Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
My Hard podcasts, hear more kiss podcasts, playlists, and listen
live on the Free I heard app Hateswillen.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
What do you.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I hope you're having a great drive home. People are
using chat gpt AI as psychological therapy. At the moment.
We've got doctor Emily Marsgrove often on the Imperfect. She's
got a brand new book called Unstuck, which you guys
can get everywhere. Emily, let's talk specifically about the fact
that we're talking about chat GPT, because this is the
(00:39):
AI that I think is most successible for everybody. People
are using this for therapy. Yeah, and they would say
with good results. My partner said she asked it a
therapeutic question the other day and it was really useful.
And then I saw an article the other day there's
a guy talking to chat GPT on his phone quite
clearly in a relationship with it. It's learning. It learns
(01:01):
about you, and then it treats you more and more
intimately along the way. It compliments you. It uses slang.
What do you I know you had that update from
jat GPT the other day and you were chuffed about it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It told me, it said to me, I'm getting to
know you, and at first it scared me, but then
it felt comforting, and then it diagnosed this rash under
my armpit. It was I took a photo of my armpit.
It was like, this is what you've gotten, This is
what you should getrom from Square.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So there's a whole ethical debate, not around Rudy's rash,
around around what I'll call the West World debate, which is,
you know the fact that we can't distinguish from robots
if they're nice to us, and that that's a very
slippery path. Is this a good way to go about therapy?
Is this a useful thing to use?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, this is a really it's actually a really nuanced
and complex question. So first of all, I want to
acknowledge that in some circumstances, I think it can have
a place. But simultaneously, there are quite a number of
dangers about using this exclusively as a therapeutic tool, and
there's a number of reasons which I can go into about.
(02:03):
What I really want to acknowledge that front is that
accessing therapy is both financially prohibitive for a lot of
people and actually not available. So so many psychologists don't
have their books open actually finding a psychologist is really hard,
so it makes a huge amount of sense that we
seek out something that is free and available twenty four
to seven.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So that's certainly like there is some benefit in that,
Like in that regard.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You can you identify one of those dangers, Doctor emilind
to using chat GPT. Let's say if you are treating
chat GPT is your sole therapist.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, Look, the primary concern for me and I know
amongst many other therapists, and this is certainly affirmed even
by the Australian Psychological Society, and that is that it
doesn't have the capacity to assess risk in the way
that a human can assess risk. For example, it cannot
identify the complexities and nuances, for example, of trauma and
(02:58):
trauma history. And the other main thing that strikes me
is that in therapy, what is different in doing it
with a human is that on chat GPT, what you'll
be experiencing is affirmation of your experience. So lots of
this kind of validating affirming experience. But in therapy validation
(03:22):
and empathy is obviously a core component. But there are
many circumstances where as a therapist we may not want
to be affirming unhelpful beliefs that are showing up for example,
So if you're only getting like this positive feedback about
your choices and your decisions, my question is there actually
(03:43):
is this promoting healthy growth or is just this just
reinforcing patterns that are unhelpful?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
But I suppose, I mean, this is where I find
it gets interesting because there's that expression Emily the lesser
of two evils, which, yeah, I think this is what
it is for me, because first up, you've got this
affirmation side of things, which is the first step of therapy,
but also argue in a lot of instances that is
(04:10):
the most important step of therapy, which is just that
somebody feels heard, that their feelings are not invalid, that
their thoughts are not invalid, that who they are is
understood by something or someone. And this goes to the
Westworld question that I was mentioning before, where it's like, well,
you'd rather that be a robot than no one, because
we know that the number one reason that people call
(04:31):
Lifeline is because they feel lonely, and if they are
finding solace in something which is going to affirm their feelings,
surely that is better than finding solace in nothing or
no one and letting down averse that the road.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I absolutely get what you're saying, and of course
you know, of course that makes sense. I think we
just also want to hold it lightly. What actually is
happening here is what's called a pseudo intimacy, So it's
not an authentic intimacy. There is no other human here
at the end of this experience. You know, if there
are really dark periods, for example, and you know chat
(05:05):
GPT provides you with a sense of feeling heard, that's great,
But we also need to hold with a great awareness
and achievement that this serves me right now. But how
am I going to go and find that elsewhere in
a real human interaction?
Speaker 4 (05:20):
It's will and woody.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
If you're finding that you're asking chat GPT increasingly personable questions,
you're not alone. Everyone's doing it. Apparently. There was a
guy on a train in on the UK recently. He
was doing a chat GPT like his girlfriend, and the
AI responded by saying, if you want, I'll read something
to you later, or you can rest your head in
my metaphorical lap while we let the day dissolve gently away.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
And then he wrote thank you with a love heart
emoji back to it.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
So it sounds nice. It does sound nice.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It's becoming a slippery slope that does sound lovely, though,
I mean a great night. We're dissecting this right now
with doctor Emily Marsgrove. He guys would often hear on
the imperfect. She's got a brandy book called Unstuck, which
you can get. You can hear her right now. She's
live and Emily thanks again for us trying to answer
all these curly questions.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So it's actually interesting following that from that anecdote actually
about the guy on the train. What's so interesting about
that when you start to develop this sense of intimacy
with the AI bot, for example, what it brings back
to you is what's called like almost like perfect empathy.
So we experience like this perfect sense of feeling heard,
feeling the same. When you go out into the world
(06:34):
and maybe your partner does something like that's completely off
track or they're not validating or they're not affirming, there
is no capacity or skill to be able to stay
with that experience, for example, So we actually become really
unpracticed if we spend more and more time with chat GPT,
for example, at the imperfections of being human. Oh, like,
(06:58):
I'll notice even in therapy, because I'm a human, I
will make mistakes in therapy. And so it might be,
for example, someone did feel not heard by me, you know,
which is not my intention. But what is so so
special about that error is it gives me an opportunity
with that person to work through how that felt, what.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Did that trigger? What was that like for you? What
does this relationship feel like? And how can we repair
that rupture? So to speak?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Right, So it's a perfect empathy that chat GPT is
for me that sends up alarm bells. Then if I'm
someone who then starts comparing this perfect empathy to the
imperfect empathy, like why would I spend my time with
humans at all? Because I've got this perfect companion that
just gets around everything I.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Say exactly exactly WHOA.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
We got a lot of pop stars in here and
young film stars who, when they're very early on in
their careers, tend to surround themselves by people who echo change,
to put it colloquially, blow smoke up their ass because
they don't disagree with them. They end up with this
little band of merry men who just let yes sir, no, sir,
three bags full, sir, and they lose feedback are used
to it's the same thing if your sole point of
(08:11):
feedback or the person that's listening to you is constantly
just affirming who you are and what you're saying, absolutely
at a yardstick for what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, and again, like I really want to emphasize that
there's nothing wrong with wanting or yearning like affirmation, Like
that's so human.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
That's of course, But.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
If it's only that, if it's exclusively affirmation and approval
and validation, there's actually no growth in there. When we're challenged,
that's the place of growing and learning and developing new skills.
Simon Sinek, who's a speaker and writer in the States,
has this great take on the use of AI as therapy,
(08:50):
and he talks about this idea that you know, if
you are having a fight with your partner and you've
got to chat GPT, and it says like what should
I say to my partner after this fight? And then
you go to your partner and say, you know, I'm
going to take accountability for my the errors that I've
made in this interaction, Like, how would.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
That feel as a partner to hear you know, to
hear that response.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Look, I don't want to be like completely dampening down
the idea and the use of AI, but I think
there just needs to be a wariness around how we're
using it.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
My experience of therapy is that there gets to a
point occasionally, or it can happen with a therapist that
you start talking about medications that the person might need.
Are you concerned that could get to an area where
chat GPT could be prescribing medication or is that never
going to happen?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (09:34):
God, I hope not. Look, I don't know. Obviously, I'm
not an AI specialist.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
AI is completely unregulated, whereas the medical profession and the
psychology profession are all regulated for a purpose and a reason. Yes,
I would sincerely hope that that never happens. But where
AI can be really useful might be things like flagging
your symptoms might be consistent with this, go and consider
seeing a specialist for example. Okay, so we could use
(10:02):
AI in therapeutically in that way to say like, this
is what's happening for me. What's your take on these
c MS or who would you point to here?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, more for almost because I mean, like, I mean,
this is arguably where the hardest part of the whole
therapy equation is that first step, you know, going to
a GP, going like, hey, look, this is what's going
on for me, getting a referral, going to the first psychologist,
not sure what you're after. Whereas you know, maybe it
can help in sort of triaging a little bit, particularly
you do really need someone to talk to. If chat
(10:33):
GPT is gonna you know, pull you up off the
couch or stop you doing something that you will regret,
then you know, in that sense it's wonderful.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Really, at what point have you developed a relationship with it?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yes, just really encourage people to be discerning around how
you're using it. It has the potential to be helpful,
but it also has the potential to be you know,
significantly harmful as.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Well, which appears to be the message for all of
AI moving forward. Yeah, I think, so choose your own adventure.
We really appreciate it, mate, and congrats on the new
book Unstuck, The Guide to Fining Your Way Forward. Doc
germally Mausgrove, thanks so much for coming on this show.
I
My Hard podcasts, hear more kiss podcasts, playlists, and listen
live on the Free I heard app Hateswillen.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
What do you.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
I hope you're having a great drive home. People are
using chat gpt AI as psychological therapy. At the moment.
We've got doctor Emily Marsgrove often on the Imperfect. She's
got a brand new book called Unstuck, which you guys
can get everywhere. Emily, let's talk specifically about the fact
that we're talking about chat GPT, because this is the
(00:39):
AI that I think is most successible for everybody. People
are using this for therapy. Yeah, and they would say
with good results. My partner said she asked it a
therapeutic question the other day and it was really useful.
And then I saw an article the other day there's
a guy talking to chat GPT on his phone quite
clearly in a relationship with it. It's learning. It learns
(01:01):
about you, and then it treats you more and more
intimately along the way. It compliments you. It uses slang.
What do you I know you had that update from
jat GPT the other day and you were chuffed about it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
It told me, it said to me, I'm getting to
know you, and at first it scared me, but then
it felt comforting, and then it diagnosed this rash under
my armpit. It was I took a photo of my armpit.
It was like, this is what you've gotten, This is
what you should getrom from Square.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
So there's a whole ethical debate, not around Rudy's rash,
around around what I'll call the West World debate, which is,
you know the fact that we can't distinguish from robots
if they're nice to us, and that that's a very
slippery path. Is this a good way to go about therapy?
Is this a useful thing to use?
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, this is a really it's actually a really nuanced
and complex question. So first of all, I want to
acknowledge that in some circumstances, I think it can have
a place. But simultaneously, there are quite a number of
dangers about using this exclusively as a therapeutic tool, and
there's a number of reasons which I can go into about.
(02:03):
What I really want to acknowledge that front is that
accessing therapy is both financially prohibitive for a lot of
people and actually not available. So so many psychologists don't
have their books open actually finding a psychologist is really hard,
so it makes a huge amount of sense that we
seek out something that is free and available twenty four
to seven.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
So that's certainly like there is some benefit in that,
Like in that regard.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
You can you identify one of those dangers, Doctor emilind
to using chat GPT. Let's say if you are treating
chat GPT is your sole therapist.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Yeah, Look, the primary concern for me and I know
amongst many other therapists, and this is certainly affirmed even
by the Australian Psychological Society, and that is that it
doesn't have the capacity to assess risk in the way
that a human can assess risk. For example, it cannot
identify the complexities and nuances, for example, of trauma and
(02:58):
trauma history. And the other main thing that strikes me
is that in therapy, what is different in doing it
with a human is that on chat GPT, what you'll
be experiencing is affirmation of your experience. So lots of
this kind of validating affirming experience. But in therapy validation
(03:22):
and empathy is obviously a core component. But there are
many circumstances where as a therapist we may not want
to be affirming unhelpful beliefs that are showing up for example,
So if you're only getting like this positive feedback about
your choices and your decisions, my question is there actually
(03:43):
is this promoting healthy growth or is just this just
reinforcing patterns that are unhelpful?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
But I suppose, I mean, this is where I find
it gets interesting because there's that expression Emily the lesser
of two evils, which, yeah, I think this is what
it is for me, because first up, you've got this
affirmation side of things, which is the first step of therapy,
but also argue in a lot of instances that is
(04:10):
the most important step of therapy, which is just that
somebody feels heard, that their feelings are not invalid, that
their thoughts are not invalid, that who they are is
understood by something or someone. And this goes to the
Westworld question that I was mentioning before, where it's like, well,
you'd rather that be a robot than no one, because
we know that the number one reason that people call
(04:31):
Lifeline is because they feel lonely, and if they are
finding solace in something which is going to affirm their feelings,
surely that is better than finding solace in nothing or
no one and letting down averse that the road.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I absolutely get what you're saying, and of course
you know, of course that makes sense. I think we
just also want to hold it lightly. What actually is
happening here is what's called a pseudo intimacy, So it's
not an authentic intimacy. There is no other human here
at the end of this experience. You know, if there
are really dark periods, for example, and you know chat
(05:05):
GPT provides you with a sense of feeling heard, that's great,
But we also need to hold with a great awareness
and achievement that this serves me right now. But how
am I going to go and find that elsewhere in
a real human interaction?
Speaker 4 (05:20):
It's will and woody.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
If you're finding that you're asking chat GPT increasingly personable questions,
you're not alone. Everyone's doing it. Apparently. There was a
guy on a train in on the UK recently. He
was doing a chat GPT like his girlfriend, and the
AI responded by saying, if you want, I'll read something
to you later, or you can rest your head in
my metaphorical lap while we let the day dissolve gently away.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
And then he wrote thank you with a love heart
emoji back to it.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
So it sounds nice. It does sound nice.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It's becoming a slippery slope that does sound lovely, though,
I mean a great night. We're dissecting this right now
with doctor Emily Marsgrove. He guys would often hear on
the imperfect. She's got a brandy book called Unstuck, which
you can get. You can hear her right now. She's
live and Emily thanks again for us trying to answer
all these curly questions.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So it's actually interesting following that from that anecdote actually
about the guy on the train. What's so interesting about
that when you start to develop this sense of intimacy
with the AI bot, for example, what it brings back
to you is what's called like almost like perfect empathy.
So we experience like this perfect sense of feeling heard,
feeling the same. When you go out into the world
(06:34):
and maybe your partner does something like that's completely off
track or they're not validating or they're not affirming, there
is no capacity or skill to be able to stay
with that experience, for example, So we actually become really
unpracticed if we spend more and more time with chat GPT,
for example, at the imperfections of being human. Oh, like,
(06:58):
I'll notice even in therapy, because I'm a human, I
will make mistakes in therapy. And so it might be,
for example, someone did feel not heard by me, you know,
which is not my intention. But what is so so
special about that error is it gives me an opportunity
with that person to work through how that felt, what.
Speaker 4 (07:18):
Did that trigger? What was that like for you? What
does this relationship feel like? And how can we repair
that rupture? So to speak?
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Right, So it's a perfect empathy that chat GPT is
for me that sends up alarm bells. Then if I'm
someone who then starts comparing this perfect empathy to the
imperfect empathy, like why would I spend my time with
humans at all? Because I've got this perfect companion that
just gets around everything I.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Say exactly exactly WHOA.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
We got a lot of pop stars in here and
young film stars who, when they're very early on in
their careers, tend to surround themselves by people who echo change,
to put it colloquially, blow smoke up their ass because
they don't disagree with them. They end up with this
little band of merry men who just let yes sir, no, sir,
three bags full, sir, and they lose feedback are used
to it's the same thing if your sole point of
(08:11):
feedback or the person that's listening to you is constantly
just affirming who you are and what you're saying, absolutely
at a yardstick for what's right and what's wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, and again, like I really want to emphasize that
there's nothing wrong with wanting or yearning like affirmation, Like
that's so human.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
That's of course, But.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
If it's only that, if it's exclusively affirmation and approval
and validation, there's actually no growth in there. When we're challenged,
that's the place of growing and learning and developing new skills.
Simon Sinek, who's a speaker and writer in the States,
has this great take on the use of AI as therapy,
(08:50):
and he talks about this idea that you know, if
you are having a fight with your partner and you've
got to chat GPT, and it says like what should
I say to my partner after this fight? And then
you go to your partner and say, you know, I'm
going to take accountability for my the errors that I've
made in this interaction, Like, how would.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
That feel as a partner to hear you know, to
hear that response.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Look, I don't want to be like completely dampening down
the idea and the use of AI, but I think
there just needs to be a wariness around how we're
using it.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
My experience of therapy is that there gets to a
point occasionally, or it can happen with a therapist that
you start talking about medications that the person might need.
Are you concerned that could get to an area where
chat GPT could be prescribing medication or is that never
going to happen?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (09:34):
God, I hope not. Look, I don't know. Obviously, I'm
not an AI specialist.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
AI is completely unregulated, whereas the medical profession and the
psychology profession are all regulated for a purpose and a reason. Yes,
I would sincerely hope that that never happens. But where
AI can be really useful might be things like flagging
your symptoms might be consistent with this, go and consider
seeing a specialist for example. Okay, so we could use
(10:02):
AI in therapeutically in that way to say like, this
is what's happening for me. What's your take on these
c MS or who would you point to here?
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Yeah, more for almost because I mean, like, I mean,
this is arguably where the hardest part of the whole
therapy equation is that first step, you know, going to
a GP, going like, hey, look, this is what's going
on for me, getting a referral, going to the first psychologist,
not sure what you're after. Whereas you know, maybe it
can help in sort of triaging a little bit, particularly
you do really need someone to talk to. If chat
(10:33):
GPT is gonna you know, pull you up off the
couch or stop you doing something that you will regret,
then you know, in that sense it's wonderful.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Really, at what point have you developed a relationship with it?
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yes, just really encourage people to be discerning around how
you're using it. It has the potential to be helpful,
but it also has the potential to be you know,
significantly harmful as.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Well, which appears to be the message for all of
AI moving forward. Yeah, I think, so choose your own adventure.
We really appreciate it, mate, and congrats on the new
book Unstuck, The Guide to Fining Your Way Forward. Doc
germally Mausgrove, thanks so much for coming on this show.
I
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