15:55):
she was determined that she was going to testify against Coburger.
And now obviously I hope, actually I haven't spoken to
her in a week or two. I hope she has
gone and done it.

Speaker 1 (16:05):
There were two other people in the house the night
the four were murdered, Dylan and Beth, And for them,
I imagine there must be on top of the trauma
of losing their friends, of them being potential victims because
they were in the house at the time, and the

(16:25):
fact that one of them even saw the man in
the hallway that night, but didn't understand what was going
on and didn't piece together that that terrible thing had
happened literally in rooms just you know, mere meters away.
What's the impact being on those two And as you
mentioned too, like the online onslaught of you know, Nettison

(16:47):
Detectives was really quite terrible for them that you step
through in the book that you know, their family and
friends are trying to defend them from accusations that it's
them who are the killers at the same time as
they're trying to process this traumatic event that they've experienced.
I can't imagine where their minds have been at for
the past few years as they've tried to absorb everything

(17:09):
that's happened.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Well, you know, we've just had the sentencing this morning,
and you know, we heard from a friend of Bethany's,
we heard from both of them, from Bethany indirectly and
from you know, I thought Dylan Mortensen gave a very
powerful impact statement. And to your point, you heard in

(17:33):
a heart wrenching way, the guilt that they felt for
surviving and the you know, the awful agonizing questioning why
do I get to live? And not being able to
look at the victims' families without just feeling appalling through

(17:55):
all of this, and you know, I do, I mean,
I hope that. Actually one of the things that the
sentencing did accomplish this morning was to sort of put
all the speculation about those two to rest. I mean,
they were just their college kids who were being college kids.

(18:15):
And it was a party house. You know, the idea
that there were people going in and out late at
night not so extraordinary, and it had been, you know,
a heavy party day. Bethany funk in the basement never
saw or heard anything. And you know, you can see
if you're you know, you've been asleep, and you know,

(18:36):
and you see somebody carrying a vacuum. I mean, it
makes no sense. You would go, well, you know, I
must be hallucinating, which is exactly what Dylan Mortenson thought
she was doing. I mean again, it's also it's so human.
I mean, that's one of the reasons I wanted to
write this book because it's just it feels like we

(18:57):
can all relate to it.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Something the book also gives us some insight into is
the thinking of the police and the detectives who are
working on this case. Because it is a small town.
They're a small police force. They don't have the resources
available to them that the bigger cities would have. Not
that they're inexperienced, but they aren't that experienced with a

(19:19):
media storm that's going to follow an event like the
deaths of four young people. And so we kind of
get this understanding that they're trying to keep information quiet
so that their investigation is not hampered by all of
this publicity. But at the same time, we're in a
very different world now by twenty twenty two, and the

(19:41):
internet is going to be rife with speculation that they
then have to counteract. How do you feel the police
have actually handled this situation considering everything they had to
face in that moment.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
Well, I think they did, you know, I mean, I
think James Frye would give them ten out of ten
for actual police work and took great pride in the
fact that you had, you know, the FBI stately and
the police department working together seamlessly. There were no leaks,
nobody argued about you know, who was doing what, and

(20:14):
you know, at the end of the day they got
the right guy. But your point about the media is correct,
and you know, he was very honest about the fact
that all his years of training turned out, you know,
to be unhelpful in that you know, he'd been trained
to protect the investigation, stay silent, not tip off the

(20:36):
murderer who would be out there watching press conferences. But
in the world that we live in, into that void
comes all the speculation and sort of true crime nutter theories,
and the police then have to waste their time clearing
all sorts of people who had absolutely nothing to do
with this. And worse, actually, the victims' families also are

(20:59):
not getting enough information from the police and they start
to believe a lot of the stuff on the internet
because they and they want to get involved in it
because trying to protect the legacy of their dead children.
And there's all this crap flying around about you know,
were they in drugs, cartels? I mean all sorts of
crazy stuff. And so yeah, James Fry, the police chief,

(21:21):
learns the hard way that he has to take control
of the narrative and he has to get coaching from
the state police chief investment officer. And it's the one thing,
you know, if he had this all over again, that
he would do differently is the way he would handle
the media and he would step up straight away and
can try and control the narrative.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
There was a lot of gag orders around this case.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
Well that was very controversial.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Yeah, we must have made also writing this book very
difficult for you too.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
Right, well, and so I do want to stress actually
that you raise an important point that the police chief
did not break the gag order. What he did do
that was very generous was he gave me his time
and his insight and too understand who he is as
a person, who he is as you know, how he
led that department and what it was like emotionally for

(22:16):
him going through that experience. But what he was very
careful not to do was give me specifics about the investigation.
I mean, having now spent a lot of time with
James Wright, that that's not who he is. He's a
stand up, great guy. It did make life difficult, but
actually it also one of the things that really shocked

(22:37):
me was how in the dark the families were. I mean,
it turned out they didn't know much more than I did.
And I was kind of surprised to learn how few
rights victims' families have in this country. And meanwhile, Coburger
had all sorts of rights you know, he was a
llawd wear a suit. He was allowed to push the
trial back. He was allowed to move the trial. And
I can see why the family's points of view on

(23:01):
this diverged. Why you had, you know, three sets of
parents very well, well, two sets at the end frustrated
with the plea deal and not having the death penalty
still on the table and going through with it, and
the others fine with it.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
You're listening to true Crime Conversations with me, Claire Murphy.
I'm speaking with Vicky Ward, investigative journalist and co author
of The Idaho Four, an American tragedy, with James Patterson.
Up next, Vicky tells us about how each of the
parents of the Idaho Four found out about their children's
deaths and what followed. It's interesting to you outline in

(23:42):
the book how each of the parents of the four
victims found out that their child was even a victim,
because at the beginning, there was only this idea that
Xanna and Ethan were victims, and Kaylee and Maddie weren't
even mentioned in the beginning. And there's this accounts in
your book of these parents calling police and calling everybody
they know and trying to figure out what has happened,

(24:04):
knowing that there has been a homicide at their child's address.
They know exactly that it's happened on King Street, but
they don't get any information for a really long time.
And then Kaylee's sister even starts investigating herself and seems
to get further than police even get in the initial stages.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Well so, and I mean, I don't know if you've
seen the sentencing yet, but Olivia Gonzalvez, Kaylie's older sister,
is is a you know, powerful, impressive, very smart young woman,
and she gave a powerful, an impressive performance in court today.
And I got a note from her father telling me

(24:46):
how proud he was of her, and he's you know,
one of actually the sort of subtexts of of the book.
But you know, I've lived this A little bit is seen.
You know, one of the silver linings of this, of
this awful thing, is watching how Steve and Christy Gonzalvez
kaylee parents came. You know, I mean, they already were

(25:09):
in awe of their eldest daughter. But I mean she
really sort of in a way, is like the super
sleuth of the book. You're right, I mean, when she
hears what's happened. She's in California with her husband. She's
pregnant with her third kid. She's got two young, tiny kids.
Everyone gets into that car and her husband drives through

(25:32):
the night while she works her phones. She's got access
to Kaylie's phone records, and you know, yes, she's way
ahead of the police, talking to everyone that Kayleie and
Maddie had spoken to in their last hours. She's finding
the video of them at the grub truck the night
before getting their you know, mac Carbonara, and you so

(25:55):
you really feel it by the time when she walks
into her parents' house and she sees, you know, her
parents shocked and devastated, and she just wants to help
them and take charge. And her dismay when she discovers
that they don't even have a point person yet at
the Moscow Police Department, and she then finds it hard
to find someone to give all this information she's gathered,

(26:18):
you know, I mean, and so you understand, just from
a human point of view, how the frustration begins to build.
And you're right, you know when you say that at
the beginning, it seems like Xana an Ethan because under Johnson,
who finds them, never goes further. He doesn't go further
upstairs in the house, they wait for the police to arrive,

(26:40):
and then there's that heart sort of rending scene where
the first cop who arrives is younger than Hunter Johnson.
He's a twenty two year old, and when the police
chief discovers that the first man in is the sort
of the baby of the police force, his heart he's like,
oh my gosh, these young, young, young adults have just

(27:01):
seen something they cannot unsee.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Without a public trial to rely on. How did you
and your co author go about verifying all this anecdotal
evidence that you've collected together from all of these people
that you've spoken to, because I mean, there's a lot
of speculation involved in this. So how do you then
verify all these facts?

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Well, I think that the book is deliberately structured like
a kaleidoscope. You move, as you just said, you know,
so we move from one person's point of view to
another person's, So you know that you move when the
murders happen. You know, you have a scene from the

(27:45):
point of view of the local journalist, who's the first person.
The first journalist there that you have the point of
view of the police chief, you have the point of
view of the friends, you've just found the bodies, you
have the point of view of the fact. And then
Stacy Chapin hearing you know, she's in the supermarket when
she gets that awful call from her son Hunter, and
then you move to the living room of the gods

(28:06):
Alvis family. And so in that sense it is already
true because what I'm what we're telling you is what
it felt like to be those people. It's their experience
that's being documented. So you know, I have a scene

(28:26):
that I've been asked about, which is Emily Zanna's best friend.
She has a dream and in her dream, Coburger asks
Maddie Mogen out in the vegan restaurant in Moscow and
she's waitressing, and she turns him down, and that's the
beginning of his obsession with her. That is Emily's dream.

(28:49):
It's what she It's what when she now tries to
put it together, it's what she imagines happened. So I'm
not asserting, and nor is James Patterson. We're not asserting
that this is in fact what happened. We're just this
is what the best friends. This is their best guess

(29:11):
and that's what's in their head. So in that sense,
you know, I think that everything in the book is
couched in that way. Do I know what was exactly
in Brian Coberger's head, No, of course not. But do
I know what it was like to be stuck in
a car with him just weeks before the murder as

(29:32):
one of his classmates was, Yes, because his classmate goes
into that scene in detail, and you know what Coburger
says about women and how he can have any women
he wants, and you know, in that scene is I
think very telling.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
What surprised me when I started reading your book, and
it was very much from the perspective of the Idaho
for as we refer to them as, and you you know,
you get to understand what their campus life is like,
what their home life is like, and who they are
to each other, and you know, since the joy in
them just being young people experiencing college life and sorority life,

(30:07):
and then it feels very sudden, but you flip into
Brian Coburger's world, which is actually quite shocking. I'd really
love to get an understanding from you of what it
was like to delve into his circle to understand from
the people who knew him what he was like.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
Well, first I will tell you that where he grew
up is the most bleak, depressing place I think I've
ever been, and I've been stuck in the Arctic. There's
nothing for kids to do. It's what they call a
bedroom community. So it's sort of like the last point
in terms of distance from New York where people commute

(30:51):
either into New Jersey or New York. And so you
have a lot of kids growing up. You know, we're
basically parents gone most of the week, but there's nothing
for these kids to do. They live's very wooded that
there's not even bowling alley. I didn't see a movie theater.
There's nothing, which is a reason that drugs run rampant

(31:12):
in that part of the world. And as you know,
I spent a lot of time with the mother of
Brian Coberger's probably only real friend who sadly passed away
from a drug overdose in twenty twenty one, a guy
called Jeremy Saba, who, unlike Brian Coburger, you know, Jeremy
Sarba was popular and athletic, and until he got addicted

(31:35):
to heroin. But Connie, his mother, knew the Coburgers, knew
the family, knew Brian about as well as anyone. They
had lived next door for many years. The two kids
had been friends, and she showed me where, you know,
Brian would come through the trees to come and hang
out with Jeremy, and it was usually that way round.

(31:57):
I mean, Jeremy was the magnet. Brian, the overweight, anti social,
quiet kid who barely spoke, was the one seeking me out.
But there are scenes in the book that show Brian
Coburger very early on becoming extremely manipulative, and it also
show him breaking in to the Sabre's house and in

(32:22):
a very deliberate, calculated, cold way, you know, he phones
this woman who's been nothing but kind to him because
Jeremy's been arrested for the first time on possession of drugs,
and he says, when are you going to visit Jeremy
in prison, you know, in jail, because I'd like to
come too. So she tells him, and he uses that
window of time not to go to the jail, but

(32:44):
to break in to the Saber house and steal from her.
And you know, years later, when he's done some rehab.
He suddenly appears in her kitchen to apologize, which is
she knows is part of the rehab process. But you
see there the beginning of the sort of manipulative, cold

(33:05):
calculated guy who's ready to break the law and who's
obviously lacking an empathy. And you know, I then you know,
talked to friends of his. Well, no, no, he didn't
have friends. People who were in his class as an
undergraduate into sales. They called him the ghost because he

(33:30):
would arrive with his coffee cup, stand there for one
minute before class began, and then class would be over
and he'd leave, you know, never any social interactions. But
in those classes he was exposed to the minds of
serial killers and spree killers. I mean, that's what they
were learning. And you know, definitely his classmates remembered being

(33:53):
taught about this guy, Elliott Roger, who was a young
college student, right but anti social, was a virgin, couldn't
get laid.

Speaker 3 (34:03):
You know.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
He ends up in twenty fourteen writing a manifesto and
making a video saying I'm now going to go out
and kill all the sorority women who wouldn't sleep with me.
And he sends this video to a therapist who sends
it to his mother two minutes before he goes out
and kills sixteen people before eventually turning the gun on himself.
And this guy becomes a sort of cult hero of

(34:28):
what they call the in cell movement, you know, involuntary celibates.
So we know that Brian Coburger was exposed to all
of that. We know that he got kicked out of
a bar in Pennsylvania because he was behaving inappropriately with women,

(34:50):
and we know that by the time he got to
Washington State University, his views of women got him into
trouble and he couldn't keep those his thoughts about women
to himself, and whether it was in the classroom or
out of the class from his actions and words jeopardized

(35:11):
his teaching position there and his funding there. So by
the time of the night of the murders, he's really
got nothing to lose. He's blown, he's blown everything. What
should have been the apex of his career is now
the bottom.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
So he's basically telling people around him that women shouldn't
bother getting an education, even though he's a teaching assistant
to a professor marking their work and he's delivering these big,
long essays about how wrong they are about everything that
they've written, and he's basically telling the only other man
that he's really speaking to in that course that women
have no position being educated. They should be homemakers, and

(35:50):
men should be the ones who are in charge.

Speaker 2 (35:52):
Right, that's exactly right. And worse, he says that he
he can walk into any social gathering and get any
and have any women he wants, given that he was
an anti social guy who was not invited to social gatherings.
You know what was hard to believe for the guy
he was telling this to. I think you get a

(36:13):
sense in the book of this guy spiraling down. And
there's that terrible scene where his classmate looks at him
and you know, thinks that he's so palpably ill mentally,
physically in every way, he looks like the walking dead.
That he starts to type out this care form that

(36:33):
ought to go anonymously to the administration, who would have
pulled him in to check on him. And then this
guy deletes it because he thinks there's something about Coburger
that's so odd that if he should ever find out
who had sent this form in, there could be trouble.
For him, and you know that it's a terrible, terrible
irony because you know, a week later he goes ou
and commits the murders.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
What details did you uncover about that week in the
preparations that Coburger was making in those moments before the
actual murder? Know about his travels to Idaho University, which
was not terribly far from his own university campus. Do

(37:16):
we know what his movements and what his preparations were
like in that time?

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Well, so we know because it was in the probable
cause Effi David, that the police believed he was in
the vicinity of the King Road house twelve times between
August and the night of the murders. So I mean
the deduction is that they think he was stalking, that
he drove to Moscow twelve times and sat at the

(37:43):
back of the house, and having then having followed his
footsteps as it were, and driven the way he would
have driven, and parked my car where he would have
parked his car. You know, you do have a direct
view into what was Maddie Mogan's bedroom. I mean, that's
really the only bedroom you could see actually properly into

(38:03):
from the road and.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Just the way she's said her room up to she
was quite visible, yes, in that room to write, because
she'd kind of set up her vanity right there when
she did her makeup and.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
C exactly, never dreaming that somebody, you know, beyond the
trees in the road was looking in on her. I mean,
but you know, having said that, you know her friends
and neighbors, you know, I quote this one young woman, neighbor,
Lexi Pattinson, would you know, walk past the house and
she you know, and smiled. She would walk to her

(38:35):
car and she every night and she would see Maddie
through the window, lights blaring on, and it was a
lot you know, it was a heartwarming site to see
her putting on her makeup and culling her hair. Nobody
was thinking, you know, evil was lurking, you know, sort
of stalking her. But what do we know about I
mean what we don't know the minutia of sort of

(38:59):
like the twenty four hours before. We do know there
were reports that you know, lots of things were happening
around the same time. One was the implosion of his job. Two,
he was looking terrible. I mean, he was looking like
he hadn't slept. We know from I mean, we know

(39:21):
this is more from what Dylan Mortenson saw and the
lack of evidence that the police were able to find
that you know, he clearly had kitten himself out with
a lot of precision and care. I mean, he was
had a mask and gloves. I mean, the only mistake

(39:43):
he made was to leave the knife sheath with a
tiny speck of DNA on the snap behind. And Dylan
Mortenson that night saw him carrying what she described as
a vacuum and we just heard this morning and sentencing
that he used something else other than a knife to

(40:05):
on Katie Gunsalve is that she woke up and that
there was trauma I think to her her face, and
there was another instrument that had been used. But you know,
he covered his traces very cleverly until the lab sent back,

(40:29):
analyzed the DNA and then using this investigative genetic genealogy,
reconstructed a family tree that then pointed them in the
direction of Coburger because you know, he was the one
who lived ten minutes from the scene of the crime.
They didn't have anything to put it together because you know,

(40:50):
he was he his car. Though they could see the car,
they couldn't see the license plate because it had Pennsylvania.
He didn't have a front plate because it still had
Pennsylvania plates, so they couldn't get a clear idea of
the car. And very you know, very cleverly in week
after he went into the local DMV and changed the plates. So,

(41:12):
I mean he had thought all of this through. And
then on the night of the night when you know,
they were readying to do a dawn raid on his parents'
family home, they still didn't have his DNA. They'd gone
through the garbage, they had the dads, but Coburger. They'd
seen him with gloves, you know, carrying out the trash,

(41:32):
putting his trash in his neighbour's trash, and you know,
he knew what he was about. They didn't get to
swab him and get his DNA until they actually arrested him.

Speaker 1 (41:44):
So his studying of criminology taught him a lot about
how to pull this off, right.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Yes, unquestionably, unquestionably, And that's why this is all so
difficult because again we heard in sentencing today that you know,
the judge really issued warning to the media not to
now go out and glorify this guy because he hasn't
expressed the motive. There will be fascination as to what

(42:13):
the motive was. And the danger is that if you
give Coburger the microphone, he takes back control of the
story and you give him back all the power. It's
a very difficult question. I mean, I feel really, really,
really good about The Idaho Four because the parents of
the victims have told me that they're thrilled that the

(42:35):
book exists because it's called The Idaho Four, but it
is a tribute to their children, and it means that
we don't forget them.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
Why did you choose to release this book now rather
than wait until after maybe gag orders are lifted and
we learn more and get more detail about these things.
Why choose to do it before all of that potential information.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
So when we set out to do this, potentially the
trial was going to be that summer, we thought we
were going to be on a really we thought we
were going to be late. That was actually our worry.
We you know, we didn't control the timing of this.
We just wrote the best book we could as quickly

(43:20):
as we could. And you know, it was a complete
surprise to us, I mean, and we so we never
planned to come out before a trial. We sort of
assumed we would be coming out after it, and then
obviously this thing kept being pushed and pushed and pushed.
And there's nothing in the book that broke any you

(43:44):
know that we you know, we didn't, we didn't. No
one broke the gag order to speak to us. And
there's nothing in there that was you know, that isn't
in the public that anybody couldn't get. So what we
were planning to do was then cover the trial and

(44:05):
add extra chapters for the vaperback. And I think the
book is quite open about the fact that this is
a moving story, it's a news story, and so you know,
that's that's why, you know, it wasn't like there was
anything in the book that ought to have that would
have interfered with the course of justice.

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Next, we unpack how this trial eventually unfolded. Well, can
we talk about the trial then, because it has been
a fair roller coaster, starting from pleading not guilty to
ending up pleading guilty in the end, and there's been
a lot of conversation about what happened in between those
two please, and how the defense was planning to position

(44:51):
Coburger and who the other potential suspects they had in
mind to put forward. What's your take on how this
trial eventually unfolded.

Speaker 2 (45:01):
He wanted to avoid the death penalty, and his counsel,
you know, they must have realized it was game over.
They were out of options. I mean, yeah, you're right,
there was all this. You know, they went down the
DNA route, and they exhausted that as a defense line
of defense, you know, arguing that that should have been
in admissible, and court they talked about an alibi, but

(45:22):
there was no alibi that the credible alibi that came up.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
You know.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, there was talk of the others. Who were they?
I mean, at the end of the day, his defense
attorney's job was probably to keep him alive, which is
what she's done. What's my take on it? You know,
I totally understand why the families are divided about it.
I totally understand why the Chapims, who I know very well,

(45:49):
are like, Okay, good, he's gone. We're just getting on
with our lives. And I totally understand why the Gonzalves
family feels like it's not good enough and that they
didn't they feel that the speed at which it happened
robbed them of sort of having any ownership in this
decision that if they'd had longer to think about it,

(46:10):
you know, and the nature. I mean Bill Thompson, the prosecutor,
did try to explain I think in court why it
had to happen so fast, and he understood that the
gonz others were not happy with it and acknowledge that publicly.
I mean there are I mean, I think one of
the things the book does do is highlight there are
there are some real problems in the way that our
system of justice runs.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Did any part of this investigation for you or your
co author make you reconsider your approach to crime reporting?
I mean, this has been such a long process for
you guys, so many interviews and trying to piece together
everyone's movements and motivations. Does it make you stop and
think about approaching another crime scene again?

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Well? Yeah, but it probably my answer might might surprise
you in a way. I would do I would do
another one again, because because what's different about this is
it's really brought me closer to you know, typically in

(47:14):
a story, you have sources, right, and you build trust
with those sources, and you can have sources you know,
you know, I've been a journalist for a long time.
At this point, you know, you come back to again
and again and again in your career, at least the
people in this book. It was. What happened was so
traumatic and it was so emotional. And I went into

(47:37):
it because my kids are the same age as the victims,
and they were both in college at the same time,
and my sons are twins. Ethan Chapin was a triplet,
you know. For me, this story was much more personal.
It became much more personal than the books I normally write,
which are about corruption and power systems and things like that.

(47:59):
And in a way, because of that, I feel that
this book matters so much more. And having now co
authored a book that I feel matters, I would, you know,
in some ways, I feel that out of a tragedy,
some good we do get to now have a book

(48:20):
in which xama Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie are won't be forgotten.
And so would I do it again, Yes, I would,
because you see the worst of humanity, but you also
see the best.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Some of the book two does focus in on what
life will be like in jail for Brian Coberger, because
he has been sentenced to four life sentences without parole.
But you mentioned in the book that there would be
some kind of kudos for another prisoner if they were
to take him out. Essentially, so he's probably going to

(48:55):
exist in isolation from now until forever. Is that how
it works?

Speaker 2 (49:00):
That is a great question. I mean, you heard the
Gonzalbas family. You know that they're hoping he's absolutely not
in isolation, and then it goes in gets thoroughly messed
up on the inside. You know, it's a possibility. You know,
when people do what he's done. You know, life in
prison can be not pretty. I guess now there are

(49:22):
so many unanswered questions we wait to see.

Speaker 1 (49:25):
I think I wanted to end this conversation out of
respect for the four young people who lost their lives.
It is called the Idaho for I didn't want to
end this talking about Brian Coberger, because you're right, men
like him that we've seen, and we can include you know,
the christ Church terrorist and you know Elliot who you

(49:48):
mentioned earlier. These men who congregated initially on four Chan
and who found communities that supported them in their views
and that led them to take the lives of other people.
They should not be the spotlight at the end of
all of this. So I would love you to tell
me what you learned about Zanna and Ethan and Maddie

(50:11):
and Kaylee and the legacy that they leave behind, the
impact that they've had on their friends, and the support
that those people now find in each other.

Speaker 2 (50:22):
Well, you know, these were four beautiful young adults on
the cusp of everything, full of promise, and I think
that the book really brings alive. They're different personalities, you know.
Kaylee was the go getter, hustler, independent young woman you

(50:48):
know very much loved her childhood boyfriend, but wanted freedom,
wanted to go do stuff by herself first, and was
literally literally on the point of doing that. Had already
left the campus, was about to graduate. Maddie her best
friend and only child, that angel, you know, angel and

(51:09):
her family absolutely loved. She had found Jake, the guy
she thought she was going to be her forever person.
He'd already graduated, they were planning a life together as
soon as she graduated. She had made the best of
a bad situation when she didn't get into the same
sorority as Kaylee, and she had become, you know, the

(51:32):
curator of the Instagram feed of Pi Fi the sorority,
which was a very big deal, and so she too
was in this great place Xana. I mean the irony
of Xana's death, because here was a young woman who

(51:53):
was totally carefree, hadn't thought about the future, almost deliberately,
hadn't made any plans until she meets Ethan Chapin, falls
in love and for the first time that summer when
she goes and stays with the Chapin family and she

(52:16):
sees them all and they're playing golf and they're going
out boating and they're having a great time, and she
suddenly thinks, you know, I want I do want a future.
I want to grow old with Ethan. I you know,
she opens a bank account, she starts to save money,
she decorates her room for the first time. She shows

(52:36):
this after her best friend's mom and so, you know,
to be cut down having just made all these decisions,
I mean, the tragic, tragic timing of that. And then
you have Ethan Chapin, who.

Speaker 4 (52:54):
Was, you know, this sort of popular, loved athletic god,
the kind of guy who's a leader without trying to
be a leader, the guy.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
Everybody looks up to. But who's effortless about it, the
kind of guy who has a smile and welcomes absolutely
everybody into the room. And who you know, people described
as the male version of Xana, you know, totally charismatic,

(53:27):
the eldest of triplets, and just somebody who was everybody's rock.
I mean, he's be four great, great kids, and you know,
I hope people read the book and fall in love
with them as they deserve to be.

Speaker 1 (53:48):
Brian Coburger pleaded guilty in twenty twenty five after initially
trying to defend his innocence. He was sentenced in July
to four life sentences for the deaths of Xanna, Ethan, Kaylee,
and Maddie. He is not eligible for parole. In court,
Dylan read out her victim impact state. She said what

(54:08):
he did shattered me in places I didn't know could break.
I couldn't be alone. I had to sleep in my
mum's bed because I was too terrified to close my eyes,
terrified that if I blinked someone might be there. It's
far beyond anxiety, she admitted. It's my body reliving everything
over and over again. My nervous system never got the

(54:29):
message that it's over and it won't let me forget
what he did to them. People call me strong, they
say I'm a survivor, but they don't see what my
new reality looks like. They don't see the panic attacks,
the hypervigilance, the exhaustion of Coburger. Dylan said, he is
a hollow vessel, something less than human, a body without empathy,

(54:52):
without remorse. He chose destruction, he chose evil. He feels nothing.
He tried to take everything from me, Dylan said, my friends,
my safety, my identity, my future. When asked to explain
his motive for the senseless killing of the four young
students in court, Coburger leaned forward in his chair and

(55:14):
set into the microphone. I respectfully decline coward. Someone from
the crowd yelled him. The judge said though no story
he could tell would be believed or satisfactory. The prosecution
said it would only allow him to create his own narrative.
So while we all want to understand what would make
someone do that, maybe it's better not to try and

(55:36):
understand the mind of a killer, at least not on
his terms. Thank you to Vicky for helping us tell
this story. You can learn more about her book at
the link in our show notes. If you liked this
episode and want to hear more from guests like Vicki
about these sorts of cases, send us an email at
true Crime at mmamea dot com today. You please also
leave us a rating and review on Apples, Spotify, or

(55:57):
wherever you listen to your podcast, so let us know
what you think of the show. True Crime Conversations is
a Mumma mea podcast hosted by me Claire Murphy and
produced by Time Blackman, with audio designed by Jacob Brown.
Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week
with another True Crime Conversation. Oh hey, they're True Crime

(56:19):
listeners Claire Murphy here. One in five Australians experience a
mental health condition every year, and yet so many people
still suffer in silence. We know how powerful it can
be to open up, even just a little, so that's
why we're sharing this episode from I Never Told You This,
a series all about honest, raw conversations that remind us
we're not alone in what we're feeling. It's a powerful

(56:42):
listen and if it resonates with you, there's more waiting
over in the but are you happy? Podcast feed? This
episode is brought to you by Medibank.

Speaker 5 (56:49):
I'm a Shiny Dante host of But Are You Happy?

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Did you know that.

Speaker 5 (56:53):
One in five Australians experience and mental health condition each year,
Yet too many suffer in silence. Talking about our feelings
and experiences is one of the most powerful steps towards
healing and knowing we're not alone. That's why we're introducing
I Never told You This, a series created to spark honest,
meaningful conversations that support better mental well being. Brought to

(57:15):
you by Meddibank. I have anxiety myself. I don't even
know what to do with it.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
Do you know how to deal with it? I feel
like we don't really know how to deal with it.
We just kind of get up and just seize the day.
It doesn't matter how you're feeling.

Speaker 6 (57:27):
Soldier on two People, One big reveal, I never told
you this a simple card game where one question could
change everything.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
It starts like, what's more things brings joy?

Speaker 7 (57:37):
I'm not going to answer that.

Speaker 6 (57:39):
Then comes the moment that could shift a relationship forever.
As they finished this sentence, I never told you this.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
I've never told you They never told you this.

Speaker 6 (57:50):
Today Reality TV influences. Mother and daughter duo Mary and
Martha Califdidas will be sitting down together.

Speaker 7 (57:56):
Quite nervous, but I'm always nervous.

Speaker 6 (57:59):
Mary has something big to reveal to her daughter.

Speaker 7 (58:01):
I don't think she's expecting me to say what I'm
going to say.

Speaker 1 (58:05):
Welcome Matha.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Oh thanks for having me married. This is a bit
new for us, I know.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
Welcome.

Speaker 7 (58:11):
So today we're going to play a little game with
the Medibank family roast cards. Are you ready to play?

Speaker 3 (58:18):
Yes, let's get into this game. I think we need
a little game.

Speaker 7 (58:21):
So who picks? Maybe you go for it?

Speaker 1 (58:23):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (58:24):
Are you ready?

Speaker 3 (58:25):
Oh?

Speaker 7 (58:26):
What is the most ridiculous fashion trend you ever followed?
Those thick fa belts that were like a boob troop
and we'd wear them over the jeans. That has to
be one of the ugliest things I ever did. I'm
five foot two and that made me four foot two.
I probably told you, but you wouldn't probably listen.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
Here we go. She had to throw that one in
my face and just saying kid, just saying, all right,
so I'll pick a card. Oh what is something I
do that grosses you out? I don't think you do
anything They do not. No, that's right, good answer, Mary.

Speaker 7 (58:58):
What about me?

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Oh don't because I can say so many things.

Speaker 7 (59:02):
I bring it to the table. Cutting your cuticles, well,
that's just like meditation. If you go and.

Speaker 3 (59:07):
Get that done and then you like to do more
and just keep cutting the cuticle, it must be a
nervous It's definitely a nervous habit.

Speaker 7 (59:14):
Okay, I'll take that all right, go next? Oh is
that me? What do you think your most useless talent is?
You've got plenty of those.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
I don't think I've got any. I just time for
uselessness in our family.

Speaker 7 (59:29):
I agree.

Speaker 3 (59:29):
What about how you can you start singing every single
commercial song that's ever come on since like nineteen eighty
fifties from the Earth.

Speaker 7 (59:39):
I'm going to pick the next card. I never told
you this. When you went on reality TV. All these
comments would come in on social media. It actually affected me,
but I didn't want to show you that it was

(01:00:02):
affecting me. All these comments that were coming in, and
I'd be sta up till three four in the morning,
and I didn't realize how toxic social media can be.
I didn't know as a parent how I can comfort you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:16):
No, I can totally understand how that would have affected you.
With the trolls on the internet, they think they know me,
but you really know me, and so you were reading
things that weren't true, and then that would be just
endless cycle.

Speaker 7 (01:00:29):
Now you're a parent, and I'm sure you would probably
do the.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
Same Now that I'm a parent, I just want to
protect him from.

Speaker 7 (01:00:35):
Everything I could only imagine. And that's why I didn't
want to burden you with I've got anxiety. I can't sleep,
I was I had shortness of breath, like I was thinking, mom,
don't yeah, but that's how it was.

Speaker 3 (01:00:49):
I think to some degree I did have some idea,
because you did start acting really strange. I definitely think.
I know you were staying up really late looking at comments,
and I remember just being to you like, don't worry
about it, man, like it's fine. But I think at
the time I didn't want to show you either that
it was affecting me, so I would just say, oh

(01:01:10):
to you, like it doesn't matter, but really, like I
would be in my room staying up bringing the comments
as well. So I have anxiety myself. I don't even
know what to do with it. Do you know how
to deal with it. I feel like we don't really
know how to deal with it. We just kind of
move on with the day and just keep the day going,
but doesn't mean that the anxiety goes away.

Speaker 5 (01:01:30):
The rest of this episode of I Never told you this?
Right after the break, what's something you wish you knew
about your family? Get together and play the Medibank Family
Roast to find out. It's the card game design to
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(01:01:51):
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Speaker 7 (01:02:02):
Thinking back, I should have just been more open and
told you, like, you know what, it's normal to feel
this way because I'm feeling this way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
I think if this had done that, we probably would
have been able to, you know, commune and pack it
and then just deal with it in the open instead
of dealing with it separately in.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
Our different rooms.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:19):
But that's very That's very much what our family does,
though we're not very good at revealing, which is strange
because we're so open. That's about everything about movements and
everything because we've brought up to be like quite hard and.

Speaker 7 (01:02:34):
Like strong and tarbodic.

Speaker 1 (01:02:36):
No, you can't get over it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:37):
Get up and just seize the day. It doesn't matter
how you're feeling. Soldier on.

Speaker 7 (01:02:42):
When I was growing up, our parents were very strict.
They never showed emotion.

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
They never you know, I just find that hard to believe.

Speaker 5 (01:02:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Yeah, it is like the most softest, sweetest, gentlest, emotional,
loving caring.

Speaker 7 (01:02:54):
It wasn't when we were growing up.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
I just find it hard to believe she was strict.
Get up.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
See what old age does. It really softens you, It.

Speaker 7 (01:03:04):
Breaks you down with like searching and being like my
own little detective. I noticed that a lot of these
comments weren't coming from young kids that were just being mean.
These were from parents that had kids. How could you
try and destroy someone else's child. People want kids to

(01:03:26):
be kind, but they don't teach them the tools to
be kind and not to bring other people down. You know,
like kids are mean today. I hate that I would
learn that from somewhere. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying.
The parents are the ones that need to actually change.

Speaker 3 (01:03:41):
I kind of feel a bit sad for you. In
a way that you kind of dealt with that on
your own.

Speaker 7 (01:03:46):
That's what parents do, you know. They try to protect
I think, their kids as much as they can.

Speaker 3 (01:03:52):
You know.

Speaker 7 (01:03:55):
So if your son was dealing with anxiety, how would
you help him?

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Growing up?

Speaker 3 (01:04:01):
You always said those that matter don't mind, and those
that mind don't matter. It doesn't really matter because who
are these people to you? As long as like you know, you,
your friends, your family, the people that you care about,
the opinions of others don't really matter.

Speaker 1 (01:04:16):
That's good.

Speaker 3 (01:04:17):
At least you've got something stuck from all those years.

Speaker 7 (01:04:22):
Yeah, it's not easy being a parent.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
It's so not It's the hardest thing ever. It's so
not easy being a parent. I appreciate it. Oh, thank you, Mary.
No worries any time. Yeah, and it's nice to know
that you're human under all that. Yeah, it's nice to
know that under all there there is actually some flesh
and blood. Well done, fist pump, Oh is that something

(01:04:46):
we do still?

Speaker 5 (01:04:54):
This episode was brought to you by Medibank. Live Better
with Medibank. If this conversation brought up any strong feelings
for you, don't forget There is help out there. Please
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