Karlie Noon – Blazing Trails in Science and Indigenous Knowledge

Ever been curious about Aboriginal astronomy and how the night sky has guided mobs for thousands of years?

In this episode of Yarning Up, Caroline sits down with Karlie Alinta Noon, a Gamilaroi astrophysicist, author, and advocate for Indigenous and women’s rights in STEM. Karlie is the first Indigenous Australian woman to graduate with a double degree in maths and physics, and she’s currently completing a PhD in astrophysics at the Australian National University. As the co-author of the award-winning book Astronomy: Sky Country, Karlie is committed to making STEM and Indigenous knowledge accessible to all.

During the conversation, Caroline and Karlie delve into her incredible journey—from growing up on Gamilaroi Country surrounded by strong matriarchs, to taking on her matriarchs strength in a male-dominated field. Karlie shares how Indigenous wisdom has shaped her understanding of the universe, and her groundbreaking research exploring the Milky Way’s nuclear wind using radio telescopes.

Karlie also opens up about the personal challenges she faced growing up in a low-income family and how her passion for science blossomed through the support of a kind Aunty. Together, they discuss the importance of Indigenous representation in science, the value of community, and how traditional knowledge systems can offer solutions to modern challenges.

You won’t want to miss this powerful yarn. To learn more about Karlie Noon, follow her journey and research here.

Follow Caroline on Instagram:
@blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here.

We would like to acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where this podcast was taped, and pay our respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Elders, past, present, and emerging across Australia.

This podcast is brought to you by On Track Studio.
www.ontrackstudio.com.au
@on.track.studio

For advertising opportunities, please email: [e-mail]

 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Podcast Unite Our Voices. This podcast is brought to you
by on Track Studio. Welcome to Yannier, the podcast that
showcases First Nations stories and conversations to help us learn

(00:25):
and unlearn Australia's history to work towards a better future.
I'm your host, proud barber woman and founder of Black
Wattel Coaching and Consulting, Caroline cow We acknowledge the rundery
people and elders where this podcast is taped, but we

(00:47):
also acknowledge the lands that you are listening in from today.
It always was and always will be unseated Aboriginal and
tourist Red Islander Land. Well, I'm so excited about today's
conversation as some one who has i'd say, spent many
years observing and pondering and screaming and looking into the

(01:10):
sky ex essentially sort of crying out at times. I'm
really grateful to be joined today by Karli Alinta noon
A gamill Roy, author, astronomer, astrophysicists. I'd probably go so
far as any black fellow to say in activists, who's
really radically changing things? The first Aboriginal woman to graduate

(01:34):
with a double degree in maths and science and just
an all round legend who is really changing how we
come to know aboriginal science. So I'm so grateful for
you being here today. Welcome to Yanni Up.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Thank you so much of my goodness. That was like
the best intro I've ever received. I think, Oh, bless you, Oh,
thank you so much for having me. I was so excited.
I feel really lucky to be here. You know, I
feel like yawning up. You know, from the outset looking in,
it looks like a really deadly family. So I'm really

(02:11):
stoked to be a part of it.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Bless you so right, it is a big giant kinship,
and yeah, the feeling is so mutual. And yeah, I
mean I must say, even looking at your bio in
trying to surmise all of the wonderful things you have
done and continuing to do, was not an easy feat.
You are a hugely accomplished scholar doing such phenomenal work.

(02:37):
So I'm excited to learn more not only about your work,
but more about you. Sis. You know who you are
and what's laid you to this part. So yeah, I
guess you know. With that in mind, we always like
to sort of start by just asking our guests to
introduce themselves how they you know, would like to be introduced,
or to describe themselves how they want to be described.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Look, every time I do this, I think it's a
bit different. But you know, I grew up on country,
on Camillary country. I was really lucky. I was really
blessed that I had that, and you know, still have
that grounding me to this day. I grew up with
my mum and my sister and a big line of

(03:22):
matriarchs before me. My family is so like women dominated.
We don't have many many in our families. So the
women were just running wild. My mum and my sister
had it pretty rough. They were, you know, very able
in their bodily capacity. You know, I had a lot

(03:45):
of health problems, a lot of social problems. You know,
we grew up very very poor. We grew up in
a suburb called cold Ol in Tamworth, which you know
I love and I'm so proud to come from there
and you know, go back and visit as much as

(04:06):
I can. And but you know, it was rough and
it's you know, you don't know that when you're going up,
you know, you just do what you've got to do.
But today, like, I'm so freaking blessed. I'm so freaking
lucky that for so many reasons that I was born
you know, with a relatively able body, you know, and

(04:33):
I had a huge amount of passion and motivation and determination,
like you know, to help my mom out, help my
sister out. I always you know, wanted to be the
one who could like buy the mayhouse and all this,
and still haven't quite made it there, but still trying,
still still working. That's a work in progress. Yeah, I

(04:58):
do astronomy stuff and science stuff. I often think like
anyone who was in the same situation that I was
born in would probably be in a very similar place.
Like I had all this support and motivation from my family,
not just my mom and my sister, but from my
grandma as well, and you know, just people really cheering

(05:22):
me on. And when I started to you know, get
a bit of a name for myself. Not that I
try to like bignoe myself too much these days, but
like you know, when communities started hearing my name a
bit more, like I had so many arnies back home
just like cheering for me, and just like, you know,

(05:44):
I really do feel really blessed and just the result
of all of these matriarchs who are you know, come
before me and kind of allowed me to have the
perceptions that I have, to have the insight that I
have inside the country, you know, the values that I

(06:05):
have in country, in the sky, in people, you know,
expecting that the utmost from people from you know, the government,
all these things. So yeah, I don't know, I don't
know if that describes myself very much. I guess like

(06:26):
if they were like dot points, you know, it would be.
So I'm a descendant from actually both capillary and Rovegerie nations.
I'm getting a bit older now. I'm not old, but
I'm getting a bit older, and I think that you know,
I'm I'm thirty four now, and I've been doing this
for a little bit for about fifteen years, you know,

(06:47):
I've been kind of working professionally and doing like science
communication and communication in general, and over that time, like, yeah,
just that motivation from from back home really really pushed
me through that and helped me with start and guided
me through that as well.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
So I love it. I mean, this is why it's
so beautiful to start there and as mob we do
this so inherently, but I think it does start to
give us a bit of a glimpse into you know,
not just all of the wonderful contributions you've made, but
hearing about your early life and you know, growing up
on country surrounded by women who dominated and were bold

(07:30):
and ambitious and unapologetic sounds like breeding grounds for somebody
who can go ahead and achieve such milestone. So it's
it's fascinating because that's all related to what you're you know,
burthing into the world now, these these early experiences. So
it's kind of really beautiful to hear that and that
your family have been in your corner supporting you because

(07:53):
we need it, because it's a heart I imagine being
the first of anything for any mob, but particularly as
a woman, especially as a person of color, you know,
navigating an un charted traversing that on your own, you
need that support behind you. So it's beautiful to hear
my sister.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, Like there were many times like I never you know,
I never grew up particularly well educated, Like I spent
a lot of time at home growing up. I didn't
go to school very much. I was actually I would
get in trouble a lot for not going to school
and that's because you know, I had responsibility at home.
I had to look after mum, and we're poor. You know,

(08:34):
It's it's really hard to get to school and you
don't have lunch, you don't have you don't have a
washing machine, you don't have a uniform like and so
like I was always playing catch up at school at UNI,
like I was never you know, at the same level
as my peers. And it's really freaking hard when you

(08:57):
have so much going on in the outside to you know,
get to the study and to go through that grind
and go to the classes and you know, give your
all to the assignments and the homework and all that,
and to be so different all your peers who you know,

(09:18):
this is this is the same for any any woman
going through this as well, not just you know, not
just indigenous or form a minority, but any woman going
through science as well. You know, all your peers are male,
and they're all incredibly privileged, which is just not relatable

(09:39):
to a lot of us. So honestly, my mum, she
she is one hundred percent of the reason I got there.
And my sister, you know, when just those times when
I'm so exhausted I'm sobern out, I'm so beaten by
it all, and just to be able to call, you know,
my family and and you know, cry and have doubts

(10:04):
and be scared and just for them to just be
cheeringly on the whole way. Just absolutely never question my
ability to do it and never also never question what
I'm doing, you know it can you can the amount
of times I've questioned, you know, do I belong here?
Like should I be here? It's this isn't really form,

(10:27):
like this isn't built for me, so like why am
I doing this? But for them? Like you know, my
mom never knew what physics was. There was never something
that you know, she she had to know what it was,
but she never questioned that I could do it or
that I should be there. And just having that like
you know, unwavering support and love like I literally wouldn't

(10:50):
wouldn't be here without it.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Wow, I'm just taking that in because that's truly so
so beautiful to hear, my sis, Because to have that
unconditional love and acceptance when we need to draw on
the strength and being grounded and humbled in an environment
like you say, that's not built for us. We don't
see ourselves. We have no privilege, our proximity to whiteness

(11:14):
and imperialism, and our sense of identity and belonging. I
imagine it would bring up a whole flurry of very
normal feelings about my identity and my and my adequacy.
And it's just beautiful to hear that throughout it that
you had your family there. But I know also too
that it's you know, it's a reciprocal thing. It was family,

(11:36):
but it was also your ability to you know, push
through and produce and do this as well. And with that,
my sister, you know, I was reading, which I would
love to understand. You know, I was reading and you
mentioned it before that you know, you you, like most
black followers who are struggling to survive and are caring

(11:58):
to be self actualizing and learning and even getting ourselves
to school is a hard feat. And so I read
you know that growing up you didn't really like science
or maths or anything. So what was the shift from say,
you know, yeah, early life family into going right, I'm
going to try my hand at becoming an astrophysicist and

(12:20):
a scientist. What was there was there a change within
yourself and was it sort of supported by the environment.
Was there anything that led to it? Yeah, king to
to know the journey.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
That's a really great question. And you know, it's something
that I've spent a lot of time reflecting on. And
it wasn't like one change. It was. It was so
many different things kind of all coming together for it
to you know, end up like this. I think that
one of the earliest and biggest things that impacted me
was so my grandma had had this really close friend

(12:56):
and you know this she was. She was an older lady.
She was an older Aboriginal lady, and you know, she
had many grains kids and she was just this the
loveliest woman. And she'd come down to coldal and she
should go to like a bunch of you know, family
homes and tut to us. Tutor us are free for

(13:19):
you know, the kids who were struggling a bit, not
really engaging with school. And she, you know, she had
gone to UNI and she had this this you know,
flash job, and it was like it was kind of multifaceted.
Like it was really impactful for me because it, you know,

(13:40):
I was exposed to someone who had gone to university,
gotten a job, was still working. You know. That was
pretty pretty rare in my family. Well for a bunch
of reasons, but mostly just you know, when you're struggling
with multiple disabilities, it's just not viable. The workforce is

(14:02):
just not accessible for you. And so, you know, I'd
never really seen examples of that before, so being exposed
to this deadly, deadly Annie and for her to help,
just out of the kindness of her heart, you know,
I wanted to do her so proud. And she would

(14:23):
come and she would would play these little mass games
and you know, would be giggling and I'd be laughing,
and I'd get one wrong and she would, you know,
make fun of it, and you know, it just turned
it into this really instead of being like shamed for
not knowing anything, you know, she just made it this
like an opportunity to learn this fun thing that i'dn't

(14:47):
really honestly never experienced before. And I know so many
kids out there have that same experience where school is
not fun, school is rough. School is you know, it
can be the most isolating an ostracizing thing when you know,

(15:08):
when your mom, when you're when you're poor, when you know,
for me, I was always the scabby kid, always the
stinky kid like all of these things, right, but she
just really yeah, turned mass into this really fun, enjoyable
thing for me. So I think that was definitely the

(15:30):
biggest impact. And she taught me a lot. She taught
me that I don't need to depend on school to learn,
and and that's something that has that that was honestly
a gift that just keeps giving up until now. So
like I'm doing my PhD, I spend all of my time,

(15:52):
you know, learning on my own. It's it's completely self driven.
And and that was something that she taught me how
to do. But when when science, you know, I didn't
go into science initially, I always wanted to go to UNI,
you know, as I said, I wanted to get my mom,
get my mom the house. So I didn't go into

(16:16):
science initially. I went into I went into arts. I
was really into ancient history, and so I went into
ancient history and did a few different things. Did some sociology,
did some religion, some philosophy. Just was kind of all
over the place, and I just kind of stumbled across physics.

(16:36):
I I was learning about the multiverse. I was reading
a book by Stephen Hawking for a philosophy course. And
I just you know, it was the first time I'd
ever really been exposed to physics. I was not someone
who had access to you know, science or anythink at
school that was you know that I was legitimately told

(17:00):
that physics was for boys at high school. So like,
I just it wasn't even a thing in my mind.
I was just like, that's not for me. But then
when I read this book, I was like, what, this
is the most interesting thing I've ever learned, Like why
have I not known about this before now? And then

(17:22):
I was just so like just captured by it, like
I just yeah, became I just fell in love, to
be honest, and was just like I want to do this,
like if I could do anything. And I already felt
like I was living the dream, right. I got into
UNI like no one in my family had had been

(17:45):
them before or experienced it before. So it was like,
all right, I have this opportunity. I'm going to make
the most of it, and I'm going to do something
that excites me and interests me and that I want
to do. And so yeah, that was it. I just transferred.
Well and then you know what followed was years and

(18:09):
years and years of a lot of hard work and
a lot of learning, and a lot of picking myself
back up. And I think that, you know, I don't
really have any amazing skills or anything like that. I'm
not particularly bright or anything like that. But my skill

(18:31):
set is picking being able to pick myself back up.
That's that's what it's kind of gotten me here. So
I think, yeah, that's that's what I have to thank
to be honest.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
Wow, gosh, just taking that in, you know, having a
majoring in being able to yeah, push through the adversity
and all of the things. Wow, it's so so powerful.
And I guess I just wonder whether that Annie girl
knows how her guidance and you know, her ability to

(19:05):
teach and inspire would have known, like if she could
even conceptualize into the future, that that would have led
to you going on this path. And and like you say,
I think the beautiful realization that you know, a degree
or the the qualification doesn't necessarily make you. It doesn't

(19:26):
make or break you, but it will help you. But
what's going on inside here is always the fundamentally most
important part of the journey of the learning of self
and and and the struggle. Like it's like you say,
it's special to hear that that role that that Arni
played in inspiring you and making mauth is fun. Like, yeah, ways,

(19:51):
I love that a legend.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
People people study for years to learn that to be
able to do that and still fail. Like, but I
I think the biggest thing that Annie had was that
she believed in us, right. She believed in not you know,
not necessarily like our potential or whatever. It wasn't that

(20:15):
she believed in our worth. She saw us as worthy
to have access to these things, to have access to
the world. Right when you grow up extremely poor in
a place like Cold Ol, you don't have many options
and you have very you know, you have people that

(20:39):
just inherently hate you. Your teachers, your peers, they just
because because of all those things, right, because you are different,
because you're poor, because you know, they you're everything that
they fear to become themselves. And yeah, so I think

(21:00):
you know, it was it was really our usability to
be to see us as as as people and worthy
of love.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
M Wow, so truly special. And you know, I think
with that, it's just a reminder of our oldest teachers
on earth and which are our elders, you know, and yeah,
that we all are worthy and you're right, like you know,
when you there's this sort of nexus to with class

(21:31):
and race that we do internalize that sense of belonging
and that sense of inadequacy. We have to do double
the work with less the resources, and you know, we're
in chronically unsafe environments and we're met with, you know,
this unwavering sort of disdain that we don't belong and

(21:53):
so you know, I just want to say, yeah, I'm
so enamored and with the ability to just keep going.
Like you say, there's so many times, I mean, my
research or my work nowhere near extensive, where I've thought
of giving up halfway and just thought is this, you know,
could I just go work in a coffee shop and
just deal with you know, the mundane and whether I

(22:15):
would feel fulfilled? And it's such a heart led space
when you're pouring into this work, especially the work you're doing.
So I appreciate learning more about you, my Cisio. It's
beautiful to hear your personal story, and I just know
that would resonate with a lot of people to who
have the world on their shoulders. When we get out
of poverty and the struggle too. You know, it's such

(22:37):
a it's such a nuance like spectrum conversation.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
Hey, I guess, you know, for the lay people like
myself or just people who don't know, could we maybe
unpack these you know, we might have a very superficial view.

Speaker 1 (22:53):
I think some of us know astronomy from you know,
Instagram titles and things. But you know, I want to
unpack you for those who might not know, what is
an astronomer and an astrophysicist, Like what are some of
the types of things that you have done or do
in these fields of work? And then I want to

(23:14):
overlay it with what's an aboriginal astronomers an aboriginal astrophysicist too?

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Of course, okayy, this is a fun question. So I
guess you know, for a long time, just just by
merit of how you know how the Western system works,
you spend a hell of a lot of time just learning.
You're just learning and learning and learning and taking it
all in for years and years and years. And you know,

(23:41):
I've been at UNI since I was nineteen, so, you know,
fifteen years that UNI, and I'm only now really getting
hands on experience with being an astronomer. So for me,
what that looks like is I spend a lot of
time looking at data and you know, I think I

(24:05):
think it's pretty safe to say that we have some
of the most beautiful data sets in the world or
in the universe. And you know, we're really lucky that
we we're looking at just these incredible objects. And you know,
lots of different people look at lots of different things.
There's a lot of different objects out there that you

(24:26):
could be studying and researching. For me, I'm particularly interested
in the Milky Way galaxy, which is our home galaxy.
It's where we live, and for me, that just felt
really cozy. It's like I'm not going too far away
from home. And I'm particularly interested in the fuel of
the galaxy, what fuels the galaxy to keep going. So,

(24:51):
you know, galaxies can run out of fuel and then
once that happens, they stop creating stars. So galaxies are
like these star making mission that's their their function. And
of course we know that, you know, once a star
is born, planets are also born around that star, and

(25:14):
so you know, this is where all of life is.
It's within these star systems and these rocky planets that
revolve around you know, stars, like our Sun. Maybe they
existing in other forms, but that's the only one that
we know of so far. And so yeah, I'm really
interested in how do the galaxies keep going, how do

(25:36):
they continue to make stars? You know, we know everything
is finite. That's true in astronomy, just as it's true
here on Earth. And so I use radio observations to
do this. Radio observations it's like putting on a very
special type of glasses and seeing light that we wouldn't

(26:01):
normally be able to see with just our human eye,
and so we get a really really different, but really
beautiful view of the universe. And so I use radio
telescopes like the one in Parks. So there's a really large, incredible,

(26:21):
world class telescope in Parks. Could marry young And yeah,
I get to take pictures of these little pockets of
gas that could potentially go on to create new stars
one day, and I try and understand how they move
around the galaxy. And so that's really where that physics

(26:43):
term comes in when you hear astrophysicists. My role is
really to understand the physics of how these little gas
pockets survive, which we call them clouds, how they move
around the galaxy, how the galaxy moves as a whole.
So that's kind of my job. I get to look
at these beautiful images of these beautiful space cloud and

(27:05):
I also get to use because you know, we don't
Astronomy is a very difficult science, not just because everything
is so far away, but because we can't replicate anything.
Right as a chemist or a biologist, you can kind
of create experiments, but we don't have that privilege. We

(27:25):
can't create you know, another universe. So you know what
we do is we use computers. We use supercomputers to
do that and to literally generate galaxies or universes and
to try and understand you know, the physics that way

(27:46):
and run different experiments and try and gain some insight
from that. So I'm in a really really special place.
I get to combine both you know, the reality the
observations with the simulations, which are really you know, our
best estimate or estimate of what this scenario is or

(28:09):
our best attempt at being able to describe the galaxy.
So yeah, I've been really lucky. I mean, I would
to pick up these two very useful skill sets, and
I think that's you know, it's a bit daunting, but
I think you know, as yeah, as you were saying before,

(28:29):
you know, you kind of do crave the mundane when
things get really hard. But I often think to myself, like, oh, this,
like silly little computer simulation is knowing me as scary
or as difficult as all the crap that I've dragged
myself through before. So yeah, I definitely don't take it

(28:49):
too seriously and try to see it as you know,
it's kind of play. It's kind of fun for me,
and I love it. You know. I'm so lucky to
be able to be there and to be able to
look at these things and study these things. And it's
in a way it's kind of a gift that I've
given to myself. It's like, you know, I I was

(29:13):
kind of selfish in a way. I was like, I
chose something that was just so beautiful and so wonderful
and I will never feel guilty about it, and I'll
never regret that choice no matter how hard it gets.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
Yeah, I think that's the thing, right, Any job or
passion that brings us too closer to a state of
wonder and awe and curiosity is a beautiful thing. I
mean to be self actualizing. My mind is just blown.

(29:46):
I mean, it's so amazing to hear that. So you
are literally studying what fuels the galaxy, which fuels all
of us. I mean from an existential perspective, I don't
know how you would zone in from the galaxy to
grassroots to all things. You know, it would be real challenge.

(30:08):
But that is sounds so cool to be able to
observe these incredible phenomenas and what makes more stars. That's
just incredible. Will be back you, Lob right after his
short break.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
I kind of find it as as something that you know,
as I said, it's kind of a gift I've given
to myself. You know, as blackfellows, we don't really you know,
some of us threw and but just from how I
was brought up and you know, coming up as a Milleroy,
you know, and having the deadly olders that we have

(31:01):
and the staunch olders that we have, you know, we
have to deal with so much, so much crowd, so
much is so much harm that's done to us as people,
that's done to us as you know, done to our countries,
and you know we feel it across nations. You know,

(31:23):
it's not you see another nation, you know, dealing with
with the colony, and and you know exactly how that feels,
and you can't you can't not feel it. And so
you know, having having my day job as a place
where I can kind of not have to deal with

(31:49):
that all the time. And you know, I know people
people need that and they need to be in that
space all the time. But I just knew for me,
I couldn't. It's something that I will always deal with
and I will I will am to literally give it
all the energy I can when I can. But I
knew that I also needed this place where where you know,

(32:12):
I felt safe and yeah, I could just kind of
think about something beautiful.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, just switch off to the stars and the moon quietly. Yeah,
you know, not like I feel you since and I can.
I think that's a really brave and beautiful thing to say,
is that, you know, for black fives, we don't have
the ability to turn off from what we're experiencing collectively.
And so, you know, I don't think that there's anything

(32:42):
controversial at all about or radical about having chosen or
having that knowing within ourselves when we need to find
our own crafts and passions, we can then pouring. It
kind of makes us more expansive to pouring when we
when we do. And so I think that that's a
it's a beautiful knowing. And gosh, I would love to

(33:05):
zoom out and look at the galaxy every now and
then instead of you know, trying to think about you know,
decolonizing well being and mental health strategy. So wow, that's
so so special, I mean with that in mindsets. You know,
you've co authored a book Sky Country, which really explored,
I guess, the connections between Aboriginal environmental and cultural practices,

(33:29):
and through some of your work, you know, you have
reaffirmed some Indigenous knowledges and one of the particular findings
that I read was around the moon Halo. I'm wondering
if you could talk about, you know, yeah, what it's
like being an Indigenous scientist in this space. You know,
I'd love just sort of talk a little bit around
the indigenous work you've done in especially you know, that

(33:52):
finding and other things in the book. But then also
you know how you did navigate it as a black
follower in a very white space.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
So yeah, it's really funny like the Aboriginal astronomy space
traditionally and I use that term traditionally in a very
modern sense. You know, in the past one hundred years
or so has been entirely led by non Indigenous people.

(34:23):
And you know, it's only until very recently, in the
past thirty years or so, that MOB have kind of
been able to take up a bit of space there.
And there's a lot of reasons, and you know, a
lot of you know, a lot of progress was made

(34:46):
in that field to allow us to do that, right,
Like I don't want to, you know, I think we
kind of forget the fact that it wasn't that long
ago that we weren't considered human. You know, when my
mum was born, she was not considered human. And you know,

(35:08):
I'm not even going to go into the horrors that
my grandma experienced as a little girl. But you know,
it's it's only been very recently that you know, despite
mob's knowledge in astronomy being so well recorded and documented,

(35:28):
it's still only very recently that that has been accepted
and believed to be honest. And so it's a really
interesting field. You know, if I could define Aboriginal astronomy,
which you know, myself and Tea christ Or do in

(35:52):
the book, or we attempt to anyway. Is it's kind
of there's kind of three different ways that indigenous astronomy
or abriginal astronomy kind of sits. So there's the there's
the knowledge, the astronomical knowledge that that mob have and
hold and know and practice and share day in day out.

(36:16):
There knowledge that goes into so many of our traditions,
our culture, our ways of living and existing and knowing
each other and relating to each other and relating to
other kin and to totems and you know, all everything.
It touches everything. It was such you know, traditional life, living,

(36:42):
living with mob, living you know, on country and alongside
our totems. It was so important to know the sky,
to know the stars and the planets and the cycles.
So there's that. Another definition I would give it is

(37:07):
the knowledge that has been documented and interpreted and reinterpreted
by early settlers, explorers, more recently academics and scholars, all
entirely non indigenous peoples. And so that's a really separate

(37:30):
body of knowledge. And I by no means wish to
at all disrespect that or put any taint or shame
on that. But it's purely like I think it's really
important that we do acknowledge. These are very separate systems.

(37:51):
I think one of the biggest difference that I've really
come to appreciate is that when we have the knowledge
that has been interpreted and reinterpreted, it really sits extracted
from a lot of other connected knowledges that you know,
when when there you know, this knowledge sits within its

(38:15):
its context, it sits within its stories and its song lines,
and it's it's ceremonies, and it's you know, it's it's traditions.
It's not just astronomy. It's so many different things that
are overlaid and interconnected. But when we you know, document
this knowledge, or you know, when it has been documented,

(38:38):
it's because of how the Western system education system is,
everything is you know, extracted and complementalized. And so we
have this astronomical knowledge that is traditional knowledge, but it's
been changed, it's been extracted in a way. So there's
that body of knowledge. And then the third body of

(39:01):
knowledge that I would mention is very much the intersection
between the two. And that's very much an emerging space.
And I think the fact that universities are becoming a
bit more able to engage with community and as community

(39:23):
are somewhat more willing to engage with these institutions. That
body of knowledge. You know, I actually see so much
hope and so much, like I guess, potential in that
body of knowledge. You know, these two systems coming together

(39:45):
and working together because you know, we we just have
so much wisdom in our cultures, in our you know,
the stories that have been handed down to us, and
our perceptions, how we see things and how we you
you know, the cosmos and our connectedness to it. And

(40:08):
so that's that's kind of la an emerging space. I
kind of view it it and you know, I can
only hope that it continues to emerge and to grow
into flourish, and you know, hopefully we can we can
learn and listen together and with each other and from
each other. But as for you know, my experience coming

(40:32):
up in this, it's been really interesting. It's been really
eye opening. You know, I was very much flung into
this space. It's it's really funny when you are a
black feller and you're in a space that you're you know,
people people aren't used to you being there, or used

(40:54):
to having black fellows in that space, and they do
try to put you in that Black Fellow space. Like
you know, it has been a little bit of a
challenge for me to be viewed as a scientist and
not not just the Aboriginal woman who just happens to

(41:19):
be in this space for one reason or another. And
and it's it's been interesting because you know, I have
cause bring my culture and and my community with me
in whatever space I'm in. But it has been, yeah,

(41:40):
quite interesting that I was there was this kind of
attempt to see me as you know, pushed me down
this pathway where I was. I wasn't doing you know,
the Western science, but I was more doing doing the
Blackfellow science, which I still do and will always do. Right,

(42:05):
that's not something that you you can just not be
engaged in and participating. You when you are a Blackfellow.
You know, that's how it goes. And it's an honor
to have access to these youngs. But at the same time,
you know that's I have this whole other training and

(42:27):
skill set and profession that I've been honing and working
on fifteen years now. So yeah, look, it's been interesting
being flung into that kind of space quite young and
quite naive, was quite turbulent to be honest, there were
lots of ups and down. So many ups though, like

(42:51):
so many opportunities and people really cheering you on, and really,
you know, I think we've kind of there was this
moment where this type of knowledge and this type of
acceptance of you know, mob's cleverness, it just really launched off,
like it just really picked up, and you know, people

(43:15):
are just more and more interested in, you know, the
clever ways in which our old people existed and lived
and you know, all their teachings. So yeah, it's it's
honestly such a I'm I'm really lucky. I'm really blessed,
and I feel like we're all really lucky to be

(43:37):
able to learn the things that we now kind of
have more access to.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
It's still obviously something we need to work on for
all of our mobs, and I definitely know that some
of us are the anomalies in our families, which is
not shouldn't be the norm, but you know, it's also
one of those things that I remind myself that there
are doors and spaces that are open for me that
it would never open for my mum or my nan
as well, and that we should be like I know

(44:04):
that we have a lot of work ahead of us,
especially our generation. I'm the same age as you. I
feel like we're in between this sort of like space,
and so you know, we have to use the responsibility
wisely that we get with this. It's not just for
for hours. It's so counter to the Western hyperviitualized. I'll
go get a degree, and you know, we have to

(44:25):
continually pour back. And so I want to touch on
a few things you've said, which there's so much and
you know, even to the listeners, you know, just to
go back and really take on board the delicate, rich
nuance of some of the things you said around the
aboriginal astronomy. But I want to just stay with your
personal experience first, because I always like to stay with self.

(44:46):
But it's almost like this is why I love having
these young with black fellows here and in my life,
because we have this such complicated path sometimes around you know,
you've been learning for fifteen years. It's like you have
to go out and learn and learn and then basically unlearn, unravel,

(45:07):
unbecome undo, and then recreate based off you know, the
knowledge that you learn in community or you know, and
so it's such a process that is you know, when
we learn a science and so you know, thinking about
what you said before around the three areas of the
book and science generally, which is you know this indigenous

(45:28):
knowledge is and you know you think about it. You know,
blackfellows are the older scientists in the world if you
think about and I'm a I'm not a scientist, but
I'm social scientist. But nah, but you know, like science
in its basics sort of as I understand it is
a theory which can be proven or disproven. And so
you know, if you think about mob who have studied,

(45:50):
you know, observed, watched, archived, and then so much so
they can predict future events and algorithms. I mean, we
we are the older scientist and the relationship between guy
people country and living and thriving is as long as millennia, right,

(46:10):
And so it's interesting to hear that, you know, without
when we look at science within our context, within our law,
and within our frameworks, that it's so counter to what
modern science is about, which you say, is that second layer,
which is around extracting discovery, its opposed to taking like

(46:35):
community and cultural rigor over scientific rigor as well. And
so it's just so fascinating to hear that. You know,
we still even though we have credentials and knowledge, we
still have to continually prove that our science is a
science and that we're not some pseudoscience sort of you know,

(46:56):
this is proven. Are you seeing a change in how
people are, Yeah, incorporating and understanding indigenous knowledges to the
extent in which you know, it's making some impact. I mean,
I loved the third element of the research which you said,
which was this integrated approach. But yeah, you're seeing people

(47:18):
take our science more seriously. In short.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, look, I think I think it comes hand in hand.
We're taking us more seriously rights as sovereign people, as
land owners, as coming from the land, and being country. Right.
We are representatives off country. We are a part of country.

(47:45):
We don't live and work on country. We are country.
And so I definitely see that being taken more seriously
and our rights and as a result, you know, the
people listen and people are way more willing to listen.

(48:05):
You know, one of the first things I learned going
to school. So I went to an Aboriginal pre school
based in hold out the best, the absolute best, and
you know, all my cousins were there and like you know,
an uncle would come and pick me up and drop
me off each day, like it was beautiful, beautiful memories.

(48:27):
And then when I went into a mainstream primary school,
one of the first things I learned about Aboriginal people
was that they couldn't do maths. And so, you know,
this is in the nineties, mid nineties, and so I
think like as a as a nation, as as you know,

(48:51):
as Australia, we have absolutely come very very far in
honoring and respecting our old people, our communities, our nations,
and their cultures and traditions. And with that, of course,
you know, comes the things that we want to talk

(49:12):
about and that we we're proud of. And so for me,
of course, that's astronomy. You know, I'm so proud of that,
and I'm so proud to be Aboriginal, of course, and
to really be able to, you know, promote and celebrate
how clever our old people are. And so, you know,

(49:33):
I think it's it's not just it's not just the sciences.
I think, you know, for a long time, I think
we've been pretty acknowledged and respected in certain spaces like
environmental sciences. I think I think we've been acknowledged therefore
for quite a while now. But I think, you know,

(49:58):
it's just we're just being noticed in all these areas
that we've just excelled, and you know, our cultures excel
at and our knowledge systems you know, lends itself to
and so you know, absolutely in astronomy, but I think
more broadly just as as people and also seeing you know,

(50:21):
I think it's kind of an interesting it's a very
interesting time obviously for many many reasons. But I think, like,
you know, we're kind of seeing the cracks in Western
civilization and this myth that has been sold for hundreds

(50:41):
of years now about you know, civilized society and non
civilized you know, the savages or whatever, and how it's
just so unbelievably inaccurate. And it's so it's so much
easier to see now because we have all these failing systems.

(51:02):
They don't just or mob anymore. They fail everyone, right,
We're all struggling out here, and and you know country
feels that more than anyone. Yeah, And so I think
combining that, you know, having having it made really obvious

(51:23):
and really clear that you know, this lie of civility
and to be completely honest, Western and white supremacy sold
to us for so long now and forced down our throat.
It's like it's just unbelievable, Like no one can believe
it anymore. You know, it's just it's it's just a

(51:47):
farce obviously, you know, not to get to.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Two activisty, I'm for it. I'm always young.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Yeah, And so you know, combining that with you know,
MOB over here being like, well yeah, obviously, like you know,
we've been trying to trying to point this out and
tell you for years that you know this, this is
this ain't right. This is not how things have to
be right. We have all these systems that are tried

(52:24):
and tested. We know that they work because we're still here, Mob,
are still here, and so you know, I think I
think it's a really important time for indigenous people, for
knowledge holders, for people who who can connect to the

(52:47):
land and see themselves as land and a part of it.
You know, I think it's a really really important time,
and I think we all have our little part to
play in that. You know, I find myself in in
this is me area, and you know, I try to
wave that flag so much and so hard, you know,

(53:10):
and you know, really push the ways in which that
particular industry can learn and benefit and listen. And you know,
I think it's particularly important for US indigenous astronomers at
the moment, and because there's lots of us now, which
is incredible for us to really be talking about the

(53:33):
space industry and talking about the ways in which that's progressing,
because we've seen it happen before, We've seen you know,
there's all these all these hints that are pushing us
down a particular path with the space industry, and I

(53:54):
think we really need to step up and put our
hand up and say, hold on, this is not right,
this is not feeling right, and we need to stop
this before. We kind of need to reframe ourselves here
and reframe our positioning within within space, within you know,
the universe, just like we need to do here on Earth.

(54:17):
And you know, I think I think everyone has has
their little piece to play wherever you are. You know. Unfortunately,
fortunately and unfortunately, you know, I was brought up to
to speak up. And you know, I'm really privileged and
really lucky to have that, and I need to practice that.

(54:39):
That's that's kind of you know, my responsibility. It's it's
to speak up for country and not just my country,
for for all country.

Speaker 1 (54:52):
Well gosh, and I mean, I imagine that that responsibility
to country transcends you know, all of what it is
you you're you're doing, And there's just so much to
what you said there. I mean, I could, I mean
to reimagine our societies, to reimagine our world, and to
realize that we are all inherently connected. And you're right,

(55:12):
you know, we're seeing the world fall and unravel with
the harms of neoliberalism, industrial capitalism, colonialism, patriarchy. You know,
we were seeing it. And this is what I truly believe,
and I've said it on the show and I'll say
it again, but this is why Similarly, I truly believe

(55:33):
that sentiment, like you say, is that you know, indigenous
and other knowledges are good for everyone and can offer
us the framework and that knowing and that it has
been tested. And it's just sort of like you know,
we've in a couple of things that you said which
I can't even begin to paraphrase it because it was

(55:53):
that deadly. But you know, I think the distinction between
Indigenous knowledge and Western knowledge is this, It's such a
small difference between I am in nature or I am nature,
or I am country, I am you know on country
or you know it's it's it's that it's knowing that

(56:14):
we are coming from the earth, our mother, our father's
s Guy is our oldest textbook. It's the it's the
knowing of such, and it's not there's no benevolence or
having to prove as such. It's a and it's also
that knowledge is shared collectively with that responsibility. And so yeah,

(56:36):
and there was another thing you said before, and you said,
you know that like middle lows and stuff are sort
of starting to jerry that about cleverness. And I think
that's a lot of it too, that there is a
racial undertone with a lot of this, And like Barker
even says that, to quote her, she says, you know,
the power about the power of our blackness. It's almost
like they don't. They've wanted to keep us on the

(56:57):
sugarcane farms, they've wanted to keep us in the plantations,
they've wanted us to do these things. They want us
to be dumb. So because of the power of our blackness,
of our knowledge system, that has been so sustainable. And
I think you're right, we're at this huge reckoning and
impasse right now. We have been and we continue to

(57:17):
see you think that you can't see any more horrors,
and you continue to be, you know, bearing witness. But
it's like, you know, now is the time where people
are thinking about the relationships of yeah, colonization and neoliberalism
and white supremacy and the harms it has, and so
you know, I think it's you know, not to pathologize

(57:39):
or even paternalize or in any way, but why it's
so important we need people like you and other black people, women,
queer folk, you know, just people in these spaces doing
this hard work. But I know that it comes at
such a cost to our lupe and our spirit as
along the way as well. So yeah, you know, I

(58:01):
think it's really important that we have First Nations people
at the helm of these conversations around First Nations justice
and what we're experiencing right now. But I know it's
such a hum burden.

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Sorry, I was just going to say, I think we
play such an important role, and I totally understand it.
It is a huge burden. It can be so so
much someday, so overwhelming. But I think the thing that
we really offer is hope, right, we offer a completely
different paradigm that you know, sadly, a lot of people

(58:38):
haven't been able to to imagine. They haven't been able
to imagine anything outside of capitalism, anything outside of white supremacy.
And you know, I use the term white supremacy a
lot because so much of our society is so entrenched
in it. And I don't believe that we were necessarily

(59:02):
you know, people who perpetuate white supremacy are doing it
from a place of you know, malice and hate. I
think it's just that it's all that they've ever been
exposed to, it's all they've ever known. And we're so
lucky that we get to draw on literally the oldest

(59:28):
culture known to human history, and we get to reimagine
our prison and our future. And for that, you know,
we're here to be storytellers. It's literally our duty. It's
our duty to our old people, to our country, to

(59:49):
tell those stories of country, to tell those stories of
our old people. And I think that, you know, that's
the most important thing we can offer. We can offer
people a little bit of hope, maybe that you know,
there are other ways that we can coexist with each other,
with country, with Kim with animals, with everything. It doesn't

(01:00:11):
have to be this way.

Speaker 1 (01:00:13):
I love it. Ah, I'm just I'm just taking this
all in because you're right, it is an internalized it's
internalized capitalism, internalized colonialism, internalized white supremacy. And I guess,
you know, with that hope to be able to reimagine,
it's also like it's a reimagining, and I guess from

(01:00:35):
my perspective, it's also a returning back to because we've
all got this proximity to whiteness and we're all trying
to kind of understand our own colonial mindsets and how
they manifest in our work and ourselves. And so I

(01:00:56):
think a lot of the work in this is also
reminding or being reminded of the we've always had this
and we can return back to it's accessible to us,
and that it's not gone. It might be sleeping, but
it's there for us when we're in that place to

(01:01:16):
return back there. Yeah, and that's a beautiful knowing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
We've been having a lot of talks in our workforce
and with a lot of yards that have been having
down in Victoria around treaty, around just the because we've
been positioned as a problem to be solved and a
deficit for so long that sometimes along the ways we
also underestimate the power of our blackness, and we also

(01:01:45):
underestimate our own frameworks. Well, you can see why I
wanted to sit down with this individual. It's been a blessing, Karli,
to have you on the show, to learn yeah about
you and the work you're doing to understand our galaxy,
which still give me like all the feels thinking about

(01:02:06):
but also you know, just hearing about your really gentle
honesty about you know, how to make this world a
bit of a better and blacker place. So thank you
so much for being here today and sharing all of
your wonderful knowledges with us. We're so grateful.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21):
It's absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much for holding
this space. Hey, Like, it's not often that you know,
we get to go into these topics to this level
and be dishonest and you know, yan about the things
that were most passionate about and do it in a

(01:02:43):
really truthful way. So thank you. Thanks for all your
work and you know you being.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
You, Oh, bless you, Sez. Thank you, that's so beautiful.
I really appreciate that we will put all of your details, Instagram,
social media handles in our show notes so people can
follow along them can follow along with your PhD and
all of the wonderful things you're doing. So thank you

(01:03:10):
so much again, my sister for being here on the
show Yearning Up. Thank you, thank you, thank you so
much for listening to you mob. If you are vibing
this season of Yearning Up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us

(01:03:30):
some love, rate and review. Alternatively, you can get in
contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot
Caroline Coow dot com dot au