In this episode, Caroline is joined by Dr Carissa Lee, a Noongar actor and writer born on Wemba-Wemba country with a PhD in Indigenous theatre from The University of Melbourne. An actor who has featured in film, television, and voiceover work, as well as performing with major theatre companies, Carissa is a talented creative force. Paired with her impressive achievements in academia and position at Swinburne University of Technology, she is making waves in Australia’s performing arts industry.
In this episode, Caroline and Carissa yarn about her journey into the industry, starting in a small town doing highschool Shakesphere productions to working for some of Australia’s biggest theatre groups. She talks about the works that have inspired her as an actor and writer, and some of the favourite projects she’s been a part of in her career so far - and the exciting work she’s been doing on her new ABC show Planet Lulin featuring as Principle Cruz.
Carissa and Caroline celebrate seeing more Aboriginal people on our screens, and the importance of seeking continuous improvement in representation and diversity in TV and film . You’ll also learn more about the amazing work Carissa has been doing with her PhD, and how she wants to use her knowledge and experience to help protect Aboriginal people and their culture by facilitating safe and ethical spaces to share stories.
To follow Carrisa Lee visit her Instagram page here, to watch her as feature as Principle Cruz here.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and don’t forget to follow the show!
Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here!
We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was taped. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast was brought to you by On Track Studio.
For advertising opportunities please email hello@ontrackstudio.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations
stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
proud barber woman and founder of Black Waddel Coaching and Consulting,
(00:30):
Caroline cow. We acknowledge the Runderi people and elders where
this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands
that you are listening in from today. It always was
and always will be unseated Aboriginal and tourist Red Islander Land. Well,
(00:54):
I am so excited about sitting down with my next guest,
gris Lee. Kurisa is doing incredible things in the arts. Performer,
an actor, a writer, someone with their hands in many
pies and I'm excited to unpack them all and unravel
them all in today's conversation. So thank you so much
(01:17):
for being here today.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Well, thank you so much for having me sus It's
really wonderful and I'm such a fan of the show.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh, thank you. I was thinking about where we first met.
Actually we've had the pleasure of meeting before. I don't
know if you remember this, but when we did the
work in the schools, we went into some primary schools.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Part of the Deadly Questions campaign. Yeah, that's all right.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
That was such a great day, wasn't it. I was
a last minute ringing to come with some black talent
and I was like, yeah, I can come along. And
we got there and we got to talk about our
stories and our experiences and what a treaty is and
what it isn't for young people in primary scope and
it was just such a deadly experience.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Hey, it was really cute.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's always nice to sort of, you know, distinguish where
we've all met because we've got such a small community.
I think that's the thing people don't realize. So yeah,
it's nice to sort of see full circle and what
you've gone on to accomplished since that there was maybe
five years ago. I'm so excited to unpack your journey
since that time at the schools. But as we always
do on this show, we like to start by getting
(02:27):
to know you, and we'd love to know, Yeah, who's
your mom and a little bit about yeah, where you
grew up and your family.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I'm a longer woman and my brother and I were
born on Wemblewember Country in swan Hill, and yeah, we
grew up there sort of by the river and mucking
around and love and life. And then we eventually moved
to matt Gambia in South Australia, oh and It Country,
and we lived there for quite a while, and my
family still lived there. I moved from there to go
(02:55):
to Adelaide to go to UNI. I mean I was
going to go do psychology. You I don't know why,
but then I ended up auditioning for Flinder's Drama Center
on a whim, and because my drama teacher at high
school had mentioned the place because he graduated from there.
And I auditioned and got in and went there for
four years, stayed in Adelaide for a bit, and then
(03:17):
moved over here to try and get a bit more
work and to do a PhD. And yeah, just see
what happens. I love Melbourne so much.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Wow, that is such an interesting journey from swan Hill
to Mount Gambia to falling into acting, which is now,
you know, a part of your career. I know that
you're such a multifaceted person, so acting and creative performance
wasn't always in your crystal ball. It wasn't something that
you were interested in as a young person.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Didn't think it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Was actually possible because living in a small town your
options are quite limited. So I thought maybe if I
do some kind of like psychology course through correspondence, then
it might be more possible for me to have a
career and stay home and that kind of stuff. But yeah,
in the end, I had to kind of get out
of there, because you know, when you just know that
you're done with a place and in order to grow,
(04:09):
you need to leave. And I think that was one
of those things. As a kid, I loved writing more
than anything else. I really loved writing, and then got
into the acting stuff. But yeah, I seemed to find
a way to balance both, which I think is really nice.
It sort of exercises different parts of my brain, which
I really love.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And So, if you were to think back in high school,
did you do any theater or any performance.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, well, I was initially at what I think they're
called like area schools, where they're sort of preps to
year twelve, and I was there for a bit and
we did sort of like dance stuff, and I did
gymnastics as well, So that was kind of like that.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Performance aspect a little bit as well. And then I ended.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Up getting kicked out of that school because I was
a rat back. And then I went to another school,
Matt Gambia High School, and that was where I met
my drama teacher, John Crautch, and he just kind of
threw me into all the theater things like Okay, you
need to do this class, you need to do this class.
And I did as much theater as I could. I
became one of the theater nerds. It was really awesome
and made the most amazing friends who I'm still friends
(05:09):
with now.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
And how we did lots of Shakespeare.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That school was very heavy on the Shakespeare, which kind
of contributed to my already existing obsession with Shakespeare. And
we did musicals and that kind of stuff as well,
which I mean wasn't the best for me because I'm
not the best singer, but they kind of made you
do it anyway to sort of get a sense of
what it's like as well. And so yeah, that was
really fun.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Oh there's nothing more transformative in terms of your confidence
and building a community than yeah, having a go at
arts at school. I think I was really bad at
maths like just terrible. I just kept telling myself I
wasn't good at it. And I remember I joined into
like drama class because I thought it'd be a great
way to I don't do any maths. And they said, well,
(05:55):
that's great. If you're hear you've got to perform in
the production, and I was like, wow, I wasn't prepared
for that. We did a very tragic production called Back
to the Eighties, but I'll never forget it. So I thought,
we'll buger it. If I'm going to give this a go,
I am going to like try out for one of
the roles. And there was two main roles. There was
(06:16):
the nice, sweet girl and then there was the rat
bag mean girl, and I got the mean girl and
it was it was just tragic. But I just remember
those formative years. Any tragic or you know, trashy shows
that you've been involved in that are worthy of noting.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Sadly, probably more so I was an adult than in
high school. At high school, we did this amazing production
of Twelfth Night where I was playing the Jester, like
this kind of clown like character that creates a lot
of trouble for everyone. And I was like dressed up
all gothic and had black and white stockings and it
was a real punk and that was really really fun.
(06:56):
But we've got it on DVD at my mum's house.
It's not great.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
It's not good at all.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
But it was a lot of fun. It had a
lot of really weird elements, like there are a lot
of you know, dick jokes and sex jokes and stuff
sort of interwoven into the way with stage to that
kind of stuff. So that was like, oh, I don't
know about that.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Some of it was a little bit cringe.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
It's so tragic and wholesome in such a good way,
isn't it. And having this sort of time capsule of
that is pretty cool also too. What I want to
ask is, you know, I think back to those moments
when we're young people and we're just full of confidence.
You know, there's really nothing that can deter us from
expressing ourselves and getting up on stage. And I've even
(07:37):
said it on another podcast with Kimmy Lovegrove, who's a comedian,
just you know, getting up and performing in assemblies and
so on, and it sort of feels like as you
get into your adult life that confidence starts to subside
become a bit more self conscious. And so with that,
you know, what do you do to get in a
mindset of confidence and being ready to like share and
(07:59):
do you're acting and performing? Is there a process that
you under.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Takee I've got like a hype up playlist that kind
of gets me into character, or even just in general,
like I have a playlist that I kind of listen
to to get me just hyped up and ready to go,
and a lot of the time, once I can kind
of hear an audience, I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Like, yeah, we got people, this is awesome.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You kind of feed off that energy, which is really nice.
But yeah, like on set or something, it's a similar thing.
Like I'll usually just listen to music and try and
just get into the sense of I think with Planet
Lulin it was easy because the kids just have so
much energy all day and they.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Want to play and they want.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
To be silly, and it's like, yes, let's do that.
And you kind of feed off that energy as well,
which was really amazing. And I think that is as
you say, like as we get older, we kind of
lose that. A little bit. Ages ago, when I was
still living in Adelaide, I did a clowning workshop for
se year twelve's for a friend of mine who was
a teacher, because they wanted to do this clowning workshop
(08:54):
for these kids who were like seventeen, because they were
starting to get in that thing where you're get in
your head too much, because they were meant to be
in a production where they were playing young kids and
they're meant to be like, ah, you know, silly and whatever,
but they were struggling. The teachers were really struggling to
get these students to get out of their heads and
to try and play and be silly because they were
(09:14):
being all shame about it. So we did like a
clowning workshop for them to try and get used to
just being silly and rediscovering what it's like to be
a kid and you know, just sort of jump around
and that kind of thing. And I do think we
lose that a little bit, and I find myself sometimes,
you know, I guess also with the analytical stuff I
get in my head anyway, because I'm an overthinker, and
(09:36):
academia I think supports that a little bit. And it's
hard to kind of get out of that mode when
you're acting as well, So sometimes you just have to
let go and listen to a good song or something
and just jump around and get hyped up and just
play and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, it's like, yeah, you're right. It's something about that
losing of inhibitions and being playful and silly and impulsive
and going with it that I imagine in an adult life.
Yet it becomes a practice, like something you have to
sort of return back to feel like, you know, we're
living in a society where we don't prioritize the arts
(10:12):
and in terms of you know, a sector and you know,
I went to a gig recently and you can feel
how joyful and the ceremony and the connectedness that comes
when you're experiencing art. And yeah, I think as a
society we need to do more to encourage us to
get creative. Has there been any artist, or any shows,
(10:37):
or any any pieces of art that have really sort
of left this lasting impact on you and your journey
into your arts.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I mean, even last night I went went to the
opening of thirty seven at MTC and seeing this beautiful
interweaving of themes like racism, camaraderie, masculinity, this kind of
idea of being in a pocket that's like a white
town that's very small, and you being kind of the
(11:09):
only First Nations people there. It was it resonated so
much with me because that was kind of how my
brother and I were growing up a lot of the time.
But just seeing that show and how they had dance
and beautiful tableaus and use of different movement elements all
through it, as well as just amazing funny dialogue, but
then they really punch in the guts with the point.
(11:30):
It just it was so good, like I can't stop
thinking about it. I think I'm going to go see
it again. Shows like that and Barbara and the Camp
Dogs with Ostiliovich that just was amazing, This beautiful kind
of pub rock musical, but it kind of talks about
how you turn your back on responsibility for family, but
you're trying to also look after yourself, but then you're
(11:52):
trying to not be toxic to yourself. And I think
shows like that, where they really showed the humanity and
the kind of imperfection of the lead character, I think
are really important, because yeah, when you see shows and
it's just like, ah, this is the hero and they
do this and they're great, it's not really realistic. You
kind of need someone who has the faults and the
(12:14):
struggles and the ways they're just trying to get through life,
as well as the bigger picture, which is whatever's going
on in the play. Those kind of shows have definitely
been really impactful. And seeing something like The Drover's Wife
with Leah Piscell, that was.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Just, oh, that's so good, Like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
The fact that she turned something that was just like
a tiny character in a poem and made it into.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Something as big as it was.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
That kind of work is really inspiring too, because she
got what is a postcolonial story and then turned it
into something for her that was black. That was something
that was a much more important story and had so
much commentary not just on what that time might have
been like for a black woman, but also how mob
(12:59):
would were being treated and how black women were being treated,
and then how white feminism was coexisting alongside that or
it wasn't, and how children of you based on the
color of their skin.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Then it was just oh, it was just so good.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, it was just really amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Oh my gosh, I couldn't agree with you more. And
the sounds like really great recommendations that will definitely pop
in the show notes should you know, people be able
to get there or they come again. But it's so
interesting where we're out at the moment. I think around,
you know, like the works of s leapersl and yourself
and just black art and artistry and how it's done.
(13:36):
It is so powerful. I feel like there has been
an explosion of black art that has gone on to
mainstream recently. Like I thought Deadlock was incredible. I'm not
sure if you've seen that, but the way they did
Mob and We weren't just the sort of token blackness
ticker boxes, but they did them in the funny actional ways.
(13:57):
We got to see like the Arnie and so like
the two Little Titters and like got to see the
Mob how we see them. I thought, Yeah, Leah per
sales of the Drover's Wife was just so powerful. I
don't know if you've seen Lost Flowers of the Alice hard,
but that is stunning, Like the imagery of country and
getting to see all these beautiful shots and you know,
(14:18):
have our knowledge systems around the cool burning and seeing
Mob there was great. I thought even the Boy Swallows Universe,
how they had brigs in there as the sort of hero,
and you're right around that notion that you're saying about
falling in love with the flaws of the main character
because you get to see them more fickle and fragile
(14:39):
and not that sort of like protagonist or hero sort
of you get to see them being soft and yeah,
clumsy and in all of their layers. So yeah, but yeah,
you're right, there has been a lot of beautiful black
artistry recently and they sound like, yeah, incredible pieces. Flipping
to you and some of your it all works, I'd
(15:01):
love to sort of, yeah, unpack You've done a huge
amount of things, and I'd love to just sort of, yeah,
explore some of your projects and some of the pieces
of writing or some of the creative performing and acting
that has been Yeah, the most special for you.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think because some of the projects have been a
part of you know, have been you know, created by friends, which.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Is really wonderful as well.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Planet Loonlind is definitely the huge one for me, just
because it was like the biggest thing I've done, and
it's just it brings so much joy and getting to
play a character that's just funny and doesn't have to
do tragic stuff is kind of nice. For a change.
I mean, it's nice to have a mix, but something
like this, I'd never done anything like this before.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
This was really really cool, and I do.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Think doing work with Sammy Jay and that kind of
comedic side of things was a huge part of that
is that it kind of put me out there a
little bit, which was really nice. And I discovered that
I really like comedy. I actually like being a massive
dog and it's just kind of what I do naturally,
I think, but yeah, I get it to do shows
like there was this really amazing production of Holy Day
(16:03):
that I did, Like I've done Holiday a couple of times,
and I just love that play so much. It's written
by Andrew Vivell, who's a non indigenous man, but he
wrote it under the supervision and guidance of Ghana elders
in Adelaide. I really loved that play because it has
this sense of like you see all these awful things happen,
but at the end there's a moment where basically the
(16:24):
main character kind of points to the audience and like
you did this, like you white fellows did this to us,
and this is our history and you have to own
this because you don't get to just come to the
theater and sit and watch a bunch of black fellows
die on stage, and that's your black theater for the night. No,
you get to sit and watch this and witness what
you did. And it's so rough, like the way that
(16:45):
the imagery and it it's really because I don't want
to do spoilers because no doubt it'll get staged again.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
But yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Really really good and it's brutal and it doesn't pull
its punches and it just says you have to watch this,
you have to bear witness, which is good because so.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The Holy Days a theater performance, it's interesting. So I
was just having a quick look. Yeah, it looks like
a really chilling kind of mystery, and so it's interesting
to hear that audience engagement and because you know, in
order to change or evoke a sense of action, people
do need to feel somewhat uncomfortable. But yeah, how do
you ravel them up so they can, you know, go
(17:20):
out and be courageous and take some action. So that's
that's really interesting. Will be back you, mob right after
this short break. I'm really keen to pick up on
(17:41):
your what you're talking about at Planet Lulin, which is
you know, ABC's new kids comedy and you're you're playing
the role of Principal Cruise. I understand. So can you
talk to me about Principal Cruise and the role and
just a bit about more about the show, because this
sounds like, as you mentioned, it's so nice to see
(18:02):
black follows do things for joy and for laughter and
for our young charge ands as well. Like to see
other sisters on screen is just so important. So yeah,
keen to hear more about that particular project.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
If I may, looking at a young girl who she's
kind of part alien, part human, and she's starting to
I guess as she's getting older, she's hitting that age
where you know puberty would usually hit, and with that,
she's realizing she has special kind of abilities because she's
an alien, and so it's causing a bit of drama
for her trying to get through school and also you know,
(18:37):
deal with that. And she's got two amazing little friends
who help her get through that. And my character, Principal Cruise,
is their teacher and sort of in the background and
I don't know, I kind of interact with the kids
and pop in and laugh, and the kids really love
my character, which is so wonderful because you get to
just play and it's really really just so much joy
(18:57):
in it.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
And yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Prince Cruise is a bit of a dork and she
thinks she's pretty funny. I made a really dorky playlist
for her with lots of nineties hip hop and the
Spice Girls and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Hey, that sounds like my regular playlist.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
So good music, and so she's kind of yeah, just
a really she's kind of like a big kid herself,
I think, and that's why the kids love her so much.
There's another teacher played by Zachary Ruin. He is kind
of trying to be friends with the kids, but I
think the kids pick up on that, and so they're
just kind of like nah. And he's a big stress
head too, which doesn't help. But he was really wonderful
(19:37):
to bounce off of. He's really funny. And Yeah, it
was just a really amazing show and just the detail
that goes into a lot of the props on set,
which just blew my mind because they've got like a
puppet dragon and they've got like a space ship and it's, oh,
it's just very cool. It was really wonderful, So.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
It's kind of like a futuristic sort of set definitely
set in the present time, but yeah, it does have
that kind of the alien aspect I think is a
bit futuristic with like the spaceship and you meet like
this tiny alien played by Cassie rob who's just insanely good.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
She's just this tiny little thing that steals the show.
But she has like this cool outfit and it's Oh,
it's really really awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Amazing and where can people catch this? Where as it
airing now.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
The iView all ten episodes and it's been recently put
up on.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
YouTube as well.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Oh amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
It's really nice because it kind of has the same
vibers like I don't know, like the Ferrels with the
puppets and with like around the Twist, with their kind
of weird stories that they have, And I think it's
really nice to have that kind of style back. It
kind of makes me think of what it was like
growing up as a kid in the nineties with these
really weird, kind of playful stories.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Oh well, that's exciting. I mean, you mentioned at the
start of our conversation that you write and you're also
doing your PhD. I've got to ask you how do
you balance all of the roles and how do you
what's your sort of practice or person or things that
light you up outside of your deadly playlist, Like how
do you keep up with those many roles.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Us off to do? Because you know, the way industries
have been sort of structured, mob have to often wear
many hats. I think we have to become quite skilled
in different ways. Finished my PhD last year and I
began an academic role at Swinburne this year, which I'm
you know, doing as well as the acting stuff, and
(21:35):
it's kind of an easy juggle. I think I'm used
to doing more than one thing at a time, and
if I need to take time off to sort of
focus on a bigger project or something like that, I
generally just do that and make sure that I'm sort
of quarantining time just for that. I think it's really
important and that's something that I've had to learn to
do because I have in the past tried to juggle
too much and get exhausted and it doesn't really work.
(21:57):
And also you kind of only class everything if you
don't concentrate on one thing at a time. Sometimes you
just need to and I yeah, a lot of the
time I have to actually just be strict and say, Okay,
I need to put that over there for now and
go over here and focus on this. But I think
prioritizing stuff that makes me happy as well has been
something that I've really started doing a lot more of
(22:18):
this year, which is including things like seeing my friends
and trying to get out in nature and I need
to see my family more and making sure you're taking
time for you and for rest. One of my friends, SJ,
she does this amazing yoga class online because she's she's
actually like overseas and she does these really beautiful yin
yoga classes. But she does like visualizations and kind of
(22:40):
helps you because you know when your mind wanders when
you're in the middle of posers and that kind of stuff,
she kind of helps you be okay with that, but
then just kind of let that stuff go so you
can come back, which I think is really good practice
just for life, because sometimes if you're in the middle
of something, you might be thinking about the next thing
you need to do, or you might be thinking about
something else. So instead of being hard on your self
about it, you just kind of go, okay, yeah, you
(23:02):
can have your moment, but then I've got to let
you go and focus on what I'm doing, or even
just to rest. And it's that's been something that has
been very helpful and really important.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Such beautiful tips, and I guess what I'm sort of
hearing is, yeah, the importance of boundaries and sort of
being more targeted with your time and like you say,
compartmentalizing things like we can do it all, but just
not all at the same time times if that simple,
isn't it? And I think that the mind body connection
(23:34):
and doing yoga and visualizations and just having an ability
to surrender and learning to let go is a beautiful
practice which I think we could all possibly benefit from
by the sounds of it. It's always good to know
what people are doing because I guess we see like
the successes of things, but behind the scenes, as you mentioned,
like as black followers in an anti black world, we
(23:55):
do have to work double as hard with less of
the resources, less of the support, and sometimes in unsafe industries,
sometimes where there's not a lot of black fellows, like, yeah,
it can be tricky. So finding ways to really nurture
ourselves and rest and say no where we can is
so so important. So thank you for sharing that. I
(24:15):
want to ask you about that question too, about the
industry and thinking about you know, as I mentioned, there
is an explosion of black art and we're all all
artists and storytellers and dancers and performers and in our
own right, in our own way, whether we do that
culturally on stage or whether we do it for community.
You know, we're all sort of creative beings as Black followers.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Hey Aali, And that was part of my research as well.
I was looking at how you know, Corrobboree was, you know,
at the beginning, a main source of storytelling, and that's
how we kind of come together and celebrate and also
mourn and also you know, find ways to communicate. And
I think performance is something that is very embedded in
(25:00):
mob anyway, like those yarns that happen or those dances
that happen. That kind of performativity I think is very
much in us.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, it is really, Like I mean, it'd be so
interesting to I could unpack your PhD all day by
the sounds of it. But yeah, like you say, I
mean this kind of coming together to exchange an expression,
a feeling, and you know that's the thing I think
for like non Aboriginal people who are listening when we
(25:32):
look at ancestrally in ancient times, you know, the theology,
so the way of social order and governance. Most things
were commemorated through song or dance, whether it's a birth
or death, a celebration, a gathering, just of coming together
for just joy. Like we actually had ways of coming together,
(25:52):
not for tribal reasons, just for pure joy and connectivity.
So yeah, it really is ingrained in all of us,
which is kind of you know, it's not surprising we
see a lot of performers and I think it's growing,
It's definitely growing. I still think that there is a
long way to go where we see like like the
(26:12):
one percents, you know, like the like the Jessica Mowboys
or the people who like I feel like there is
probably a long way to go where we see more
of people at that caliber in influence in Australia. I
feel like we've got so much deadly black talent that
could be there up there. I want to ask you
about the industry. You know what you know, you've been
(26:33):
working in this space for a while. I mean, what
how do you see the future of this creative field evolving,
and you know, can more be done to make sure
that mob get pathways into the arts and get supported
when they're in there, and have mentoring and guidance so
they don't navigate all this in isolation? Like, what are
(26:54):
your thoughts on all of that?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
The diversity kind of situation in the performing arts industry
is definitely improving. It's when I started my PhD, it
wasn't that great and now as we look at it now,
we're seeing mob everywhere, which is really amazing, and you know,
people of color, queer folks. We're seeing more disabled actors
in film and TV and theater and that kind of stuff.
(27:18):
I do think that needs to be improved even more.
I think disabled representation is still lagging. I think that's
been one of the more recent ones. I think that
they need to sort of get their shit together with.
But yeah, I think yeah, I do think it's just
going to keep getting better. Whenever people are like, oh,
how do you think about representation now, I'm like, they
can always be more. It shouldn't be token characters that
are there because of their ethnicity or whatever it's or
(27:42):
they're kind of there to serve as a function for
a white story. It's nice seeing stories like Lea's in
that Lost Flowers of Alice's Heart.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
That was just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
She was a standalone character who had her own journey
as well as existing with her partner, and it was
just so beautiful and so important. And I'm really loving
seeing queer stories just not being like it's like, oh
my god, this is all lesbian. It's like, no, they're
just in love and it's just part of the story,
you know. It's they're not going, hey, look at what
we're doing. We're trying to do representation. It's just people
(28:13):
who are being people and living in the world, and
it's just really nice to see that. That's definitely improving
in the industry. I think it's really making a difference
because you know, as we were young ones, we weren't
represented that well on TV. Like in Australia we had maybe,
like in the early two thousands, we had deb Mailman
who was just our hero. But that's a lot of
(28:33):
burn to carry because she was croly won.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And maybe Ernie Dingo I remember, you know, in The
Great Outdoors and when I was thinking about this and
a few episodes we were talking about it I think
it might have been Gosh, going to the memory right,
maybe season one. I was talking to Bianca Hunt about
this and we're thinking who there was, and we were, yeah,
it was Ernie Dingo, Deborah Mailman, and I remember the
(28:59):
year that Samantha Harris won the Dolly Model Search and
she was on the first magazine. Because when you're in
the noughties, for all of our little young listeners, we
used to have to go down to the news agency
and buy five dollars singles and like three dollar magazine.
They were the ways that we would consume our information,
(29:19):
not like on Facebook or TikTok. And I used to
go down like once a week with a little bit
of pocket money or whatever we could scround around or
whatever I'd get working at the pizza shop. And yeah,
we remember the day of going in and seeing her
on the front magazine and just being like totally blown away, thinking, Wow,
there's someone out there in the world that looks like
my mom or my aunties or my sister or you know,
(29:42):
and it's just how important that representation is. And so
it's good to hear that it is growing. I mean,
as you say, all industries could improve, but it's great
to see that it is definitely growing, and you're right
that it's done in ways that makes sense for where
we are now. It's not done that we're just you know,
painted as the deficit or the other. We've got our
(30:03):
own storylines and with depth and dimension, and it's done
in ways that feel right for us.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Because people like Bianca are kind of working behind the
scenes and trying to make sure mob are being put
forward for stuff, and people are writing and making sure
that diverse stories are being put out there, which is
really really good. Like I think there is more of
an effort to make sure diverse writers and diverse kind
of consultants are being involved in these processes. So stuff's
(30:32):
being done right, and it's being done in a way
that is quite safe. So I think that's part of
it too, Like a lot of people behind the scenes
are doing really important work to make sure stuff self determined,
and I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I think that's the key, like what you're saying around
this notion of not just playing the character but writing
the story, you know. I think from memory with Deadlock,
there are two queer women and they both, as I understand,
like worked with community, like built there all a Obviously
it blows out production budgets and things, but that came
through the story that the depth of the character was there.
(31:07):
What do you think it would take to imagine a
world or a time where there is an all black
production from writers to runners, to actors to make up.
Is that where we can imagine and aspire to be
one day?
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Like in some remote communities, because I've been hearing there
are little media projects going on in communities, so I
wouldn't be surprised if stuff like that's already happening. But
I mean, I think it would need to be funded
by government because if MOB had to take it out
of their own pocket, that would be a bit annoying.
But I think, oh, that would be amazing. Could you
imagine there'd be the funnest set to be on That.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Would be just Yeah, you could imagine the quality of
the art and the performance that would come through.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
The productions like ILVIGERI do a really good job. I mean,
obviously they sometimes have to go to bigger venues and
that kind of stuff, or they might have to have
the odd producer or whatever, but for the most part
it's mostly mob. Even just having that kind of dynamic.
Working with just Mob it's so nice because you don't
feel like there's any judgment. You don't feel like you
have to explain things or code change you like you
(32:10):
know when you sometimes do have to do that kind
of oh no, I meant this, And it's nice not
having to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I think being in an environment with just Mob is
it's so good. It feels like you can breathe.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I mean, it's even similar in our line of work
where we bring titters together to jan and when they're
with a black woman or a black healer or a
black mentor the richness of the conversation or the deadliness
of what comes through because they're safe. So it would
be really interesting. What's in the pipeline for you now
that you're done with Principal Cruise and Planet Lulan. Any
(32:45):
future projects that you can talk about in twenty twenty four,
And where's your vision for your PhD now that it's
done getting that out there and talking about it gone.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
What's happening with Planet Lulan. We'll see what goes on there.
I've got to show coming up in I think it's
June or July. I'm not sure. I'd need to check that.
We're doing a remount of the show Inside Out that
we did last year, and I am potentially doing another
theater thing. I'm just waiting to hear back. I think
they're waiting on funding or a cultural consulting stage. I'm
(33:17):
not sure, but yeah, I'm just waiting to hear back
on that one. And yeah, I do like regular voice
over stuff, so I end up doing a lot of
that with my PhD. I'm making it into a book,
which is interesting, and editing your own work is a
bit in it's a bit so crushing because it's like, oh,
what did I write before?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's just yeah, and just you would feel attached to
every single word on that bloody page. I'm after finessing
it for what four years.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I've actually it's been kind of the opposite because there
are moments where I'm like, no, that sucks, I'm cutting
all of that, and then I have to actually go
like check with someone. It's like, am I being too
harsh and cutting this? Because I feel like I'm cutting
a lot.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I think that's a hard task to do yourself, to
be honest, like the emotional components, so like, yeah, maybe
being too overly critical and being willing to let go.
Maybe you need a bit of a brains trust.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Actually do with the turning a thesis into a book.
You would normally give it to another editor to do,
but because I've done the editing stuff, I also want
to make sure that there aren't any gaps, because I
want to have a look and update it and make
sure that stuff's current and making sure that I haven't
missed anything, and maybe give it a bit of a
once over before I give it to an editor for
them to deal with, because I just want to make
(34:27):
sure it's reading it. Yeah, I've had got a couple
of friends who are like, yeah, let me read your thesis,
and I've sent it to them, and as I've been
going through and editing it, I'm like, oh, wow, this sucks.
I really hope they didn't read the whole thing because
this is terrible.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well that's exciting. I mean the expenditure on the soul
and the spirit to create and develop your thesis and
do your PhD and then to sort of have that
done and then not turn it into something I would
imagine you want it out in the world, and so
how great to turn it into a book and nice
decided to take all of the few visions of your
(35:00):
passions with you know, the academia and the writing and
now you know, getting that out to the world.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
To be such amazing people like I don't I didn't
want to go to waste because I got to yarn
with the most amazing people working in the industry. And
I want their words out there and their wisdom out
there because they they taught me so much, and I
want to make sure that knowledge is available to other
people who might be wanting to do that kind of collaboration. Yeah,
just yearning up with mob like that and having that kind.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Of knowledge is just such a privilege.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I want to make sure that it's not wasted just
on me. I want everyone to read it.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
And what can people expect from your PhD? You mentioned
before around the power of corrobbery, and you know, now
hearing that you've had some yarns and conversations which I imagine
would just really sort of anchor something like this into
real life or for us anyway. But yeah, what can
people expect when going through your PhD?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
It just looks at the history of First Nations collaboration
with non Indigenous people in the performing arts, let's sort
of do a bit of a brief history from Corrobberie
through to establishing black theater companies, to mob being represented
in non indigenous productions, and then sort of where we're
at and how protocols have been written to make sure
people are safe, and also looking at case studies of
(36:17):
other productions that have happened and how it worked and
how it didn't.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
That's so fascinating because even as I understand with black
theater in so called Australia, like you know Redfern which
was like kind of the Redfern Theater Company, which you
know Uncle Gary Foley was really instrumental in. And even
my uncle, I'm sure you'd know my uncle P J. Roses.
He's one of the founders of Irabiddy. I can never
say it's irabidy some words. Yeah, okay, I always get
(36:44):
shamed of, so I just go. Yeah. Like these places
were set up as Ebby centers, and there was like
political backdrops of these places. They were to have sort
of like any civil rights movements need places for art
and expression and creating, and it would sort of be
the political backdrops of the theater and the juxtaposed between
(37:06):
art and justice and all of that, so that it
would be so fascinating for people to sort of understand
in your PhD about how these industry sort of trends
muted one another and work together. That sounds really interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I can make it sound less academic and more as
interesting as it is because we have such a huge
history of black theater and black performance that has been
very politically minded, and I think it's just such a
really effective way of getting stories across. And honestly, I mean,
I hate to bring it up, but like post referendum,
I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of art
comes out from this, because you know, we've been through
(37:42):
the ring and like a lot of pain and a
lot of division with.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Mob about points of view. But I think it would be.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Really good to see what kind of stories and art
and everything comes out from it to sort of stick
it to the rest of the country because it's definitely needed.
I feel like these moments do bring about really great
stories and great art. Least it's a tiny silver lining
in that situation.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, it's so fascinating to think about that when you
really delve deep into it, when you think about these
waves of oppression, all these waves of like collective or
global consciousness changing and the art or the feelings that
I felt and then the art that's produced. We're going
to see a big resurgence of more political black music
(38:25):
in some way. Yeah, so fascinating. We'll put all of
your PhD and the work that's coming up moving forward
for you in our show notes. I wanted to also
ask about Inside Out, so you mentioned you will be
starring in that in later in the year. What can
people expect coming? And Yeah, watching you in Inside Out fast.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Year as part of the yur and Boy Festival. It's
written by Muriel Spirum.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Oh deadly love Muriel. Shout out Muriel, like she.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Just turns out scripts like nobody's business. I was like,
how do you write like that? You're amazing, such a
talented person and I always love working with her and
Monica Carro as well. It's just beautiful. It's beautiful group.
It's nice to work with them. And it's a comedy.
It's a bit weird and I think it's good. It's like,
I'm trying to think of how to describe it. It's
(39:15):
kind of got seventies vibes because it's got like that
whole Shaft kind of vibe. You know, it's like that
detective yeah, Foxy Brown kind of thing, but at the
same time it's really sci fi. So yeah, and it's
a comedy. It's very very funny, and it's really cool
mounted in sometime this year and that'll be really really
fun and yeah, obscene, which is great.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yeah, and it's nice to sort of here that you
get to come back to a role or a character
or some you know, a place where you've already I
think you just grow and build and evolve on that.
So that's that's that's really nice to see.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Excuse to hang out with them too, just makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Oh yeah, what a barreler laughs, I can imagine. Wow. Well,
it sounds like there's some great things in the hypeline
and we're so excited to see where you evolve. I
guess my final question for you is, and this might
be a tricky one, but you know, in thinking about
all the work you're doing in writing with your PhD,
(40:14):
creative performing, working at Swindburn and acting, what do you
hope that people take away from the work that you're doing.
But what do you want to invoke a sense of
or what do you want people to feel or what
do you want people to think when they're engaging with
this work. And it's going to be hard because you've
got so many different tentacles, but yeah, what are your
thoughts with them as tentacles?
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Because I really like octopuses.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Work because I'm in a bit of a unique position
with my brother and I that our culture is predominantly
being withheld from us a lot of the time, and
so I kind of like to see myself as someone
that facilitates space for people who have that cultural knowledge.
I'm able to kind of go, Okay, you know stuff,
you help with this, and you know, you be amazing,
(41:01):
and I will help you with whatever you need.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
And like, I'm kind of like the middleman with that.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
A lot of the time, and I think I like
to sort of see myself as someone who facilitates people
with cultural knowledge and be able to help them with
whatever they want to do, or help people try to
make sure stories are being told ethically, Like in the
academic space, that cultural safety stuff is something that I'm
really really keen on and making sure that mob are
safe and making sure that stories are being told proper
(41:27):
way or they're not being told at all.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
If that is the wish of those.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Cultural knowledge holders, like making sure that mob are being
looked after.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And they're okay.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
That's kind of what I like to do, especially in
the context of like the performing arts and stories and
how we go about these things. Because I don't necessarily
have cultural authority on things. I want to protect or
facilitate and help people that do. And that's kind of
I think I'm a good kind of middleman for that.
And I guess with my acting stuff, with the more
(41:57):
creative side, I think, I don't know. I hope people
just enjoy it and learn something, you know, whenever that's
kind of relevant. I think, yeah, hopefully, yeah, that they
just enjoy it and they really have a good time
watching what we do and appreciate the stories. And I
think that's yeah. That's probably the most important thing for me,
is to make sure people are able to lose themselves
(42:19):
in the stories. I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah, that's sort of that escapism or that ability to
experience a new perspective or a new reality, or to
confront or challenge their own realities, sort of taking them
on that sort of journey spiritually. It's really powerful. Well
you're doing it's yeah, out here doing the damn thing.
(42:45):
So we are so so grateful for you because, you know,
for circling back to where we started. You know. Yeah,
there's something so vulnerable and intimate about putting your art
out there, and that's why probably ninety five percent of
the population ain't doing it. So yeah, really grateful that
you're out here doing that and also simultaneously creating spaces
to bring people in there, like with cultural safety and
(43:08):
brokering people to be their best selves is a very
important role. We call it the blackground or the black
up here at Black Bottle, you know, how we can
support people to shine and take up spaces that they
want to So it's a very important role. So yeah,
thank you, thank you for today, and just excited to
see where what's next for you Sis.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
The acting stuff, you never know, the stuff always pops
up at the last minute, which is kind of cool.
It's always the best projects, I think.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, absolutely, well, we're going to pop all this in
our show notes. Thank you so much for sitting down
with me today, Carusa. You are an incredible system and
deadly things and just so grateful for your time today.
I'm to hang out no anytime anytime. Thank you so
much for listening, you mam. If you're vibing this season
(44:01):
of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us
some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in
contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot
Carolinecow dot com dot au
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to Yarning Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations
stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
proud barber woman and founder of Black Waddel Coaching and Consulting,
(00:30):
Caroline cow. We acknowledge the Runderi people and elders where
this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands
that you are listening in from today. It always was
and always will be unseated Aboriginal and tourist Red Islander Land. Well,
(00:54):
I am so excited about sitting down with my next guest,
gris Lee. Kurisa is doing incredible things in the arts. Performer,
an actor, a writer, someone with their hands in many
pies and I'm excited to unpack them all and unravel
them all in today's conversation. So thank you so much
(01:17):
for being here today.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Well, thank you so much for having me sus It's
really wonderful and I'm such a fan of the show.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Oh, thank you. I was thinking about where we first met.
Actually we've had the pleasure of meeting before. I don't
know if you remember this, but when we did the
work in the schools, we went into some primary schools.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Part of the Deadly Questions campaign. Yeah, that's all right.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
That was such a great day, wasn't it. I was
a last minute ringing to come with some black talent
and I was like, yeah, I can come along. And
we got there and we got to talk about our
stories and our experiences and what a treaty is and
what it isn't for young people in primary scope and
it was just such a deadly experience.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Hey, it was really cute.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
It's always nice to sort of, you know, distinguish where
we've all met because we've got such a small community.
I think that's the thing people don't realize. So yeah,
it's nice to sort of see full circle and what
you've gone on to accomplished since that there was maybe
five years ago. I'm so excited to unpack your journey
since that time at the schools. But as we always
do on this show, we like to start by getting
(02:27):
to know you, and we'd love to know, Yeah, who's
your mom and a little bit about yeah, where you
grew up and your family.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I'm a longer woman and my brother and I were
born on Wemblewember Country in swan Hill, and yeah, we
grew up there sort of by the river and mucking
around and love and life. And then we eventually moved
to matt Gambia in South Australia, oh and It Country,
and we lived there for quite a while, and my
family still lived there. I moved from there to go
(02:55):
to Adelaide to go to UNI. I mean I was
going to go do psychology. You I don't know why,
but then I ended up auditioning for Flinder's Drama Center
on a whim, and because my drama teacher at high
school had mentioned the place because he graduated from there.
And I auditioned and got in and went there for
four years, stayed in Adelaide for a bit, and then
(03:17):
moved over here to try and get a bit more
work and to do a PhD. And yeah, just see
what happens. I love Melbourne so much.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Wow, that is such an interesting journey from swan Hill
to Mount Gambia to falling into acting, which is now,
you know, a part of your career. I know that
you're such a multifaceted person, so acting and creative performance
wasn't always in your crystal ball. It wasn't something that
you were interested in as a young person.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Didn't think it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Was actually possible because living in a small town your
options are quite limited. So I thought maybe if I
do some kind of like psychology course through correspondence, then
it might be more possible for me to have a
career and stay home and that kind of stuff. But yeah,
in the end, I had to kind of get out
of there, because you know, when you just know that
you're done with a place and in order to grow,
(04:09):
you need to leave. And I think that was one
of those things. As a kid, I loved writing more
than anything else. I really loved writing, and then got
into the acting stuff. But yeah, I seemed to find
a way to balance both, which I think is really nice.
It sort of exercises different parts of my brain, which
I really love.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
And So, if you were to think back in high school,
did you do any theater or any performance.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, well, I was initially at what I think they're
called like area schools, where they're sort of preps to
year twelve, and I was there for a bit and
we did sort of like dance stuff, and I did
gymnastics as well, So that was kind of like that.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Performance aspect a little bit as well. And then I ended.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Up getting kicked out of that school because I was
a rat back. And then I went to another school,
Matt Gambia High School, and that was where I met
my drama teacher, John Crautch, and he just kind of
threw me into all the theater things like Okay, you
need to do this class, you need to do this class.
And I did as much theater as I could. I
became one of the theater nerds. It was really awesome
and made the most amazing friends who I'm still friends
(05:09):
with now.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
And how we did lots of Shakespeare.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
That school was very heavy on the Shakespeare, which kind
of contributed to my already existing obsession with Shakespeare. And
we did musicals and that kind of stuff as well,
which I mean wasn't the best for me because I'm
not the best singer, but they kind of made you
do it anyway to sort of get a sense of
what it's like as well. And so yeah, that was
really fun.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Oh there's nothing more transformative in terms of your confidence
and building a community than yeah, having a go at
arts at school. I think I was really bad at
maths like just terrible. I just kept telling myself I
wasn't good at it. And I remember I joined into
like drama class because I thought it'd be a great
way to I don't do any maths. And they said, well,
(05:55):
that's great. If you're hear you've got to perform in
the production, and I was like, wow, I wasn't prepared
for that. We did a very tragic production called Back
to the Eighties, but I'll never forget it. So I thought,
we'll buger it. If I'm going to give this a go,
I am going to like try out for one of
the roles. And there was two main roles. There was
(06:16):
the nice, sweet girl and then there was the rat
bag mean girl, and I got the mean girl and
it was it was just tragic. But I just remember
those formative years. Any tragic or you know, trashy shows
that you've been involved in that are worthy of noting.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Sadly, probably more so I was an adult than in
high school. At high school, we did this amazing production
of Twelfth Night where I was playing the Jester, like
this kind of clown like character that creates a lot
of trouble for everyone. And I was like dressed up
all gothic and had black and white stockings and it
was a real punk and that was really really fun.
(06:56):
But we've got it on DVD at my mum's house.
It's not great.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
It's not good at all.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
But it was a lot of fun. It had a
lot of really weird elements, like there are a lot
of you know, dick jokes and sex jokes and stuff
sort of interwoven into the way with stage to that
kind of stuff. So that was like, oh, I don't
know about that.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Some of it was a little bit cringe.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
It's so tragic and wholesome in such a good way,
isn't it. And having this sort of time capsule of
that is pretty cool also too. What I want to
ask is, you know, I think back to those moments
when we're young people and we're just full of confidence.
You know, there's really nothing that can deter us from
expressing ourselves and getting up on stage. And I've even
(07:37):
said it on another podcast with Kimmy Lovegrove, who's a comedian,
just you know, getting up and performing in assemblies and
so on, and it sort of feels like as you
get into your adult life that confidence starts to subside
become a bit more self conscious. And so with that,
you know, what do you do to get in a
mindset of confidence and being ready to like share and
(07:59):
do you're acting and performing? Is there a process that
you under.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Takee I've got like a hype up playlist that kind
of gets me into character, or even just in general,
like I have a playlist that I kind of listen
to to get me just hyped up and ready to go,
and a lot of the time, once I can kind
of hear an audience, I'm.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Like, yeah, we got people, this is awesome.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
You kind of feed off that energy, which is really nice.
But yeah, like on set or something, it's a similar thing.
Like I'll usually just listen to music and try and
just get into the sense of I think with Planet
Lulin it was easy because the kids just have so
much energy all day and they.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
Want to play and they want.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
To be silly, and it's like, yes, let's do that.
And you kind of feed off that energy as well,
which was really amazing. And I think that is as
you say, like as we get older, we kind of
lose that. A little bit. Ages ago, when I was
still living in Adelaide, I did a clowning workshop for
se year twelve's for a friend of mine who was
a teacher, because they wanted to do this clowning workshop
(08:54):
for these kids who were like seventeen, because they were
starting to get in that thing where you're get in
your head too much, because they were meant to be
in a production where they were playing young kids and
they're meant to be like, ah, you know, silly and whatever,
but they were struggling. The teachers were really struggling to
get these students to get out of their heads and
to try and play and be silly because they were
(09:14):
being all shame about it. So we did like a
clowning workshop for them to try and get used to
just being silly and rediscovering what it's like to be
a kid and you know, just sort of jump around
and that kind of thing. And I do think we
lose that a little bit, and I find myself sometimes,
you know, I guess also with the analytical stuff I
get in my head anyway, because I'm an overthinker, and
(09:36):
academia I think supports that a little bit. And it's
hard to kind of get out of that mode when
you're acting as well, So sometimes you just have to
let go and listen to a good song or something
and just jump around and get hyped up and just
play and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Yeah, it's like, yeah, you're right. It's something about that
losing of inhibitions and being playful and silly and impulsive
and going with it that I imagine in an adult life.
Yet it becomes a practice, like something you have to
sort of return back to feel like, you know, we're
living in a society where we don't prioritize the arts
(10:12):
and in terms of you know, a sector and you know,
I went to a gig recently and you can feel
how joyful and the ceremony and the connectedness that comes
when you're experiencing art. And yeah, I think as a
society we need to do more to encourage us to
get creative. Has there been any artist, or any shows,
(10:37):
or any any pieces of art that have really sort
of left this lasting impact on you and your journey
into your arts.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I mean, even last night I went went to the
opening of thirty seven at MTC and seeing this beautiful
interweaving of themes like racism, camaraderie, masculinity, this kind of
idea of being in a pocket that's like a white
town that's very small, and you being kind of the
(11:09):
only First Nations people there. It was it resonated so
much with me because that was kind of how my
brother and I were growing up a lot of the time.
But just seeing that show and how they had dance
and beautiful tableaus and use of different movement elements all
through it, as well as just amazing funny dialogue, but
then they really punch in the guts with the point.
(11:30):
It just it was so good, like I can't stop
thinking about it. I think I'm going to go see
it again. Shows like that and Barbara and the Camp
Dogs with Ostiliovich that just was amazing, This beautiful kind
of pub rock musical, but it kind of talks about
how you turn your back on responsibility for family, but
you're trying to also look after yourself, but then you're
(11:52):
trying to not be toxic to yourself. And I think
shows like that, where they really showed the humanity and
the kind of imperfection of the lead character, I think
are really important, because yeah, when you see shows and
it's just like, ah, this is the hero and they
do this and they're great, it's not really realistic. You
kind of need someone who has the faults and the
(12:14):
struggles and the ways they're just trying to get through life,
as well as the bigger picture, which is whatever's going
on in the play. Those kind of shows have definitely
been really impactful. And seeing something like The Drover's Wife
with Leah Piscell, that was.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Just, oh, that's so good, Like, oh my god.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
The fact that she turned something that was just like
a tiny character in a poem and made it into.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Something as big as it was.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
That kind of work is really inspiring too, because she
got what is a postcolonial story and then turned it
into something for her that was black. That was something
that was a much more important story and had so
much commentary not just on what that time might have
been like for a black woman, but also how mob
(12:59):
would were being treated and how black women were being treated,
and then how white feminism was coexisting alongside that or
it wasn't, and how children of you based on the
color of their skin.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Then it was just oh, it was just so good.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, it was just really amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Oh my gosh, I couldn't agree with you more. And
the sounds like really great recommendations that will definitely pop
in the show notes should you know, people be able
to get there or they come again. But it's so
interesting where we're out at the moment. I think around,
you know, like the works of s leapersl and yourself
and just black art and artistry and how it's done.
(13:36):
It is so powerful. I feel like there has been
an explosion of black art that has gone on to
mainstream recently. Like I thought Deadlock was incredible. I'm not
sure if you've seen that, but the way they did
Mob and We weren't just the sort of token blackness
ticker boxes, but they did them in the funny actional ways.
(13:57):
We got to see like the Arnie and so like
the two Little Titters and like got to see the
Mob how we see them. I thought, Yeah, Leah per
sales of the Drover's Wife was just so powerful. I
don't know if you've seen Lost Flowers of the Alice hard,
but that is stunning, Like the imagery of country and
getting to see all these beautiful shots and you know,
(14:18):
have our knowledge systems around the cool burning and seeing
Mob there was great. I thought even the Boy Swallows Universe,
how they had brigs in there as the sort of hero,
and you're right around that notion that you're saying about
falling in love with the flaws of the main character
because you get to see them more fickle and fragile
(14:39):
and not that sort of like protagonist or hero sort
of you get to see them being soft and yeah,
clumsy and in all of their layers. So yeah, but yeah,
you're right, there has been a lot of beautiful black
artistry recently and they sound like, yeah, incredible pieces. Flipping
to you and some of your it all works, I'd
(15:01):
love to sort of, yeah, unpack You've done a huge
amount of things, and I'd love to just sort of, yeah,
explore some of your projects and some of the pieces
of writing or some of the creative performing and acting
that has been Yeah, the most special for you.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
I think because some of the projects have been a
part of you know, have been you know, created by friends, which.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Is really wonderful as well.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Planet Loonlind is definitely the huge one for me, just
because it was like the biggest thing I've done, and
it's just it brings so much joy and getting to
play a character that's just funny and doesn't have to
do tragic stuff is kind of nice. For a change.
I mean, it's nice to have a mix, but something
like this, I'd never done anything like this before.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
This was really really cool, and I do.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Think doing work with Sammy Jay and that kind of
comedic side of things was a huge part of that
is that it kind of put me out there a
little bit, which was really nice. And I discovered that
I really like comedy. I actually like being a massive
dog and it's just kind of what I do naturally,
I think, but yeah, I get it to do shows
like there was this really amazing production of Holy Day
(16:03):
that I did, Like I've done Holiday a couple of times,
and I just love that play so much. It's written
by Andrew Vivell, who's a non indigenous man, but he
wrote it under the supervision and guidance of Ghana elders
in Adelaide. I really loved that play because it has
this sense of like you see all these awful things happen,
but at the end there's a moment where basically the
(16:24):
main character kind of points to the audience and like
you did this, like you white fellows did this to us,
and this is our history and you have to own
this because you don't get to just come to the
theater and sit and watch a bunch of black fellows
die on stage, and that's your black theater for the night. No,
you get to sit and watch this and witness what
you did. And it's so rough, like the way that
(16:45):
the imagery and it it's really because I don't want
to do spoilers because no doubt it'll get staged again.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
But yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Really really good and it's brutal and it doesn't pull
its punches and it just says you have to watch this,
you have to bear witness, which is good because so.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The Holy Days a theater performance, it's interesting. So I
was just having a quick look. Yeah, it looks like
a really chilling kind of mystery, and so it's interesting
to hear that audience engagement and because you know, in
order to change or evoke a sense of action, people
do need to feel somewhat uncomfortable. But yeah, how do
you ravel them up so they can, you know, go
(17:20):
out and be courageous and take some action. So that's
that's really interesting. Will be back you, mob right after
this short break. I'm really keen to pick up on
(17:41):
your what you're talking about at Planet Lulin, which is
you know, ABC's new kids comedy and you're you're playing
the role of Principal Cruise. I understand. So can you
talk to me about Principal Cruise and the role and
just a bit about more about the show, because this
sounds like, as you mentioned, it's so nice to see
(18:02):
black follows do things for joy and for laughter and
for our young charge ands as well. Like to see
other sisters on screen is just so important. So yeah,
keen to hear more about that particular project.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
If I may, looking at a young girl who she's
kind of part alien, part human, and she's starting to
I guess as she's getting older, she's hitting that age
where you know puberty would usually hit, and with that,
she's realizing she has special kind of abilities because she's
an alien, and so it's causing a bit of drama
for her trying to get through school and also you know,
(18:37):
deal with that. And she's got two amazing little friends
who help her get through that. And my character, Principal Cruise,
is their teacher and sort of in the background and
I don't know, I kind of interact with the kids
and pop in and laugh, and the kids really love
my character, which is so wonderful because you get to
just play and it's really really just so much joy
(18:57):
in it.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
And yeah, I think.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Prince Cruise is a bit of a dork and she
thinks she's pretty funny. I made a really dorky playlist
for her with lots of nineties hip hop and the
Spice Girls and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Hey, that sounds like my regular playlist.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
So good music, and so she's kind of yeah, just
a really she's kind of like a big kid herself,
I think, and that's why the kids love her so much.
There's another teacher played by Zachary Ruin. He is kind
of trying to be friends with the kids, but I
think the kids pick up on that, and so they're
just kind of like nah. And he's a big stress
head too, which doesn't help. But he was really wonderful
(19:37):
to bounce off of. He's really funny. And Yeah, it
was just a really amazing show and just the detail
that goes into a lot of the props on set,
which just blew my mind because they've got like a
puppet dragon and they've got like a space ship and it's, oh,
it's just very cool. It was really wonderful, So.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
It's kind of like a futuristic sort of set definitely
set in the present time, but yeah, it does have
that kind of the alien aspect I think is a
bit futuristic with like the spaceship and you meet like
this tiny alien played by Cassie rob who's just insanely good.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
She's just this tiny little thing that steals the show.
But she has like this cool outfit and it's Oh,
it's really really awesome.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Amazing and where can people catch this? Where as it
airing now.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
The iView all ten episodes and it's been recently put
up on.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
YouTube as well.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Oh amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
It's really nice because it kind of has the same
vibers like I don't know, like the Ferrels with the
puppets and with like around the Twist, with their kind
of weird stories that they have, And I think it's
really nice to have that kind of style back. It
kind of makes me think of what it was like
growing up as a kid in the nineties with these
really weird, kind of playful stories.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Oh well, that's exciting. I mean, you mentioned at the
start of our conversation that you write and you're also
doing your PhD. I've got to ask you how do
you balance all of the roles and how do you
what's your sort of practice or person or things that
light you up outside of your deadly playlist, Like how
do you keep up with those many roles.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Us off to do? Because you know, the way industries
have been sort of structured, mob have to often wear
many hats. I think we have to become quite skilled
in different ways. Finished my PhD last year and I
began an academic role at Swinburne this year, which I'm
you know, doing as well as the acting stuff, and
(21:35):
it's kind of an easy juggle. I think I'm used
to doing more than one thing at a time, and
if I need to take time off to sort of
focus on a bigger project or something like that, I
generally just do that and make sure that I'm sort
of quarantining time just for that. I think it's really
important and that's something that I've had to learn to
do because I have in the past tried to juggle
too much and get exhausted and it doesn't really work.
(21:57):
And also you kind of only class everything if you
don't concentrate on one thing at a time. Sometimes you
just need to and I yeah, a lot of the
time I have to actually just be strict and say, Okay,
I need to put that over there for now and
go over here and focus on this. But I think
prioritizing stuff that makes me happy as well has been
something that I've really started doing a lot more of
(22:18):
this year, which is including things like seeing my friends
and trying to get out in nature and I need
to see my family more and making sure you're taking
time for you and for rest. One of my friends, SJ,
she does this amazing yoga class online because she's she's
actually like overseas and she does these really beautiful yin
yoga classes. But she does like visualizations and kind of
(22:40):
helps you because you know when your mind wanders when
you're in the middle of posers and that kind of stuff,
she kind of helps you be okay with that, but
then just kind of let that stuff go so you
can come back, which I think is really good practice
just for life, because sometimes if you're in the middle
of something, you might be thinking about the next thing
you need to do, or you might be thinking about
something else. So instead of being hard on your self
about it, you just kind of go, okay, yeah, you
(23:02):
can have your moment, but then I've got to let
you go and focus on what I'm doing, or even
just to rest. And it's that's been something that has
been very helpful and really important.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Such beautiful tips, and I guess what I'm sort of
hearing is, yeah, the importance of boundaries and sort of
being more targeted with your time and like you say,
compartmentalizing things like we can do it all, but just
not all at the same time times if that simple,
isn't it? And I think that the mind body connection
(23:34):
and doing yoga and visualizations and just having an ability
to surrender and learning to let go is a beautiful
practice which I think we could all possibly benefit from
by the sounds of it. It's always good to know
what people are doing because I guess we see like
the successes of things, but behind the scenes, as you mentioned,
like as black followers in an anti black world, we
(23:55):
do have to work double as hard with less of
the resources, less of the support, and sometimes in unsafe industries,
sometimes where there's not a lot of black fellows, like, yeah,
it can be tricky. So finding ways to really nurture
ourselves and rest and say no where we can is
so so important. So thank you for sharing that. I
(24:15):
want to ask you about that question too, about the
industry and thinking about you know, as I mentioned, there
is an explosion of black art and we're all all
artists and storytellers and dancers and performers and in our
own right, in our own way, whether we do that
culturally on stage or whether we do it for community.
You know, we're all sort of creative beings as Black followers.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Hey Aali, And that was part of my research as well.
I was looking at how you know, Corrobboree was, you know,
at the beginning, a main source of storytelling, and that's
how we kind of come together and celebrate and also
mourn and also you know, find ways to communicate. And
I think performance is something that is very embedded in
(25:00):
mob anyway, like those yarns that happen or those dances
that happen. That kind of performativity I think is very
much in us.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah, it is really, Like I mean, it'd be so
interesting to I could unpack your PhD all day by
the sounds of it. But yeah, like you say, I
mean this kind of coming together to exchange an expression,
a feeling, and you know that's the thing I think
for like non Aboriginal people who are listening when we
(25:32):
look at ancestrally in ancient times, you know, the theology,
so the way of social order and governance. Most things
were commemorated through song or dance, whether it's a birth
or death, a celebration, a gathering, just of coming together
for just joy. Like we actually had ways of coming together,
(25:52):
not for tribal reasons, just for pure joy and connectivity.
So yeah, it really is ingrained in all of us,
which is kind of you know, it's not surprising we
see a lot of performers and I think it's growing,
It's definitely growing. I still think that there is a
long way to go where we see like like the
(26:12):
one percents, you know, like the like the Jessica Mowboys
or the people who like I feel like there is
probably a long way to go where we see more
of people at that caliber in influence in Australia. I
feel like we've got so much deadly black talent that
could be there up there. I want to ask you
about the industry. You know what you know, you've been
(26:33):
working in this space for a while. I mean, what
how do you see the future of this creative field evolving,
and you know, can more be done to make sure
that mob get pathways into the arts and get supported
when they're in there, and have mentoring and guidance so
they don't navigate all this in isolation? Like, what are
(26:54):
your thoughts on all of that?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
The diversity kind of situation in the performing arts industry
is definitely improving. It's when I started my PhD, it
wasn't that great and now as we look at it now,
we're seeing mob everywhere, which is really amazing, and you know,
people of color, queer folks. We're seeing more disabled actors
in film and TV and theater and that kind of stuff.
(27:18):
I do think that needs to be improved even more.
I think disabled representation is still lagging. I think that's
been one of the more recent ones. I think that
they need to sort of get their shit together with.
But yeah, I think yeah, I do think it's just
going to keep getting better. Whenever people are like, oh,
how do you think about representation now, I'm like, they
can always be more. It shouldn't be token characters that
are there because of their ethnicity or whatever it's or
(27:42):
they're kind of there to serve as a function for
a white story. It's nice seeing stories like Lea's in
that Lost Flowers of Alice's Heart.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
That was just beautiful.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
She was a standalone character who had her own journey
as well as existing with her partner, and it was
just so beautiful and so important. And I'm really loving
seeing queer stories just not being like it's like, oh
my god, this is all lesbian. It's like, no, they're
just in love and it's just part of the story,
you know. It's they're not going, hey, look at what
we're doing. We're trying to do representation. It's just people
(28:13):
who are being people and living in the world, and
it's just really nice to see that. That's definitely improving
in the industry. I think it's really making a difference
because you know, as we were young ones, we weren't
represented that well on TV. Like in Australia we had maybe,
like in the early two thousands, we had deb Mailman
who was just our hero. But that's a lot of
(28:33):
burn to carry because she was croly won.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And maybe Ernie Dingo I remember, you know, in The
Great Outdoors and when I was thinking about this and
a few episodes we were talking about it I think
it might have been Gosh, going to the memory right,
maybe season one. I was talking to Bianca Hunt about
this and we're thinking who there was, and we were, yeah,
it was Ernie Dingo, Deborah Mailman, and I remember the
(28:59):
year that Samantha Harris won the Dolly Model Search and
she was on the first magazine. Because when you're in
the noughties, for all of our little young listeners, we
used to have to go down to the news agency
and buy five dollars singles and like three dollar magazine.
They were the ways that we would consume our information,
(29:19):
not like on Facebook or TikTok. And I used to
go down like once a week with a little bit
of pocket money or whatever we could scround around or
whatever I'd get working at the pizza shop. And yeah,
we remember the day of going in and seeing her
on the front magazine and just being like totally blown away, thinking, Wow,
there's someone out there in the world that looks like
my mom or my aunties or my sister or you know,
(29:42):
and it's just how important that representation is. And so
it's good to hear that it is growing. I mean,
as you say, all industries could improve, but it's great
to see that it is definitely growing, and you're right
that it's done in ways that makes sense for where
we are now. It's not done that we're just you know,
painted as the deficit or the other. We've got our
(30:03):
own storylines and with depth and dimension, and it's done
in ways that feel right for us.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Because people like Bianca are kind of working behind the
scenes and trying to make sure mob are being put
forward for stuff, and people are writing and making sure
that diverse stories are being put out there, which is
really really good. Like I think there is more of
an effort to make sure diverse writers and diverse kind
of consultants are being involved in these processes. So stuff's
(30:32):
being done right, and it's being done in a way
that is quite safe. So I think that's part of
it too, Like a lot of people behind the scenes
are doing really important work to make sure stuff self determined,
and I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
I think that's the key, like what you're saying around
this notion of not just playing the character but writing
the story, you know. I think from memory with Deadlock,
there are two queer women and they both, as I understand,
like worked with community, like built there all a Obviously
it blows out production budgets and things, but that came
through the story that the depth of the character was there.
(31:07):
What do you think it would take to imagine a
world or a time where there is an all black
production from writers to runners, to actors to make up.
Is that where we can imagine and aspire to be
one day?
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Like in some remote communities, because I've been hearing there
are little media projects going on in communities, so I
wouldn't be surprised if stuff like that's already happening. But
I mean, I think it would need to be funded
by government because if MOB had to take it out
of their own pocket, that would be a bit annoying.
But I think, oh, that would be amazing. Could you
imagine there'd be the funnest set to be on That.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Would be just Yeah, you could imagine the quality of
the art and the performance that would come through.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
The productions like ILVIGERI do a really good job. I mean,
obviously they sometimes have to go to bigger venues and
that kind of stuff, or they might have to have
the odd producer or whatever, but for the most part
it's mostly mob. Even just having that kind of dynamic.
Working with just Mob it's so nice because you don't
feel like there's any judgment. You don't feel like you
have to explain things or code change you like you
(32:10):
know when you sometimes do have to do that kind
of oh no, I meant this, And it's nice not
having to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:15):
I think being in an environment with just Mob is
it's so good. It feels like you can breathe.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
I mean, it's even similar in our line of work
where we bring titters together to jan and when they're
with a black woman or a black healer or a
black mentor the richness of the conversation or the deadliness
of what comes through because they're safe. So it would
be really interesting. What's in the pipeline for you now
that you're done with Principal Cruise and Planet Lulan. Any
(32:45):
future projects that you can talk about in twenty twenty four,
And where's your vision for your PhD now that it's
done getting that out there and talking about it gone.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
What's happening with Planet Lulan. We'll see what goes on there.
I've got to show coming up in I think it's
June or July. I'm not sure. I'd need to check that.
We're doing a remount of the show Inside Out that
we did last year, and I am potentially doing another
theater thing. I'm just waiting to hear back. I think
they're waiting on funding or a cultural consulting stage. I'm
(33:17):
not sure, but yeah, I'm just waiting to hear back
on that one. And yeah, I do like regular voice
over stuff, so I end up doing a lot of
that with my PhD. I'm making it into a book,
which is interesting, and editing your own work is a
bit in it's a bit so crushing because it's like, oh,
what did I write before?
Speaker 2 (33:34):
It's just yeah, and just you would feel attached to
every single word on that bloody page. I'm after finessing
it for what four years.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
I've actually it's been kind of the opposite because there
are moments where I'm like, no, that sucks, I'm cutting
all of that, and then I have to actually go
like check with someone. It's like, am I being too
harsh and cutting this? Because I feel like I'm cutting
a lot.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
I think that's a hard task to do yourself, to
be honest, like the emotional components, so like, yeah, maybe
being too overly critical and being willing to let go.
Maybe you need a bit of a brains trust.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Actually do with the turning a thesis into a book.
You would normally give it to another editor to do,
but because I've done the editing stuff, I also want
to make sure that there aren't any gaps, because I
want to have a look and update it and make
sure that stuff's current and making sure that I haven't
missed anything, and maybe give it a bit of a
once over before I give it to an editor for
them to deal with, because I just want to make
(34:27):
sure it's reading it. Yeah, I've had got a couple
of friends who are like, yeah, let me read your thesis,
and I've sent it to them, and as I've been
going through and editing it, I'm like, oh, wow, this sucks.
I really hope they didn't read the whole thing because
this is terrible.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well that's exciting. I mean the expenditure on the soul
and the spirit to create and develop your thesis and
do your PhD and then to sort of have that
done and then not turn it into something I would
imagine you want it out in the world, and so
how great to turn it into a book and nice
decided to take all of the few visions of your
(35:00):
passions with you know, the academia and the writing and
now you know, getting that out to the world.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
To be such amazing people like I don't I didn't
want to go to waste because I got to yarn
with the most amazing people working in the industry. And
I want their words out there and their wisdom out
there because they they taught me so much, and I
want to make sure that knowledge is available to other
people who might be wanting to do that kind of collaboration. Yeah,
just yearning up with mob like that and having that kind.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Of knowledge is just such a privilege.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I want to make sure that it's not wasted just
on me. I want everyone to read it.
Speaker 2 (35:34):
And what can people expect from your PhD? You mentioned
before around the power of corrobbery, and you know, now
hearing that you've had some yarns and conversations which I imagine
would just really sort of anchor something like this into
real life or for us anyway. But yeah, what can
people expect when going through your PhD?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
It just looks at the history of First Nations collaboration
with non Indigenous people in the performing arts, let's sort
of do a bit of a brief history from Corrobberie
through to establishing black theater companies, to mob being represented
in non indigenous productions, and then sort of where we're
at and how protocols have been written to make sure
people are safe, and also looking at case studies of
(36:17):
other productions that have happened and how it worked and
how it didn't.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
That's so fascinating because even as I understand with black
theater in so called Australia, like you know Redfern which
was like kind of the Redfern Theater Company, which you
know Uncle Gary Foley was really instrumental in. And even
my uncle, I'm sure you'd know my uncle P J. Roses.
He's one of the founders of Irabiddy. I can never
say it's irabidy some words. Yeah, okay, I always get
(36:44):
shamed of, so I just go. Yeah. Like these places
were set up as Ebby centers, and there was like
political backdrops of these places. They were to have sort
of like any civil rights movements need places for art
and expression and creating, and it would sort of be
the political backdrops of the theater and the juxtaposed between
(37:06):
art and justice and all of that, so that it
would be so fascinating for people to sort of understand
in your PhD about how these industry sort of trends
muted one another and work together. That sounds really interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
I can make it sound less academic and more as
interesting as it is because we have such a huge
history of black theater and black performance that has been
very politically minded, and I think it's just such a
really effective way of getting stories across. And honestly, I mean,
I hate to bring it up, but like post referendum,
I'm really looking forward to seeing what kind of art
comes out from this, because you know, we've been through
(37:42):
the ring and like a lot of pain and a
lot of division with.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Mob about points of view. But I think it would be.
Speaker 1 (37:48):
Really good to see what kind of stories and art
and everything comes out from it to sort of stick
it to the rest of the country because it's definitely needed.
I feel like these moments do bring about really great
stories and great art. Least it's a tiny silver lining
in that situation.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, it's so fascinating to think about that when you
really delve deep into it, when you think about these
waves of oppression, all these waves of like collective or
global consciousness changing and the art or the feelings that
I felt and then the art that's produced. We're going
to see a big resurgence of more political black music
(38:25):
in some way. Yeah, so fascinating. We'll put all of
your PhD and the work that's coming up moving forward
for you in our show notes. I wanted to also
ask about Inside Out, so you mentioned you will be
starring in that in later in the year. What can
people expect coming? And Yeah, watching you in Inside Out fast.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Year as part of the yur and Boy Festival. It's
written by Muriel Spirum.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Oh deadly love Muriel. Shout out Muriel, like she.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Just turns out scripts like nobody's business. I was like,
how do you write like that? You're amazing, such a
talented person and I always love working with her and
Monica Carro as well. It's just beautiful. It's beautiful group.
It's nice to work with them. And it's a comedy.
It's a bit weird and I think it's good. It's like,
I'm trying to think of how to describe it. It's
(39:15):
kind of got seventies vibes because it's got like that
whole Shaft kind of vibe. You know, it's like that
detective yeah, Foxy Brown kind of thing, but at the
same time it's really sci fi. So yeah, and it's
a comedy. It's very very funny, and it's really cool
mounted in sometime this year and that'll be really really
fun and yeah, obscene, which is great.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yeah, and it's nice to sort of here that you
get to come back to a role or a character
or some you know, a place where you've already I
think you just grow and build and evolve on that.
So that's that's that's really nice to see.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Excuse to hang out with them too, just makes me happy.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Oh yeah, what a barreler laughs, I can imagine. Wow. Well,
it sounds like there's some great things in the hypeline
and we're so excited to see where you evolve. I
guess my final question for you is, and this might
be a tricky one, but you know, in thinking about
all the work you're doing in writing with your PhD,
(40:14):
creative performing, working at Swindburn and acting, what do you
hope that people take away from the work that you're doing.
But what do you want to invoke a sense of
or what do you want people to feel or what
do you want people to think when they're engaging with
this work. And it's going to be hard because you've
got so many different tentacles, but yeah, what are your
thoughts with them as tentacles?
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Because I really like octopuses.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Work because I'm in a bit of a unique position
with my brother and I that our culture is predominantly
being withheld from us a lot of the time, and
so I kind of like to see myself as someone
that facilitates space for people who have that cultural knowledge.
I'm able to kind of go, Okay, you know stuff,
you help with this, and you know, you be amazing,
(41:01):
and I will help you with whatever you need.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
And like, I'm kind of like the middleman with that.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
A lot of the time, and I think I like
to sort of see myself as someone who facilitates people
with cultural knowledge and be able to help them with
whatever they want to do, or help people try to
make sure stories are being told ethically, Like in the
academic space, that cultural safety stuff is something that I'm
really really keen on and making sure that mob are
safe and making sure that stories are being told proper
(41:27):
way or they're not being told at all.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
If that is the wish of those.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Cultural knowledge holders, like making sure that mob are being
looked after.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And they're okay.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
That's kind of what I like to do, especially in
the context of like the performing arts and stories and
how we go about these things. Because I don't necessarily
have cultural authority on things. I want to protect or
facilitate and help people that do. And that's kind of
I think I'm a good kind of middleman for that.
And I guess with my acting stuff, with the more
(41:57):
creative side, I think, I don't know. I hope people
just enjoy it and learn something, you know, whenever that's
kind of relevant. I think, yeah, hopefully, yeah, that they
just enjoy it and they really have a good time
watching what we do and appreciate the stories. And I
think that's yeah. That's probably the most important thing for me,
is to make sure people are able to lose themselves
(42:19):
in the stories. I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
Yeah, that's sort of that escapism or that ability to
experience a new perspective or a new reality, or to
confront or challenge their own realities, sort of taking them
on that sort of journey spiritually. It's really powerful. Well
you're doing it's yeah, out here doing the damn thing.
(42:45):
So we are so so grateful for you because, you know,
for circling back to where we started. You know. Yeah,
there's something so vulnerable and intimate about putting your art
out there, and that's why probably ninety five percent of
the population ain't doing it. So yeah, really grateful that
you're out here doing that and also simultaneously creating spaces
to bring people in there, like with cultural safety and
(43:08):
brokering people to be their best selves is a very
important role. We call it the blackground or the black
up here at Black Bottle, you know, how we can
support people to shine and take up spaces that they
want to So it's a very important role. So yeah,
thank you, thank you for today, and just excited to
see where what's next for you Sis.
Speaker 1 (43:30):
The acting stuff, you never know, the stuff always pops
up at the last minute, which is kind of cool.
It's always the best projects, I think.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, absolutely, well, we're going to pop all this in
our show notes. Thank you so much for sitting down
with me today, Carusa. You are an incredible system and
deadly things and just so grateful for your time today.
I'm to hang out no anytime anytime. Thank you so
much for listening, you mam. If you're vibing this season
(44:01):
of Yarning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us
some love, rate, and review. Alternatively, you can get in
contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot
Carolinecow dot com dot au
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