February 11, 2024 • 53 mins
In this episode, Caroline is joined by Jye Murray, also known as his online persona, The Koori Physio. Jye is a proud Wiradjuri and Ngemba man who was born and raised in Cowra. A qualified Physiotherapist and someone who is incredibly passionate about Aboriginal social determinants of health. He is using his voice to help close the widening Aboriginal health gap grossly affecting Aboriginal people and communities. He inspires and educates mobs to live healthy lives and advocates for systemic change.
In this episode, Caroline and Jye yarn about Aboriginal health, and the racist, systematic and cultural barriers that prevent mob from achieving their desired health. They yarn about the trauma and the impacts of the body, mind and spirit. And lastly, they unpack their own personal journeys and setbacks when making choices and lifestyle changes when trying their best, to live a happier and healthier life.
To keep up to date with all the deadly work Jye is doing , make sure to follow him on social media:
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and don’t forget to follow the show!
Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here!
We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was taped. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast was brought to you by On Track Studio.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Welcome to Yarning Up, a podcast that showcases stories of
First Nations excellence to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
(00:24):
Proud Barbara woman and founder of Black Wattle Coaching and Consulting,
Caroline cal This podcast was taped on the sacred, stolen
and unseeded aboriginal lands of the Rundjeri people of the
Coolan Nation. I pay my deepest respects to them, my elders,
(00:48):
your elders, and all owners of country, of this beautiful
place that we call home. Jai Murray, also known as
the Grief Physio Online, Welcome to Yanni Up. I am
(01:11):
super excited to connect with you today.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thanks mob, thanks for having me on a Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I have been. I have been following your content for
such a long time, and particularly last year how you
did a lot of really informative conversations about the referendum
and so I just want to say mad respect to
you and your message and your vision and your passion.
And I'm so excited to continue some of these yarns
(01:37):
with you today.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that, Like, yeah, it
has been a big year, you know, last year and
starting to get a little bit more attention. But the
messages are so important, and their messages that you know,
our mob live and deal with every single day and
we're having these conversations between mob and I think the
wider audience or the country just needs to be a
little bit more aware of the things were going through
(01:58):
and to be able to just present that to people
and easy to understand terms. Yeah, I think it's really
important and it's starting to get a little bit of
I guess traction, which is really what that means to me,
is more easy here and the things we need to say,
which is really important. So to be recognized for that, Yeah,
it does mean a lot, and it does get tough sometimes,
like I'm sure you would know, like trying to juggle work,
(02:19):
but also this thing that you're doing on the side
so here and things like that really keeps you motivated
and keeps you going. So thank you well.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
As we do on this show, we always like to
start with getting to know you. So I want to
ask you, bro, like who's your mob? And yeah, where
did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes, I'm a proud Rajui yangba Man. So my mob
from the town of a community, small country town called
Caura on Radri Land, and also from Brewarriner and even
smaller town a part of the gangbar Nation. So i
grew up in Care, small small country town. I'm really
proud of that, a like, really proud to be a
(02:55):
country boy, really proud to be a radur Man. You know,
the history of the people is pretty well documented, you know,
where fierce warriors that stood up in the face of
the British against all odds. Like I'm really proud to
be descended from people like that. My upbringing was really
really great. I had such a I have such a
large family in Care. There's a huge Aboriginal community in
(03:17):
Care as well, and my family are sort of pretty
well established in that. So I grew up around a
lot of mob, a lot of cousins, and you know,
it's like most Aboriginal families. My cousins were like brothers
and sisters to me, you know, so we're that close,
and I grew up around them. I grew up plenty
of uncles and arnties, multiple nuns and pops, and really
(03:37):
importantly grew up around a lot of culture. Grew up
knowing our people's history, grew up knowing about the struggles
that we've been through, grew up learning about dreaming concepts
and ethics. Grew up learning language and knowing language and
speaking you know, broken English and parts of language in
our everyday life, and spending summers down at the river
with your cousins and with your mates and winters playing
(04:00):
and all that sort of stuff. And I'm really grateful
as you get older, you're able to appreciate that that
upbringing a little bit more so. Yeah, looking back on that,
it was a great time. And yeah, I'm really really
proud to be from Cawa, to be a country and
rodri boy. I always speak about it whenever anyone asked
me where I'm from or whatever, That's the first thing
I talk about. And I understand a lot of people
don't get that luxury. And I've grown up and moved
(04:22):
away since and met a lot of people, and you know,
everyone's got their own stories. But yeah, I just feel
that upbringing super unique, and it's something that I think's
really developed or played a huge part in my character development,
I guess up until this point. So and I sort
of really feel like a responsibility being raised on culture
and being raised on you know, knowing these things and
(04:44):
being well aware of the injustices and that that our
people have faced, and having older family members that are
pioneering and fighting for this stuff. I feel a real
responsibility to give back to such a beautiful culture and
a beautiful people, you know. So, yeah, that's sort of
I guess the in the belly comes from that.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Wow, that's so beautiful and special to hear that You've
got to grow up surrounded by family and culture, and
so it's probably not surprising that you've taken on this
path in life of wanting to honor and respect and
give back to those experiences. Do you get back to
Kara much now?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Bro? Yeah, I really make a point of it. I get,
like I'm sure most black fathers do. Really homesick, Like
a couple of weeks, I'm homesick. But where I'm living
at the moments about seven hours away from Cara. But
the last time I was there was Christmas. And I'll
try and get back, Yes, soon, I'll get there probably
once every I'd say six weeks at least two months,
(05:41):
Like I'm there fairly often and I've sort of identified
it as like I need to do that. That's something
I need to do to hum along and keep going
and keep everything into perspective. And that just comes down
to you. And I've been around mob and connecting to
my homeland, my home country. It is great when you
go home and having such a big family you see everyone,
like there's not many people in my mob that have
(06:02):
left care, like there are a couple, but yeah, you
do see all the mob when you go home. So
it is good.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It's just that feeling where you can just be. It
recharges you so you can do that labor and so
it's beautiful to hear that that's a part of like
your self care, so that you can collectively care for people.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I'll tell you what's a real big thing for me
is like language is so important. And when I get
home and I get around my mob, and you know,
they're speaking language and there's traditional words filtered into pretty
much every single sentence. That to me is just like
a oh, you know, like I'm home, I'm safe. You
can drop your guard. And getting out in the professional
world and moving away from home, particularly in the healthcare space.
(06:44):
As a black fellow, you've got to drop a lot
of that. You've got to adopt a different way to talk,
and it's fatiguing, and you do feel like you've being
someone that's not you. So when you get home and
you can throw in some words and that to your mob,
that that's and it like as little as meeting a
black fellow. And you know how we do deadly hand,
don't go what's going on? Cuzzle, what's going on? Brola?
Even that is a mass slot.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I feel the same way too, you know, like code switching.
But it's more than that. I often think about how
beautiful it would be if we could speak our language.
But that's not only that we could speak it for
all of our people, but that it's understood by like
the colonizers or the settlers of the mainstream, and what
it would feel like to really be validated in your
(07:25):
unique experience because we are adopting colonizers words like we
don't we never use some of these things. And all
of those words have a whole range of feelings and
thoughts and you know, values and ideologies attached to them
as well. And so yeah, you're right just being able
to like, you know, be yourself. It really is so special.
But you're right, Like I remember when I went into
(07:47):
counseling down here and when I learned in health work, Yeah,
I found that, like your proximity to whiteness is so
prevalent because you have to treat not just your own mob,
but non Aboriginal people too, And like so many of
our MoMA oscillating between two different codes sometimes. But that's
(08:08):
just like a part of survival. Hey, Like we've had
to adapt to that.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, you're say right, it's hard, and like identity is
a really hard thing for a lot of our mob
these days to deal with and to come to terms
with them. We're all grappling with that. Not one Aboriginal
to and there is not affected by that in some way.
And we have to make ourselves fit into the society
that is now here to survive, to provide for our families,
(08:34):
to continue the survival of our culture. And that is
really hard tiptoe on keeping your own identity but also
finding a way to squeeze yourself into the white society
or Australia at large.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, preach, And that's why I think recently, especially after
the sort of faud referendum last year, I'm trying to
think about this notion of belonging and what are we
belonging to and what are we aspiring to belong to?
And you know how to miglus and modulers like you know,
start to belong to some of our value systems. Because
(09:05):
you're right what you said before. We're just it's such
a beautiful culture. We've got so much to offer, not
just our people, but all communities. We're all searching for it.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
In your job as physio and health worker, correct me
if I'm wrong, but I'm just speaking of my own
experience when I go to osteos and physios and I'm
really beg into mobility and strength and movement, And so
I understand as your role you sort of help patients
manage pain, you improve motion, you strength and muscles. I
imagine you work with people with injuries and just I guess,
(09:38):
enhance people's overall physical wellbeing. I wonder if anything in
your early life kind of led you down this path
of working in health, and particularly in this sort of industry,
in working with people's sacred bodies.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It's a really interesting story because it wasn't Plan A,
actually wasn't even Plan B. There's definitely something there that's
driven me to do it. So yeah, it is really interesting.
But plan a for me, like most country kids and
a lot of black kids too, to be honest, is
I wanted to play in the NRL. I thought I
was going to be a footballer, and I thought that
probably a bit too late into my adolescence. So when
I was around fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, I started going down
(10:15):
to Sydney to see if I could crack it playing
in the lower grades and that down there. But yeah,
when I was about sixteen or seventeen ish, I can't remember,
it was starting year eleven, I was down there and
I was you know, Sydney is hard for country follows
at the best, but I was missing more. But I
was missing country, missing mates. So I ended up packing
it in, giving up just miss mum, basically went back home.
(10:36):
So I got back home about a month or two
months into year eleven and I was like, ooh, okay,
so football, the dream ain't going to happen. I was
a bit stuck. I didn't know really what to do.
My dad was a teacher and I thought that looked
like a really good job. And then I've also got
my family's got an extensive background in health and Aboriginal
health in particular, Like I've got an armie that's a
(10:56):
nurse and doing really great things for Aboriginal people in
that space. And I've got another unt and uncle that
run a drag and alcohol rehab sano And I've always
been brought up now on the injustices our people face
in the healthcare system and how it's leading to quality,
but also quantity of the number of years of life
we live is just significantly less, and you know it
should be. So that was something that really motivated me.
(11:18):
I thought I could probably make a splash in that space.
I was inspired by these leaders in my family. So yeah,
leading into year twelve when the HC, I was thinking
healthcare would be something I'd be really interested to get
into because I could use my qualifications and my education
to springboard a bit of change for our mob hopefully.
And then why physio. When I was fifteen, I had
(11:39):
an ACL injury, so I spent it like a big
knee injury that I spent a lot of time rehabbing
with the physio and I was really interested in it.
I thought this is a cool way to stay close
to the human body and sport and staying fit but
not be in the sports. So I thought that was
a really interesting job. So in year twelve I really
focused on either education or physio. Whatever I got into
(12:00):
was going to take. And then we had an auntie
at Cara High School. I need Letitia Harris shout out
if you ever listening, aren't, but she would look after
the black fellows in year twelve and help us get
tutoring or help us think about careers or apply for UNI.
And she tapped me on the shoulder just as the
HC was sort of starting to roll around. They have
this thing up in Newcastle UNI where they there's a
(12:22):
program for Indigenous follows to come in and trial medicine
and see if you can make it, like as a
black doctor. They reserve a few spots in the degree
for that. And she's like, I mean you could probably
get in, Like your mark's looking pretty good and if
you apply and all that, there's a fair chance you'll
get in. And I was like, oh, what a doctor
Like I never thought of that. I never thought that
would be something even possible, So I thought it's a
(12:44):
big opportunity. I didn't think much about it. Just other
than it's a big opportunity I can't turn down. So
I did apply for that. When the time come around
to get into UNI, I actually got in and I
found out about that before anything else, so I just
sort of took it. So I actually spent my first
year at UNI in the medicine program at Newcastle and
it was interesting. It was really hard and a lot
of work, and I was way too young, and I
(13:05):
was dealing with moving away from home for the first time,
so I didn't do real well in it, and at
the end of that year, I then just transferred into
physio and then from the get go love my time
in physia. I've found a real passion with it. I
genuinely really enjoy meeting people and talking with people and
helping people get back to a position where they can
(13:25):
do everything they want to do in their life without
pain holding them back, or getting them back to a sport,
or getting them back to being able to walk the
dog or play with the kids or play with the
green kids. You know, that is really it's a great
job in the fact that it's really rewarding, and I
don't do it to feel good about myself, but being
there with someone as they achieved big goals that they
didn't think were possible. It's pretty special. And through the job,
(13:48):
I've learned a lot about the body. I've learned a
lot about pain. I've learned a lot about health and
all the complex things that go into that, and it's
something I'm really passionate about. It is Indigenous health and
Aboriginal torsha into health in particular life expectancy and the
rates of disease that we face, and that it's really complex, however,
arrived at the position we're in in terms of our
(14:09):
quality of health and quality of life. And I just
think I've developed that in my profession, some skills and
some knowledge that can hopefully make at least a little
bit of a change for one Black veather. So that's
where I'm seeing my career diverge now. I am still
really passionate about physio and I'll probably do it until
I retire, but I'm really trying to branch out into
more First Nations people's health stuff more specific to that.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
It's interesting how life and the ancestors sometimes have other
plans and so often whether we're ready to be open
and expansive to that new journey and you know, just
having an Arnie or family around to believe in you
and say, go, man, you know, give this a go.
Like we need that one or two people, whether in
(14:53):
our families or in our communities or at school or
in sport, to just give us that mission to give
something a go.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I don't know if that's the
same in like, you know, other other people's families, but
I've met a lot of people at Yuni. Their families
were really tough on them and really put a lot
of pressure on them and everything like that, and we're
a bit doubtful of the things they were doing. Like think,
I never thought about it at the time, but thinking
back on it, I had nothing. But if anyone was
(15:23):
doubting that, it was me. I was going, I can't
be like a doctor. I can't be a physio. I
don't know a single black physio. I can't be that.
But the mob were just like one hundred percent, Like
course you will, of course you'll be like there was
never any doubt And yeah, we take that for granted,
I guess until you look back on it, but yeah,
it is special.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, it's often just them like just sitting in asking
good questions and being curious, but then also giving you
a little bit of a challenge when you need to
hear it, like loving a loving little flog Yeah, give
give it a crack, yeah, And just to have that
person to sort of guide, you know how special and
for it to lead to this way. You know, it's
(15:59):
interesting what you say about, you know, going into a
field like physio for instance, and I'm just resonating with
something he said. So much is like that. Once you
get into this health industry, sometimes it takes such a
narrow focus, and it's when you're in aboriginal health. Everything
(16:19):
is intero related. You know. The profession at times doesn't
look at like the triads of health, so the connection
between mind and body and biochemistry, but also in many
cases doesn't look at the social emotional wellbeing of health,
the social determinants of health. And I also had those
epiphanies when I went to Union did counseling, and we
(16:40):
got taught about these, you know, white followers sitting around
thinking about stuff and having these epiphanies. And then all
these schools of thought were made after that, and then
how he treated the mind was based off that, and
there was never any relationship with the body, with land,
with culture, community. People would just treat it as these
(17:00):
like unilateral beings, you know, And I'm sure that maybe
you would have possibly experienced that, like, you know, looking
at say just one part of the body, but then
really zooming out and thinking about what is the relationship
between this pain and how complex and multifaceted it is,
and how much of our health as black follows, is
(17:24):
really around things like the cultural determinants and historical intergenerational
traumas and racism and access. So it becomes so much
bigger than just that the field that we're in.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Hey, you're one hundred percent right. And I guess my
burning sort of passion and what I really truly believe
in is all that sort of stuff because I have
been brought up on it. But I think you can
attribute ninety five percent of the failures of closing the
gap down to the fact that our mob have been
squeezed into a healthcare system based on Western values, and
(17:59):
that and value when it comes to health is you
treat the disease. It's more of like a curative sort
of approach. You treat the disease, you don't look at
the person. So it's not a person coming in with
heart disease with all these other things contributing. It's a
bad heart that they've got to fix, which they might
throw medication or whatever it is at It same in physio,
someone comes in with an injury like it, for example,
a knee injury, you're treating the knee, you're not treating
(18:22):
the person. That's the Western approach to things, and it
is really not working, like for most people, not just
Black Fellows, for most people, it's really not working. And
I guess I've sort of always had that mindset that
you know, there are other things that go into it.
When it comes to Blackfellows. We're not unhealthy because we
want to be unhealthy. It's we're not unhealthy because we'd
like to smoke and drink and eat poor and be
(18:43):
physically inactive. That is so incorrect. Why we're unhealthy is
it's a mix of so many complex things injustices in
the social determinents of health, a history of horrific abuse
and racism, discrimination, segregation in this country, dispossession, assimilation policies,
access to health care. There are so many different things
that go into where we are now that are just
(19:05):
so outside of that unilateral disease based approach, and if
we continue down this path, I know in physio, for example,
it's kind of changing a little bit now where people
are starting to treat the person and take a more
broader approach to it. Still in the early days though,
and a lot of people are skeptical and getting that wrong.
But if we continue, particularly in healthcare, to treat Aboriginal
(19:27):
people and torshot on the people based on Western health
values and approaches, we're going to continue to spin the
wheels in the mud and get nowhere. That's got to change.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You're right in saying that this doesn't work for anyone, right,
I mean, particularly our mob because we've had these beautiful
protective factors like access to our kin, like access to
our land, like being able to be heard by our practitioners,
and all of those things. The whole paradigm of how
we look at health needs to change. And that's why
(19:56):
we need beautiful health workers like you and other in
that space to put Aboriginal social motion, wellbeing and Aboriginal
social determinants on the agenda because this system is failing us.
Last year, we did a project on racism in hospitals
when mob presented the emergency departments, even just getting them
to the hospital to feel safe to even present was
(20:19):
one thing. But then when they would engage or triage
again coming back to these speaking different languages, they weren't
being heard. And then it really is just this symptom base.
Often they weren't able to have family with them. There's
just so many things to even inhibit us to even
get there, and then once we're there, we're not looking
at the bigger picture. Yeah, it absolutely needs to change.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
What people got to realize and remember is when the
healthcare system was set up by the colonizers, it was
designed to exclude aboriginal and tyso on to people. We
initially and only in the last forty years or so
have we been able to fully take advantage of participate
in the Australian healthcare system. It was a place of
stream abuse through our mob going to the hospital often
(21:03):
was attributed with people dying and then the following sorry
business that would come after it. But I have an
Arnie and an elder in my community in who does
a lot of truth telling stuff and one of the
stories she tells about is when she was given birth
to her child, a black child. She went to Cawur Hospital,
got a gown put on with big three letters in
black Texter Abbo shoved out on the front veranda and
(21:23):
forced to give birth out there. Like the healthcare system,
it has not been designed to protect us. And you've
had I've seen you've had Taylor Gray on before and
she always talks about this, and it's really really important.
Until we can do things our own way, based on
our own values and our own traditional practices, things aren't
going to change for our people in this country. We
can't continue to squeeze our mob, with our own point
(21:45):
of view, our own approach to life, our own ancestral law,
and all that into a box that is based on
things not designed to protect us, initially designed to exclude us.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I mean, firstly, it's just so appalling to hear about
those stories. It wasn't even that long ago that people
were treated like that without any basic dignity or any
decency as a human And how deeply dehumanizing and how
devaluing of lives that is for our women, like our
sacred women. But you're right, bro in saying that, and
this is where we're at, this tricky time I think
(22:17):
post referendum. I don't know if you're feeling this, but
for such a long time there has been an appetite
to want to belong to and reconcile with and be
included in this system and have that sort of equity approach.
But now it's kind of like, no, we need to
go back to, we need to return to. Will be
(22:40):
back you mob right after this short break. I want
to ask you bro about this. I was thinking about
when I had you one. I was like I had
a million and one goad ask you, but I wanted
to sort of talk to you about the real relationship
(23:00):
between trauma and physical pain. I know a lot of
the people I work with because we take a really
holistic approach. We introduce a lot of somatic work, a
lot of movement, a lot of breath work. I know
in my own practice, I have an autoimmune condition called
loopers and movement has just changed my life. And similarly,
(23:22):
like the Western wellbeing diet fad culture has kind of
kiboshed this to make it this gym fad, you know,
go top a five and run every morning on sort
of thing, and it becomes another like cognitive load and
to do list, But just like gentle movements like walking
and waking up with country or stretching or you know,
(23:46):
just allowing the body to sort of move through stuff
has literally changed my life in so many ways. I
wanted to ask you about it. Could you like explain
maybe the relationship between trauma and physical pain and how
it can manifest in our bodies.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah. Absolutely. First of all, that is unreal that you've
been able to do that, because it is people really
underestimate it unless you've experienced it. It is really hard
to break that and often, you know, even trying to
explain it to people like movement really does help. I
would say a significant proportion of people that deal with
that don't break free, but people live their lives in
(24:24):
this persistent chronic pain. That's really debilitating and unreal that
you've been able to do that good stuff, And it's
good that it's good to hear that as like a
health professional, because we're often trying to get people to
that point and a lot of people doubt that that's
actually what's got to happen. They think they need more treatment,
they need more needing or massage, or they need opioids
or something like that. When really, you know, what you're
(24:45):
sort of living is the real thing that works. So
it's really complex. This stuff. Pain is really really complex.
I'm definitely not an expert, but I think I understand
it enough to explain it to people in a way
that I hope can help them along the path are
dealing with it. The trauma definitely, or any sort of
mental health condition definitely plays a huge role in the
(25:07):
experience of pain or the presence of pain. What you're
going to think about, like, pain is an experience, right,
Pain is a thing that your brain perceives. Does that
make it not real? No, because pain is a real thing,
And trying to explain to people that it's not all
in their head is really really hard because people do
take it that way. If pain is an experience and
it's my brain that's feeling it, then does that mean
I'm making it up? That is completely not true, and
(25:30):
it's really hard to tiptoe around that. But if you
think about acute pain, so acute pain, maybe you have
an injury, or maybe you've put your hand on a
hot stove, so you've got a physical thing happening in
your body, tissue damage or whatever. It might be. Some
physical stimulus that is sending a response through your nervous
system to your brain basically alert in your brain. We
need to get out of this situation. We need to
(25:51):
protect ourselves, We need to sort it out that your
brain's ain't going to produce a pain response. But often
you get people that have gone past this point where
there's actually no tissue damage, there's no physical thing going wrong,
but there's still feeling pain as if there was something
going on. So what basically is happening there is your
nervous system is so wound up that it is sending
(26:12):
me out a pain or your brain is producing a
pain response basically to no stimulus. And if you think
about that, just because there's no stimulus doesn't mean that
that pain response is just as real as if you'd
rolled an ankle, or as if you'd cut a finger off.
That pain response is just as real. Your experience of
it is just as real, and often it actually gets
worse longer it goes on. So you've got a nervous
(26:34):
system that is so alert and so ready to send
something to the brain to equal pain. And what is
a big thing that contributes to that wound up nervous
system or that really sensitive nervous system is the way
that your mental health is at the time. So if
you're going through any sort of traumas, or if you've
got any sort of mental health condition PTSD, depression, anxiety, anything,
(26:56):
anything like that, it is going to significantly iffect the
way your nervous system is functioning and therefore then significantly
affect the experience of pain. So one of the things
I try and identify because we see it really often.
It manifests in many different ways in the profession. Really commonly,
we might see someone with back pain or neck pain
that's been going on for eight plus years. So whatever
(27:18):
injury they did to their back has well and truly
at a tissue level repaired, but they've still got this
pain that they're experiencing in the same area, just as
if they did the injury yesterday. And one of the
big things I try and identify early with someone like
this completely scrap the back, like you do think about it,
but you don't focus on it. I want to learn,
is there things that may be contributing to the nervous
(27:39):
system here that we call them psychosocial flags. Is there
anything like mental health challenges? Is there any family things,
any work pressures, have you lost someone recently, you know,
are you going through challenging times, because all those things
will impact the way that you experience pain or when
it comes to what do you do? Then if you
just take an approach to the perceived injury, just treated
(28:00):
the back with certain treatment and then giving you some
exercises just for the back, things are unlikely to change
because you haven't addressed the things that are likely winding
up your nervous system. So I take multiple approaches when
trying to help people with this, and mind body connection
is one of the big first things we look at.
So I'll get people to use a diary and are
(28:21):
there times where mentally you're going through things that are
quite tough or not feeling one hundred percent and is
that correlating with an increasing pain? And often people will see, yeah,
I've had a really bad day to day and yeah,
my pain is really through the roof you might have.
Then you know they've gone had a really happy day
where they've been able to get out and do stuff
and connect with family, connect with country, eaten well, they've
(28:41):
slept well, and then you'll see that that directly correlates
with a decrease in the experience of pain. So it's
a really complex sort of relationship, but it's definitely real,
and it's really poorly managed both by the healthcare profession
and the purely the people that have it. They're just
not given the right information, so it's not their fault.
So yeah, it is really complex, but it's definitely there,
(29:03):
and it's something that's really challenging to work through with people.
What I usually do and what has been found to
be quite effective, is like what you've found taking an
active based approach. So I'm making sure people have established
this mind body connection and we need to address any
mental health things going on that needs to be addressed,
otherwise things aren't going to change. The next thing we
look at is you know, sleep, nutrition, are you handling those? Okay?
(29:27):
Then we look at activity, and initially it's really challenging
because you might be only able to tolerate a ten
minute walk down the end of the hallway before your
pain starts going off, So that's where you've got to start,
and then you slowly, slowly build it up and like
exactly what you just touched on about this whole gym
culture and fad diets and health influences on Instagram. It's
(29:48):
becoming so dangerous for a lot of people, and it's
really turning down this sort of dark side where you're
pressured or you're made to feel inferior, or made to
feel like you're not working hard enough. But it can
be as simple as walking to the mailbox and back
a few days through the week, and then on that
you build something bigger and that is honestly your doorway
and your pathway out of that persistent pain.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Could have used this yan I reckon with you maybe
a few years ago when I was navigating this process,
but it's so fascinating. There's a couple of things I
want to touch on what you've just said there, which is,
you know, I think for a lot of black followers
as well, who have been in a state of hypervigilance
for such a long time, the body keeps a score.
You know, they are remembers. It has a cellular level
(30:31):
of memory as well, and so I think that's why
it's really nice to sort of hear that as part
of your work. There is this sort of integration about
a multifaceted, holistic approach that doesn't just treat that ailment
or that part of the body. Do you think that
the industry is kind of changing in that space.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, I hope. So if i'd just like keep it
from a physio point of view, in the physio realm,
there's evidence and studies that have been done on people
on physios managing people with persistent pain and those that
have extra training in psychological care and mental health first aid,
they get superior results with people. So if you have
training in that and you're more aware of that, you're
(31:11):
going to get way better results with the people that
are dealing with that stuff. So, yes, it definitely needs
to be something that is more focused on moving forward
for all health professionals. If you just narrow it down
to blackfeathers, the way forward to a better position of
health quality and quality of life for our mob, health
and wellbeing for our mob. We need to start offsetting
(31:32):
the social determinants of health that we have massive disparities
with with the cultural determinates of health. You mentioned the
cultural determinants of health a little bit earlier, so there
are things like connection to country, language, expression of culture, family, kinship, community,
all that sort of stuff. We need to start focusing
resources and manpower and efforts into those things. Basically, we
need to start managing our mob based on our own
(31:55):
values and based on our way of life and our
way of doing things. I can't see any way other
than that for us to move forward. And if you
look at like work from like the book The Dreaming Path,
or if you look at Bruce Pasco's Dark Emu, like,
our way of life would significantly benefit every single person.
We survived sixty five possibly plus thousand years on the
(32:18):
harshest continent in the world. These things work, Our way
of life works. It's not magic or airy fairy like.
We need to start channeling yeah, resources and that into
that sort of area. And that's the only way I
say this moving forward.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I want to be open about this and say that
it has been a huge journey, like two and a
half years of navigating the systems and testers and MRIs
and all of those things, and a lot of the
times I was met with this it's in your mind
and it's just stress. Manage the stress, and you think, oh,
that kind of makes you a little bit more stressful.
(32:51):
I've got of those things to do. But there are
so many different things in our toolkit, and there is
not a one size fits all, if we can find
some of the things that we actually like that we
don't feel co opted or forced to do, and create
a bit of a little I've got a mind body
food community list. You know, when I went through this process,
(33:15):
the doctors wanted to, yeah, just load me up with
pain management, all of the anti inflammatories, and I was like, yeah, look,
I could possibly spend my life taking all this medication
and just accepting this, I guess and then be I
really didn't want to become or identify with the illness.
I wanted to be like, I am a person who
is experiencing chronic pain rather than I am the person
(33:39):
who is who is sick. And so I sort of thought, okay,
what is within the sphere of my control? And I
always go back to like how our ancestors lived and
what they did, And you know, we did a lot
of like with my osteo and physio support, going and
hanging on monkey bars, like using different arms because that's
(33:59):
what maybe what we would done, and long walks and
just trying to go back to some of the slower movement.
And it was such a gradual, gradual. It doesn't happen
overnight that you just start moving your body. It's literally
and some days you don't too, Like, let's be honest,
some days you don't have it and that's okay, But
it's like building a bit of self trust with myself
that okay, I intuitively know what I need, which is
(34:22):
a part of like decolonizing some of this health as well.
But for me, there's been four key things that have
really helped me and in managing my mind and managing
my thoughts. I've always had an ability to go to
counseling and coaching and journal because that's my profession and
I'm a talker and so you know, understanding the relationship
between my thoughts and my feelings is something that I
(34:42):
sort of had. But learning to move the body and
learning to connect to the body was such a process.
I was like disconnected from head to body. I became
that separation. So it does take time and like getting
some clarity and trusting yourself and do those small like
inner acts of self love. And it doesn't have to
(35:05):
be hard fast, and it doesn't have to be focused
on yeah, weight and outcome. It can just be like
moving because you feel good and food. Food has changed,
you know, we've looked a lot at food. You know,
a lot of us black followers and even you know,
other marginalized people of color. We're eating diets and foods
that our ancestor is never ate, you know, and that's
(35:26):
got huge inflammatory and so I try to just think
about what did our ancestors eat, you know, try to
eat more more plant food, more veg And the one
other thing is if you can find a community to
do it with, you know, because we are operating community,
so like having a group gym or going to a
group dance class, or you know, is there somewhere you
can wrap around a community to do it with, because
(35:48):
we never did all of this stuff in isolation before.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Too exactly right, Yeah, you're so so correct. On my
social media page when I'm trying to motivate mod to exercise,
I don't say go to the gym and track your
weight and you take progress pictures of yourself. Like I'm saying, traditionally,
we would move a lot across the land to hunt
the care for the land, to make things sustainable. So
if you can go for as simple as a walk
(36:12):
in some way that's culturally significant, like a place of
on your home country in a park along the river,
you know, anything like that, and if you can take
a mob member with you and discuss it, you know,
talk about things that you're dealing with, and if you
can use language while you're doing that, if you can
then turn that into some community basing, like a group
exercise thing run by black fathers for black fathers, you're
ticking off like almost every single cultural determinative health. You're
(36:34):
not just going to get the physical benefits from exercise
and eating well and talking. You've got all those cultural
things and that connection to culture coming as well. So
what you've done is exactly where we need to get
for most people, and you're living proof that it helps.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Thank you, Bro. And yeah, I want to put a
huge caveat on it and say that it's a bloody journey.
It's hard, and we've got old habits and we're trying
to change them and rewire new pathways, and it's certainly
not easy. But I think it's coming back to like, yeah,
doing things that you actually like. You know. With that
in mind, Bro, I want to ask you, you know,
(37:10):
in making some of these changes in your life around health,
did you notice any changes. I think sometimes when we
take a path like we stop drinking or we stop
doing something, there is a grief and a loss of
this identity or maybe relationships. I know, I've really struggled.
I felt at times when I've had to make decisions
(37:30):
that yeah, I'm not out on the charge on certain
times or whatever it might be. And so I've had
to like let some relationships go. I've had to let
some beliefs about myself go. I want to ask you
about that. You know, when you began to sort of
place a bit of a priority on your health, Like
what are some of the things that you noticed personally
about your life and your relationships from.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
A young age, Like my family, uncle's annie is, everyone
was playing sport. My dad would go to the gym,
So I grew up around people exercising, but I never
really knew a bit exercise for health. That will always
go to the gym to look a certain way or
weigh a certain weight or that sort of thing. And
that's something that I've only just recently, in the last
couple of years, really started to develop a healthier relationship
(38:13):
with There's a very big dark side to things like
exercise and nutrition and a health routine that people often
don't talk about you can become obsessed with these things
and they can negatively impact your life. For me, I exercise,
sleep well, and eat well and try to stay as
close to cultural values as possible because I want to
feel better and be a better meat so I can
(38:34):
then be a better resource or support person for my
mob and family and my friends. That's what I'm trying
to do. But if I rely solely on those things
to feel that way, inevitably you're going to go through
periods of your life where you can't do those things.
You might be on a holiday, you might be sick,
you might have an injury, work might be busy, you
might have just had a kid. There are always going
(38:54):
to be things that are going to pull you away
from that, And if you're solely relying on that to
be okay, have a lot of trouble. And I've had
a lot of trouble with that. Also when it comes
to exercise, this is something that a lot of people
struggle with, particularly nowadays with social media. Like if you're
exercising purely to have a six pack, or purely to
have a big barm, or purely to have like look
(39:16):
good on Instagram, you're not doing it for the right reasons,
and you're never ever going to feel okay. You're going
to continuously bust yourself at the gym and sacrifice other
areas of your life for a metric or a bar
that will continue to outpace you. So yeah, that's really challenging.
But the big things I've sort of noticed in that
change from that into more of it. I'm exercising to
(39:37):
live longer, so that I'm living longer, happier, healthier I
can be around for my family. That's the main reason
I'm now exercising, and there's not that pressure. I enjoy
exercising now, like I enjoy going for a run. I
really enjoy going to the gym. It's a bit of
me time, like I thoroughly enjoy doing it. I don't
really get burnt out, like it's something I do most
days without having to think about it. And that's all
(39:58):
come from that shift in mind set. Also, things like
your relationships and everything like that. If you're a better
version of yourself, you can turn up a lot better
in those. But there's also the flip side. These things
are time consuming. Eating well often means sacrificing going out
for dinner or making it a little bit difficult. Exercising
is time consuming. You might be missing times with family, friends,
(40:18):
you know, people that you love because you're going to
do these things. Sleep takes a lot of sacrifice, you know,
not staying up late, not watching TV late, eating at
certain times if you want to sleep well. There's a
lot of sacrifice that comes with this stuff that can
pull you away from other important areas of your life,
like relationships, like friendships and family. When I'm really stuck
in a routine and I'm hammering exercise and I'm really
(40:39):
trying to sleep and I'm really trying to eat well,
Like I could go a week or a bit over
a week without talking to my mom or my brother,
or family or friends, and that is something I value
way more than this other health related stuff. But it
seems that I can it can pull you out of
that so easily. So it is really really challenging to
find that balance, and to be honest, I haven't really
(41:01):
found it yet, but it's something I'll continue to sort
of work on. And one thing, like you were just
saying at the start, that I'm really been trying to
change in the last probably twelve to eight a months,
and this year. It's taking up a lot more of
my focus is getting off the charge and like really
railing in the amount of times, like doing things out
of alcohol related because it is something the more I've
(41:22):
followed this path of learning about our mob and trying
to be a leader in this space and inspire people
to live healthy lives, it is something that has been
introduced into our communities at a time of real vulnerability,
during dispossession and invasion and simulation times. Not a single
Indigenous person in the country was not experiencing significant trauma,
(41:44):
like an entire race of people are experiencing absolute horrors.
This is what leads into intergenerational trauma as well. Every mob,
every single person of every single mob is going through
something still, and concurrently they've introduced or colonized, have introduced
the alcohol at the same time. And you know, I
wasn't around them to know exactly why, but I'm sure
in the back of their minds there was this notion
(42:06):
or this thought that this will seem temporary relief to
these people, but it's going to be destructive in the
long run. So let's try and get it into these
communities as a way to break them up, and we
are really really with that still in our communities. It's
a big thing and if you look at all the
major health things that we face, it is one of
the hugest risk factors there. So that's something I'm really
trying to nut down on. Like this year, I've sort
(42:28):
of given myself a rule. I'm not no drinking at
all unless there's something really significant like a wedding, and
even then I'm having an internal battle about that stuff
because it's really going against things that I value. Last
year I rained it in a lot as well. And
you are right, there are really big things that you'll notice.
They will be positive in the long run, but they're hard.
Like relationships, like friendships, there are certain people you won't
(42:49):
see as much. Like I've got certain friends who I
thought were really great friends, but looking back on it,
I've only ever seen them if we're out on the
charge or they only want to hear from me if
I'm going to come and have a charge with them.
And it is hard, but you've got to drop them
like unfortunately you need to, and it's not an easy
thing to do, but long run, it will work out.
So yeah, it is really challenging that sort of stuff.
(43:10):
I haven't actually mastered it yet, so I'll hopefully get
back to you and once I'm at a place where
I feel I have the balance of it all. But yeah,
it's really challenging, and unfortunately, to get to a place
where you're functioning at somewhere close with your values and
living a life that you want to leave it does
not come without significant sacrifice, unfortunately, and it's going to
be short term pain, but it's long term game. So
(43:32):
I've got a lot of members of my family that
don't drink at all, and they're living happy, healthy lives
and they're really available for their family members, and I've
had unfortunately, like a lot of black families, it go
down the other path as well, where it's absolutely destroyed
lives and families. So I can see both sides, and
I know which side of the fence I want to
be on, and it is hard, but it's got to
(43:53):
be done. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Firstly, I want to say thank you for your honesty,
because I too have not mastered it, and I think
think it's really important as health workers, and especially our
original health workers, that we be honest and authentic and
standing the truth of that we're all in a business
of truth telling. And I don't think any of us
have mastered it. We have old wounds and old habits,
(44:17):
and you know, we have learned and been conditioned through
colonization and then through the impacts of that through our families,
and so these are really hard things to shift. And
so I really want to say thank you for your honesty,
and yeah, I have certainly not got it mastered either,
and I think it's important we share that. The other
thing I want to talk about is around yeah, like
(44:39):
this notion of sacrifice that you said, and how Yeah,
it is hard to find that balance and what are
we prioritizing. You know, when we're saying yes to something,
we're saying no to something, we're saying no to something,
you know, we're saying yes to something else. And you're
right there underneath this sort of like pursuit to better
and improve our lives through health and wellbeing. I guess
(45:02):
there can be a really insidious and dark culture around
that striving and perfectionism and comparison and you know, that
sort of ego and Instagram life, that curated life that
we see, and so there is sort of, yeah, sometimes
a darker culture behind some of this stuff, and I
think everyone who has tried to better themselves, it's so
(45:26):
emblematic of the Western system to be like, if I
just do this, this and this, I'm going to get
this outcome. And anyone who's trying to better themselves will
have experienced those feelings of not being good enough, adequate,
having to strive, having to work hard, and that can
also create a level of unrest within. You know, I've
(45:47):
been really open to about like my relationship with alcohol
on the podcast and just personally because I try to
be really open and yeah, I've had a very very
complicated relationship with it. Both my parents were really heavy drinking,
and you know that both of them past it, you know,
sixty and alcohol related issues. But I also have this
(46:07):
tendency to be one of those all or nothing people.
What I've had to learn is to like uncomplicate it
a little bit, like uncomplicate that thing that I have
to be on or off and how do I find
this middle ground? And so some days, like I think,
you do fall off the bandwagon, you do fall off
the health and wellbeing thing. You might have that drink,
(46:29):
you might you know, pick up something that you're trying
to get rid of and it's like, how do we
lean into those moments with kindness and be like, Okay,
I've just had to relearn this, you know, rather than
like that shame spiral and guilt. That's one thing that
is really I've had to really learn is like I
am going to fall off the routines that I set
(46:50):
at times, but how do we give ourselves a bit
of like grace and space? And Yeah, I feel like
I've had periods where I've drank really heavily, and I've
had periods where I've taken time off the drink. And
every time I've taken time off the drink, I as
hard as it has been at first, I've never regretted it,
(47:10):
and I felt so much better energetically, And like you say,
when we're in the business of working with our mob
and we've got this sense of responsibility and we're here
to serve and support and guide, we're much better equipped
to manage that and deal with our mob when we
are in a better energetic and more connected place.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I appreciate your honesty as well, and it's so important
for people to hear like I had a similar thing.
I would go periods where I just wouldn't drink it all,
Like months where I wouldn't drink it all, and then
you know, I'd have one night on the drink where
I'd just absolutely like tear the walls down, and that,
to me was something I had to start looking at
it. And when you unpack it, what was going on for
me is like I would be so strict on myself
(47:54):
for months to live a certain way. Then when it
came to the time to let your head down, I
was just like trying to find a way to escape
the pressures of the person I was. I just was unhappy.
And in that one night where I'm like writing myself
off on the drink, I'm experiencing fake, but at least
temporary happiness. So you've got to strip that back and
work out why am I doing this to myself? I
(48:15):
had a problem with alcohol, not drinking every single day
or even every single month, but getting to a point
where you're trying to escape your real feelings in your
real world world. That's a real problem, and you've got
to dig deep to ask the question why am I
doing this? Why do I need to have a drink
If I'm doing it to be social, why do I
need it to be social, you've got to try and
unpack that, otherwise it can be very destructive, and unfortunately
(48:39):
our people see that a lot.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Cut from the same cloth. I feel exactly the same
way when we put in these conditions, we yeah, we
want to break free of that and asking ourselves, Yeah,
what are we searching for in these moments. In twenty
twenty one, we took my partner and I almost a
year off, and there's this sweet spot in life where
you can still maintain your relationships. There's really great non
(49:03):
alcoholic drinks out there too, so you can still have
something in your hand, I guess. But you go out
and you can yarn with people, you can have a connection,
you can have a good feed. I'd go out, I
would talk to people, I would be able to follow
up with them, I would be present with them, and
I would go home and sleep, and I'm free. I
could get up in the morning and the day's mind.
(49:24):
I'm not laying on that couch doom scrolling, eating KFC
like you know, really self loathing. I was free, and
it is a sweet spot. And what's really been really
beautiful Over the last few years, We've got a lot
of our friends in our circle who have also started
to change their ways as well with that, and we've
not attached all of our stuff around booths, like we'll
(49:46):
go it out of the beach for a swim, we'll
go for a walk and do brunch, or you know,
we'll get the dogs down too the park and catch up.
It's really tricky at first if you're doing these things
and you're feeling isolated. Like you said before, some people
do need to go. Like some people are just the
fun time people, and they're always going to be the
fun time people. But the people who are worthy and
will stick around will change some of those habits with you.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
They'll be there. They really love you and care about you,
and they're meant to be in your life. They'll be there,
So don't worry, like if people are falling off to
the side, they're probably not meant for you.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Oh, I could speak to you all day, my brother.
I really, I mean, I'm really glad that we had
this open, honest conversation. Maybe a lot of people and
listeners are probably thinking about their resolutions and what they
want to set up for the year and all of
those things. I personally have struggles with resolutions, but what
sort of life they want to live? What are they
going to take on this year? And I think, yeah,
anchoring this conversation in a real honest conversation about just
(50:42):
being a bit kinder, uncomplicating it, giving yourself permission to
try some things you like, and just be gentle with
your spirit as you try new things, and building in
some of that time to give something a crack and
just check in with your intuition, your sacred come and
say like does this fill me up? How can I
(51:03):
choose more of this? Do I want to let something go?
And just kind of being really gentle and iterative with
ourselves this year and trying our best to unplug and
uncomplicate it so we can nurture ourselves and nurture our communities. Yeah,
thank you so much for today's conversation.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Thanks for having me on. It's been really really good.
I think we've talked about some things that are really
important for not just mob everyone to hear, so hopefully
they'll take something from it.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
And where can we all keep up with your magic
and your information and all the deadly things you're doing.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram and TikTok at
the Cory physio. And then I'm also I've got a
couple of logs on YouTube that I'm hoping to start
up and put a bit more up as well.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Amazing we'll pop all of that in our show notes
so you can listen to Juy's amazing work. Thank you
so much for being on the show today, Brother, I
really appreciate you and all you're doing, and it was
just so lovely to care.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
You're welcome anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
What a beautiful and generous and inspiring conversation with brother
boy Jay Murray for me, It's really reminded me of
the importance of nourishing our sacred bodies, not just for
our mental, emotional, and spiritual health, but also how we
(52:26):
can return back to stillness in our body, how we
can return back to some sense of calm and awareness
in the body. So I guess my invitation to you
MOB today is how can you provide a little extra
love and nourishment to your beautiful bodies today? Thank you
(52:49):
so much for listening you Mob. If you are vibing
this season of yarning up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us
some love. Rate and review. Alternatively, you can get in
contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot
(53:10):
Caroline Coow, dot com dot au
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Welcome to Yarning Up, a podcast that showcases stories of
First Nations excellence to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
(00:24):
Proud Barbara woman and founder of Black Wattle Coaching and Consulting,
Caroline cal This podcast was taped on the sacred, stolen
and unseeded aboriginal lands of the Rundjeri people of the
Coolan Nation. I pay my deepest respects to them, my elders,
(00:48):
your elders, and all owners of country, of this beautiful
place that we call home. Jai Murray, also known as
the Grief Physio Online, Welcome to Yanni Up. I am
(01:11):
super excited to connect with you today.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Thanks mob, thanks for having me on a Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I have been. I have been following your content for
such a long time, and particularly last year how you
did a lot of really informative conversations about the referendum
and so I just want to say mad respect to
you and your message and your vision and your passion.
And I'm so excited to continue some of these yarns
(01:37):
with you today.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh, thank you. I really appreciate that, Like, yeah, it
has been a big year, you know, last year and
starting to get a little bit more attention. But the
messages are so important, and their messages that you know,
our mob live and deal with every single day and
we're having these conversations between mob and I think the
wider audience or the country just needs to be a
little bit more aware of the things were going through
(01:58):
and to be able to just present that to people
and easy to understand terms. Yeah, I think it's really
important and it's starting to get a little bit of
I guess traction, which is really what that means to me,
is more easy here and the things we need to say,
which is really important. So to be recognized for that, Yeah,
it does mean a lot, and it does get tough sometimes,
like I'm sure you would know, like trying to juggle work,
(02:19):
but also this thing that you're doing on the side
so here and things like that really keeps you motivated
and keeps you going. So thank you well.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
As we do on this show, we always like to
start with getting to know you. So I want to
ask you, bro, like who's your mob? And yeah, where
did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Yes, I'm a proud Rajui yangba Man. So my mob
from the town of a community, small country town called
Caura on Radri Land, and also from Brewarriner and even
smaller town a part of the gangbar Nation. So i
grew up in Care, small small country town. I'm really
proud of that, a like, really proud to be a
(02:55):
country boy, really proud to be a radur Man. You know,
the history of the people is pretty well documented, you know,
where fierce warriors that stood up in the face of
the British against all odds. Like I'm really proud to
be descended from people like that. My upbringing was really
really great. I had such a I have such a
large family in Care. There's a huge Aboriginal community in
(03:17):
Care as well, and my family are sort of pretty
well established in that. So I grew up around a
lot of mob, a lot of cousins, and you know,
it's like most Aboriginal families. My cousins were like brothers
and sisters to me, you know, so we're that close,
and I grew up around them. I grew up plenty
of uncles and arnties, multiple nuns and pops, and really
(03:37):
importantly grew up around a lot of culture. Grew up
knowing our people's history, grew up knowing about the struggles
that we've been through, grew up learning about dreaming concepts
and ethics. Grew up learning language and knowing language and
speaking you know, broken English and parts of language in
our everyday life, and spending summers down at the river
with your cousins and with your mates and winters playing
(04:00):
and all that sort of stuff. And I'm really grateful
as you get older, you're able to appreciate that that
upbringing a little bit more so. Yeah, looking back on that,
it was a great time. And yeah, I'm really really
proud to be from Cawa, to be a country and
rodri boy. I always speak about it whenever anyone asked
me where I'm from or whatever, That's the first thing
I talk about. And I understand a lot of people
don't get that luxury. And I've grown up and moved
(04:22):
away since and met a lot of people, and you know,
everyone's got their own stories. But yeah, I just feel
that upbringing super unique, and it's something that I think's
really developed or played a huge part in my character development,
I guess up until this point. So and I sort
of really feel like a responsibility being raised on culture
and being raised on you know, knowing these things and
(04:44):
being well aware of the injustices and that that our
people have faced, and having older family members that are
pioneering and fighting for this stuff. I feel a real
responsibility to give back to such a beautiful culture and
a beautiful people, you know. So, yeah, that's sort of
I guess the in the belly comes from that.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Wow, that's so beautiful and special to hear that You've
got to grow up surrounded by family and culture, and
so it's probably not surprising that you've taken on this
path in life of wanting to honor and respect and
give back to those experiences. Do you get back to
Kara much now?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Bro? Yeah, I really make a point of it. I get,
like I'm sure most black fathers do. Really homesick, Like
a couple of weeks, I'm homesick. But where I'm living
at the moments about seven hours away from Cara. But
the last time I was there was Christmas. And I'll
try and get back, Yes, soon, I'll get there probably
once every I'd say six weeks at least two months,
(05:41):
Like I'm there fairly often and I've sort of identified
it as like I need to do that. That's something
I need to do to hum along and keep going
and keep everything into perspective. And that just comes down
to you. And I've been around mob and connecting to
my homeland, my home country. It is great when you
go home and having such a big family you see everyone,
like there's not many people in my mob that have
(06:02):
left care, like there are a couple, but yeah, you
do see all the mob when you go home. So
it is good.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
It's just that feeling where you can just be. It
recharges you so you can do that labor and so
it's beautiful to hear that that's a part of like
your self care, so that you can collectively care for people.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I'll tell you what's a real big thing for me
is like language is so important. And when I get
home and I get around my mob, and you know,
they're speaking language and there's traditional words filtered into pretty
much every single sentence. That to me is just like
a oh, you know, like I'm home, I'm safe. You
can drop your guard. And getting out in the professional
world and moving away from home, particularly in the healthcare space.
(06:44):
As a black fellow, you've got to drop a lot
of that. You've got to adopt a different way to talk,
and it's fatiguing, and you do feel like you've being
someone that's not you. So when you get home and
you can throw in some words and that to your mob,
that that's and it like as little as meeting a
black fellow. And you know how we do deadly hand,
don't go what's going on? Cuzzle, what's going on? Brola?
Even that is a mass slot.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I feel the same way too, you know, like code switching.
But it's more than that. I often think about how
beautiful it would be if we could speak our language.
But that's not only that we could speak it for
all of our people, but that it's understood by like
the colonizers or the settlers of the mainstream, and what
it would feel like to really be validated in your
(07:25):
unique experience because we are adopting colonizers words like we
don't we never use some of these things. And all
of those words have a whole range of feelings and
thoughts and you know, values and ideologies attached to them
as well. And so yeah, you're right just being able
to like, you know, be yourself. It really is so special.
But you're right, Like I remember when I went into
(07:47):
counseling down here and when I learned in health work, Yeah,
I found that, like your proximity to whiteness is so
prevalent because you have to treat not just your own mob,
but non Aboriginal people too, And like so many of
our MoMA oscillating between two different codes sometimes. But that's
(08:08):
just like a part of survival. Hey, Like we've had
to adapt to that.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, you're say right, it's hard, and like identity is
a really hard thing for a lot of our mob
these days to deal with and to come to terms
with them. We're all grappling with that. Not one Aboriginal
to and there is not affected by that in some way.
And we have to make ourselves fit into the society
that is now here to survive, to provide for our families,
(08:34):
to continue the survival of our culture. And that is
really hard tiptoe on keeping your own identity but also
finding a way to squeeze yourself into the white society
or Australia at large.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, preach, And that's why I think recently, especially after
the sort of faud referendum last year, I'm trying to
think about this notion of belonging and what are we
belonging to and what are we aspiring to belong to?
And you know how to miglus and modulers like you know,
start to belong to some of our value systems. Because
(09:05):
you're right what you said before. We're just it's such
a beautiful culture. We've got so much to offer, not
just our people, but all communities. We're all searching for it.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
In your job as physio and health worker, correct me
if I'm wrong, but I'm just speaking of my own
experience when I go to osteos and physios and I'm
really beg into mobility and strength and movement, And so
I understand as your role you sort of help patients
manage pain, you improve motion, you strength and muscles. I
imagine you work with people with injuries and just I guess,
(09:38):
enhance people's overall physical wellbeing. I wonder if anything in
your early life kind of led you down this path
of working in health, and particularly in this sort of industry,
in working with people's sacred bodies.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It's a really interesting story because it wasn't Plan A,
actually wasn't even Plan B. There's definitely something there that's
driven me to do it. So yeah, it is really interesting.
But plan a for me, like most country kids and
a lot of black kids too, to be honest, is
I wanted to play in the NRL. I thought I
was going to be a footballer, and I thought that
probably a bit too late into my adolescence. So when
I was around fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, I started going down
(10:15):
to Sydney to see if I could crack it playing
in the lower grades and that down there. But yeah,
when I was about sixteen or seventeen ish, I can't remember,
it was starting year eleven, I was down there and
I was you know, Sydney is hard for country follows
at the best, but I was missing more. But I
was missing country, missing mates. So I ended up packing
it in, giving up just miss mum, basically went back home.
(10:36):
So I got back home about a month or two
months into year eleven and I was like, ooh, okay,
so football, the dream ain't going to happen. I was
a bit stuck. I didn't know really what to do.
My dad was a teacher and I thought that looked
like a really good job. And then I've also got
my family's got an extensive background in health and Aboriginal
health in particular, Like I've got an armie that's a
(10:56):
nurse and doing really great things for Aboriginal people in
that space. And I've got another unt and uncle that
run a drag and alcohol rehab sano And I've always
been brought up now on the injustices our people face
in the healthcare system and how it's leading to quality,
but also quantity of the number of years of life
we live is just significantly less, and you know it
should be. So that was something that really motivated me.
(11:18):
I thought I could probably make a splash in that space.
I was inspired by these leaders in my family. So yeah,
leading into year twelve when the HC, I was thinking
healthcare would be something I'd be really interested to get
into because I could use my qualifications and my education
to springboard a bit of change for our mob hopefully.
And then why physio. When I was fifteen, I had
(11:39):
an ACL injury, so I spent it like a big
knee injury that I spent a lot of time rehabbing
with the physio and I was really interested in it.
I thought this is a cool way to stay close
to the human body and sport and staying fit but
not be in the sports. So I thought that was
a really interesting job. So in year twelve I really
focused on either education or physio. Whatever I got into
(12:00):
was going to take. And then we had an auntie
at Cara High School. I need Letitia Harris shout out
if you ever listening, aren't, but she would look after
the black fellows in year twelve and help us get
tutoring or help us think about careers or apply for UNI.
And she tapped me on the shoulder just as the
HC was sort of starting to roll around. They have
this thing up in Newcastle UNI where they there's a
(12:22):
program for Indigenous follows to come in and trial medicine
and see if you can make it, like as a
black doctor. They reserve a few spots in the degree
for that. And she's like, I mean you could probably
get in, Like your mark's looking pretty good and if
you apply and all that, there's a fair chance you'll
get in. And I was like, oh, what a doctor
Like I never thought of that. I never thought that
would be something even possible, So I thought it's a
(12:44):
big opportunity. I didn't think much about it. Just other
than it's a big opportunity I can't turn down. So
I did apply for that. When the time come around
to get into UNI, I actually got in and I
found out about that before anything else, so I just
sort of took it. So I actually spent my first
year at UNI in the medicine program at Newcastle and
it was interesting. It was really hard and a lot
of work, and I was way too young, and I
(13:05):
was dealing with moving away from home for the first time,
so I didn't do real well in it, and at
the end of that year, I then just transferred into
physio and then from the get go love my time
in physia. I've found a real passion with it. I
genuinely really enjoy meeting people and talking with people and
helping people get back to a position where they can
(13:25):
do everything they want to do in their life without
pain holding them back, or getting them back to a sport,
or getting them back to being able to walk the
dog or play with the kids or play with the
green kids. You know, that is really it's a great
job in the fact that it's really rewarding, and I
don't do it to feel good about myself, but being
there with someone as they achieved big goals that they
didn't think were possible. It's pretty special. And through the job,
(13:48):
I've learned a lot about the body. I've learned a
lot about pain. I've learned a lot about health and
all the complex things that go into that, and it's
something I'm really passionate about. It is Indigenous health and
Aboriginal torsha into health in particular life expectancy and the
rates of disease that we face, and that it's really complex, however,
arrived at the position we're in in terms of our
(14:09):
quality of health and quality of life. And I just
think I've developed that in my profession, some skills and
some knowledge that can hopefully make at least a little
bit of a change for one Black veather. So that's
where I'm seeing my career diverge now. I am still
really passionate about physio and I'll probably do it until
I retire, but I'm really trying to branch out into
more First Nations people's health stuff more specific to that.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
It's interesting how life and the ancestors sometimes have other
plans and so often whether we're ready to be open
and expansive to that new journey and you know, just
having an Arnie or family around to believe in you
and say, go, man, you know, give this a go.
Like we need that one or two people, whether in
(14:53):
our families or in our communities or at school or
in sport, to just give us that mission to give
something a go.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I don't know if that's the
same in like, you know, other other people's families, but
I've met a lot of people at Yuni. Their families
were really tough on them and really put a lot
of pressure on them and everything like that, and we're
a bit doubtful of the things they were doing. Like think,
I never thought about it at the time, but thinking
back on it, I had nothing. But if anyone was
(15:23):
doubting that, it was me. I was going, I can't
be like a doctor. I can't be a physio. I
don't know a single black physio. I can't be that.
But the mob were just like one hundred percent, Like
course you will, of course you'll be like there was
never any doubt And yeah, we take that for granted,
I guess until you look back on it, but yeah,
it is special.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, it's often just them like just sitting in asking
good questions and being curious, but then also giving you
a little bit of a challenge when you need to
hear it, like loving a loving little flog Yeah, give
give it a crack, yeah, And just to have that
person to sort of guide, you know how special and
for it to lead to this way. You know, it's
(15:59):
interesting what you say about, you know, going into a
field like physio for instance, and I'm just resonating with
something he said. So much is like that. Once you
get into this health industry, sometimes it takes such a
narrow focus, and it's when you're in aboriginal health. Everything
(16:19):
is intero related. You know. The profession at times doesn't
look at like the triads of health, so the connection
between mind and body and biochemistry, but also in many
cases doesn't look at the social emotional wellbeing of health,
the social determinants of health. And I also had those
epiphanies when I went to Union did counseling, and we
(16:40):
got taught about these, you know, white followers sitting around
thinking about stuff and having these epiphanies. And then all
these schools of thought were made after that, and then
how he treated the mind was based off that, and
there was never any relationship with the body, with land,
with culture, community. People would just treat it as these
(17:00):
like unilateral beings, you know, And I'm sure that maybe
you would have possibly experienced that, like, you know, looking
at say just one part of the body, but then
really zooming out and thinking about what is the relationship
between this pain and how complex and multifaceted it is,
and how much of our health as black follows, is
(17:24):
really around things like the cultural determinants and historical intergenerational
traumas and racism and access. So it becomes so much
bigger than just that the field that we're in.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Hey, you're one hundred percent right. And I guess my
burning sort of passion and what I really truly believe
in is all that sort of stuff because I have
been brought up on it. But I think you can
attribute ninety five percent of the failures of closing the
gap down to the fact that our mob have been
squeezed into a healthcare system based on Western values, and
(17:59):
that and value when it comes to health is you
treat the disease. It's more of like a curative sort
of approach. You treat the disease, you don't look at
the person. So it's not a person coming in with
heart disease with all these other things contributing. It's a
bad heart that they've got to fix, which they might
throw medication or whatever it is at It same in physio,
someone comes in with an injury like it, for example,
a knee injury, you're treating the knee, you're not treating
(18:22):
the person. That's the Western approach to things, and it
is really not working, like for most people, not just
Black Fellows, for most people, it's really not working. And
I guess I've sort of always had that mindset that
you know, there are other things that go into it.
When it comes to Blackfellows. We're not unhealthy because we
want to be unhealthy. It's we're not unhealthy because we'd
like to smoke and drink and eat poor and be
(18:43):
physically inactive. That is so incorrect. Why we're unhealthy is
it's a mix of so many complex things injustices in
the social determinents of health, a history of horrific abuse
and racism, discrimination, segregation in this country, dispossession, assimilation policies,
access to health care. There are so many different things
that go into where we are now that are just
(19:05):
so outside of that unilateral disease based approach, and if
we continue down this path, I know in physio, for example,
it's kind of changing a little bit now where people
are starting to treat the person and take a more
broader approach to it. Still in the early days though,
and a lot of people are skeptical and getting that wrong.
But if we continue, particularly in healthcare, to treat Aboriginal
(19:27):
people and torshot on the people based on Western health
values and approaches, we're going to continue to spin the
wheels in the mud and get nowhere. That's got to change.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
You're right in saying that this doesn't work for anyone, right,
I mean, particularly our mob because we've had these beautiful
protective factors like access to our kin, like access to
our land, like being able to be heard by our practitioners,
and all of those things. The whole paradigm of how
we look at health needs to change. And that's why
(19:56):
we need beautiful health workers like you and other in
that space to put Aboriginal social motion, wellbeing and Aboriginal
social determinants on the agenda because this system is failing us.
Last year, we did a project on racism in hospitals
when mob presented the emergency departments, even just getting them
to the hospital to feel safe to even present was
(20:19):
one thing. But then when they would engage or triage
again coming back to these speaking different languages, they weren't
being heard. And then it really is just this symptom base.
Often they weren't able to have family with them. There's
just so many things to even inhibit us to even
get there, and then once we're there, we're not looking
at the bigger picture. Yeah, it absolutely needs to change.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
What people got to realize and remember is when the
healthcare system was set up by the colonizers, it was
designed to exclude aboriginal and tyso on to people. We
initially and only in the last forty years or so
have we been able to fully take advantage of participate
in the Australian healthcare system. It was a place of
stream abuse through our mob going to the hospital often
(21:03):
was attributed with people dying and then the following sorry
business that would come after it. But I have an
Arnie and an elder in my community in who does
a lot of truth telling stuff and one of the
stories she tells about is when she was given birth
to her child, a black child. She went to Cawur Hospital,
got a gown put on with big three letters in
black Texter Abbo shoved out on the front veranda and
(21:23):
forced to give birth out there. Like the healthcare system,
it has not been designed to protect us. And you've
had I've seen you've had Taylor Gray on before and
she always talks about this, and it's really really important.
Until we can do things our own way, based on
our own values and our own traditional practices, things aren't
going to change for our people in this country. We
can't continue to squeeze our mob, with our own point
(21:45):
of view, our own approach to life, our own ancestral law,
and all that into a box that is based on
things not designed to protect us, initially designed to exclude us.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I mean, firstly, it's just so appalling to hear about
those stories. It wasn't even that long ago that people
were treated like that without any basic dignity or any
decency as a human And how deeply dehumanizing and how
devaluing of lives that is for our women, like our
sacred women. But you're right, bro in saying that, and
this is where we're at, this tricky time I think
(22:17):
post referendum. I don't know if you're feeling this, but
for such a long time there has been an appetite
to want to belong to and reconcile with and be
included in this system and have that sort of equity approach.
But now it's kind of like, no, we need to
go back to, we need to return to. Will be
(22:40):
back you mob right after this short break. I want
to ask you bro about this. I was thinking about
when I had you one. I was like I had
a million and one goad ask you, but I wanted
to sort of talk to you about the real relationship
(23:00):
between trauma and physical pain. I know a lot of
the people I work with because we take a really
holistic approach. We introduce a lot of somatic work, a
lot of movement, a lot of breath work. I know
in my own practice, I have an autoimmune condition called
loopers and movement has just changed my life. And similarly,
(23:22):
like the Western wellbeing diet fad culture has kind of
kiboshed this to make it this gym fad, you know,
go top a five and run every morning on sort
of thing, and it becomes another like cognitive load and
to do list, But just like gentle movements like walking
and waking up with country or stretching or you know,
(23:46):
just allowing the body to sort of move through stuff
has literally changed my life in so many ways. I
wanted to ask you about it. Could you like explain
maybe the relationship between trauma and physical pain and how
it can manifest in our bodies.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Yeah. Absolutely. First of all, that is unreal that you've
been able to do that, because it is people really
underestimate it unless you've experienced it. It is really hard
to break that and often, you know, even trying to
explain it to people like movement really does help. I
would say a significant proportion of people that deal with
that don't break free, but people live their lives in
(24:24):
this persistent chronic pain. That's really debilitating and unreal that
you've been able to do that good stuff, And it's
good that it's good to hear that as like a
health professional, because we're often trying to get people to
that point and a lot of people doubt that that's
actually what's got to happen. They think they need more treatment,
they need more needing or massage, or they need opioids
or something like that. When really, you know, what you're
(24:45):
sort of living is the real thing that works. So
it's really complex. This stuff. Pain is really really complex.
I'm definitely not an expert, but I think I understand
it enough to explain it to people in a way
that I hope can help them along the path are
dealing with it. The trauma definitely, or any sort of
mental health condition definitely plays a huge role in the
(25:07):
experience of pain or the presence of pain. What you're
going to think about, like, pain is an experience, right,
Pain is a thing that your brain perceives. Does that
make it not real? No, because pain is a real thing,
And trying to explain to people that it's not all
in their head is really really hard because people do
take it that way. If pain is an experience and
it's my brain that's feeling it, then does that mean
I'm making it up? That is completely not true, and
(25:30):
it's really hard to tiptoe around that. But if you
think about acute pain, so acute pain, maybe you have
an injury, or maybe you've put your hand on a
hot stove, so you've got a physical thing happening in
your body, tissue damage or whatever. It might be. Some
physical stimulus that is sending a response through your nervous
system to your brain basically alert in your brain. We
need to get out of this situation. We need to
(25:51):
protect ourselves, We need to sort it out that your
brain's ain't going to produce a pain response. But often
you get people that have gone past this point where
there's actually no tissue damage, there's no physical thing going wrong,
but there's still feeling pain as if there was something
going on. So what basically is happening there is your
nervous system is so wound up that it is sending
(26:12):
me out a pain or your brain is producing a
pain response basically to no stimulus. And if you think
about that, just because there's no stimulus doesn't mean that
that pain response is just as real as if you'd
rolled an ankle, or as if you'd cut a finger off.
That pain response is just as real. Your experience of
it is just as real, and often it actually gets
worse longer it goes on. So you've got a nervous
(26:34):
system that is so alert and so ready to send
something to the brain to equal pain. And what is
a big thing that contributes to that wound up nervous
system or that really sensitive nervous system is the way
that your mental health is at the time. So if
you're going through any sort of traumas, or if you've
got any sort of mental health condition PTSD, depression, anxiety, anything,
(26:56):
anything like that, it is going to significantly iffect the
way your nervous system is functioning and therefore then significantly
affect the experience of pain. So one of the things
I try and identify because we see it really often.
It manifests in many different ways in the profession. Really commonly,
we might see someone with back pain or neck pain
that's been going on for eight plus years. So whatever
(27:18):
injury they did to their back has well and truly
at a tissue level repaired, but they've still got this
pain that they're experiencing in the same area, just as
if they did the injury yesterday. And one of the
big things I try and identify early with someone like
this completely scrap the back, like you do think about it,
but you don't focus on it. I want to learn,
is there things that may be contributing to the nervous
(27:39):
system here that we call them psychosocial flags. Is there
anything like mental health challenges? Is there any family things,
any work pressures, have you lost someone recently, you know,
are you going through challenging times, because all those things
will impact the way that you experience pain or when
it comes to what do you do? Then if you
just take an approach to the perceived injury, just treated
(28:00):
the back with certain treatment and then giving you some
exercises just for the back, things are unlikely to change
because you haven't addressed the things that are likely winding
up your nervous system. So I take multiple approaches when
trying to help people with this, and mind body connection
is one of the big first things we look at.
So I'll get people to use a diary and are
(28:21):
there times where mentally you're going through things that are
quite tough or not feeling one hundred percent and is
that correlating with an increasing pain? And often people will see, yeah,
I've had a really bad day to day and yeah,
my pain is really through the roof you might have.
Then you know they've gone had a really happy day
where they've been able to get out and do stuff
and connect with family, connect with country, eaten well, they've
(28:41):
slept well, and then you'll see that that directly correlates
with a decrease in the experience of pain. So it's
a really complex sort of relationship, but it's definitely real,
and it's really poorly managed both by the healthcare profession
and the purely the people that have it. They're just
not given the right information, so it's not their fault.
So yeah, it is really complex, but it's definitely there,
(29:03):
and it's something that's really challenging to work through with people.
What I usually do and what has been found to
be quite effective, is like what you've found taking an
active based approach. So I'm making sure people have established
this mind body connection and we need to address any
mental health things going on that needs to be addressed,
otherwise things aren't going to change. The next thing we
look at is you know, sleep, nutrition, are you handling those? Okay?
(29:27):
Then we look at activity, and initially it's really challenging
because you might be only able to tolerate a ten
minute walk down the end of the hallway before your
pain starts going off, So that's where you've got to start,
and then you slowly, slowly build it up and like
exactly what you just touched on about this whole gym
culture and fad diets and health influences on Instagram. It's
(29:48):
becoming so dangerous for a lot of people, and it's
really turning down this sort of dark side where you're
pressured or you're made to feel inferior, or made to
feel like you're not working hard enough. But it can
be as simple as walking to the mailbox and back
a few days through the week, and then on that
you build something bigger and that is honestly your doorway
and your pathway out of that persistent pain.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Could have used this yan I reckon with you maybe
a few years ago when I was navigating this process,
but it's so fascinating. There's a couple of things I
want to touch on what you've just said there, which is,
you know, I think for a lot of black followers
as well, who have been in a state of hypervigilance
for such a long time, the body keeps a score.
You know, they are remembers. It has a cellular level
(30:31):
of memory as well, and so I think that's why
it's really nice to sort of hear that as part
of your work. There is this sort of integration about
a multifaceted, holistic approach that doesn't just treat that ailment
or that part of the body. Do you think that
the industry is kind of changing in that space.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, I hope. So if i'd just like keep it
from a physio point of view, in the physio realm,
there's evidence and studies that have been done on people
on physios managing people with persistent pain and those that
have extra training in psychological care and mental health first aid,
they get superior results with people. So if you have
training in that and you're more aware of that, you're
(31:11):
going to get way better results with the people that
are dealing with that stuff. So, yes, it definitely needs
to be something that is more focused on moving forward
for all health professionals. If you just narrow it down
to blackfeathers, the way forward to a better position of
health quality and quality of life for our mob, health
and wellbeing for our mob. We need to start offsetting
(31:32):
the social determinants of health that we have massive disparities
with with the cultural determinates of health. You mentioned the
cultural determinants of health a little bit earlier, so there
are things like connection to country, language, expression of culture, family, kinship, community,
all that sort of stuff. We need to start focusing
resources and manpower and efforts into those things. Basically, we
need to start managing our mob based on our own
(31:55):
values and based on our way of life and our
way of doing things. I can't see any way other
than that for us to move forward. And if you
look at like work from like the book The Dreaming Path,
or if you look at Bruce Pasco's Dark Emu, like,
our way of life would significantly benefit every single person.
We survived sixty five possibly plus thousand years on the
(32:18):
harshest continent in the world. These things work, Our way
of life works. It's not magic or airy fairy like.
We need to start channeling yeah, resources and that into
that sort of area. And that's the only way I
say this moving forward.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I want to be open about this and say that
it has been a huge journey, like two and a
half years of navigating the systems and testers and MRIs
and all of those things, and a lot of the
times I was met with this it's in your mind
and it's just stress. Manage the stress, and you think, oh,
that kind of makes you a little bit more stressful.
(32:51):
I've got of those things to do. But there are
so many different things in our toolkit, and there is
not a one size fits all, if we can find
some of the things that we actually like that we
don't feel co opted or forced to do, and create
a bit of a little I've got a mind body
food community list. You know, when I went through this process,
(33:15):
the doctors wanted to, yeah, just load me up with
pain management, all of the anti inflammatories, and I was like, yeah, look,
I could possibly spend my life taking all this medication
and just accepting this, I guess and then be I
really didn't want to become or identify with the illness.
I wanted to be like, I am a person who
is experiencing chronic pain rather than I am the person
(33:39):
who is who is sick. And so I sort of thought, okay,
what is within the sphere of my control? And I
always go back to like how our ancestors lived and
what they did, And you know, we did a lot
of like with my osteo and physio support, going and
hanging on monkey bars, like using different arms because that's
(33:59):
what maybe what we would done, and long walks and
just trying to go back to some of the slower movement.
And it was such a gradual, gradual. It doesn't happen
overnight that you just start moving your body. It's literally
and some days you don't too, Like, let's be honest,
some days you don't have it and that's okay, But
it's like building a bit of self trust with myself
that okay, I intuitively know what I need, which is
(34:22):
a part of like decolonizing some of this health as well.
But for me, there's been four key things that have
really helped me and in managing my mind and managing
my thoughts. I've always had an ability to go to
counseling and coaching and journal because that's my profession and
I'm a talker and so you know, understanding the relationship
between my thoughts and my feelings is something that I
(34:42):
sort of had. But learning to move the body and
learning to connect to the body was such a process.
I was like disconnected from head to body. I became
that separation. So it does take time and like getting
some clarity and trusting yourself and do those small like
inner acts of self love. And it doesn't have to
(35:05):
be hard fast, and it doesn't have to be focused
on yeah, weight and outcome. It can just be like
moving because you feel good and food. Food has changed,
you know, we've looked a lot at food. You know,
a lot of us black followers and even you know,
other marginalized people of color. We're eating diets and foods
that our ancestor is never ate, you know, and that's
(35:26):
got huge inflammatory and so I try to just think
about what did our ancestors eat, you know, try to
eat more more plant food, more veg And the one
other thing is if you can find a community to
do it with, you know, because we are operating community,
so like having a group gym or going to a
group dance class, or you know, is there somewhere you
can wrap around a community to do it with, because
(35:48):
we never did all of this stuff in isolation before.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Too exactly right, Yeah, you're so so correct. On my
social media page when I'm trying to motivate mod to exercise,
I don't say go to the gym and track your
weight and you take progress pictures of yourself. Like I'm saying, traditionally,
we would move a lot across the land to hunt
the care for the land, to make things sustainable. So
if you can go for as simple as a walk
(36:12):
in some way that's culturally significant, like a place of
on your home country in a park along the river,
you know, anything like that, and if you can take
a mob member with you and discuss it, you know,
talk about things that you're dealing with, and if you
can use language while you're doing that, if you can
then turn that into some community basing, like a group
exercise thing run by black fathers for black fathers, you're
ticking off like almost every single cultural determinative health. You're
(36:34):
not just going to get the physical benefits from exercise
and eating well and talking. You've got all those cultural
things and that connection to culture coming as well. So
what you've done is exactly where we need to get
for most people, and you're living proof that it helps.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Thank you, Bro. And yeah, I want to put a
huge caveat on it and say that it's a bloody journey.
It's hard, and we've got old habits and we're trying
to change them and rewire new pathways, and it's certainly
not easy. But I think it's coming back to like, yeah,
doing things that you actually like. You know. With that
in mind, Bro, I want to ask you, you know,
(37:10):
in making some of these changes in your life around health,
did you notice any changes. I think sometimes when we
take a path like we stop drinking or we stop
doing something, there is a grief and a loss of
this identity or maybe relationships. I know, I've really struggled.
I felt at times when I've had to make decisions
(37:30):
that yeah, I'm not out on the charge on certain
times or whatever it might be. And so I've had
to like let some relationships go. I've had to let
some beliefs about myself go. I want to ask you
about that. You know, when you began to sort of
place a bit of a priority on your health, Like
what are some of the things that you noticed personally
about your life and your relationships from.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
A young age, Like my family, uncle's annie is, everyone
was playing sport. My dad would go to the gym,
So I grew up around people exercising, but I never
really knew a bit exercise for health. That will always
go to the gym to look a certain way or
weigh a certain weight or that sort of thing. And
that's something that I've only just recently, in the last
couple of years, really started to develop a healthier relationship
(38:13):
with There's a very big dark side to things like
exercise and nutrition and a health routine that people often
don't talk about you can become obsessed with these things
and they can negatively impact your life. For me, I exercise,
sleep well, and eat well and try to stay as
close to cultural values as possible because I want to
feel better and be a better meat so I can
(38:34):
then be a better resource or support person for my
mob and family and my friends. That's what I'm trying
to do. But if I rely solely on those things
to feel that way, inevitably you're going to go through
periods of your life where you can't do those things.
You might be on a holiday, you might be sick,
you might have an injury, work might be busy, you
might have just had a kid. There are always going
(38:54):
to be things that are going to pull you away
from that, And if you're solely relying on that to
be okay, have a lot of trouble. And I've had
a lot of trouble with that. Also when it comes
to exercise, this is something that a lot of people
struggle with, particularly nowadays with social media. Like if you're
exercising purely to have a six pack, or purely to
have a big barm, or purely to have like look
(39:16):
good on Instagram, you're not doing it for the right reasons,
and you're never ever going to feel okay. You're going
to continuously bust yourself at the gym and sacrifice other
areas of your life for a metric or a bar
that will continue to outpace you. So yeah, that's really challenging.
But the big things I've sort of noticed in that
change from that into more of it. I'm exercising to
(39:37):
live longer, so that I'm living longer, happier, healthier I
can be around for my family. That's the main reason
I'm now exercising, and there's not that pressure. I enjoy
exercising now, like I enjoy going for a run. I
really enjoy going to the gym. It's a bit of
me time, like I thoroughly enjoy doing it. I don't
really get burnt out, like it's something I do most
days without having to think about it. And that's all
(39:58):
come from that shift in mind set. Also, things like
your relationships and everything like that. If you're a better
version of yourself, you can turn up a lot better
in those. But there's also the flip side. These things
are time consuming. Eating well often means sacrificing going out
for dinner or making it a little bit difficult. Exercising
is time consuming. You might be missing times with family, friends,
(40:18):
you know, people that you love because you're going to
do these things. Sleep takes a lot of sacrifice, you know,
not staying up late, not watching TV late, eating at
certain times if you want to sleep well. There's a
lot of sacrifice that comes with this stuff that can
pull you away from other important areas of your life,
like relationships, like friendships and family. When I'm really stuck
in a routine and I'm hammering exercise and I'm really
(40:39):
trying to sleep and I'm really trying to eat well,
Like I could go a week or a bit over
a week without talking to my mom or my brother,
or family or friends, and that is something I value
way more than this other health related stuff. But it
seems that I can it can pull you out of
that so easily. So it is really really challenging to
find that balance, and to be honest, I haven't really
(41:01):
found it yet, but it's something I'll continue to sort
of work on. And one thing, like you were just
saying at the start, that I'm really been trying to
change in the last probably twelve to eight a months,
and this year. It's taking up a lot more of
my focus is getting off the charge and like really
railing in the amount of times, like doing things out
of alcohol related because it is something the more I've
(41:22):
followed this path of learning about our mob and trying
to be a leader in this space and inspire people
to live healthy lives, it is something that has been
introduced into our communities at a time of real vulnerability,
during dispossession and invasion and simulation times. Not a single
Indigenous person in the country was not experiencing significant trauma,
(41:44):
like an entire race of people are experiencing absolute horrors.
This is what leads into intergenerational trauma as well. Every mob,
every single person of every single mob is going through
something still, and concurrently they've introduced or colonized, have introduced
the alcohol at the same time. And you know, I
wasn't around them to know exactly why, but I'm sure
in the back of their minds there was this notion
(42:06):
or this thought that this will seem temporary relief to
these people, but it's going to be destructive in the
long run. So let's try and get it into these
communities as a way to break them up, and we
are really really with that still in our communities. It's
a big thing and if you look at all the
major health things that we face, it is one of
the hugest risk factors there. So that's something I'm really
trying to nut down on. Like this year, I've sort
(42:28):
of given myself a rule. I'm not no drinking at
all unless there's something really significant like a wedding, and
even then I'm having an internal battle about that stuff
because it's really going against things that I value. Last
year I rained it in a lot as well. And
you are right, there are really big things that you'll notice.
They will be positive in the long run, but they're hard.
Like relationships, like friendships, there are certain people you won't
(42:49):
see as much. Like I've got certain friends who I
thought were really great friends, but looking back on it,
I've only ever seen them if we're out on the
charge or they only want to hear from me if
I'm going to come and have a charge with them.
And it is hard, but you've got to drop them
like unfortunately you need to, and it's not an easy
thing to do, but long run, it will work out.
So yeah, it is really challenging that sort of stuff.
(43:10):
I haven't actually mastered it yet, so I'll hopefully get
back to you and once I'm at a place where
I feel I have the balance of it all. But yeah,
it's really challenging, and unfortunately, to get to a place
where you're functioning at somewhere close with your values and
living a life that you want to leave it does
not come without significant sacrifice, unfortunately, and it's going to
be short term pain, but it's long term game. So
(43:32):
I've got a lot of members of my family that
don't drink at all, and they're living happy, healthy lives
and they're really available for their family members, and I've
had unfortunately, like a lot of black families, it go
down the other path as well, where it's absolutely destroyed
lives and families. So I can see both sides, and
I know which side of the fence I want to
be on, and it is hard, but it's got to
(43:53):
be done. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Firstly, I want to say thank you for your honesty,
because I too have not mastered it, and I think
think it's really important as health workers, and especially our
original health workers, that we be honest and authentic and
standing the truth of that we're all in a business
of truth telling. And I don't think any of us
have mastered it. We have old wounds and old habits,
(44:17):
and you know, we have learned and been conditioned through
colonization and then through the impacts of that through our families,
and so these are really hard things to shift. And
so I really want to say thank you for your honesty,
and yeah, I have certainly not got it mastered either,
and I think it's important we share that. The other
thing I want to talk about is around yeah, like
(44:39):
this notion of sacrifice that you said, and how Yeah,
it is hard to find that balance and what are
we prioritizing. You know, when we're saying yes to something,
we're saying no to something, we're saying no to something,
you know, we're saying yes to something else. And you're
right there underneath this sort of like pursuit to better
and improve our lives through health and wellbeing. I guess
(45:02):
there can be a really insidious and dark culture around
that striving and perfectionism and comparison and you know, that
sort of ego and Instagram life, that curated life that
we see, and so there is sort of, yeah, sometimes
a darker culture behind some of this stuff, and I
think everyone who has tried to better themselves, it's so
(45:26):
emblematic of the Western system to be like, if I
just do this, this and this, I'm going to get
this outcome. And anyone who's trying to better themselves will
have experienced those feelings of not being good enough, adequate,
having to strive, having to work hard, and that can
also create a level of unrest within. You know, I've
(45:47):
been really open to about like my relationship with alcohol
on the podcast and just personally because I try to
be really open and yeah, I've had a very very
complicated relationship with it. Both my parents were really heavy drinking,
and you know that both of them past it, you know,
sixty and alcohol related issues. But I also have this
(46:07):
tendency to be one of those all or nothing people.
What I've had to learn is to like uncomplicate it
a little bit, like uncomplicate that thing that I have
to be on or off and how do I find
this middle ground? And so some days, like I think,
you do fall off the bandwagon, you do fall off
the health and wellbeing thing. You might have that drink,
(46:29):
you might you know, pick up something that you're trying
to get rid of and it's like, how do we
lean into those moments with kindness and be like, Okay,
I've just had to relearn this, you know, rather than
like that shame spiral and guilt. That's one thing that
is really I've had to really learn is like I
am going to fall off the routines that I set
(46:50):
at times, but how do we give ourselves a bit
of like grace and space? And Yeah, I feel like
I've had periods where I've drank really heavily, and I've
had periods where I've taken time off the drink. And
every time I've taken time off the drink, I as
hard as it has been at first, I've never regretted it,
(47:10):
and I felt so much better energetically, And like you say,
when we're in the business of working with our mob
and we've got this sense of responsibility and we're here
to serve and support and guide, we're much better equipped
to manage that and deal with our mob when we
are in a better energetic and more connected place.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
I appreciate your honesty as well, and it's so important
for people to hear like I had a similar thing.
I would go periods where I just wouldn't drink it all,
Like months where I wouldn't drink it all, and then
you know, I'd have one night on the drink where
I'd just absolutely like tear the walls down, and that,
to me was something I had to start looking at
it. And when you unpack it, what was going on for
me is like I would be so strict on myself
(47:54):
for months to live a certain way. Then when it
came to the time to let your head down, I
was just like trying to find a way to escape
the pressures of the person I was. I just was unhappy.
And in that one night where I'm like writing myself
off on the drink, I'm experiencing fake, but at least
temporary happiness. So you've got to strip that back and
work out why am I doing this to myself? I
(48:15):
had a problem with alcohol, not drinking every single day
or even every single month, but getting to a point
where you're trying to escape your real feelings in your
real world world. That's a real problem, and you've got
to dig deep to ask the question why am I
doing this? Why do I need to have a drink
If I'm doing it to be social, why do I
need it to be social, you've got to try and
unpack that, otherwise it can be very destructive, and unfortunately
(48:39):
our people see that a lot.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Cut from the same cloth. I feel exactly the same
way when we put in these conditions, we yeah, we
want to break free of that and asking ourselves, Yeah,
what are we searching for in these moments. In twenty
twenty one, we took my partner and I almost a
year off, and there's this sweet spot in life where
you can still maintain your relationships. There's really great non
(49:03):
alcoholic drinks out there too, so you can still have
something in your hand, I guess. But you go out
and you can yarn with people, you can have a connection,
you can have a good feed. I'd go out, I
would talk to people, I would be able to follow
up with them, I would be present with them, and
I would go home and sleep, and I'm free. I
could get up in the morning and the day's mind.
(49:24):
I'm not laying on that couch doom scrolling, eating KFC
like you know, really self loathing. I was free, and
it is a sweet spot. And what's really been really
beautiful Over the last few years, We've got a lot
of our friends in our circle who have also started
to change their ways as well with that, and we've
not attached all of our stuff around booths, like we'll
(49:46):
go it out of the beach for a swim, we'll
go for a walk and do brunch, or you know,
we'll get the dogs down too the park and catch up.
It's really tricky at first if you're doing these things
and you're feeling isolated. Like you said before, some people
do need to go. Like some people are just the
fun time people, and they're always going to be the
fun time people. But the people who are worthy and
will stick around will change some of those habits with you.
Speaker 2 (50:09):
They'll be there. They really love you and care about you,
and they're meant to be in your life. They'll be there,
So don't worry, like if people are falling off to
the side, they're probably not meant for you.
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Oh, I could speak to you all day, my brother.
I really, I mean, I'm really glad that we had
this open, honest conversation. Maybe a lot of people and
listeners are probably thinking about their resolutions and what they
want to set up for the year and all of
those things. I personally have struggles with resolutions, but what
sort of life they want to live? What are they
going to take on this year? And I think, yeah,
anchoring this conversation in a real honest conversation about just
(50:42):
being a bit kinder, uncomplicating it, giving yourself permission to
try some things you like, and just be gentle with
your spirit as you try new things, and building in
some of that time to give something a crack and
just check in with your intuition, your sacred come and
say like does this fill me up? How can I
(51:03):
choose more of this? Do I want to let something go?
And just kind of being really gentle and iterative with
ourselves this year and trying our best to unplug and
uncomplicate it so we can nurture ourselves and nurture our communities. Yeah,
thank you so much for today's conversation.
Speaker 2 (51:21):
Thanks for having me on. It's been really really good.
I think we've talked about some things that are really
important for not just mob everyone to hear, so hopefully
they'll take something from it.
Speaker 1 (51:31):
And where can we all keep up with your magic
and your information and all the deadly things you're doing.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram and TikTok at
the Cory physio. And then I'm also I've got a
couple of logs on YouTube that I'm hoping to start
up and put a bit more up as well.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Amazing we'll pop all of that in our show notes
so you can listen to Juy's amazing work. Thank you
so much for being on the show today, Brother, I
really appreciate you and all you're doing, and it was
just so lovely to care.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
You're welcome anytime, anytime.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
What a beautiful and generous and inspiring conversation with brother
boy Jay Murray for me, It's really reminded me of
the importance of nourishing our sacred bodies, not just for
our mental, emotional, and spiritual health, but also how we
(52:26):
can return back to stillness in our body, how we
can return back to some sense of calm and awareness
in the body. So I guess my invitation to you
MOB today is how can you provide a little extra
love and nourishment to your beautiful bodies today? Thank you
(52:49):
so much for listening you Mob. If you are vibing
this season of yarning up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us
some love. Rate and review. Alternatively, you can get in
contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot
(53:10):
Caroline Coow, dot com dot au
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.