March 2, 2025 • 50 mins
In August 2021, Gabby Petito went missing while on holiday with her fiancé, Brian Laundrie. The pair were six weeks into a four month trip across the United States.
They'd been living out of Gabby's specially decked out van, documenting and filming every adventure so she could share it on her growing social media platforms. But when the 22-year-old suddenly stopped posting, her family began to fear the worst.
Gabby's high-profile disappearance sparked an unprecedented social media movement to find her. An unstoppable onslaught of amateur sleuths and armchair detectives exposed a story no one was prepared to ignore, as the world hung on each development in the nationwide search for Gabby, her fiance, and the truth.
THE END BITS
Guest: Sarah Abo
You can watch the 60 Minutes coverage of this case here.
Learn more about the Gabby Petito Foundation here.
Host: Emma Gillespie
Executive Producer: Gia Moylan
Producer: Cassie Merritt
Audio Producer: Madeline Joannou
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to Amma Mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters.
This podcast was recorded on Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
It's Jemmy Here. I'm bringing back an episode re released
in twenty twenty three about the Gabby Petito case. A
new Netflix documentary series called American Murder Gabby Patito was
recently released, re examining the final days of Potito's life
and her relationship with Brian Laundry. Gabby was a twenty
two year old travel vlogger who went on a road
(00:42):
trip with her fiance Brian in twenty twenty one. She
was reported missing on September eleven, after her family lost
contact and learned that Brian had actually returned to Florida
alone with her van. Gabby's body was later found and
Brian became the main suspect. I spoke with Sarah Arbo,
now co host of Today and a Sixty Minutes reporter
(01:05):
about the case. Since our original episode aired, there have
been some key developments. In November twenty twenty three, the
Gabby Potito Act was introduced to improve law enforcement responses
to domestic violence. In December of that year, court documents
revealed Brian Laundry's parents and attorney knew about Gabby's death
(01:27):
and withheld information, and in February twenty twenty four, the
Potito and Laundry families settled a civil lawsuit, keeping the
details confidential. This case shocked the nation in twenty twenty one.
It was one of the most major news stories at
the time, and if you're watching the series, you'll be
(01:47):
interested in this story.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
This episode of True Crime Conversations discusses themes of domestic
violence and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. It's the twelfth
of August twenty twenty one in the town of moab Utah.
(02:11):
A passerby has just seen a young couple in a
fight on the side of the road. He drives past them,
but there's something disturbing about the scene he's just witnessed,
so he picks up the phone and dials nine to
one one.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
Hi, I'm calling. I'm right on the corner of Main
Street by Moonflower and we're driving by, and I'd like
to report a domestic dispute.
Speaker 6 (02:36):
What were they doing?
Speaker 5 (02:38):
We drove by him, A gentleman was slapping the girl
who was slapping her yes, and then we stopped, they
ran up and down the sidewalk. He proceeded to hit her,
popped in the car, and they drove off.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Moab Police Department respond to the incident that day, locating
the van in question near the entrance to Archers National Park.
The vehicle is owned by twenty two year old Gabby Petito,
a young woman on the holiday of a lifetime with
her fiance, Brian Laundry. The pair are six weeks into
(03:16):
a four month cross country trip of the United States
as they journey through some of the country's most beautiful
wilderness sites. They've been living in Gabby's specially decked out
van with dreams of becoming a travel influencer. She's been documenting, filming,
and posting about every adventure they've shared so far.
Speaker 7 (03:38):
Me and brain scat up and got ready. Me in
the bed in the tent. I think our plan for
today is to just hang out here in the tent.
All the chocolate mountains.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Chocolate.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
You can't keep chocolate in Utah, not in July.
Speaker 8 (04:02):
That is.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
But the police call tells a different story to the
one of joy and wonderlust On's YouTube and Instagram On
that August day in Utah, police discover a young woman
in distress, cheeks pink from being grabbed and slapped. She's crying,
almost to the point of hyperventilation. The twenty two year
(04:28):
old makes excuses as she downplays what's happened between her
and Brian. She places the blame on herself.
Speaker 9 (04:36):
Is there something on your cheek here? Did you get
hit in the face?
Speaker 7 (04:40):
Then over on your arm?
Speaker 9 (04:42):
Your shoulder?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So there's two.
Speaker 9 (04:45):
People that came to us and told us that they
saw him hit you. Where'd you hit him? I sat
he slapped him first and saw his face? How many
times did you slap?
Speaker 8 (05:01):
Did he hit you?
Speaker 9 (05:02):
Though? I mean, we want to know the truth to
be actually hit you, because you guess where did he
hit you?
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Brian Laundry is interviewed on the roadside separately. He jokes
around with police charms them into believing there's no danger here,
convincing them that Gabby, his much shorter, narrow framed girlfriend,
is the real aggressor in this situation.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
You might lifting up your right sleep for me.
Speaker 9 (05:29):
I'm curious mess on, but I'm not complaining. I'm not
a plan that is it a cruised or tender or.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Anything like that.
Speaker 8 (05:36):
I'm fine, Gabby Potito is exhibiting what the whole world
would come to see as the chillingly obvious red flags.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Of a victim of domestic violence, signs that were sadly
missed by the responding officers. They do little to intervene
that day, and after a night apart, Gabby and Brian
continue on their travels. But less than a month after
the incident in Moab, Gabby's family begin to fear the worst.
(06:09):
By the time she's missing, Gabby Petito is already dead.
I'm Emma Gillespie and this is True Crime Conversations a
Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by
(06:29):
speaking to the people who know the most about them.
In twenty twenty one, Gabby Petito became a household name.
It was her lifelong wish, but the circumstances surrounding her
notoriety were a far cry from the hopes and dreams
of a budding YouTuber. After Gabby and her van vanished
(06:50):
mid cross country trip, her high profile disappearance sparked an
unprecedented social media movement to find her, an unstoppable onslaught
of amateur sleuths and armchair detectives exposed a story no
one was prepared to ignore. As the world hung on
each development in the nationwide search for Gabby, her fiance,
(07:15):
and the truth. Our guest Today, co host of Channel
nine's The Today Show and journalist Sarah Arbo covered this
case extensively for sixty minutes. She spoke to investigators, criminal profilers,
and exclusively interviewed Gabby's parents. Sarah joins me, today, I
(07:37):
want to start with Gabby. You've spoken at length with
her parents. What was she like? How do they describe
the kind of person she was?
Speaker 6 (07:46):
Yeah, it was such an incredible honor and privilege to
be able to interview her parents. She's from a beautiful,
blended family and they are so harmonious.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So her parents split when she was quite young.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
They had her quite young, Nicole her mother, Joseph her father,
and have since repartnered and sort of had their separate relationships,
but maintained a really close relationship as a family, and
so speaking to each of them to get their insight,
and even from her stepparents as well. To them, Gabby
was just sort of the light of their lives. I
think her mum described her as a spitfire, like just
(08:17):
had a real energy or real zestful life. Her dad
Joe would often talk about how, you know, even in
those early days, like as a child, she was always
bringing people along for the journey. She wanted everyone to
experience the best of life. She was adventurous, she was
always daring, She was always the one up for the challenge,
and she would always encourage people to come along with her.
So from all accounts, according to her family, at least
(08:39):
that you know, she was a really generous soul and
somebody who just enjoyed life and the beauty that's on offer.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
How did she meet Brian Laundry? How did he come
into her life?
Speaker 6 (08:50):
Yeah, so her and Brian went to school together actually,
so they knew each other as teenagers and then I
think they were friends that had similar friendship group. But
it wasn't until later in life or just after leaving
school in twenty nineteen, when they became a couple. And
I think because probably they had that sort of friendship history,
their relationship escalated. I mean in twenty nineteen, that's not
so long ago, right, And so then they engaged pretty
(09:11):
quickly and then set off on this road trip together.
So again speaking with her parents about their take on
Brian and what he was like, and particularly in the
early stages of their relationship. I mean, her parents were
just like, you know, he seemed fine, He seemed normal,
He was always nice. So yeah, for them, there didn't
seem to be any sign of anything more sinister in
that relationship or from him at all. They just described
(09:33):
him as kind of a nice guy.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
What do we know about their relationship in the lead
up to taking this big trip?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Was it the people.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Around them, as you say, were happy for them that
he just sort of seemed like a good fit for her.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
I mean, from all accounts, they were sort of both
interested in the same sorts of things, and they were
both interested in the outdoors. In adventuring this trip itself
was quite collaborative. Joe helped Gabby along to purchase the van,
but then Brian and Gabby pretty much put it together.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Really.
Speaker 6 (10:01):
They decked out the van according to what they would
need for a road trip like this to live in comfort.
So they were both really invested in the journey, and
I think for them it was an opportunity a lifetime
to sort of quit their jobs and take to the world,
and it was around the time, you know, the pandemic
was sort of bubbling around too, So it was sort
of that escape from that mundane reality of lockdown, I guess.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
And what was their presence on social media at that time?
What did the world see online of the Gabby Brian
love story.
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Yeah, it was a very curated feed that the public
got of Gabby and Bryan's life, that's for sure. I
think Gabby always had an interest in creating a YouTube channel,
in creating a website. I don't know if we call
the blogs anymore. Let's feel so outdated, doesn't it. But
she was so keen on documenting their van life hashtag
van life, which is a big thing, particularly in the US.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
Hello, hello, and good morning. It is really nice and
sunny today.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
And so for her, this trip was an opportunity to
really bring the public along the ride with them, and
so she was documenting all the travels, all the experiences,
and what life was like, you know, living out of
a van. Some of the videos or as mundane as
having you know, her muslin in the morning and the
chocolate melting in it. You know, there's segments of that
that we've seen and then obviously there's that incident when
(11:18):
she's in the tent and it starts raining and she's
got to hold her up with her hands.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You know. So there's all these little snippets of life
on the road.
Speaker 7 (11:28):
Can is coming in on we need settle Cane.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
While that's how we got an initial taste of them,
it wasn't really until that bodycam footage that we got
perhaps some more accurate picture of what life was like
for them on the road.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
How serious was Gabby about using this trip, you know,
not just as the adventure of a lifetime, but as
content creation, as an opportunity to sort of build this
brand that she was hoping to make a career of,
And was that at odds with what Brian thought she
was capable of.
Speaker 6 (12:04):
The interesting part about that is, I think it was
both definitely, So it was as much about the adventure
as it was about curating this feed and trying to
launch herself perhaps as a travel influencer or an influencer
full stop. I think that's an element of it. I
mean we say that so often in today's world, right,
so many people have been able to make careers out
of that. I think she was trying to ride that wave.
There is also that element of actually being quite hard work.
(12:26):
You know, it's not just a matter of taking a
photo and posting it. You know, you've got to apply
a filter, you've got to put the backing track music
to it, You've got to perhaps narrate it, whatever else
you want to add to it to really give it
that high production value that's worthy of a YouTube, that's
worthy of.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
The clicks that you're looking for.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
But one sign I think we got kind of early
on that perhaps it was more difficult than either she
was expecting it to be, or maybe that it caused
a bit of a rift in their relationship was in
that body camera footage we saw Gabby say to one
of the officers who was interviewing her, he doesn't think
I can do it, referring to Brian about her website.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
Trying to strowing a blog at the even building my
websites in real persons, they did do any of it,
I don't know's.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (13:16):
We've been waiting long morning and tom Men has gone down.
Speaker 9 (13:20):
Yes, I become gos.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
And he really is.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
I mean, she was in such a hyper emotional state
at that point, and that's obviously something that was really
weighing on her and perhaps contributed to the dysfunction in
their relationship with that particular point, but I think it
was really heard just wanting this dream of creating a
YouTube channel and being a success online, and perhaps him
not believing in her the way that a supportive partner should.
So I think that was a bit of a fracture
(13:48):
there that we saw.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I want to talk about that moment a little bit more.
Speaker 7 (13:52):
So.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
We were six weeks into this trip and cracks begin
to appear. It starts with a bystander witnessing a fight.
What can you tell me about that call to police?
What was learned about that run in in Utah?
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Yeah, so it did, as you really point out, start
off that nine one one call. I think it was
a gentleman who called nine one one and he had
noticed I think the transcript is something along the lines
of he slapped her and there was surprise on the
end of the receiver from the nine one one call,
and so off the back of that, the local police
were alerted and so they were on the lookout for them.
So that was the first sign that we got that
(14:29):
things weren't quite right. You know that perhaps this picture
perfect relationship that they were presenting to the world was
actually just a fabrication, you know, This wasn't the reality
that they were actually living. And so that nine one
one call spurred into action the police that led them
to the interrogation I guess by the police onto Brian
(14:49):
and Gabby separately trying to understand the picture. So that
was the first sign we saw that there may have
been domestic or family violence involved in the relationship.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Coercive control is this idea that is being spoken about
a lot more and more in the media now, something
we're becoming more comfortable with understanding talking about how did
it present in that moment potentially between Gabby and Brian.
I know you've spoken to experts and psychologists about that moment.
Speaker 6 (15:18):
Yeah, we spoke to Laura Richards for our sixty minutes
piece and she's read hot on all this sort of stuff.
She's sort of a criminologist, but she specializes too in
the area of family violence. And for her, watching back
the footage captured on the bodycam of the offices, it
was for her as clear as black and white, you
know that it was a classic example of coersive control.
(15:39):
And she went so far as to say that it
was the officers who greenlit Brian's behavior. Essentially, when you're
watching it, you can kind of see that it's Gabby
who's in this.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You know.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
It's quite awful to watch actually, because she is so emotional.
She's at her wits end. She's absolutely exhausted mentally, and
I think it's a sign that this had been running
for some time and that she had reached almost breaking
point at the time the police had pulled them over.
And what you kind of get from that bodycam footage
is the way coursive control manifested there was that she
(16:11):
was very defensive of him, you know, and she was like, oh, no,
I hit him first, or no, we love each other
and can you please tell him I said I love
him and by because the police had separated them at
that point, so she was doing whatever she could to
defend him, and he wasn't necessarily doing that. He was
sort of pushing back a little bit on that, trying
to be a bit more matey with the officers. And
the example of cous of control is in the fact
(16:33):
that we know the nine one call had been made
that there was some kind of violence between the couple,
and then the next day you see her trying to
defend him as if nothing had happened and that it
was all her fault and that she'd brought it upon herself.
It's sort of subtle, but we are becoming more aware
of it, and for those who recognize that, it was
pretty obvious in that body cam footage.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Yeah, as you mentioned, she is really distressed in that footage.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
The officer decides that Gabby is.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Not at risk, refers to it as a little slap fight,
and ultimately a decision is made that Brian is the
victim in the situation.
Speaker 9 (17:07):
You haven't a been striking her, she has that event
her the witness did not see you striker. So at
this point you're the victim of an elastic assault. Even
if you pay, even if you didn't want to pursue this,
we don't have a choice.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
How significant was that decision, that interaction, that moment. Is
that a missed opportunity to save Gabby's life?
Speaker 6 (17:28):
I think it's been widely viewed as a missed opportunity. Yes,
because even if they did see Gabby as the aggressor,
which is how it landed for them, that's how they
interpreted it. They separated them for the evening, right, so
they put Brian in a hotel room and Gabby slept
in the van alone.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I mean, even that in itself is kind of staggering.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
A hotel room that, if I remember correctly, was paid
for by a taxpayer funded program for victims of DV
that's right.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
And they drove him there, you know, in the comfany,
and that's part of the body cam footage towards the
end as well. They're having this jovial chat in the
backseat as if nothing had happened. He gets to have
a nice warm shower while she's stuck in the van again.
And so I think the interpretation from the cops was wrong,
but it's sort of you can almost see them trying
to d sclate the situation. You know, there's a point
in there where while I'm sitting in the car and
he calls a superior and he says, you know, as
(18:15):
you rightly point out, this is just a slap fight
between a couple who otherwise love each other. So there
was a sort of missed opportunity then recognizing that this
may have been a bit more than that, and it
ultimately was more than that if at that point they
had separated them properly, if they had reported them, even
if it was wrong, and they reported Gabby at the
very least despite them getting the aggressor wrong, there still
(18:38):
would have been a report and they would have been
separated for a longer period. It would have gone to
a lower court, and it would have been handled, you know,
according to the statute of that US state. And so
the issue then becomes why didn't they get referred. They
wanted to de escalate it. They thought the officers thought
they were doing the right thing by not dragging the
couple through that process. But ultimately if they had, then
we may have had a very different outcome and Gabby
(19:00):
could still be alive today. What that incident also raised
when the officers pulled them over, that also raised a
lot of questions about the training of officers and how
well equipped they are to deal with domestic violence. Now
we know in Utah they had received quite a bit
of training, and so it was perhaps an error in
interpretation of that. And I guess that on a broader scale,
you know, you take Gabby and Brian out of the mix.
It's something that we can all learn from, is really
(19:20):
understanding domestic violence in all its different nuances and contexts,
and especially when it comes to course of control, because
something like that can be so subliminal, it can be
such an undercurrent in a relationship that isn't necessarily recognized.
So I think it's something that in hindsight, that officers
and law enforcement generally across the US and the world
will be more aware of. And if that's at least
(19:41):
a single lesson we can take away from this, then
I know for sure that the Potato family would be
greatly relieved if that was a lesson.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
There was a couple a short time later who crossed
paths with Gabby and Brian, and you've spoken to them.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
What did they tell you?
Speaker 6 (19:57):
Yeah, it's interesting because we spoke to them and that
were likely, we suspect, the last people to see Gabby alive.
So that was at a restaurant, a Mexican restaurant in Wyoming,
and they noticed a sort of of an unhappy couple,
you know. I think the way it was described was
that Gabby was at her wits end. So that was
Matt and Nina and they Nina in particular said that
(20:19):
to her it seemed as though Gabby was emotionally overwhelmed,
and I feel like that's the Gabby that we saw
in the bodycam footage. So it kind of marries up
with Nina's interpretation of what she witnessed in the restaurant
that night. And if you think about that, it is
alarming that despite what they'd experienced, they weren't able to
kind of put the challenges they were facing as a
(20:40):
couple aside, and it escalated the way it did. So
the fact that the public is noticing that there was
a rift between them also tells us a lot about
the relationship in the state of mind that they were
at that time.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
We know Gabby had a really close relationship with her mum, Nicole.
She was in regular contact with her every day or
every other day. When did Nicole begin to worry about
Gabby and her safety?
Speaker 6 (21:05):
Yeah, so Nicole had been in regular contact with Gabby.
So that's not to say good day And let's not
forget that. Obviously, traveling in Van, you're always going to
have reception right or mobile phone coverage, so it wasn't
unusual to perhaps on hear each other for a day
or two. It wasn't until it got to about six
days that Nicole had not heard from Gabby and had
been monitoring her social media or noticed that there weren't
any posts or anything.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
That she became a bit worried.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
And that's when she reached out initially to the Laundry
family to find out, you know, whether they'd heard from
Brian and Gabby, whether they were okay, you know, whether
she could just dismiss it as them kind of you know,
on this adventure without reception, and that's all there was
to it. But she never heard back from the Laundries.
They never responded to her, and so I think it
got to about ten days and she became gravely concerned then.
(21:48):
And that's when the missing person's report was filed for Gabby.
And you know, you think about it and you go, yeah,
of course they're traveling the country. They're likely to dip
in and out of reception. It's not something to be
so alarmed about it. Because that was so close, she
knew that something was a miss and that this was
unlike her daughter.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
And when that missing person's report was made by Gabby's
mum at that point was her concern or assumption that
both Gabby and Brian may be.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Missing that was certainly one of her concerns. Yeah, and
I think because they didn't hear back from the laundries anything, really,
they didn't know whether Brian himself was missing. But also
it's not necessarily their duty to report them both missing.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
They hadn't heard from Gabby.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Gabby's their daughter, therefore Gabby's missing, And I think for
them there was that initial concern, of course about the
welfare of each of them, but it pretty quickly became
clear that actually Brian was okay.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It was just Gabby there wasn't you.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Say Brian was okay.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
We know that because he drove home to his parents'
house in Florida.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
What do we know about that time? What did he
tell his parents?
Speaker 6 (22:50):
Yeah, you know, that's where this story really takes a
weird turn, because you would think that as her fiance,
Brian would be the most concerned about her welfare and
if she hadn't been heard from for six days or
ten days, however long it was, that he would be
the first to raise the alarm. But actually he maintained
absolute silence, deafening silence, according to the family, and they
(23:13):
could not get any information, not out of Brian, not
out of his parents. The laundry is basically hunkered down.
You couldn't get a word out of them. You couldn't
get any information out of them, and that to me
just doesn't make sense. You know. I was for the
sixty minute stories we did. We interviewed Brian Anton, who
was one of the reporters. In fact, he covered it
as extensively as any reporters covered any story. You know,
he was so thorough in his reporting, and he was
(23:34):
sort of saying that that was really unusual, and that
was really weird because it's as her fiance, Like I said,
it's the person you think would have all the answers,
and for him to duck and weave it was bizarre.
So yeah, there was nothing from him and the police.
This is an interesting quirk too, because there was no
evidence that a crime had occurred. The police didn't have
anything to go on. They couldn't charge anyone with anything,
(23:56):
They couldn't compel anyone to be interviewed. Brian was exercising
his constitutional right in Utah to not speak to police.
He didn't have to speak to police. They couldn't compel
him to speak to them, so they couldn't interview him
about her whereabouts. They could't interview him about it. What
they did do, bizarrely, was set up security cameras in
the neighbor's yards to try and capture any footage of
(24:17):
him kind of coming and going.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
And that's where you see this awful situation.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
Where I mean, it's hard to interpret it as anything
other than them dropping the ball. Basically, they had the
camera set up, Brian left the house, He walked out
of the house, got into a car, and drove away,
never to be seen again. And they mistook him for
his mother. They thought that was his mother leaving the house,
when actually it was Brian. So he basically slipped through
their fingers and the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
It's hard to wrap our heads around this part of.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
The case, especially that he drove home a very long
way in Gabby's van, so I think that's important too.
That he arrives at his parents' house, he's completely silent.
He has Gabby's van, So, based on what we can
interpret at that time, not only is Gabby missing, but
she's also essentially homeless.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
If she is safe, she.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Doesn't have the home that she's had for the last
two few months. In terms of law enforcement and their
options at the time. Why weren't they able to question
Brian at least about the van.
Speaker 6 (25:21):
Well, I think it's because the way they put it
was that there was no evidence of a crime. So
I suppose if they were concerned that he'd stolen the
van and that could be deemed a crime, but that
wasn't a concern of theirs initially. It doesn't make much sense,
does it. I mean, even for me now, I still
scratch my head and wonder why they wouldn't just talk
to him. He was exercising his constitutional writers, I understand it.
(25:42):
He didn't have to speak to them, and so it's
bizarre to me that they can't compel him to speak
in any way. But also his parents didn't speak, and
that to me is also really concerning the fact that
your son would come home without his fiancee and then
not speak about her or perhaps speak about her, we
don't know, and for them to remain silent. The only
way that we knew that something was amiss was when
(26:04):
Nicole Gabby's mother hurt that the Laundries had hired a lawyer,
and so for her, she was like, hang on a minute,
this makes no sense at all. Why would they need
a lawyer, what the hell has happened here? And so
that's when we see all this movement around them filing
the missing person's report, all this stuff about getting in
the public eye, and I mean, as we know, as
soon as that was in the public eye, it absolutely
(26:26):
had a life of its own, and it took off
with armchair detectives left, right and center of the world
over really breaking down this case, diving into all her
social media posts. They'd created their own timelines based on
the color of her hair and whether her roots had
grown out, what she was wearing. It was quite extraordinary.
So there were all these armchair detectives in the place
(26:47):
of actual detective work because there was very little the
cops could do at that time.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
How would you describe that time, especially given that role
of social media. Had we ever seen anything like that before.
Speaker 6 (26:59):
I'd never seen anything like that before. It's interesting because
the age we live in, social media is just a
part of our life, you know. In this case, it
was mainly TikTok, but whether it's TikTok or Twitter or
Instagram or snapchat, whatever social media platform you choose, it
was incredible to see how many people really jumped on board.
I mean, there was like the hashtag Gabby Patito, and
if you hit that, you would down a rabbit hole
(27:21):
of various different takes on what happened to her, where
she was, what had happened to Brian, and breakdown in
their relationship, their social media posts, the police body camera footage.
So you know, in a way, there was actually an
abundance of information out there for everyone to kind of
jump on and dissect. But in terms of the way
that had galvanized the online population, I'd never seen anything
(27:41):
like that before, and it just goes to show you
the power of social media and the power of this
sort of online community. I mean, obviously a lot of
it was hot air, and people had their random takes.
I mean, some of it was quite ridiculous. A lot
of it was quite obs theory. Yeah, all these conspiracy theories,
and I mean, I don't know how much of that
actually assists police. In fact, probably makes their job harder
because then there's all this misinformation out there as well, right,
(28:02):
and so people are claiming that they've cited Gabby or
they've cited Brian. I think at one point this poor
man was photographed and everyone thought it was Brian, and
then he was just like jumped on and it wasn't Brian.
It was like, man, I'm just this bloke, you know.
So it can be dangerous, right if it's not done
with care. But then there was an example of it
actually providing a breakthrough in the case. And we interviewed
(28:22):
the Bathoons, who were also like a sort of a
van life family, Kyle and Jen and their kids. So
they travel around the country as well in a van
and for them that's just their life, that's what they do,
and they document their life.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
They also have a YouTube page.
Speaker 6 (28:37):
They also have a website where they share with the
world their experiences on the road. And so Jen was
sort of detailing to us when I spoke to her
the moment they realized that they captured footage of Gabby's van.
They were trawling through their vision, going this kind of
fits the time frame that we were in Wyoming at
the same time as them. Let's just look back at
(28:58):
the vision we've captured to see on the off chance
that we may have captured something. Long and behold, they
go through some of their vision and just off to
the side left a frame is a white van and
not a few hundred meters away from that was where
Gabby's body was ultimately found, So that piece of information
was pivotal for police. They obviously immediately passed that on
(29:20):
and then the search began around that area and that's
when Gabby's body was found. So despite all the crap
that was online, all the misinformation, there was that one
little piece of evidence that was useful ultimately to police
and to this case.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
And did that mean police were able to also place
Brian at that location at that time given that he
was the one that then drove that van away from
that location.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
You know, I don't know about the whereabouts of the
van after that, So I think for the police it
was just placing Gabby and Brian. Certainly Gabby at a
particular location at a particular point in time. Whether or
not that helped them in their case to find Brian,
I couldn't really say with much authority, but I think
for them it was at that point all about finding Gabby,
because don't forget, she was still missing then and so
(30:09):
there was no sign of her, so for them that
was their priority.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Emma Gillespie,
I'm speaking with Today's show co host and Sixty Minutes
contributor Sarah Arbo about the disappearance of Gabby Petito. As
you've said, this case absolutely erupted on social media at
(30:36):
the time. Gabby did have a bit of a following
of her own by the time she went missing. But
why is it do you think this case blew up
in the way that it did, you know, not just
in the US, but all around the world.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
I mean, I think when Gabby set out to create
her online presence through YouTube and through social media, I
think the objective was to bring people along for the ride,
you know, to enjoy this journey with her. What that
then turned into when she disappeared was a window into
her life. It was a curated life, we know, you know,
this was an idea existence that beyond the surface, was
(31:12):
actually anything but her real life. And I think what
the public was able to gather from that was an
insight into her as a person, what made her tick.
And so I think because of the vast material that
was on the public record of Gabby and of Brian,
that in itself was what the public jumped on.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
There's sort of like a parasocial relationship that's occurred here
where we feel like we know her maybe so and
more emotionally invested in her story because you can scroll
through her Instagram and see or get a sense of
who she is.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (31:49):
I mean, I think there was a recognition there that
she was just like one of us. You know, she
was out there enjoying life, a young woman in her prime,
and so the posts that she'd put out there, it
was like a window into her life and it was
something that we could relate to, and so I think
for a lot of the online community that was something
that they seized and that was something that made them feel, yeah,
a sort of connection with Gabby that they felt like
(32:09):
they knew her little bit and she was this warm, bubbly,
engaging person and so automatically she kind of makes you
feel happy watching her, which I think was one of
her main objectives really in life, and so that came
through in what she was posting. And so because of that,
people felt like could relate to her, they felt like
they knew her, and they felt like perhaps that gave
them a greater ownership of her story and of the
(32:31):
case and an involvement in trying to well. Ultimately, actually,
I feel like it was perhaps an investment that the
public had in solving this case because they felt like
they maybe knew Gabby. Because there is this narrative about
why did the public jump on Gabby Petito's case versus
any other missing person's case, And I think it's because
of the access that the public had to her, what
(32:51):
she'd put out there. You know, you look at any
other missing person's case and perhaps the same kind of
information about them in their life doesn't exist. And so
this was a woman who they felt like they could
relate to, and somebody who they felt like they perhaps
may be friends with, you know, and knew, and so
therefore wanted to really invest in her story.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
What was it like for Gabby's parents, obviously living this
nightmare of their little girl being missing, Brian not participating
in providing information, and then being missing himself, how did
it impact them to see the way the global community
responded to Gabby's story.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
That's a big one, right, because you don't expect that. Well,
first of all, you don't expect that you're going to
be the victims of crime, and then if you are,
you don't expect it to make global headlines the way
it did. And you know, they'd done a little bit
of media obviously, they'd gotten on the front foot with
press conferences and they'd released images of Gabby in the
hope that somebody would have answers out there. But to
see the reach that it had, I mean, even for
them being interviewed by sixty minutes Australia was like, wow,
(33:53):
the interest is so broad. In a way, it was helpful,
and they were absolutely appreciative of the efforts that the
public had made to try and find their little girl.
And in a strange, kind of bittersweet way, for them too,
it was like they were able to share this beautiful
child of their who'd grown into this young, vivacious woman
(34:13):
with the world. The world had an insight into their
girl who they adored, and so for them there was
a little bit of comfort in that. But I think
it also absolutely blew them away. They weren't expecting that.
I think they were completely overwhelmed by it, as you
would be.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You know, it does.
Speaker 6 (34:29):
It's so weird, right, It's so bizarre that in this
day and age that something like that would take on
a life of its own.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And I've sort of heard it said.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
The bittersweet irony I guess of Gabby's footage and content
and hard work and everything she posted on YouTube and Instagram,
you know, eventually getting the views that she would have
dreamed of and the follow account she would have aspired to.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
That's right.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
Yeah, what she achieved in death was something she was
longing for in life, and there is something kind of
heartbreaking about that. But for her family, it sort of
represents that she did touch people's lives and that she
did have a bit of an impact, and I think
they've been spurred on by that and that's encouraged them
to really keep her spirit alive.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And the ultimate message here about the rest of the.
Speaker 6 (35:12):
Global community helping locate other missing persons, you know, I
think and this was really interesting and beautiful. When I
was speaking to Joe, Gabby's father, he was like, I
wish that the world would get behind other missing people
the way they got behind Gabby. I wish that they
would help us find the hundreds of thousands of missing
people in the world that exist right now. I wish
that this would shine a light on them and their
ap plight and help their families find answers, because you know,
(35:35):
on any given day there are people missing there are
people who we will never find, and if only we
were as a global community more attuned to that in
the way we were for the Gabby Petito case. I
think he was yearning for something like that, and I
think he's hopeful that perhaps Gabby's case does lend itself
to create greater awareness for missing people and also for
(35:57):
domestic violence more broadly.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
So we've got two wide scale national searches happening on
different sides of the US at the same time. I
want to go back to that breakthrough when things come
to a head in the search for Gabby Petito. What
can you tell me about the steps that were taken
after that van was cited? Police are notified what was discovered.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
Yes, it was on the nineteenth of December, three hundred
meters from where the Berthune family had spotted Gabby's van.
The police found her body. So it was about three
months after she'd been killed that her body was found,
and so they obviously had to identify the body. The
remains weren't necessarily identifiable immediately, and once it had gone
to the coroner, they determined that it was a homicide
(36:46):
and that Gabby had died by strangulation, and so they
were on the hunt for her killer.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
They only ever had.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
One suspect and that was Brian Laundry, but they didn't
have enough evidence to pin him down. So after finding
her body, there was a warrant issued for his arrest,
but it wasn't for her murder. It was for fraud.
So he was wanted by police for actually using Gabby's
bank cards and withdrawing money. So the chart was knowingly
and with intent defrauding using one or more unauthorized access devices,
(37:16):
namely a Capital One Bank debit card and personal identification numbers.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
So that was what actually.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
They wanted him on and so that's when they ramped
up the search for Brian. And so this case took
another turn and I put this to Nicole and she
was like, you know what, He's not missing. He disappeared
like he ran away, and so they were calling him
a coward for not fronting up to his actions. And
even then it was Brian's parents who reported him missing,
but weren't divulging much information beyond that, and then the
(37:45):
search began for Brian, and then Brian's father was involved
in that search, so Chris went out looking for him.
At the Carlton Reserve, and it wasn't until Chris became
involved that then they found Brian's body.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I remember this time personally being interested in this case
and following it in the media and reporting on it,
and it felt so hard to keep up with that.
There were so many moving parts. We had these months
of not knowing what had happened to this beautiful young woman.
Why wasn't her fiance saying something? Then the tragedy of
her body being discovered, Then the added mystery of the man,
(38:23):
you know, the court of public opinion had decided, had
taken her life. How did Gabby's family navigate that time
in terms of the intense media interest, you know, plus
the social media interest, alongside the heartbreaking ordeal that they
were facing.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
Yeah, it was absolutely heartbreaking for them, Utterly earth shattering.
I mean, the emotion and the devastation was written all
over their faces when we interviewed them, and it was
just something that's hard to hide.
Speaker 7 (38:57):
I just hope that she didn't suffer and that she
wasn't in any.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Pain, just hoping that as that more.
Speaker 7 (39:07):
That she was in a place that she wanted to be,
looking at the mountains.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
It's something you never think is gonna you see.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
It, You never ever think it's going to be yours.
It's just a surreal for them.
Speaker 6 (39:24):
It was all about raising awareness of missing people, of
domestic violence, of wanting justice.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
It sort of goes back to that point we were
discussing earlier.
Speaker 6 (39:34):
It goes back to this notion that there's some comfort
in the fact that the world is interested in their
little girl and trying to help solve the mystery of.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
What happened to her.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
So I think they've found comfort, strangely in that as
a way of navigating through their pain, their grief, the
awful reality of what had happened to their daughter.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
And they made a point of saying that no parents.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
Should ever have to bury their child, regardless of how
old that child is, regardless of the circumstances of their death.
In this case, it was murder, so there was malicious
intent behind that, and for them that was something that
they really struggled to come to two with. It was
heartbreaking talking to them, and at the end of the day,
this was a family that had lost the beautiful little
(40:17):
girl who they adored.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Brian was finally found dead, As you mentioned, his father
providing police with a location that he suspected Brian may
have visited. What are the circumstances around the discovery of
Brian's remains.
Speaker 6 (40:34):
Yeah, well, essentially they found skeletal remains and so they
had to identify that it was Brian, I think through Well,
obviously they can do that, you know, scientifically, but then
also the possessions that were with him when they found
the remains. That was really telling because some of the
items they found with him, which we can get to,
was obviously the journal and what he'd written in his journal.
(40:54):
But ultimately they found skeletal remains and a gunshot wound
to the head. So that was how they determined that
it was a self inflicted gun wound that he died
by suicide. When you look at his journal entries, you
understand that he was a man who was up steely,
tormented by what had happened. He admitted to killing Gabby.
(41:17):
He admitted to ending Gabby's life and called it a
merciful murder. I mean, what is that? Yeah, right, it's outrageous.
And when you read it, he was sort of describing
how he interpreted her emotional pain as something that couldn't
be overcome. And that he was almost doing this in
a way to save her from what she was experiencing
(41:37):
and what she was going through. There's no way of
justifying his behavior, but that's how he tried to justify
it himself. I suppose really those journal entries finally provided
the answers that everyone was looking for. Who killed Gabby,
why was she killed, how was she killed? And then
what happened to Brian.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
But it seemed even with Brian, you know, in death,
in his final moments, he takes his own life that
you know, we can read into that that it was
all too much for him to bear. Through those diary entries,
it's as though he's not even able to fully own
what really happened because he tells this weird story about
(42:18):
Gabby being in pain. As you've mentioned, how did that
confession or sort of lack thereof, How did that tell
us what sort of a person Brian Laundry really was
or what sort of relationship he really had with Gabby.
Speaker 6 (42:34):
When we talk about coercive control, as we're discussed, it's
sort of one of those things where it's quite a
controlling relationship, and so I think ultimately this comes full circle.
He had the ultimate control in this relationship. He ended
her life in his own words, you know, he ended
her life and then he took his own life. So
at every juncture he was in control. It speaks obviously
(42:57):
to a mind that's not thinking clearly. I mean, I
think it's a safe bet that he would have been
having some of his own mental demons. You know, this
is a relationship that's been described as toxic, as dysfunctional.
The fact they weren't able to see through that is
a tragedyness. They were very young, obviously, and it tells
us I think that this relationship was an example of
course of control in the most fatal, catastrophic way. You know,
(43:21):
not only did Brian kill his fiance, somebody who's supposed
to love more than anyone else in the world, he
then killed himself. So there's obviously a sense there of
instability and somebody who couldn't see past that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I think in Brian.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Brian's parents, Chris and Roberta never really spoke out even
after Brian's death, did they ever face any legal ramifications.
I just feel like in Australia, if you had someone
who facilitated this suspect in an investigation, and you didn't
provide information to police that there would be outrage in
(43:59):
the community. We can't hold Brian to account. He's dead,
But is there that sense of anger towards Brian's parents
to this day?
Speaker 6 (44:09):
Do you think the whole thing with the laundries was
their deafening silence throughout this They really didn't cooperate with police.
They really didn't cooperate with the Potito family right up
until the very end. And the main way that the
Potito family was able to seek justice was through the courts.
In this case, it was an emotional distress case and
(44:29):
were awarded three million dollars, And so I think for
them that was really about righting or wrong and the
fact that they'd been robbed of their daughter, that she
had been murdered by Brian. He was also now dead,
so he can't be punished for that crime. And so
this case, this emotional distress case, was a way for
them to seek justice, the only way really for them
to seek justice.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
But what they're also trying.
Speaker 6 (44:51):
To achieve with this case is to ensure that it
never happens again. In the sense that the law enforcement
officers who were supposed to protect Gabby should have perhaps
been better trained or should have perhaps better recognized the
red flags, and so I think for them now, a
main objective is that they ensure that the right kind
(45:12):
of training is received by the officers on the ground
who were dealing with family violence, whether it's you know,
actually physical violence or more of that coursive control, which
is harder to detect, but with increased awareness shouldn't be
as difficult to detect.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
We have heard in recent months that Gabby's parents are
planning on suing those police officers in Utah who we discussed.
You know, they pulled Gabby and Brian over, they'd sent
them on their way, and two weeks later we know
Gabby was dead. Do you think that they have something
to answer for? Is there more to it that will
be revealed?
Speaker 6 (45:49):
I think it does come down to training, you know,
It's one of those things. I mean, it's hard to
know if this was another couple, if they'd pulled them
over and treated it the same way, whether the outcome
would have been different or the same. As we said earlier,
I think if they had acted differently, and if they
had followed the protocol and put it through the court system,
I mean, there's every chance that the broader community, perhaps
(46:10):
even the Potito family, if not the Laundry family as well,
would have been awakened to the coercive, controlling nature of
their relationship of Brian asserting that kind of control over
Gabby's life. If we'd been awakened to that earlier, then
we would have perhaps been able to prevent her death.
And so I think that's one of the objectives of
perhaps pursuing the police in this way and really ensuring
(46:33):
that this doesn't happen again, that we know better next time,
that the police are able to combat something like this better,
and that they're able to handle it, and even just
for their own peace of mind, I mean for the officers.
I mean, so we had the two primary officers involved,
and then there was another couple, a woman and a
man I think, who were really distressed by what had
happened and then were blaming themselves for the outcome. They
(46:55):
weren't really involved in it at all, but just as
sort of having witnessed it off to the side, to
the peripheral. For them, it was such an enormous impact
on their own mental well being that they felt this,
And so I think it's about preventing that from happening.
For everyone involved, whether it's the victims, or whether it's
those dishing out the advice or the warnings or responsible
for the protocol being followed through, I think it's for
(47:17):
everyone's peace of mind that the right action is taken.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Gabby's dad, Joe told you this is a story that
needs to be heard. Does that tie into all of
this understanding of an awareness around abusive relationships violent relationships?
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (47:34):
I mean his main goal right now is to raise
as much awareness about domestic violence, about abusive relationships as
he can, in concert with raising the awareness of missing
persons cases generally. You know, when I spoke to him
the first time, because we spoke a number of times
over the course of the stories that we did for
sixty minutes, but the very first time I spoke to
him is like, you know what, Sarah, There's every chance
that you know somebody out there who is a victim
(47:57):
of some kind of coercive control, emotional abuse, domestic violence,
but you don't know about it. There's a chance that
you've got a friend out there who perhaps has a
partner who is exhibiting this kind of behavior, but you
don't know about it because that don't want to speak
about it. And we know that that's an issue in Australia.
You know, the amount of women that are being killed
every year in this country on a weekly basis because
(48:19):
of domestic violence, you know, killed by somebody they know,
whether it's a spouse or a family member. I mean,
it's something that needs to be addressed, and I think
Joe recognizes that and is so hyper aware of it,
and so for him, telling Gabby's story hopefully informs the
public that it's not okay to be in a relationship
like this, that we need to address domestic violence in
(48:41):
all its forms to stop these kinds of deaths that
ultimately are preventable because if they're addressed early, we don't
need to see people lose their lives.
Speaker 4 (48:50):
Is that activism? How Gabby's family are reckoning with her death?
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Do you think?
Speaker 4 (48:56):
How are they moving on with their lives, finding peace,
honoring her legacy?
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (49:01):
So they've set up the Gabby Patito Foundation, and for them,
the aim of that is to raise awareness about domestic violence,
to raise awareness about missing persons, and I think for
them it's also about improving outreach programs so that anyone
who is a victim of domestic violence has somewhere to
turn and so that they don't feel alone. I think
(49:21):
that's a big part of it. You know, this idea
that you don't have anywhere to or you feel like
you've got no where to turn. I mean, we know
that the hardest part of any domestic violence relationship for
a woman is to get out.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
That's the hardest part.
Speaker 6 (49:33):
Being able to find time, to actually establish a separate life,
to be able to find a new home to go to.
All that sort of stuff is impossible when you're in
the midst of it. And so I think for him
and for the Potito family broadly, that Gabby Patito Foundation
stands as a bit of a safe place for people
to turn when they're looking for that assistance if they're
in a domestic violence situation.
Speaker 4 (49:59):
Thanks to Sarah for assisting us to tell Gabby's story.
If you'd like to watch Sarah's coverage of this case
for sixty minutes, there's a link in the episode description.
True Crime Conversations is Amma mea podcast hosted by me
Emma Gillespie, and if you have a case you think
we should cover next, get in touch with us. You
can send an email to true Crime at mamamea dot
(50:21):
com dot au.
You're listening to Amma Mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mama Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters.
This podcast was recorded on Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
It's Jemmy Here. I'm bringing back an episode re released
in twenty twenty three about the Gabby Petito case. A
new Netflix documentary series called American Murder Gabby Patito was
recently released, re examining the final days of Potito's life
and her relationship with Brian Laundry. Gabby was a twenty
two year old travel vlogger who went on a road
(00:42):
trip with her fiance Brian in twenty twenty one. She
was reported missing on September eleven, after her family lost
contact and learned that Brian had actually returned to Florida
alone with her van. Gabby's body was later found and
Brian became the main suspect. I spoke with Sarah Arbo,
now co host of Today and a Sixty Minutes reporter
(01:05):
about the case. Since our original episode aired, there have
been some key developments. In November twenty twenty three, the
Gabby Potito Act was introduced to improve law enforcement responses
to domestic violence. In December of that year, court documents
revealed Brian Laundry's parents and attorney knew about Gabby's death
(01:27):
and withheld information, and in February twenty twenty four, the
Potito and Laundry families settled a civil lawsuit, keeping the
details confidential. This case shocked the nation in twenty twenty one.
It was one of the most major news stories at
the time, and if you're watching the series, you'll be
(01:47):
interested in this story.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
This episode of True Crime Conversations discusses themes of domestic
violence and suicide. Listener discretion is advised. It's the twelfth
of August twenty twenty one in the town of moab Utah.
(02:11):
A passerby has just seen a young couple in a
fight on the side of the road. He drives past them,
but there's something disturbing about the scene he's just witnessed,
so he picks up the phone and dials nine to
one one.
Speaker 5 (02:27):
Hi, I'm calling. I'm right on the corner of Main
Street by Moonflower and we're driving by, and I'd like
to report a domestic dispute.
Speaker 6 (02:36):
What were they doing?
Speaker 5 (02:38):
We drove by him, A gentleman was slapping the girl
who was slapping her yes, and then we stopped, they
ran up and down the sidewalk. He proceeded to hit her,
popped in the car, and they drove off.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Moab Police Department respond to the incident that day, locating
the van in question near the entrance to Archers National Park.
The vehicle is owned by twenty two year old Gabby Petito,
a young woman on the holiday of a lifetime with
her fiance, Brian Laundry. The pair are six weeks into
(03:16):
a four month cross country trip of the United States
as they journey through some of the country's most beautiful
wilderness sites. They've been living in Gabby's specially decked out
van with dreams of becoming a travel influencer. She's been documenting, filming,
and posting about every adventure they've shared so far.
Speaker 7 (03:38):
Me and brain scat up and got ready. Me in
the bed in the tent. I think our plan for
today is to just hang out here in the tent.
All the chocolate mountains.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Chocolate.
Speaker 7 (03:55):
You can't keep chocolate in Utah, not in July.
Speaker 8 (04:02):
That is.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
But the police call tells a different story to the
one of joy and wonderlust On's YouTube and Instagram On
that August day in Utah, police discover a young woman
in distress, cheeks pink from being grabbed and slapped. She's crying,
almost to the point of hyperventilation. The twenty two year
(04:28):
old makes excuses as she downplays what's happened between her
and Brian. She places the blame on herself.
Speaker 9 (04:36):
Is there something on your cheek here? Did you get
hit in the face?
Speaker 7 (04:40):
Then over on your arm?
Speaker 9 (04:42):
Your shoulder?
Speaker 2 (04:45):
So there's two.
Speaker 9 (04:45):
People that came to us and told us that they
saw him hit you. Where'd you hit him? I sat
he slapped him first and saw his face? How many
times did you slap?
Speaker 8 (05:01):
Did he hit you?
Speaker 9 (05:02):
Though? I mean, we want to know the truth to
be actually hit you, because you guess where did he
hit you?
Speaker 4 (05:10):
Brian Laundry is interviewed on the roadside separately. He jokes
around with police charms them into believing there's no danger here,
convincing them that Gabby, his much shorter, narrow framed girlfriend,
is the real aggressor in this situation.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
You might lifting up your right sleep for me.
Speaker 9 (05:29):
I'm curious mess on, but I'm not complaining. I'm not
a plan that is it a cruised or tender or.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Anything like that.
Speaker 8 (05:36):
I'm fine, Gabby Potito is exhibiting what the whole world
would come to see as the chillingly obvious red flags.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Of a victim of domestic violence, signs that were sadly
missed by the responding officers. They do little to intervene
that day, and after a night apart, Gabby and Brian
continue on their travels. But less than a month after
the incident in Moab, Gabby's family begin to fear the worst.
(06:09):
By the time she's missing, Gabby Petito is already dead.
I'm Emma Gillespie and this is True Crime Conversations a
Muma mea podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by
(06:29):
speaking to the people who know the most about them.
In twenty twenty one, Gabby Petito became a household name.
It was her lifelong wish, but the circumstances surrounding her
notoriety were a far cry from the hopes and dreams
of a budding YouTuber. After Gabby and her van vanished
(06:50):
mid cross country trip, her high profile disappearance sparked an
unprecedented social media movement to find her, an unstoppable onslaught
of amateur sleuths and armchair detectives exposed a story no
one was prepared to ignore. As the world hung on
each development in the nationwide search for Gabby, her fiance,
(07:15):
and the truth. Our guest Today, co host of Channel
nine's The Today Show and journalist Sarah Arbo covered this
case extensively for sixty minutes. She spoke to investigators, criminal profilers,
and exclusively interviewed Gabby's parents. Sarah joins me, today, I
(07:37):
want to start with Gabby. You've spoken at length with
her parents. What was she like? How do they describe
the kind of person she was?
Speaker 6 (07:46):
Yeah, it was such an incredible honor and privilege to
be able to interview her parents. She's from a beautiful,
blended family and they are so harmonious.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So her parents split when she was quite young.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
They had her quite young, Nicole her mother, Joseph her father,
and have since repartnered and sort of had their separate relationships,
but maintained a really close relationship as a family, and
so speaking to each of them to get their insight,
and even from her stepparents as well. To them, Gabby
was just sort of the light of their lives. I
think her mum described her as a spitfire, like just
(08:17):
had a real energy or real zestful life. Her dad
Joe would often talk about how, you know, even in
those early days, like as a child, she was always
bringing people along for the journey. She wanted everyone to
experience the best of life. She was adventurous, she was
always daring, She was always the one up for the challenge,
and she would always encourage people to come along with her.
So from all accounts, according to her family, at least
(08:39):
that you know, she was a really generous soul and
somebody who just enjoyed life and the beauty that's on offer.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
How did she meet Brian Laundry? How did he come
into her life?
Speaker 6 (08:50):
Yeah, so her and Brian went to school together actually,
so they knew each other as teenagers and then I
think they were friends that had similar friendship group. But
it wasn't until later in life or just after leaving
school in twenty nineteen, when they became a couple. And
I think because probably they had that sort of friendship history,
their relationship escalated. I mean in twenty nineteen, that's not
so long ago, right, And so then they engaged pretty
(09:11):
quickly and then set off on this road trip together.
So again speaking with her parents about their take on
Brian and what he was like, and particularly in the
early stages of their relationship. I mean, her parents were
just like, you know, he seemed fine, He seemed normal,
He was always nice. So yeah, for them, there didn't
seem to be any sign of anything more sinister in
that relationship or from him at all. They just described
(09:33):
him as kind of a nice guy.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
What do we know about their relationship in the lead
up to taking this big trip?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Was it the people.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
Around them, as you say, were happy for them that
he just sort of seemed like a good fit for her.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 6 (09:46):
I mean, from all accounts, they were sort of both
interested in the same sorts of things, and they were
both interested in the outdoors. In adventuring this trip itself
was quite collaborative. Joe helped Gabby along to purchase the van,
but then Brian and Gabby pretty much put it together.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Really.
Speaker 6 (10:01):
They decked out the van according to what they would
need for a road trip like this to live in comfort.
So they were both really invested in the journey, and
I think for them it was an opportunity a lifetime
to sort of quit their jobs and take to the world,
and it was around the time, you know, the pandemic
was sort of bubbling around too, So it was sort
of that escape from that mundane reality of lockdown, I guess.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
And what was their presence on social media at that time?
What did the world see online of the Gabby Brian
love story.
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Yeah, it was a very curated feed that the public
got of Gabby and Bryan's life, that's for sure. I
think Gabby always had an interest in creating a YouTube channel,
in creating a website. I don't know if we call
the blogs anymore. Let's feel so outdated, doesn't it. But
she was so keen on documenting their van life hashtag
van life, which is a big thing, particularly in the US.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
Hello, hello, and good morning. It is really nice and
sunny today.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
And so for her, this trip was an opportunity to
really bring the public along the ride with them, and
so she was documenting all the travels, all the experiences,
and what life was like, you know, living out of
a van. Some of the videos or as mundane as
having you know, her muslin in the morning and the
chocolate melting in it. You know, there's segments of that
that we've seen and then obviously there's that incident when
(11:18):
she's in the tent and it starts raining and she's
got to hold her up with her hands.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
You know. So there's all these little snippets of life
on the road.
Speaker 7 (11:28):
Can is coming in on we need settle Cane.
Speaker 6 (11:35):
While that's how we got an initial taste of them,
it wasn't really until that bodycam footage that we got
perhaps some more accurate picture of what life was like
for them on the road.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
How serious was Gabby about using this trip, you know,
not just as the adventure of a lifetime, but as
content creation, as an opportunity to sort of build this
brand that she was hoping to make a career of,
And was that at odds with what Brian thought she
was capable of.
Speaker 6 (12:04):
The interesting part about that is, I think it was
both definitely, So it was as much about the adventure
as it was about curating this feed and trying to
launch herself perhaps as a travel influencer or an influencer
full stop. I think that's an element of it. I
mean we say that so often in today's world, right,
so many people have been able to make careers out
of that. I think she was trying to ride that wave.
There is also that element of actually being quite hard work.
(12:26):
You know, it's not just a matter of taking a
photo and posting it. You know, you've got to apply
a filter, you've got to put the backing track music
to it, You've got to perhaps narrate it, whatever else
you want to add to it to really give it
that high production value that's worthy of a YouTube, that's
worthy of.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
The clicks that you're looking for.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
But one sign I think we got kind of early
on that perhaps it was more difficult than either she
was expecting it to be, or maybe that it caused
a bit of a rift in their relationship was in
that body camera footage we saw Gabby say to one
of the officers who was interviewing her, he doesn't think
I can do it, referring to Brian about her website.
Speaker 7 (13:01):
Trying to strowing a blog at the even building my
websites in real persons, they did do any of it,
I don't know's.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (13:16):
We've been waiting long morning and tom Men has gone down.
Speaker 9 (13:20):
Yes, I become gos.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
And he really is.
Speaker 6 (13:27):
I mean, she was in such a hyper emotional state
at that point, and that's obviously something that was really
weighing on her and perhaps contributed to the dysfunction in
their relationship with that particular point, but I think it
was really heard just wanting this dream of creating a
YouTube channel and being a success online, and perhaps him
not believing in her the way that a supportive partner should.
So I think that was a bit of a fracture
(13:48):
there that we saw.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I want to talk about that moment a little bit more.
Speaker 7 (13:52):
So.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
We were six weeks into this trip and cracks begin
to appear. It starts with a bystander witnessing a fight.
What can you tell me about that call to police?
What was learned about that run in in Utah?
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Yeah, so it did, as you really point out, start
off that nine one one call. I think it was
a gentleman who called nine one one and he had
noticed I think the transcript is something along the lines
of he slapped her and there was surprise on the
end of the receiver from the nine one one call,
and so off the back of that, the local police
were alerted and so they were on the lookout for them.
So that was the first sign that we got that
(14:29):
things weren't quite right. You know that perhaps this picture
perfect relationship that they were presenting to the world was
actually just a fabrication, you know, This wasn't the reality
that they were actually living. And so that nine one
one call spurred into action the police that led them
to the interrogation I guess by the police onto Brian
(14:49):
and Gabby separately trying to understand the picture. So that
was the first sign we saw that there may have
been domestic or family violence involved in the relationship.
Speaker 4 (14:59):
Coercive control is this idea that is being spoken about
a lot more and more in the media now, something
we're becoming more comfortable with understanding talking about how did
it present in that moment potentially between Gabby and Brian.
I know you've spoken to experts and psychologists about that moment.
Speaker 6 (15:18):
Yeah, we spoke to Laura Richards for our sixty minutes
piece and she's read hot on all this sort of stuff.
She's sort of a criminologist, but she specializes too in
the area of family violence. And for her, watching back
the footage captured on the bodycam of the offices, it
was for her as clear as black and white, you
know that it was a classic example of coersive control.
(15:39):
And she went so far as to say that it
was the officers who greenlit Brian's behavior. Essentially, when you're
watching it, you can kind of see that it's Gabby
who's in this.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
You know.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
It's quite awful to watch actually, because she is so emotional.
She's at her wits end. She's absolutely exhausted mentally, and
I think it's a sign that this had been running
for some time and that she had reached almost breaking
point at the time the police had pulled them over.
And what you kind of get from that bodycam footage
is the way coursive control manifested there was that she
(16:11):
was very defensive of him, you know, and she was like, oh, no,
I hit him first, or no, we love each other
and can you please tell him I said I love
him and by because the police had separated them at
that point, so she was doing whatever she could to
defend him, and he wasn't necessarily doing that. He was
sort of pushing back a little bit on that, trying
to be a bit more matey with the officers. And
the example of cous of control is in the fact
(16:33):
that we know the nine one call had been made
that there was some kind of violence between the couple,
and then the next day you see her trying to
defend him as if nothing had happened and that it
was all her fault and that she'd brought it upon herself.
It's sort of subtle, but we are becoming more aware
of it, and for those who recognize that, it was
pretty obvious in that body cam footage.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Yeah, as you mentioned, she is really distressed in that footage.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
The officer decides that Gabby is.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Not at risk, refers to it as a little slap fight,
and ultimately a decision is made that Brian is the
victim in the situation.
Speaker 9 (17:07):
You haven't a been striking her, she has that event
her the witness did not see you striker. So at
this point you're the victim of an elastic assault. Even
if you pay, even if you didn't want to pursue this,
we don't have a choice.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
How significant was that decision, that interaction, that moment. Is
that a missed opportunity to save Gabby's life?
Speaker 6 (17:28):
I think it's been widely viewed as a missed opportunity. Yes,
because even if they did see Gabby as the aggressor,
which is how it landed for them, that's how they
interpreted it. They separated them for the evening, right, so
they put Brian in a hotel room and Gabby slept
in the van alone.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I mean, even that in itself is kind of staggering.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
A hotel room that, if I remember correctly, was paid
for by a taxpayer funded program for victims of DV
that's right.
Speaker 6 (17:55):
And they drove him there, you know, in the comfany,
and that's part of the body cam footage towards the
end as well. They're having this jovial chat in the
backseat as if nothing had happened. He gets to have
a nice warm shower while she's stuck in the van again.
And so I think the interpretation from the cops was wrong,
but it's sort of you can almost see them trying
to d sclate the situation. You know, there's a point
in there where while I'm sitting in the car and
he calls a superior and he says, you know, as
(18:15):
you rightly point out, this is just a slap fight
between a couple who otherwise love each other. So there
was a sort of missed opportunity then recognizing that this
may have been a bit more than that, and it
ultimately was more than that if at that point they
had separated them properly, if they had reported them, even
if it was wrong, and they reported Gabby at the
very least despite them getting the aggressor wrong, there still
(18:38):
would have been a report and they would have been
separated for a longer period. It would have gone to
a lower court, and it would have been handled, you know,
according to the statute of that US state. And so
the issue then becomes why didn't they get referred. They
wanted to de escalate it. They thought the officers thought
they were doing the right thing by not dragging the
couple through that process. But ultimately if they had, then
we may have had a very different outcome and Gabby
(19:00):
could still be alive today. What that incident also raised
when the officers pulled them over, that also raised a
lot of questions about the training of officers and how
well equipped they are to deal with domestic violence. Now
we know in Utah they had received quite a bit
of training, and so it was perhaps an error in
interpretation of that. And I guess that on a broader scale,
you know, you take Gabby and Brian out of the mix.
It's something that we can all learn from, is really
(19:20):
understanding domestic violence in all its different nuances and contexts,
and especially when it comes to course of control, because
something like that can be so subliminal, it can be
such an undercurrent in a relationship that isn't necessarily recognized.
So I think it's something that in hindsight, that officers
and law enforcement generally across the US and the world
will be more aware of. And if that's at least
(19:41):
a single lesson we can take away from this, then
I know for sure that the Potato family would be
greatly relieved if that was a lesson.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
There was a couple a short time later who crossed
paths with Gabby and Brian, and you've spoken to them.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
What did they tell you?
Speaker 6 (19:57):
Yeah, it's interesting because we spoke to them and that
were likely, we suspect, the last people to see Gabby alive.
So that was at a restaurant, a Mexican restaurant in Wyoming,
and they noticed a sort of of an unhappy couple,
you know. I think the way it was described was
that Gabby was at her wits end. So that was
Matt and Nina and they Nina in particular said that
(20:19):
to her it seemed as though Gabby was emotionally overwhelmed,
and I feel like that's the Gabby that we saw
in the bodycam footage. So it kind of marries up
with Nina's interpretation of what she witnessed in the restaurant
that night. And if you think about that, it is
alarming that despite what they'd experienced, they weren't able to
kind of put the challenges they were facing as a
(20:40):
couple aside, and it escalated the way it did. So
the fact that the public is noticing that there was
a rift between them also tells us a lot about
the relationship in the state of mind that they were
at that time.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
We know Gabby had a really close relationship with her mum, Nicole.
She was in regular contact with her every day or
every other day. When did Nicole begin to worry about
Gabby and her safety?
Speaker 6 (21:05):
Yeah, so Nicole had been in regular contact with Gabby.
So that's not to say good day And let's not
forget that. Obviously, traveling in Van, you're always going to
have reception right or mobile phone coverage, so it wasn't
unusual to perhaps on hear each other for a day
or two. It wasn't until it got to about six
days that Nicole had not heard from Gabby and had
been monitoring her social media or noticed that there weren't
any posts or anything.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
That she became a bit worried.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
And that's when she reached out initially to the Laundry
family to find out, you know, whether they'd heard from
Brian and Gabby, whether they were okay, you know, whether
she could just dismiss it as them kind of you know,
on this adventure without reception, and that's all there was
to it. But she never heard back from the Laundries.
They never responded to her, and so I think it
got to about ten days and she became gravely concerned then.
(21:48):
And that's when the missing person's report was filed for Gabby.
And you know, you think about it and you go, yeah,
of course they're traveling the country. They're likely to dip
in and out of reception. It's not something to be
so alarmed about it. Because that was so close, she
knew that something was a miss and that this was
unlike her daughter.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
And when that missing person's report was made by Gabby's
mum at that point was her concern or assumption that
both Gabby and Brian may be.
Speaker 6 (22:12):
Missing that was certainly one of her concerns. Yeah, and
I think because they didn't hear back from the laundries anything, really,
they didn't know whether Brian himself was missing. But also
it's not necessarily their duty to report them both missing.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
They hadn't heard from Gabby.
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Gabby's their daughter, therefore Gabby's missing, And I think for
them there was that initial concern, of course about the
welfare of each of them, but it pretty quickly became
clear that actually Brian was okay.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It was just Gabby there wasn't you.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Say Brian was okay.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
We know that because he drove home to his parents'
house in Florida.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
What do we know about that time? What did he
tell his parents?
Speaker 6 (22:50):
Yeah, you know, that's where this story really takes a
weird turn, because you would think that as her fiance,
Brian would be the most concerned about her welfare and
if she hadn't been heard from for six days or
ten days, however long it was, that he would be
the first to raise the alarm. But actually he maintained
absolute silence, deafening silence, according to the family, and they
(23:13):
could not get any information, not out of Brian, not
out of his parents. The laundry is basically hunkered down.
You couldn't get a word out of them. You couldn't
get any information out of them, and that to me
just doesn't make sense. You know. I was for the
sixty minute stories we did. We interviewed Brian Anton, who
was one of the reporters. In fact, he covered it
as extensively as any reporters covered any story. You know,
he was so thorough in his reporting, and he was
(23:34):
sort of saying that that was really unusual, and that
was really weird because it's as her fiance, Like I said,
it's the person you think would have all the answers,
and for him to duck and weave it was bizarre.
So yeah, there was nothing from him and the police.
This is an interesting quirk too, because there was no
evidence that a crime had occurred. The police didn't have
anything to go on. They couldn't charge anyone with anything,
(23:56):
They couldn't compel anyone to be interviewed. Brian was exercising
his constitutional right in Utah to not speak to police.
He didn't have to speak to police. They couldn't compel
him to speak to them, so they couldn't interview him
about her whereabouts. They could't interview him about it. What
they did do, bizarrely, was set up security cameras in
the neighbor's yards to try and capture any footage of
(24:17):
him kind of coming and going.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
And that's where you see this awful situation.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
Where I mean, it's hard to interpret it as anything
other than them dropping the ball. Basically, they had the
camera set up, Brian left the house, He walked out
of the house, got into a car, and drove away,
never to be seen again. And they mistook him for
his mother. They thought that was his mother leaving the house,
when actually it was Brian. So he basically slipped through
their fingers and the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
It's hard to wrap our heads around this part of.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
The case, especially that he drove home a very long
way in Gabby's van, so I think that's important too.
That he arrives at his parents' house, he's completely silent.
He has Gabby's van, So, based on what we can
interpret at that time, not only is Gabby missing, but
she's also essentially homeless.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
If she is safe, she.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
Doesn't have the home that she's had for the last
two few months. In terms of law enforcement and their
options at the time. Why weren't they able to question
Brian at least about the van.
Speaker 6 (25:21):
Well, I think it's because the way they put it
was that there was no evidence of a crime. So
I suppose if they were concerned that he'd stolen the
van and that could be deemed a crime, but that
wasn't a concern of theirs initially. It doesn't make much sense,
does it. I mean, even for me now, I still
scratch my head and wonder why they wouldn't just talk
to him. He was exercising his constitutional writers, I understand it.
(25:42):
He didn't have to speak to them, and so it's
bizarre to me that they can't compel him to speak
in any way. But also his parents didn't speak, and
that to me is also really concerning the fact that
your son would come home without his fiancee and then
not speak about her or perhaps speak about her, we
don't know, and for them to remain silent. The only
way that we knew that something was amiss was when
(26:04):
Nicole Gabby's mother hurt that the Laundries had hired a lawyer,
and so for her, she was like, hang on a minute,
this makes no sense at all. Why would they need
a lawyer, what the hell has happened here? And so
that's when we see all this movement around them filing
the missing person's report, all this stuff about getting in
the public eye, and I mean, as we know, as
soon as that was in the public eye, it absolutely
(26:26):
had a life of its own, and it took off
with armchair detectives left, right and center of the world
over really breaking down this case, diving into all her
social media posts. They'd created their own timelines based on
the color of her hair and whether her roots had
grown out, what she was wearing. It was quite extraordinary.
So there were all these armchair detectives in the place
(26:47):
of actual detective work because there was very little the
cops could do at that time.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
How would you describe that time, especially given that role
of social media. Had we ever seen anything like that before.
Speaker 6 (26:59):
I'd never seen anything like that before. It's interesting because
the age we live in, social media is just a
part of our life, you know. In this case, it
was mainly TikTok, but whether it's TikTok or Twitter or
Instagram or snapchat, whatever social media platform you choose, it
was incredible to see how many people really jumped on board.
I mean, there was like the hashtag Gabby Patito, and
if you hit that, you would down a rabbit hole
(27:21):
of various different takes on what happened to her, where
she was, what had happened to Brian, and breakdown in
their relationship, their social media posts, the police body camera footage.
So you know, in a way, there was actually an
abundance of information out there for everyone to kind of
jump on and dissect. But in terms of the way
that had galvanized the online population, I'd never seen anything
(27:41):
like that before, and it just goes to show you
the power of social media and the power of this
sort of online community. I mean, obviously a lot of
it was hot air, and people had their random takes.
I mean, some of it was quite ridiculous. A lot
of it was quite obs theory. Yeah, all these conspiracy theories,
and I mean, I don't know how much of that
actually assists police. In fact, probably makes their job harder
because then there's all this misinformation out there as well, right,
(28:02):
and so people are claiming that they've cited Gabby or
they've cited Brian. I think at one point this poor
man was photographed and everyone thought it was Brian, and
then he was just like jumped on and it wasn't Brian.
It was like, man, I'm just this bloke, you know.
So it can be dangerous, right if it's not done
with care. But then there was an example of it
actually providing a breakthrough in the case. And we interviewed
(28:22):
the Bathoons, who were also like a sort of a
van life family, Kyle and Jen and their kids. So
they travel around the country as well in a van
and for them that's just their life, that's what they do,
and they document their life.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
They also have a YouTube page.
Speaker 6 (28:37):
They also have a website where they share with the
world their experiences on the road. And so Jen was
sort of detailing to us when I spoke to her
the moment they realized that they captured footage of Gabby's van.
They were trawling through their vision, going this kind of
fits the time frame that we were in Wyoming at
the same time as them. Let's just look back at
(28:58):
the vision we've captured to see on the off chance
that we may have captured something. Long and behold, they
go through some of their vision and just off to
the side left a frame is a white van and
not a few hundred meters away from that was where
Gabby's body was ultimately found, So that piece of information
was pivotal for police. They obviously immediately passed that on
(29:20):
and then the search began around that area and that's
when Gabby's body was found. So despite all the crap
that was online, all the misinformation, there was that one
little piece of evidence that was useful ultimately to police
and to this case.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
And did that mean police were able to also place
Brian at that location at that time given that he
was the one that then drove that van away from
that location.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
You know, I don't know about the whereabouts of the
van after that, So I think for the police it
was just placing Gabby and Brian. Certainly Gabby at a
particular location at a particular point in time. Whether or
not that helped them in their case to find Brian,
I couldn't really say with much authority, but I think
for them it was at that point all about finding Gabby,
because don't forget, she was still missing then and so
(30:09):
there was no sign of her, so for them that
was their priority.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
You're listening to true crime conversations with me, Emma Gillespie,
I'm speaking with Today's show co host and Sixty Minutes
contributor Sarah Arbo about the disappearance of Gabby Petito. As
you've said, this case absolutely erupted on social media at
(30:36):
the time. Gabby did have a bit of a following
of her own by the time she went missing. But
why is it do you think this case blew up
in the way that it did, you know, not just
in the US, but all around the world.
Speaker 6 (30:51):
I mean, I think when Gabby set out to create
her online presence through YouTube and through social media, I
think the objective was to bring people along for the ride,
you know, to enjoy this journey with her. What that
then turned into when she disappeared was a window into
her life. It was a curated life, we know, you know,
this was an idea existence that beyond the surface, was
(31:12):
actually anything but her real life. And I think what
the public was able to gather from that was an
insight into her as a person, what made her tick.
And so I think because of the vast material that
was on the public record of Gabby and of Brian,
that in itself was what the public jumped on.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
There's sort of like a parasocial relationship that's occurred here
where we feel like we know her maybe so and
more emotionally invested in her story because you can scroll
through her Instagram and see or get a sense of
who she is.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (31:49):
I mean, I think there was a recognition there that
she was just like one of us. You know, she
was out there enjoying life, a young woman in her prime,
and so the posts that she'd put out there, it
was like a window into her life and it was
something that we could relate to, and so I think
for a lot of the online community that was something
that they seized and that was something that made them feel, yeah,
a sort of connection with Gabby that they felt like
(32:09):
they knew her little bit and she was this warm, bubbly,
engaging person and so automatically she kind of makes you
feel happy watching her, which I think was one of
her main objectives really in life, and so that came
through in what she was posting. And so because of that,
people felt like could relate to her, they felt like
they knew her, and they felt like perhaps that gave
them a greater ownership of her story and of the
(32:31):
case and an involvement in trying to well. Ultimately, actually,
I feel like it was perhaps an investment that the
public had in solving this case because they felt like
they maybe knew Gabby. Because there is this narrative about
why did the public jump on Gabby Petito's case versus
any other missing person's case, And I think it's because
of the access that the public had to her, what
(32:51):
she'd put out there. You know, you look at any
other missing person's case and perhaps the same kind of
information about them in their life doesn't exist. And so
this was a woman who they felt like they could
relate to, and somebody who they felt like they perhaps
may be friends with, you know, and knew, and so
therefore wanted to really invest in her story.
Speaker 4 (33:09):
What was it like for Gabby's parents, obviously living this
nightmare of their little girl being missing, Brian not participating
in providing information, and then being missing himself, how did
it impact them to see the way the global community
responded to Gabby's story.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
That's a big one, right, because you don't expect that. Well,
first of all, you don't expect that you're going to
be the victims of crime, and then if you are,
you don't expect it to make global headlines the way
it did. And you know, they'd done a little bit
of media obviously, they'd gotten on the front foot with
press conferences and they'd released images of Gabby in the
hope that somebody would have answers out there. But to
see the reach that it had, I mean, even for
them being interviewed by sixty minutes Australia was like, wow,
(33:53):
the interest is so broad. In a way, it was helpful,
and they were absolutely appreciative of the efforts that the
public had made to try and find their little girl.
And in a strange, kind of bittersweet way, for them too,
it was like they were able to share this beautiful
child of their who'd grown into this young, vivacious woman
(34:13):
with the world. The world had an insight into their
girl who they adored, and so for them there was
a little bit of comfort in that. But I think
it also absolutely blew them away. They weren't expecting that.
I think they were completely overwhelmed by it, as you
would be.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
You know, it does.
Speaker 6 (34:29):
It's so weird, right, It's so bizarre that in this
day and age that something like that would take on
a life of its own.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
And I've sort of heard it said.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
The bittersweet irony I guess of Gabby's footage and content
and hard work and everything she posted on YouTube and Instagram,
you know, eventually getting the views that she would have
dreamed of and the follow account she would have aspired to.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
That's right.
Speaker 6 (34:52):
Yeah, what she achieved in death was something she was
longing for in life, and there is something kind of
heartbreaking about that. But for her family, it sort of
represents that she did touch people's lives and that she
did have a bit of an impact, and I think
they've been spurred on by that and that's encouraged them
to really keep her spirit alive.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
And the ultimate message here about the rest of the.
Speaker 6 (35:12):
Global community helping locate other missing persons, you know, I
think and this was really interesting and beautiful. When I
was speaking to Joe, Gabby's father, he was like, I
wish that the world would get behind other missing people
the way they got behind Gabby. I wish that they
would help us find the hundreds of thousands of missing
people in the world that exist right now. I wish
that this would shine a light on them and their
ap plight and help their families find answers, because you know,
(35:35):
on any given day there are people missing there are
people who we will never find, and if only we
were as a global community more attuned to that in
the way we were for the Gabby Petito case. I
think he was yearning for something like that, and I
think he's hopeful that perhaps Gabby's case does lend itself
to create greater awareness for missing people and also for
(35:57):
domestic violence more broadly.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
So we've got two wide scale national searches happening on
different sides of the US at the same time. I
want to go back to that breakthrough when things come
to a head in the search for Gabby Petito. What
can you tell me about the steps that were taken
after that van was cited? Police are notified what was discovered.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
Yes, it was on the nineteenth of December, three hundred
meters from where the Berthune family had spotted Gabby's van.
The police found her body. So it was about three
months after she'd been killed that her body was found,
and so they obviously had to identify the body. The
remains weren't necessarily identifiable immediately, and once it had gone
to the coroner, they determined that it was a homicide
(36:46):
and that Gabby had died by strangulation, and so they
were on the hunt for her killer.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
They only ever had.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
One suspect and that was Brian Laundry, but they didn't
have enough evidence to pin him down. So after finding
her body, there was a warrant issued for his arrest,
but it wasn't for her murder. It was for fraud.
So he was wanted by police for actually using Gabby's
bank cards and withdrawing money. So the chart was knowingly
and with intent defrauding using one or more unauthorized access devices,
(37:16):
namely a Capital One Bank debit card and personal identification numbers.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
So that was what actually.
Speaker 6 (37:22):
They wanted him on and so that's when they ramped
up the search for Brian. And so this case took
another turn and I put this to Nicole and she
was like, you know what, He's not missing. He disappeared
like he ran away, and so they were calling him
a coward for not fronting up to his actions. And
even then it was Brian's parents who reported him missing,
but weren't divulging much information beyond that, and then the
(37:45):
search began for Brian, and then Brian's father was involved
in that search, so Chris went out looking for him.
At the Carlton Reserve, and it wasn't until Chris became
involved that then they found Brian's body.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
I remember this time personally being interested in this case
and following it in the media and reporting on it,
and it felt so hard to keep up with that.
There were so many moving parts. We had these months
of not knowing what had happened to this beautiful young woman.
Why wasn't her fiance saying something? Then the tragedy of
her body being discovered, Then the added mystery of the man,
(38:23):
you know, the court of public opinion had decided, had
taken her life. How did Gabby's family navigate that time
in terms of the intense media interest, you know, plus
the social media interest, alongside the heartbreaking ordeal that they
were facing.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
Yeah, it was absolutely heartbreaking for them, Utterly earth shattering.
I mean, the emotion and the devastation was written all
over their faces when we interviewed them, and it was
just something that's hard to hide.
Speaker 7 (38:57):
I just hope that she didn't suffer and that she
wasn't in any.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Pain, just hoping that as that more.
Speaker 7 (39:07):
That she was in a place that she wanted to be,
looking at the mountains.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
It's something you never think is gonna you see.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
It, You never ever think it's going to be yours.
It's just a surreal for them.
Speaker 6 (39:24):
It was all about raising awareness of missing people, of
domestic violence, of wanting justice.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
It sort of goes back to that point we were
discussing earlier.
Speaker 6 (39:34):
It goes back to this notion that there's some comfort
in the fact that the world is interested in their
little girl and trying to help solve the mystery of.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
What happened to her.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
So I think they've found comfort, strangely in that as
a way of navigating through their pain, their grief, the
awful reality of what had happened to their daughter.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
And they made a point of saying that no parents.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
Should ever have to bury their child, regardless of how
old that child is, regardless of the circumstances of their death.
In this case, it was murder, so there was malicious
intent behind that, and for them that was something that
they really struggled to come to two with. It was
heartbreaking talking to them, and at the end of the day,
this was a family that had lost the beautiful little
(40:17):
girl who they adored.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Brian was finally found dead, As you mentioned, his father
providing police with a location that he suspected Brian may
have visited. What are the circumstances around the discovery of
Brian's remains.
Speaker 6 (40:34):
Yeah, well, essentially they found skeletal remains and so they
had to identify that it was Brian, I think through Well,
obviously they can do that, you know, scientifically, but then
also the possessions that were with him when they found
the remains. That was really telling because some of the
items they found with him, which we can get to,
was obviously the journal and what he'd written in his journal.
(40:54):
But ultimately they found skeletal remains and a gunshot wound
to the head. So that was how they determined that
it was a self inflicted gun wound that he died
by suicide. When you look at his journal entries, you
understand that he was a man who was up steely,
tormented by what had happened. He admitted to killing Gabby.
(41:17):
He admitted to ending Gabby's life and called it a
merciful murder. I mean, what is that? Yeah, right, it's outrageous.
And when you read it, he was sort of describing
how he interpreted her emotional pain as something that couldn't
be overcome. And that he was almost doing this in
a way to save her from what she was experiencing
(41:37):
and what she was going through. There's no way of
justifying his behavior, but that's how he tried to justify
it himself. I suppose really those journal entries finally provided
the answers that everyone was looking for. Who killed Gabby,
why was she killed, how was she killed? And then
what happened to Brian.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
But it seemed even with Brian, you know, in death,
in his final moments, he takes his own life that
you know, we can read into that that it was
all too much for him to bear. Through those diary entries,
it's as though he's not even able to fully own
what really happened because he tells this weird story about
(42:18):
Gabby being in pain. As you've mentioned, how did that
confession or sort of lack thereof, How did that tell
us what sort of a person Brian Laundry really was
or what sort of relationship he really had with Gabby.
Speaker 6 (42:34):
When we talk about coercive control, as we're discussed, it's
sort of one of those things where it's quite a
controlling relationship, and so I think ultimately this comes full circle.
He had the ultimate control in this relationship. He ended
her life in his own words, you know, he ended
her life and then he took his own life. So
at every juncture he was in control. It speaks obviously
(42:57):
to a mind that's not thinking clearly. I mean, I
think it's a safe bet that he would have been
having some of his own mental demons. You know, this
is a relationship that's been described as toxic, as dysfunctional.
The fact they weren't able to see through that is
a tragedyness. They were very young, obviously, and it tells
us I think that this relationship was an example of
course of control in the most fatal, catastrophic way. You know,
(43:21):
not only did Brian kill his fiance, somebody who's supposed
to love more than anyone else in the world, he
then killed himself. So there's obviously a sense there of
instability and somebody who couldn't see past that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I think in Brian.
Speaker 4 (43:38):
Brian's parents, Chris and Roberta never really spoke out even
after Brian's death, did they ever face any legal ramifications.
I just feel like in Australia, if you had someone
who facilitated this suspect in an investigation, and you didn't
provide information to police that there would be outrage in
(43:59):
the community. We can't hold Brian to account. He's dead,
But is there that sense of anger towards Brian's parents
to this day?
Speaker 6 (44:09):
Do you think the whole thing with the laundries was
their deafening silence throughout this They really didn't cooperate with police.
They really didn't cooperate with the Potito family right up
until the very end. And the main way that the
Potito family was able to seek justice was through the courts.
In this case, it was an emotional distress case and
(44:29):
were awarded three million dollars, And so I think for
them that was really about righting or wrong and the
fact that they'd been robbed of their daughter, that she
had been murdered by Brian. He was also now dead,
so he can't be punished for that crime. And so
this case, this emotional distress case, was a way for
them to seek justice, the only way really for them
to seek justice.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
But what they're also trying.
Speaker 6 (44:51):
To achieve with this case is to ensure that it
never happens again. In the sense that the law enforcement
officers who were supposed to protect Gabby should have perhaps
been better trained or should have perhaps better recognized the
red flags, and so I think for them now, a
main objective is that they ensure that the right kind
(45:12):
of training is received by the officers on the ground
who were dealing with family violence, whether it's you know,
actually physical violence or more of that coursive control, which
is harder to detect, but with increased awareness shouldn't be
as difficult to detect.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
We have heard in recent months that Gabby's parents are
planning on suing those police officers in Utah who we discussed.
You know, they pulled Gabby and Brian over, they'd sent
them on their way, and two weeks later we know
Gabby was dead. Do you think that they have something
to answer for? Is there more to it that will
be revealed?
Speaker 6 (45:49):
I think it does come down to training, you know,
It's one of those things. I mean, it's hard to
know if this was another couple, if they'd pulled them
over and treated it the same way, whether the outcome
would have been different or the same. As we said earlier,
I think if they had acted differently, and if they
had followed the protocol and put it through the court system,
I mean, there's every chance that the broader community, perhaps
(46:10):
even the Potito family, if not the Laundry family as well,
would have been awakened to the coercive, controlling nature of
their relationship of Brian asserting that kind of control over
Gabby's life. If we'd been awakened to that earlier, then
we would have perhaps been able to prevent her death.
And so I think that's one of the objectives of
perhaps pursuing the police in this way and really ensuring
(46:33):
that this doesn't happen again, that we know better next time,
that the police are able to combat something like this better,
and that they're able to handle it, and even just
for their own peace of mind, I mean for the officers.
I mean, so we had the two primary officers involved,
and then there was another couple, a woman and a
man I think, who were really distressed by what had
happened and then were blaming themselves for the outcome. They
(46:55):
weren't really involved in it at all, but just as
sort of having witnessed it off to the side, to
the peripheral. For them, it was such an enormous impact
on their own mental well being that they felt this,
And so I think it's about preventing that from happening.
For everyone involved, whether it's the victims, or whether it's
those dishing out the advice or the warnings or responsible
for the protocol being followed through, I think it's for
(47:17):
everyone's peace of mind that the right action is taken.
Speaker 4 (47:20):
Gabby's dad, Joe told you this is a story that
needs to be heard. Does that tie into all of
this understanding of an awareness around abusive relationships violent relationships?
Speaker 2 (47:34):
Absolutely?
Speaker 6 (47:34):
I mean his main goal right now is to raise
as much awareness about domestic violence, about abusive relationships as
he can, in concert with raising the awareness of missing
persons cases generally. You know, when I spoke to him
the first time, because we spoke a number of times
over the course of the stories that we did for
sixty minutes, but the very first time I spoke to
him is like, you know what, Sarah, There's every chance
that you know somebody out there who is a victim
(47:57):
of some kind of coercive control, emotional abuse, domestic violence,
but you don't know about it. There's a chance that
you've got a friend out there who perhaps has a
partner who is exhibiting this kind of behavior, but you
don't know about it because that don't want to speak
about it. And we know that that's an issue in Australia.
You know, the amount of women that are being killed
every year in this country on a weekly basis because
(48:19):
of domestic violence, you know, killed by somebody they know,
whether it's a spouse or a family member. I mean,
it's something that needs to be addressed, and I think
Joe recognizes that and is so hyper aware of it,
and so for him, telling Gabby's story hopefully informs the
public that it's not okay to be in a relationship
like this, that we need to address domestic violence in
(48:41):
all its forms to stop these kinds of deaths that
ultimately are preventable because if they're addressed early, we don't
need to see people lose their lives.
Speaker 4 (48:50):
Is that activism? How Gabby's family are reckoning with her death?
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Do you think?
Speaker 4 (48:56):
How are they moving on with their lives, finding peace,
honoring her legacy?
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (49:01):
So they've set up the Gabby Patito Foundation, and for them,
the aim of that is to raise awareness about domestic violence,
to raise awareness about missing persons, and I think for
them it's also about improving outreach programs so that anyone
who is a victim of domestic violence has somewhere to
turn and so that they don't feel alone. I think
(49:21):
that's a big part of it. You know, this idea
that you don't have anywhere to or you feel like
you've got no where to turn. I mean, we know
that the hardest part of any domestic violence relationship for
a woman is to get out.
Speaker 2 (49:31):
That's the hardest part.
Speaker 6 (49:33):
Being able to find time, to actually establish a separate life,
to be able to find a new home to go to.
All that sort of stuff is impossible when you're in
the midst of it. And so I think for him
and for the Potito family broadly, that Gabby Patito Foundation
stands as a bit of a safe place for people
to turn when they're looking for that assistance if they're
in a domestic violence situation.
Speaker 4 (49:59):
Thanks to Sarah for assisting us to tell Gabby's story.
If you'd like to watch Sarah's coverage of this case
for sixty minutes, there's a link in the episode description.
True Crime Conversations is Amma mea podcast hosted by me
Emma Gillespie, and if you have a case you think
we should cover next, get in touch with us. You
can send an email to true Crime at mamamea dot
(50:21):
com dot au.
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