In this episode, Caroline is joined by Naomi Moran, CEO of the National Indigenous Newspaper, the Koori Mail. Naomi is a proud Bundjalung and Djangadi woman. Generations of her family have lived on Cabbage Tree Island in Yangaboar country, and she also has strong roots in Kempsey country. She started her career in black media, where at the age of 14 she made the decision to leave school and begin a traineeship at the Koori Mail in 1988. Fast Forward to now, she’s the CEO of this media outlet, which is 100% Aboriginal owned and self-funded.
In this episode, Caroline and Naomi yarn about the importance of black media in telling the stories of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, and how it’s vital in breaking the stigmas, bias and stereotypes that plague western media outlets. Naomi talks about balancing running a media company with motherhood, and how by educating her son about his heritage she’s helping to inspire the next generation to tell the stories of their people.
To keep up to date with all the deadly work the Koori Mail is doing , make sure to follow them on social media:
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and don’t forget to follow the show!
Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline here!
We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was taped. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past, present and emerging.
This podcast was brought to you by On Track Studio.
For advertising opportunities please email hello@ontrackstudio.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Welcome to Yanni Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations
stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
(00:25):
proud barber woman and founder of Black Waddel Coaching and Consulting,
Caroline cow. We acknowledge the Runderi people and elders where
this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands
that you are listening in from today. It always was
and always will be unseated aboriginal and tourist Red Islander Land. Well,
(00:54):
I'm so grateful to have this cis on today. I
had the pleasure of meeting sis Naomi at a retreat
for the Corey mail that was had up on Ynabarrah
Country last year, and I must admit I just totally
fan girl, do you from Afar? But then I got
the opportunity to meet in the flesh and I was
(01:16):
just blown away by the love that you have for
your family, the love that you have for your community,
the way you show up for your team, just the
woman that you are and becoming. And I was like,
I have got to have you on yarning up, So
thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you for having me. And I know it's taken
a while for me to get here, you know, between
both of our busy schedules of course, but I'm really
grateful for the opportunity to just yearn and definitely catch
up after that incredible few days with that retreat for
our team. So it's really lovely to be in your
company again today.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Thank you, Oh, thank you, my sis. I mean, we're
going to get to unpack what Naomi does at the
Corey Mail and leading such an amazing archive new just
truth telling, honoring stories, honoring our mob. But I want
to start with, you know, getting to know usis. So
I'm wondering if you could just start by introducing yourself,
(02:11):
tell us about your mob, and yeah, a little bit
about yourself, Yeah deadly.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And I love this part because the opportunity to share
where I'm from. I think everybody you know has that connection,
strong connection to country and mob, and it's really special
to tell those stories as part of who we are.
And I'm proudly bunge Lung and dung Guddy my family
from Cobbage Tree Island, which is Yangaboo Country or nine
(02:36):
Ball Country as some people say. My mother grew up
on the island, and generations of my family members grew
up on Cobage Tree Island and occupied those lands. I
also have strong bloodline connections to the Dungutty nations, so
Southwest Rock's there on the mid north coast of New
South Wales, down km Country, kem See Country. So really
proud of those connections and really proud that that's my identity.
(03:00):
I identify as a bunch of lung Dungutty woman. That's
all I know. I only grew up with my mother's family.
I only grew up with my mother. My father was
absent growing up. He's a white fellow, but obviously didn't
have those connections and that relationship with him. So all
I know how to be is a black woman. And certainly,
(03:21):
if not feel completely indebted to my mob, my family,
and my community for the person that I've become today.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Thank you, Sis. It's so nice to kind of get
to know you. I guess because I imagine you're on
working in black media, You're always centering other people and
their story, so it's actually so lovely to get to
learn a bit more about you and where you're from
and what makes you you. I can really resonate with
that too. My dad was similar. He's a mingaloo fuller
and he wasn't around either. And so actually, in the
(03:49):
most recent years since his passing, had been trying to
find out information about the white side of the family,
being like, where is this part of me from? And
so I can definitely resonate with all of the black
matriarchy and how lucky we are to have taken on
those legacies. I want to ask you, sis, you know
you are the what is the title managing director?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So I started out as the little receptionist of the
Career Mail back in You'll probably do your math and
figure out how old I am as with the world now.
But I was a fourteen year old girl fresh out
of dropping out of high school in grade ten and
took the opportunity to take up a traineeship with the
Career Mail in nineteen ninety eight, and long story short,
(04:34):
loved every moment of I guess taking the opportunity to
be educated in the ways that we learn as black fellers.
And that was that first hand experience, you know, being
guided by those around us and guided by country and
guided by storytelling and traveling to community and stayed at
the Cremail then for a period of ten years, So
(04:55):
from ninety eight to two thousand and eight did my
first stint with the Career Mail and Mis proudly based
here on Bungelung Country in Lismore. So it was nice
to have that early career journey here on country and
then return in twenty sixteen when I was offered to
come back as general manager by the board of directors.
I've come full circle but now lead in the position
(05:17):
of CEO, so we've got some really great things to
look forward to in the future. But yeah, it's definitely
been quite the journey, but extremely I guess grateful to
be working for an organization that's one hundred percent grounded
in community, an organization that self determines, you know, how
they operate, that's one hundred percent average and run one
(05:40):
hundred percent self funded and supported by a national community
that's invested in the truth telling of our people, our communities,
and invested in black media and trusting in black media
to guide and direct the narratives that we need people
to hear to really break down the narratives that have
done nothing to serve our people. So yeah, really special place.
(06:03):
And I do talk very fondly about working for the
care Mail and being part of this amazing team.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I mean, it's so special to hear that, and it's
like you were a part of the early formation of
this place and so to be the CEO and running
this place that is so grounded in community, being situated
with support by five traditional owners, being really rooted in community.
But to hear that you started out as a trainee
shit when you're fourteen, and the journey and evolution that
(06:31):
you would have gone on and where the Career Mail
is today.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I did all the jobs nobody wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right, Well, they say, that's how even to do it,
isn't it. You know, get in learn and that's.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
How we start, you know, don't be afraid to start
from the bottom, which is obviously something that I encourage
our young people you know today with my mentoring and support.
But you know, reflecting on those early days where I
was a big notor and thought that you know, I
didn't need school, and you know, mind you they were
real valid reasons why I wanted to quit school. But
you know, stepping into the workforce, and I just remember
(07:04):
the first day and being completely overwhelmed and you know,
wondering had I made that right decision, and also stepping
into an organization at the time that was led by
a non Indigenous manager, and you know, the workforce in
a regional country type community as well. And so this
young career kid, you know, just really trying to step up.
And when I reflect on that, you know those moments
(07:26):
where I was like, well, I should have just stayed
in school and doing the things that you know, those
little jobs that nobody wanted to do. But I always
speak about I guess in those moments it's like that
sink or swim, flight or flight. Like for me, it
was about opportunity and choice, and I speak about pairing
that with responsibility and accountability. So for me, even at
(07:46):
a young age, as fourteen fifteen year old girl, really
embedding those mentalities into myself based on what I was
seeing around me, with the incredible leadership and the trailblazers
of that time, not just in our sector, you know,
not just locally here on Bungelung, but nationally and going right,
This is why I turn up every day and this
(08:09):
is why I, you know, stay willing to learn because
I made that choice to big note myself and walk
out of school. But I took up an opportunity, an
incredible opportunity. But now I need to step into my
responsibility and accountability to make sure that I make the
most of every day and have not not had a
job since, So I think just really trying to keep
(08:32):
myself alive in that spirit and not lose that spirit.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Oh my god, there's so much that I could unpack
with that. But thank God that in a knowing or
intuition or just being able to sort of take action
in your life at a young age. I think sometimes
we are like conditioned or you know, our proximity to
whiteness tells us we have to do things in a
certain order, and sometimes we do know what we need.
And stepping into the workforce being willing to learn and
(08:58):
now continuing to share the legacy that is the Cury
Mail in this way is so incredible. I mean, for
those of our listeners who have been living under a rock.
I mean, most of our listeners are mob but we
do have a lot of international people listening to which
is pretty pretty deadly, you know. I wonder if you
could talk a little bit about the Curry Mail. So,
the Cury Mail is, as we discussed, it was established
(09:22):
in nineteen ninety one because there was really no media
sources for MOB. There was nothing in our shape for
nothing to sort of shape the public perception asides from
mainstream which is really deficit discourse based, and unlike other
news and media sources, which is a twenty four hour
news cycle, the Cury Mail is produced fortnightly and it
(09:44):
really does center the strengths of MOB. So I'm wondering
if you could maybe share with people, yeah, a little
bit around what is the Cury Mail, what it is
that you follows are doing, and how it is that Yeah,
you're shaping this legacy.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah, and I mean it's such a special story to tell,
and I'm really passionate about continuing to share the story
of the creemal, its beginnings, its structure, how it operates
as a successful black business for over thirty years now,
because I think it's really important that these stories of
(10:19):
how our businesses and organizations and the trailblazing of the
indigenous media sector, those stories about how our voices, you know,
came on the airwaves, how our voices are being printed
in those pages. Is so important to the ongoing opportunity
for people to stay informed and educated and really again
(10:41):
take that accountability and responsibility for themselves to stay connected
to blackfellows through black media. So the care Email began
with one man Owen Carriage, and I always make sure
that I acknowledge, you know and tribute the inception of
the cremail and the idea of the Cremil to Owen
carry and our local elders, in particular Pastor Frank Roberts,
(11:04):
a local Bungelung elder who at that time heard the
ideas you know, was willing to listen to the ideas
of Owen about creating a voice for our people in
printed form and that that would contribute to the already
existing legacy of black media in our nation and our country,
particularly broadcast media. And then naturally, as ideas come to fruition,
(11:27):
there's a great need to invest in support in this.
And so now the structure of the creemal which has
been for such a long time now for over two decades,
operating successfully now for over three decades, is that the
creemail is one hundred percent average or owned by five
organizations from Bungelung country. So at a time where that
(11:49):
idea needed support, it needed to grow, it needed to develop, it,
it needed to be that source of truth telling and
it needed to carry the voices of our people. The
local Bunjelung elders came together and they invested, they invested
into the idea that this was absolutely something needed, you know,
(12:09):
not just for our people, but for the wider Australian community.
And so we have five Aboriginal organizations that are now
equal shareholders of the cremail and these are bunge Lung
organizations from Lismore, Balana, Kurrakai Casino and McLain and so
their organizations to play a big role in the structure
and the operations of the Cremail as well. And what
(12:30):
that means is that the model it's not only about
one hundred percent Aboriginal ownership, it's not about being one
hundred percent Aboriginal run and self funded. But what that
means is that every profit of the care Mail continues
to go back into community. So it's this incredible example
of this black ecosystem, economical ecosystem that continues to keep
(12:52):
giving back to our community and so the model allows
us to support those five organizations to do their work
anythink from so housing to use programs, to supporting emotional
and mental health well being on Bungelun Country, to making
sure that we're looking after country. What they choose to
do with that support from the CREAMAL is so important
(13:13):
to those regions here on country. That story of the
CREAML is so important. And for those that know the
history of the care email is a newspaper, perhaps they
don't know what exactly it means for these communities on
Bungelun Country, and that comes with a lot of responsibility.
But the integrity too is really special. And the fact
(13:35):
that for over thirty years now, the integrity of the
cremail in terms of that cultural responsibility is really important
to how our people see themselves knowing that their voices
are being heard, or how these organizations are able to
continue to operate and be supported by the Creemal by
this business structure. It's really special and I think just
(13:58):
really privileged to continue to work in a space and
place that I'm surrounded by my mob every day, but
to keep inviting people in, whether it's our correspondence that
are around the nation, our columners, people who contribute and
write for us, whether it's here and there or consistently,
and our incredible staff, but also our readers. To be
(14:19):
able to work in an organization and then have that
you go out to our readers and make impacts in
how they see blackfellows, how they receive the indigenous perspective
is really special and important.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Honestly, just stopping for a moment to take all of
that in because everything that MOB do is so much
more than what it presents as it's like this multifaceted
business organization that has these roots to give back to
local communities. It's so much more than media. And I
guess being somebody external who is one of the one
(14:57):
hundred plus thousand people that gets the Corey mail, we
see the beauty and the richness and the strengths and
the survival of our people which is sort of projected
back to us as we know it. You know, I
think stories really are medicine for us because it is
how it shapes how we see the world, but how
we see ourselves. And so we get to experience this
(15:19):
beautiful press and podcast and other digital platforms that you
fellows are putting out. But then to know that there
is a direct revenue and money going back into local
communities is just so special, so so special.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It's also about that self empowerment and that self determination
and also making sure that we are paving the way
for our businesses and our organizations, our community groups, or
anybody that has an idea and wants to push for
that in that we can, even though we're operating in
these Western worlds of business, but we can maintain that
(15:57):
sovereignty and that self determination as businesses, that we can
determine what that looks like for us and our people
and our communities, and that you know, we don't have
to ask permission. And I think that's something that I
really value about the careemail, and I really value about
black businesses and organizations that operate in that way, is
that you know, we're done with asking permission. We're done
(16:19):
with that. And I think continuing to make sure that
we operate in that way, I think not only leads
an example, but obviously strengthens our ability to determine what's next,
What are the next chapters of the career mail, the
next pages, so to speak, of the career mail that
we step into. You know, different spaces and opportunities to
continue to be all that we can for community. But
(16:41):
what that comes back to is first and foremost at
the core of what we do, making sure that this
is absolutely about that self determination, that that empowerment, and
it is about making sure that we're holding on to
that sovereignty, you know, to go into the board meeting
with my board members and to put ideas on the
table and to not feel that automatically there's going to
(17:04):
be a resistance to that because this is more, but
this is community and these are my elders. And to
come in and know that I'm in that safety, in
that safe space, I think, in turn is quite empowering
for me to then step out of that into my
leadership even more knowing that I've got that backing and
that support of community and that no idea is a
(17:27):
bad idea. But what it means for me and my
leadership is that I feel confident and comfortable to lead
in that way and for it to be received in
a way where you know, I feel like we can
continue to do great things.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
You know, there's a couple of things that you touched
on there that I'd love to sort of just maybe
underscore or unpack a little bit, which is this notion
of yeah, not asking for permission or asking for crumbs,
or even just where are we aligning our interest in
our love and labor. And I think after the failed
referendum last year, yeah, I know, for me, it just
(18:02):
it kind of brought me back to this sense of, yeah,
we're not begging and pleading and appealing anymore. And like
you say, I think when you're operating from a framework
that's our oldest framework, which is aboriginal governance or cultural
rigor or being community led, then that's the framework that
(18:23):
we can all turn back to where we can do
great things together. And I think that's the one thing
that I think we should all be really focusing on, is, Yeah,
how do we apply cultural and community rigor over things
instead of trying to appeal to a framework or a
IGLOO way that has never really even been designed by us.
And so I just love that, Yeah, we're not asking
(18:43):
for permission anymore, but we're really trying to find new
ways to work together and make decisions and be accountable
to each other. And that's something else I want to
talk to you about, which I think that the CURI
mail does so well because you know, in terms of
the traditional media sense, you know, you might have a
two week cycle, and I think right now in the world,
(19:04):
there's never been I guess there's never been more of
an important time for truth telling and ethics in media,
because when we look at what we're seeing, what we
experienced last year with the rise of racism, the rise
of the right wing nationally, internationally, what we're seeing overseas,
how journalists just sort of diluting facts and mincing words
(19:27):
or just being dishonest entirely, I think that there's never
been a really more important time to make sure that
we honor the stories, especially of marginalized people. And I
think as things like technology continues to evolve and the
media landscape continues to change, there really should be an
importance on ethical journalism and that it should be more
(19:50):
pronounced because you know, it does shape public perception and understanding,
and ultimately, I think all media outlets should have a
commitment to truth and a ability and what you know,
we look to do, especially whenever we work with our
communities and telling a story, is to minimize harm and
strengthen the journalists and the media's role in telling and
(20:13):
honoring those stories in that way will be back you
mob right after this short break. What do you think
(20:34):
that mainstream media outlets can learn from places like the
coury mail in how to how to do that right,
how to really tell the truth in ways that are
doing good for society and that can set some ethical
standards for greater good instead of what we're seeing right now.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
And I often reflect on this, you know, because we
are in a national media landscape, even as an Indigenous
media organization and product as a newspaper, and so I
think about, first of all, we need to continue to
acknowledge that truth telling in the context of First Nations media,
(21:15):
whether you're a newspaper, broadcaster, television, content creator online, it
is truth telling, and that we need to acknowledge that
that is the core role and purpose that black media
plays because since colonization, all our people have tried to
have their voices be heard. And I think, you know,
(21:36):
obviously more recently is acknowledging just how much of a
role black media has played in carrying the voices of
Aboriginal Entrrostradnor people's and communities for such a long time.
But going back to acknowledging that the role we play
absolutely is connected to that truth telling because in that
national media landscape, we're the only ones that are doing it,
(21:58):
you know, mainstream we know contributes to how negatively the
Australian community see our people, hear our people, see our
communities and the issues that are directly affecting abajeonterres strata
on to people. And then I go back to the
first edition of the Kareemil, for example, came out in
(22:20):
May I think it was May May twenty three, and
the front page of that first edition, the leading headline
was racist violence, the Hidden Facts. So then I go right,
thirty years later, the Creemal is still telling the same stories,
still talking about the same issues. We're still trying to
drive the same agendas to make people wake up and
(22:43):
listen and read and hear the voices of our people.
And oftentimes, when I reflect on that, you know, I
get mad and I get angry, and I vow every
single day never to work for white media, because we
still have so much to do to change the narratives
in this nation on how people see our people and communities.
(23:06):
You know, those mentalities, you know, the ignorance is still there,
you know, and I get wild when people say Australia
is not a racist country. Will sit in a black
news room ten minutes and watch the stories come across
our desk and then sit around the table when we
have to put our staff into a trauma workshop so
(23:31):
that we can provide emotional and wellbeing support to our
journalists because of everything that they're seeing across their desk
on a daily basis, the desks and custody, the killings,
the protests, the children being taken away, the injustices, every
email that's opened, the stories that we're reading from communities
(23:55):
where we then have to take time to speak to
them about something that's happening to them. And while they
might not get a national profile or a national readership,
hundreds of thousands of stories of injustice that come across
our desks year in year round. Tell one Australian person
(24:15):
that thinks that racism and discrimination against blackfellows doesn't exist
in this country to step into our newsroom and see
how they feel when they walk out.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, I'm just taking that in because that's you know,
that's ironically where we met at the retreat. We were
talking about the trauma responses that Aboriginal and Torres Stoyland
or people of color, journalists and people in media who
are holding space for these stories what they experience. And
it is like this pervasive cost that the media bears
(24:45):
to do the justice that it's required to hold that space.
And because you MOB do work in this ethical way
when you're not flying into a community getting the story,
putting it up, not even fact checking it, or you know,
you're actually going in and developing relationships with these people,
you know, their families, their communities. You're trying to capture
(25:05):
the story in a strength based way, but then also
manage your wellbeing. And I think that that is a
really important sort of thing to know that this work
comes at a great cost to the mental, social, emotional wellbeing,
spiritual wellbeing, but it is still so equally important. And yeah,
I guess it's confronting to hear you say that the
(25:26):
first article headline is something that I know that you
MOB is still writing about. What keeps you going? What
keeps you going in this Where do you get your
fire from? Because yeah, some days would be so hard,
I imagine.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I guess my experience is obviously my story and different
to others. But you know, going back to the age
that I was when I first stepped into the Creer
mail office and really having that early introduction not only
into the workforce, but the early introduction into black media,
and that I'd grown up with amazing you know, family
(26:03):
members that were leaders in our community, you know, doing
really great and impactful work at a local level. You know,
my mum marched and protests in the seventies, she was
there at the embassies, and I remember asking her one
day kind of what had changed during that time for her,
and she had said, well, you know, I've marched all
(26:26):
the marches. Now I actually need to go and get
qualified and skilled to continue doing the work for my
people in other areas that I know will continue to
make change. And so she became a registered nurse, and
then she spent thirty years of her life dedicated to
working in mental health and domestic violence and child sexual
assault as a counselor and caseworker and did all the
(26:48):
things to protect our people, our families and our women,
you know, to make sure that they were safe and protected.
And so I always go back to that conversation with her,
though brief, but certainly impactful in that again reflecting on
will once my accountability and responsibility to my people, because
before this world knew that I was going to be
(27:08):
male or female, This world knew that I was going
to be Banjelung. This world I was going to be
done gutty, this world knew that I was going to
be an Aboriginal. So for me, that is the core
of everything I do, the foundations of every day. And
I'm not saying that I'll get up in the morning
and check myself in the mirror and remind myself every
day of my identity, but I need to do that.
It's in my feet, it's in my soul, it's everywhere.
(27:30):
But for me is really being grounded and connected in
my purpose and what I want to see for our
people and communities, and that that comes from those that
have come before me, And I think that's really kind
of shaped that dedication and commitment that I have to
the black media sector is that we must keep telling
(27:51):
the stories of our people. The ones that hit us hard,
the ones that torment us and are traumatic, and the
ones that will never leave us, you know, but the
ones that celebrate us, that acknowledge just how incredibly fierce
how people and communities are and just how empowering it
(28:11):
is to be a blackfellow, to be a First Nations
person of this country, and that at the end of
the day, nobody can tell me different. But bringing all
of that into your leadership role as well is really important,
especially for an organization like the Creemal that has a
national profile. Knowing that everything that I really try to do,
and we're still learning every day, we're learning, but everything
(28:33):
that I really tried to do is honoring those that
have come before me, Honoring those first board members that
sat around the table to support Owen to carry on
the legacy of the Cree Male, Honoring the leaders and
the trailblazers of black media for decades and decades that
have paved the way long before I was even thought
of their voices. And I feel like the really special
(28:57):
thing about black media is we will never switch off
from hearing the whispers of our ancestors through the work
that we do. We will never lose that it's there.
Those stories are there, and black media has played the
most important role in making sure that the next generations
hear those whispers too, and that the next generations can
(29:20):
hear and see and listen and feel those family members
and community members that they never got to meet. So
we're focusing on archiving. We're focusing on making sure that
those oral stories and histories are still there. And how
important that is and for black media to play that role.
I mean, I talk all day right, the most important
thing that black media does is really safeguard and protect
(29:44):
the stories of our people in a way that it
will continue to educate and give knowledge and celebrate and
transform hopefully the mentalities, the myths and the stigmas, the stereotypes.
Black media is more than just a radio station that
(30:05):
you tune into or a newspaper. And when you pick
up the cre email and you flick through those pages,
you know that sound like they're the whispers of the
ancestors and the stories. And I just think it's really
a really special sector to have been part of over
the years, for over twenty five years now, and I
(30:25):
know there's so many stories of those trailblazers that are
incredibly special and have certainly enabled me to learn from
and to listen and listen deeply, and that I certainly
couldn't be in the position that I am now without
those that have come before me. And just really feel
incredibly lucky that the history of black media has been
(30:47):
now part of my journey. You know, I guess for
me is making sure that I stay genuine in my
intent carry on that legacy.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
My cis, I don't think you've got a waiver from
you know, not being genuinely be because you can. You
can feel it, like you've got this beautiful energy and
you know I felt it when I met you, and
I'm feeling it right now. And you are out here
trying your best to honor what was and build on
(31:16):
what is and walk in a value based way, living
a purpose that, like you said, whether you chose it
or you know, whether the ancestors already had plans, you
know you're out here embodying this and so we are
so grateful for you and your labor and what you
provide for the community locally there but nationally across so
(31:37):
cold Australia. You're right, we are never going to be
able to switch off our ancestors whispers and these are
much more than news outlets. They're archives. And I could
speak to you all day about this, but I know
you've got little lad to go collect. He's probably not
so little now. How old is he on you.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
He'll be five in June. So I'm a mum. I've
got a beautiful little boy, Digby. He's just an incredible spirit.
Pinch myself every day, even on the day that he
torments me and I kind of he's got me grant
in my teeth. I go, well, you wanted that he
gave birth to a highly intelligent, highly emotionally connected and
grounded little human, so it's only natural that he debates
(32:16):
and negotiates and you know, keeps me on my toes. Yeah,
he's just started a transition programming preparation for primary school
next year. So it's not easy doing the work that
we do, and it's certainly not easy when you become
a mum and you have family and other commitments as well,
and other hats that you have in the media sector
as well. But we manage because we've seen it done
(32:38):
before by those that have come before us. And I
can't help but reflect on, you know, being raised in
a single parent family with my mum and just really
trying to break down and unpack what that looks like
for her so that I can then make sure that
I'm doing the best that I can. You know, sometimes
I don't know what I'm doing half the time, because
(32:59):
you know, it's parenthood. But I think for me, as
long as I'm raising a little man that's so grounded
in his identity and his connection to country, which is
so important for me to be able to raise him
here on bunge Lung, you know. And also my husband's Fijian,
so he's so grounded and connected in his Fiji and culture.
He speaks Fijian as a second language, spoken fluently at
(33:21):
home to him. You know, he's now speaking bunge Lung.
The other day he forgot the English word for your ears.
And it's just funny that you know, this little human
is taking all of this in from the beginning. He
was written off by the doctor, just like I was.
I think about that relationship between me and my son
and when I was born. I was born with congenital
heart defects and my incubator in the hospital had a
(33:44):
label on it called failure to thrive. So basically they
are watching for me to know thrive or to fail.
They called me a blue baby. I'd stop breathing all
the time. I had a lot of complications, and I
think about that doctors had determined that I was failing
and had kind of written me off. Obviously survived and
have had a number of surgery since to fix, you know,
(34:07):
what was medically wrong with me. In twenty eighteen, I
was told that I had to have another heart surgery,
so I had a complete pulmonary valve replacement open heart surgery.
It was really quite scary and reconnected with my now husband.
So you think of all these things now, hang on
a minute. I still want to live my life, and
you can't help but focus on that one percent that
you might not survive, you know. And then it wasn't
(34:27):
too long after that into my recovery, we found out
we were having a baby. And when I went to
see the doctor, the first thing he said was, don't
get too excited, because you might not be able to
have this baby because of what you've just been through.
And it wasn't until seven weeks later that I got
the all clear that it was actually safe for me
to carry a baby. And I think, you know, when
I look at this little child when he's asleep at
(34:49):
night after he's tormented me the whole day, and I
look at him and my cry, I just think about,
you know, you came from somebody who has written off
told that she wasn't going to survive, and then you
you were told that you couldn't survive. And so then
I think of just how powerful that is to tell
him that story for his own identity and then to
(35:11):
also reflect on who he is and where he comes
from culturally. And so for me, it's like, you know what,
if he comes to me one day and says, Mum,
I just want to clean toilets for the rest of
my life as long as those toilets are shining, or
if I want to do something totally different that I
wouldn't have envisaged for him, because let's remember, our goal
as parents is just to support their dreams, not create
(35:32):
it for them. As long as he carries his identity
and that cultural connection and grounding with him, then I've
done my job. You know. I remember taking him to
Thursday Island for the Remote Media Festival and he was
three months old and you would not have thought I
had a baby with me, just how calm and connected
he was to those around him, you know, knowing what
(35:55):
hard work is for a parent, especially female leadership, for
this little boy to see growing up, there's a lot
of things that I think we get anxious about as
a parent, what do we feed them? What are they
you know, when are they going to learn to read
and write? But for me, it's when he sees himself
in the truest sense of who he is as a
little black boy, as a little islander boy. That connection
(36:18):
to his countries, you know, that's important for me, and
you know, it's shining through talked about those that have passed.
We talked to him about and even my dad now
that I've reconnected with, you know, with his story and
he's no longer here. But you know the other day
he looked at the sun and he said, Mum, he said,
you reckon, my poppy. Did be is the leader of
the sun? And I said, well, he might be, And
(36:39):
he said, I think so because he follows us everywhere.
And I think for a four year old to emotionally
and mentally comprehend storytelling, that takes us back to how
it once was. And I think providing you know, those
opportunities for our kids to engage in teachings and learnings
in the ways that one were as a parent, that's
(37:01):
so important and it determines their own journey and their
own story. It's been a world wind of ups and
downs as a parent the last four years and still
doing the work and you know, turning up every day
to do our day jobs. But you know, we come
from those long lines of strong women and that matriarchy
that nobody can question because we've seen it done and
(37:23):
those examples are there. So I think for me, it
is like as the next chapters of my life go on,
is not only making sure that I stay grounded in
my responsibility for my child, that I absolutely stay grounded
in my responsibilities for my people and community, and that
I stay open and willing to learn and willing to listen.
(37:44):
That's been my education since dropping out of school, giving
up that education for an education that I feel has
far better served our ways of learning and growing and
you know, now being able to teach and be that
example for our young ones, but you know we're still learning.
We turn up the next day there's something something new
(38:05):
that we have to humble ourselves in and be willing
to humble ourselves in that opportunity and the reality that
we're still learning.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You can see why everyone I wanted to have this
this on the podcast. I could literally just sit here
and listen to you for hours as you're talking, and
when people talk to me, I just take little words
that's come to me. And I just want to say
a couple of things. I mean, firstly, thank you for
sharing that story of your early years. Yeah, the fire
and the part that was forged for you you were
(38:34):
going to take up And I just kind of wrote
down like this, Having little Lad is probably the most
challenging gift that you could possibly have, right, I think
in many ways that you are mothered and gifting and
teaching and guiding and listening in so many ways, not
just with Lad, but with your team, with what you
(38:54):
do in elevating black people and stories, and so we
kind of all get to benefit from you know what
little Lad would too. And it's just in this DNA
And you know when Son's talking about these things and
has conceptualizes a world outside of himself and he is
strong in his identity and knows where he comes from,
(39:15):
you know that's because of the guiding and listening and
teaching that Mum and Dad and family have provided. So
what a blessing. And yeah, I can't wait to see
what this little lad decides to be, what the world
is his oyster.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, I think that's it, and I really try, and
you know, we've got such a great team here that
we do operate in very much a family environment where
we you know, try and stay connected in ways where
you know, I often say to my team that if
you cannot physically walk through the door every morning to
come and do your job, then that's on me because
(39:50):
I've not provided a safe place, culturally safe place for
you to be. And that's a reflection of my leadership.
So for me, it's making sure that I do everything
I can the different branches of leadership as a CEO
to make sure that first and foremost, it's about them
wanting to be here and feeling that they can be here,
(40:13):
and a lot of that comes back to a game
what's our collective responsibility, but also leading with that emotion
first as well, because we need that, we need to
emotionally feel like we can be here and we can connect.
And I think a lot of that was kind of
lost during like the COVID period, you know, with organizations,
especially larger organizations. But for me, you know, I say
(40:36):
openly to my team, if you cannot open that door
when you come here every day, you need to talk
to me about why. And it's my job to make
sure that the next day that door swings open a
little bit easier. And what that's about is acknowledging that
people have stuff going on. Everybody's story is different that
family dynamics, community politics, relationships, obligations as a parent, all
(41:01):
of these little branches of that overarching tree of Yes,
you're my staff member and you're here to do a job,
but also you're a human and I value the gift
in you as a human first, and I'm just incredibly
lucky that you come with skills and qualifications to do
the job, but I value you as a human first.
(41:23):
Whatever you're going through, whatever makes you feel like you
can't come through that door, whatever makes you feel like
you can't be part of this team, which will then
eventually affect your work. My job is to make sure
that I'm providing that safe space for you to talk
that through and to help and support you. That's my
leadership style. And some people might go, well, you lead
(41:44):
to emotionally and not you know, mechanically, but I also
feel that I'm aware of that balance.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Well, I was about to say, well that my brothers
and sisters is exactly how you beer with burnout, because
it almost comes back to what you said, and I
get goosebumpy pimples thinking about this. It comes back to
the first thing you said when you started the job
at the Cury Mail, which is I'm here to willing
to learn. And here you are in this evolution of
yourself as a mom, as a fearless, soft but staunch,
(42:13):
amazing leader, still willing to learn from your team, still
willing to listen and say I don't have all the answers,
but my job is to make sure that you feel
safe to be here and to show up as yourself.
And like you say, we have to struggle those balances
of you know, getting the job done at times having
some more difficult conversations, but the skills and the attitude
(42:35):
and the competencies there. It's up to us as leaders
to create spaces where people can be themselves, especially in
the work that you follows do oh Cis you are
just an incredible, incredible person, and I am so grateful.
I love that. I love that we started this conversation
honoring the origins of the Cury Mail, but then getting
a sense of what's behind the mail, what's behind the news,
(42:58):
which is you and your and what you do. So
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me on. I think carrying,
like you said, carrying for me. You know those four
words in my back pocket, you know over time, opportunity
and choice, you know, welcome it, Welcome and celebrate that
black fellows have every right to take up opportunity in space,
and that you have every right to choose what is
(43:24):
right for you and to pursue goals and dreams. And
that opportunity and choice is such a powerful thing for
black fellows to feel like they have, you know, those
two words in our back pocket. But then also the
accountability and responsibility for me is like do not be
afraid of it. So I think oftentimes those words accountability
and responsibility is you know, like that dark cloud that
(43:45):
hangs over people. But do not be afraid of it,
because that is what feeds in to your ability, That's
what feeds into your identity and your purpose. That's what
feeds into I guess how incredibly invaluable your work is,
whatever sector that you're in, is because you've acknowledged that
you're accountable for that opportunity and that choice, that you've
(44:05):
made now that responsibility for me personally always goes back
to those that have come before me. And now what
I've got to give, you know, to my little boys.
So don't be afraid of that.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
It's so true. Like I think we as black Fellows
are inherently mindful of taking in everyone's perspectives and working
at a pace and you know, being accountable, and we
do it in any way, but how can we be
more intentional? And yeah, it's not a burden, it's a
blessing that we get to share it with each other.
(44:37):
We get to work together, like we all get to
come together and be able to shape up something up
in our shape, in our ways, with our rules, our protocols.
What a blessing that is. I could listen to you
all day. I just want to say thank you so much.
We're going to pop in the show notes where you
can follow. Of course this in Naomi, but also the
Corey Mail. They've got a bunch of really dead podcast
(45:01):
as well, which would be really great for people to
go over and listen to and just connect and be
a part of helping grow and shape the Carey Mail too.
Because it is self funded, they do a lot of work.
But anyone's listening and wants to go along, will put
all this in the show notes to come and follow
what your mob are doing. But I just want to
say thank you so much for being here today. Sis.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I just want to, like, personally, you know, obviously thank
you and your team for reaching out and crossing paths
and the work that you do, especially in partnership with
the Dance Center with you know, trauma and healing for
our black writers and journalists. It was incredibly impactful for
our team. But also just want to shout out every
single person that has played a massive role in the
(45:40):
work that I've been able to do, but you know,
more importantly the work that the crew mail has been
able to do. You know, I really hope that people
who have contributed and supported and have networked with me
or become a colleague of mine or you know, a
friend as well. I really hope that you think back
on that time and really value yourself and the impacts
(46:01):
that you made in those relationships and the work that
you've done. I think, yeah, it's really important that we
stay reminding ourselves that we don't get to these places
in these positions necessarily entirely on our own that there's
a lot of people that have pushed us and supported
and guided us, and there's a lot of people that
have contributed to those written words on those pages that
(46:24):
are the whispers of the ancestors. So I want to
thank everybody for that and thank you for supporting the careermail.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Wow, there really isn't a sufficient reflection of words that
can adequately describe what it's like to be in the
presence of somebody who exemplifies and embodies the essence of
being a community minded leader, someone who shows up with
(46:58):
labor and love in their heart like Naomi does. And
I think for me, like most of these episodes, it's
led me with a lot to think about around how
can we all be willing to listen, how can we
(47:18):
all be willing to learn? And how can we all
be willing to work together to build communities? Because if
we can do those three things, then we can truly
change the world. Until next time, your Mob, thank you
so much for listening, you Mob. If you are vibing
(47:38):
this season of Yarning up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us
some love, rate and review Alternatively, you can get in
contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot Carolinecow,
dot com, dot au
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Welcome to Yanni Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations
stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
(00:25):
proud barber woman and founder of Black Waddel Coaching and Consulting,
Caroline cow. We acknowledge the Runderi people and elders where
this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands
that you are listening in from today. It always was
and always will be unseated aboriginal and tourist Red Islander Land. Well,
(00:54):
I'm so grateful to have this cis on today. I
had the pleasure of meeting sis Naomi at a retreat
for the Corey mail that was had up on Ynabarrah
Country last year, and I must admit I just totally
fan girl, do you from Afar? But then I got
the opportunity to meet in the flesh and I was
(01:16):
just blown away by the love that you have for
your family, the love that you have for your community,
the way you show up for your team, just the
woman that you are and becoming. And I was like,
I have got to have you on yarning up, So
thank you so much for being here today.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Thank you for having me. And I know it's taken
a while for me to get here, you know, between
both of our busy schedules of course, but I'm really
grateful for the opportunity to just yearn and definitely catch
up after that incredible few days with that retreat for
our team. So it's really lovely to be in your
company again today.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Thank you, Oh, thank you, my sis. I mean, we're
going to get to unpack what Naomi does at the
Corey Mail and leading such an amazing archive new just
truth telling, honoring stories, honoring our mob. But I want
to start with, you know, getting to know usis. So
I'm wondering if you could just start by introducing yourself,
(02:11):
tell us about your mob, and yeah, a little bit
about yourself, Yeah deadly.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And I love this part because the opportunity to share
where I'm from. I think everybody you know has that connection,
strong connection to country and mob, and it's really special
to tell those stories as part of who we are.
And I'm proudly bunge Lung and dung Guddy my family
from Cobbage Tree Island, which is Yangaboo Country or nine
(02:36):
Ball Country as some people say. My mother grew up
on the island, and generations of my family members grew
up on Cobage Tree Island and occupied those lands. I
also have strong bloodline connections to the Dungutty nations, so
Southwest Rock's there on the mid north coast of New
South Wales, down km Country, kem See Country. So really
proud of those connections and really proud that that's my identity.
(03:00):
I identify as a bunch of lung Dungutty woman. That's
all I know. I only grew up with my mother's family.
I only grew up with my mother. My father was
absent growing up. He's a white fellow, but obviously didn't
have those connections and that relationship with him. So all
I know how to be is a black woman. And certainly,
(03:21):
if not feel completely indebted to my mob, my family,
and my community for the person that I've become today.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Thank you, Sis. It's so nice to kind of get
to know you. I guess because I imagine you're on
working in black media, You're always centering other people and
their story, so it's actually so lovely to get to
learn a bit more about you and where you're from
and what makes you you. I can really resonate with
that too. My dad was similar. He's a mingaloo fuller
and he wasn't around either. And so actually, in the
(03:49):
most recent years since his passing, had been trying to
find out information about the white side of the family,
being like, where is this part of me from? And
so I can definitely resonate with all of the black
matriarchy and how lucky we are to have taken on
those legacies. I want to ask you, sis, you know
you are the what is the title managing director?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So I started out as the little receptionist of the
Career Mail back in You'll probably do your math and
figure out how old I am as with the world now.
But I was a fourteen year old girl fresh out
of dropping out of high school in grade ten and
took the opportunity to take up a traineeship with the
Career Mail in nineteen ninety eight, and long story short,
(04:34):
loved every moment of I guess taking the opportunity to
be educated in the ways that we learn as black fellers.
And that was that first hand experience, you know, being
guided by those around us and guided by country and
guided by storytelling and traveling to community and stayed at
the Cremail then for a period of ten years, So
(04:55):
from ninety eight to two thousand and eight did my
first stint with the Career Mail and Mis proudly based
here on Bungelung Country in Lismore. So it was nice
to have that early career journey here on country and
then return in twenty sixteen when I was offered to
come back as general manager by the board of directors.
I've come full circle but now lead in the position
(05:17):
of CEO, so we've got some really great things to
look forward to in the future. But yeah, it's definitely
been quite the journey, but extremely I guess grateful to
be working for an organization that's one hundred percent grounded
in community, an organization that self determines, you know, how
they operate, that's one hundred percent average and run one
(05:40):
hundred percent self funded and supported by a national community
that's invested in the truth telling of our people, our communities,
and invested in black media and trusting in black media
to guide and direct the narratives that we need people
to hear to really break down the narratives that have
done nothing to serve our people. So yeah, really special place.
(06:03):
And I do talk very fondly about working for the
care Mail and being part of this amazing team.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
I mean, it's so special to hear that, and it's
like you were a part of the early formation of
this place and so to be the CEO and running
this place that is so grounded in community, being situated
with support by five traditional owners, being really rooted in community.
But to hear that you started out as a trainee
shit when you're fourteen, and the journey and evolution that
(06:31):
you would have gone on and where the Career Mail
is today.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I did all the jobs nobody wanted to do.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right, Well, they say, that's how even to do it,
isn't it. You know, get in learn and that's.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
How we start, you know, don't be afraid to start
from the bottom, which is obviously something that I encourage
our young people you know today with my mentoring and support.
But you know, reflecting on those early days where I
was a big notor and thought that you know, I
didn't need school, and you know, mind you they were
real valid reasons why I wanted to quit school. But
you know, stepping into the workforce, and I just remember
(07:04):
the first day and being completely overwhelmed and you know,
wondering had I made that right decision, and also stepping
into an organization at the time that was led by
a non Indigenous manager, and you know, the workforce in
a regional country type community as well. And so this
young career kid, you know, just really trying to step up.
And when I reflect on that, you know those moments
(07:26):
where I was like, well, I should have just stayed
in school and doing the things that you know, those
little jobs that nobody wanted to do. But I always
speak about I guess in those moments it's like that
sink or swim, flight or flight. Like for me, it
was about opportunity and choice, and I speak about pairing
that with responsibility and accountability. So for me, even at
(07:46):
a young age, as fourteen fifteen year old girl, really
embedding those mentalities into myself based on what I was
seeing around me, with the incredible leadership and the trailblazers
of that time, not just in our sector, you know,
not just locally here on Bungelung, but nationally and going right,
This is why I turn up every day and this
(08:09):
is why I, you know, stay willing to learn because
I made that choice to big note myself and walk
out of school. But I took up an opportunity, an
incredible opportunity. But now I need to step into my
responsibility and accountability to make sure that I make the
most of every day and have not not had a
job since, So I think just really trying to keep
(08:32):
myself alive in that spirit and not lose that spirit.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Oh my god, there's so much that I could unpack
with that. But thank God that in a knowing or
intuition or just being able to sort of take action
in your life at a young age. I think sometimes
we are like conditioned or you know, our proximity to
whiteness tells us we have to do things in a
certain order, and sometimes we do know what we need.
And stepping into the workforce being willing to learn and
(08:58):
now continuing to share the legacy that is the Cury
Mail in this way is so incredible. I mean, for
those of our listeners who have been living under a rock.
I mean, most of our listeners are mob but we
do have a lot of international people listening to which
is pretty pretty deadly, you know. I wonder if you
could talk a little bit about the Curry Mail. So,
the Cury Mail is, as we discussed, it was established
(09:22):
in nineteen ninety one because there was really no media
sources for MOB. There was nothing in our shape for
nothing to sort of shape the public perception asides from
mainstream which is really deficit discourse based, and unlike other
news and media sources, which is a twenty four hour
news cycle, the Cury Mail is produced fortnightly and it
(09:44):
really does center the strengths of MOB. So I'm wondering
if you could maybe share with people, yeah, a little
bit around what is the Cury Mail, what it is
that you follows are doing, and how it is that Yeah,
you're shaping this legacy.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah, and I mean it's such a special story to tell,
and I'm really passionate about continuing to share the story
of the creemal, its beginnings, its structure, how it operates
as a successful black business for over thirty years now,
because I think it's really important that these stories of
(10:19):
how our businesses and organizations and the trailblazing of the
indigenous media sector, those stories about how our voices, you know,
came on the airwaves, how our voices are being printed
in those pages. Is so important to the ongoing opportunity
for people to stay informed and educated and really again
(10:41):
take that accountability and responsibility for themselves to stay connected
to blackfellows through black media. So the care Email began
with one man Owen Carriage, and I always make sure
that I acknowledge, you know and tribute the inception of
the cremail and the idea of the Cremil to Owen
carry and our local elders, in particular Pastor Frank Roberts,
(11:04):
a local Bungelung elder who at that time heard the
ideas you know, was willing to listen to the ideas
of Owen about creating a voice for our people in
printed form and that that would contribute to the already
existing legacy of black media in our nation and our country,
particularly broadcast media. And then naturally, as ideas come to fruition,
(11:27):
there's a great need to invest in support in this.
And so now the structure of the creemal which has
been for such a long time now for over two decades,
operating successfully now for over three decades, is that the
creemail is one hundred percent average or owned by five
organizations from Bungelung country. So at a time where that
(11:49):
idea needed support, it needed to grow, it needed to develop, it,
it needed to be that source of truth telling and
it needed to carry the voices of our people. The
local Bunjelung elders came together and they invested, they invested
into the idea that this was absolutely something needed, you know,
(12:09):
not just for our people, but for the wider Australian community.
And so we have five Aboriginal organizations that are now
equal shareholders of the cremail and these are bunge Lung
organizations from Lismore, Balana, Kurrakai Casino and McLain and so
their organizations to play a big role in the structure
and the operations of the Cremail as well. And what
(12:30):
that means is that the model it's not only about
one hundred percent Aboriginal ownership, it's not about being one
hundred percent Aboriginal run and self funded. But what that
means is that every profit of the care Mail continues
to go back into community. So it's this incredible example
of this black ecosystem, economical ecosystem that continues to keep
(12:52):
giving back to our community and so the model allows
us to support those five organizations to do their work
anythink from so housing to use programs, to supporting emotional
and mental health well being on Bungelun Country, to making
sure that we're looking after country. What they choose to
do with that support from the CREAMAL is so important
(13:13):
to those regions here on country. That story of the
CREAML is so important. And for those that know the
history of the care email is a newspaper, perhaps they
don't know what exactly it means for these communities on
Bungelun Country, and that comes with a lot of responsibility.
But the integrity too is really special. And the fact
(13:35):
that for over thirty years now, the integrity of the
cremail in terms of that cultural responsibility is really important
to how our people see themselves knowing that their voices
are being heard, or how these organizations are able to
continue to operate and be supported by the Creemal by
this business structure. It's really special and I think just
(13:58):
really privileged to continue to work in a space and
place that I'm surrounded by my mob every day, but
to keep inviting people in, whether it's our correspondence that
are around the nation, our columners, people who contribute and
write for us, whether it's here and there or consistently,
and our incredible staff, but also our readers. To be
(14:19):
able to work in an organization and then have that
you go out to our readers and make impacts in
how they see blackfellows, how they receive the indigenous perspective
is really special and important.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Honestly, just stopping for a moment to take all of
that in because everything that MOB do is so much
more than what it presents as it's like this multifaceted
business organization that has these roots to give back to
local communities. It's so much more than media. And I
guess being somebody external who is one of the one
(14:57):
hundred plus thousand people that gets the Corey mail, we
see the beauty and the richness and the strengths and
the survival of our people which is sort of projected
back to us as we know it. You know, I
think stories really are medicine for us because it is
how it shapes how we see the world, but how
we see ourselves. And so we get to experience this
(15:19):
beautiful press and podcast and other digital platforms that you
fellows are putting out. But then to know that there
is a direct revenue and money going back into local
communities is just so special, so so special.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
It's also about that self empowerment and that self determination
and also making sure that we are paving the way
for our businesses and our organizations, our community groups, or
anybody that has an idea and wants to push for
that in that we can, even though we're operating in
these Western worlds of business, but we can maintain that
(15:57):
sovereignty and that self determination as businesses, that we can
determine what that looks like for us and our people
and our communities, and that you know, we don't have
to ask permission. And I think that's something that I
really value about the careemail, and I really value about
black businesses and organizations that operate in that way, is
that you know, we're done with asking permission. We're done
(16:19):
with that. And I think continuing to make sure that
we operate in that way, I think not only leads
an example, but obviously strengthens our ability to determine what's next,
What are the next chapters of the career mail, the
next pages, so to speak, of the career mail that
we step into. You know, different spaces and opportunities to
continue to be all that we can for community. But
(16:41):
what that comes back to is first and foremost at
the core of what we do, making sure that this
is absolutely about that self determination, that that empowerment, and
it is about making sure that we're holding on to
that sovereignty, you know, to go into the board meeting
with my board members and to put ideas on the
table and to not feel that automatically there's going to
(17:04):
be a resistance to that because this is more, but
this is community and these are my elders. And to
come in and know that I'm in that safety, in
that safe space, I think, in turn is quite empowering
for me to then step out of that into my
leadership even more knowing that I've got that backing and
that support of community and that no idea is a
(17:27):
bad idea. But what it means for me and my
leadership is that I feel confident and comfortable to lead
in that way and for it to be received in
a way where you know, I feel like we can
continue to do great things.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
You know, there's a couple of things that you touched
on there that I'd love to sort of just maybe
underscore or unpack a little bit, which is this notion
of yeah, not asking for permission or asking for crumbs,
or even just where are we aligning our interest in
our love and labor. And I think after the failed
referendum last year, yeah, I know, for me, it just
(18:02):
it kind of brought me back to this sense of, yeah,
we're not begging and pleading and appealing anymore. And like
you say, I think when you're operating from a framework
that's our oldest framework, which is aboriginal governance or cultural
rigor or being community led, then that's the framework that
(18:23):
we can all turn back to where we can do
great things together. And I think that's the one thing
that I think we should all be really focusing on, is, Yeah,
how do we apply cultural and community rigor over things
instead of trying to appeal to a framework or a
IGLOO way that has never really even been designed by us.
And so I just love that, Yeah, we're not asking
(18:43):
for permission anymore, but we're really trying to find new
ways to work together and make decisions and be accountable
to each other. And that's something else I want to
talk to you about, which I think that the CURI
mail does so well because you know, in terms of
the traditional media sense, you know, you might have a
two week cycle, and I think right now in the world,
(19:04):
there's never been I guess there's never been more of
an important time for truth telling and ethics in media,
because when we look at what we're seeing, what we
experienced last year with the rise of racism, the rise
of the right wing nationally, internationally, what we're seeing overseas,
how journalists just sort of diluting facts and mincing words
(19:27):
or just being dishonest entirely, I think that there's never
been a really more important time to make sure that
we honor the stories, especially of marginalized people. And I
think as things like technology continues to evolve and the
media landscape continues to change, there really should be an
importance on ethical journalism and that it should be more
(19:50):
pronounced because you know, it does shape public perception and understanding,
and ultimately, I think all media outlets should have a
commitment to truth and a ability and what you know,
we look to do, especially whenever we work with our
communities and telling a story, is to minimize harm and
strengthen the journalists and the media's role in telling and
(20:13):
honoring those stories in that way will be back you
mob right after this short break. What do you think
(20:34):
that mainstream media outlets can learn from places like the
coury mail in how to how to do that right,
how to really tell the truth in ways that are
doing good for society and that can set some ethical
standards for greater good instead of what we're seeing right now.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
And I often reflect on this, you know, because we
are in a national media landscape, even as an Indigenous
media organization and product as a newspaper, and so I
think about, first of all, we need to continue to
acknowledge that truth telling in the context of First Nations media,
(21:15):
whether you're a newspaper, broadcaster, television, content creator online, it
is truth telling, and that we need to acknowledge that
that is the core role and purpose that black media
plays because since colonization, all our people have tried to
have their voices be heard. And I think, you know,
(21:36):
obviously more recently is acknowledging just how much of a
role black media has played in carrying the voices of
Aboriginal Entrrostradnor people's and communities for such a long time.
But going back to acknowledging that the role we play
absolutely is connected to that truth telling because in that
national media landscape, we're the only ones that are doing it,
(21:58):
you know, mainstream we know contributes to how negatively the
Australian community see our people, hear our people, see our
communities and the issues that are directly affecting abajeonterres strata
on to people. And then I go back to the
first edition of the Kareemil, for example, came out in
(22:20):
May I think it was May May twenty three, and
the front page of that first edition, the leading headline
was racist violence, the Hidden Facts. So then I go right,
thirty years later, the Creemal is still telling the same stories,
still talking about the same issues. We're still trying to
drive the same agendas to make people wake up and
(22:43):
listen and read and hear the voices of our people.
And oftentimes, when I reflect on that, you know, I
get mad and I get angry, and I vow every
single day never to work for white media, because we
still have so much to do to change the narratives
in this nation on how people see our people and communities.
(23:06):
You know, those mentalities, you know, the ignorance is still there,
you know, and I get wild when people say Australia
is not a racist country. Will sit in a black
news room ten minutes and watch the stories come across
our desk and then sit around the table when we
have to put our staff into a trauma workshop so
(23:31):
that we can provide emotional and wellbeing support to our
journalists because of everything that they're seeing across their desk
on a daily basis, the desks and custody, the killings,
the protests, the children being taken away, the injustices, every
email that's opened, the stories that we're reading from communities
(23:55):
where we then have to take time to speak to
them about something that's happening to them. And while they
might not get a national profile or a national readership,
hundreds of thousands of stories of injustice that come across
our desks year in year round. Tell one Australian person
(24:15):
that thinks that racism and discrimination against blackfellows doesn't exist
in this country to step into our newsroom and see
how they feel when they walk out.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Yeah, I'm just taking that in because that's you know,
that's ironically where we met at the retreat. We were
talking about the trauma responses that Aboriginal and Torres Stoyland
or people of color, journalists and people in media who
are holding space for these stories what they experience. And
it is like this pervasive cost that the media bears
(24:45):
to do the justice that it's required to hold that space.
And because you MOB do work in this ethical way
when you're not flying into a community getting the story,
putting it up, not even fact checking it, or you know,
you're actually going in and developing relationships with these people,
you know, their families, their communities. You're trying to capture
(25:05):
the story in a strength based way, but then also
manage your wellbeing. And I think that that is a
really important sort of thing to know that this work
comes at a great cost to the mental, social, emotional wellbeing,
spiritual wellbeing, but it is still so equally important. And yeah,
I guess it's confronting to hear you say that the
(25:26):
first article headline is something that I know that you
MOB is still writing about. What keeps you going? What
keeps you going in this Where do you get your
fire from? Because yeah, some days would be so hard,
I imagine.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
I guess my experience is obviously my story and different
to others. But you know, going back to the age
that I was when I first stepped into the Creer
mail office and really having that early introduction not only
into the workforce, but the early introduction into black media,
and that I'd grown up with amazing you know, family
(26:03):
members that were leaders in our community, you know, doing
really great and impactful work at a local level. You know,
my mum marched and protests in the seventies, she was
there at the embassies, and I remember asking her one
day kind of what had changed during that time for her,
and she had said, well, you know, I've marched all
(26:26):
the marches. Now I actually need to go and get
qualified and skilled to continue doing the work for my
people in other areas that I know will continue to
make change. And so she became a registered nurse, and
then she spent thirty years of her life dedicated to
working in mental health and domestic violence and child sexual
assault as a counselor and caseworker and did all the
(26:48):
things to protect our people, our families and our women,
you know, to make sure that they were safe and protected.
And so I always go back to that conversation with her,
though brief, but certainly impactful in that again reflecting on
will once my accountability and responsibility to my people, because
before this world knew that I was going to be
(27:08):
male or female, This world knew that I was going
to be Banjelung. This world I was going to be
done gutty, this world knew that I was going to
be an Aboriginal. So for me, that is the core
of everything I do, the foundations of every day. And
I'm not saying that I'll get up in the morning
and check myself in the mirror and remind myself every
day of my identity, but I need to do that.
It's in my feet, it's in my soul, it's everywhere.
(27:30):
But for me is really being grounded and connected in
my purpose and what I want to see for our
people and communities, and that that comes from those that
have come before me, And I think that's really kind
of shaped that dedication and commitment that I have to
the black media sector is that we must keep telling
(27:51):
the stories of our people. The ones that hit us hard,
the ones that torment us and are traumatic, and the
ones that will never leave us, you know, but the
ones that celebrate us, that acknowledge just how incredibly fierce
how people and communities are and just how empowering it
(28:11):
is to be a blackfellow, to be a First Nations
person of this country, and that at the end of
the day, nobody can tell me different. But bringing all
of that into your leadership role as well is really important,
especially for an organization like the Creemal that has a
national profile. Knowing that everything that I really try to do,
and we're still learning every day, we're learning, but everything
(28:33):
that I really tried to do is honoring those that
have come before me, Honoring those first board members that
sat around the table to support Owen to carry on
the legacy of the Cree Male, Honoring the leaders and
the trailblazers of black media for decades and decades that
have paved the way long before I was even thought
of their voices. And I feel like the really special
(28:57):
thing about black media is we will never switch off
from hearing the whispers of our ancestors through the work
that we do. We will never lose that it's there.
Those stories are there, and black media has played the
most important role in making sure that the next generations
hear those whispers too, and that the next generations can
(29:20):
hear and see and listen and feel those family members
and community members that they never got to meet. So
we're focusing on archiving. We're focusing on making sure that
those oral stories and histories are still there. And how
important that is and for black media to play that role.
I mean, I talk all day right, the most important
thing that black media does is really safeguard and protect
(29:44):
the stories of our people in a way that it
will continue to educate and give knowledge and celebrate and
transform hopefully the mentalities, the myths and the stigmas, the stereotypes.
Black media is more than just a radio station that
(30:05):
you tune into or a newspaper. And when you pick
up the cre email and you flick through those pages,
you know that sound like they're the whispers of the
ancestors and the stories. And I just think it's really
a really special sector to have been part of over
the years, for over twenty five years now, and I
(30:25):
know there's so many stories of those trailblazers that are
incredibly special and have certainly enabled me to learn from
and to listen and listen deeply, and that I certainly
couldn't be in the position that I am now without
those that have come before me. And just really feel
incredibly lucky that the history of black media has been
(30:47):
now part of my journey. You know, I guess for
me is making sure that I stay genuine in my
intent carry on that legacy.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
My cis, I don't think you've got a waiver from
you know, not being genuinely be because you can. You
can feel it, like you've got this beautiful energy and
you know I felt it when I met you, and
I'm feeling it right now. And you are out here
trying your best to honor what was and build on
(31:16):
what is and walk in a value based way, living
a purpose that, like you said, whether you chose it
or you know, whether the ancestors already had plans, you
know you're out here embodying this and so we are
so grateful for you and your labor and what you
provide for the community locally there but nationally across so
(31:37):
cold Australia. You're right, we are never going to be
able to switch off our ancestors whispers and these are
much more than news outlets. They're archives. And I could
speak to you all day about this, but I know
you've got little lad to go collect. He's probably not
so little now. How old is he on you.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
He'll be five in June. So I'm a mum. I've
got a beautiful little boy, Digby. He's just an incredible spirit.
Pinch myself every day, even on the day that he
torments me and I kind of he's got me grant
in my teeth. I go, well, you wanted that he
gave birth to a highly intelligent, highly emotionally connected and
grounded little human, so it's only natural that he debates
(32:16):
and negotiates and you know, keeps me on my toes. Yeah,
he's just started a transition programming preparation for primary school
next year. So it's not easy doing the work that
we do, and it's certainly not easy when you become
a mum and you have family and other commitments as well,
and other hats that you have in the media sector
as well. But we manage because we've seen it done
(32:38):
before by those that have come before us. And I
can't help but reflect on, you know, being raised in
a single parent family with my mum and just really
trying to break down and unpack what that looks like
for her so that I can then make sure that
I'm doing the best that I can. You know, sometimes
I don't know what I'm doing half the time, because
(32:59):
you know, it's parenthood. But I think for me, as
long as I'm raising a little man that's so grounded
in his identity and his connection to country, which is
so important for me to be able to raise him
here on bunge Lung, you know. And also my husband's Fijian,
so he's so grounded and connected in his Fiji and culture.
He speaks Fijian as a second language, spoken fluently at
(33:21):
home to him. You know, he's now speaking bunge Lung.
The other day he forgot the English word for your ears.
And it's just funny that you know, this little human
is taking all of this in from the beginning. He
was written off by the doctor, just like I was.
I think about that relationship between me and my son
and when I was born. I was born with congenital
heart defects and my incubator in the hospital had a
(33:44):
label on it called failure to thrive. So basically they
are watching for me to know thrive or to fail.
They called me a blue baby. I'd stop breathing all
the time. I had a lot of complications, and I
think about that doctors had determined that I was failing
and had kind of written me off. Obviously survived and
have had a number of surgery since to fix, you know,
(34:07):
what was medically wrong with me. In twenty eighteen, I
was told that I had to have another heart surgery,
so I had a complete pulmonary valve replacement open heart surgery.
It was really quite scary and reconnected with my now husband.
So you think of all these things now, hang on
a minute. I still want to live my life, and
you can't help but focus on that one percent that
you might not survive, you know. And then it wasn't
(34:27):
too long after that into my recovery, we found out
we were having a baby. And when I went to
see the doctor, the first thing he said was, don't
get too excited, because you might not be able to
have this baby because of what you've just been through.
And it wasn't until seven weeks later that I got
the all clear that it was actually safe for me
to carry a baby. And I think, you know, when
I look at this little child when he's asleep at
(34:49):
night after he's tormented me the whole day, and I
look at him and my cry, I just think about,
you know, you came from somebody who has written off
told that she wasn't going to survive, and then you
you were told that you couldn't survive. And so then
I think of just how powerful that is to tell
him that story for his own identity and then to
(35:11):
also reflect on who he is and where he comes
from culturally. And so for me, it's like, you know what,
if he comes to me one day and says, Mum,
I just want to clean toilets for the rest of
my life as long as those toilets are shining, or
if I want to do something totally different that I
wouldn't have envisaged for him, because let's remember, our goal
as parents is just to support their dreams, not create
(35:32):
it for them. As long as he carries his identity
and that cultural connection and grounding with him, then I've
done my job. You know. I remember taking him to
Thursday Island for the Remote Media Festival and he was
three months old and you would not have thought I
had a baby with me, just how calm and connected
he was to those around him, you know, knowing what
(35:55):
hard work is for a parent, especially female leadership, for
this little boy to see growing up, there's a lot
of things that I think we get anxious about as
a parent, what do we feed them? What are they
you know, when are they going to learn to read
and write? But for me, it's when he sees himself
in the truest sense of who he is as a
little black boy, as a little islander boy. That connection
(36:18):
to his countries, you know, that's important for me, and
you know, it's shining through talked about those that have passed.
We talked to him about and even my dad now
that I've reconnected with, you know, with his story and
he's no longer here. But you know the other day
he looked at the sun and he said, Mum, he said,
you reckon, my poppy. Did be is the leader of
the sun? And I said, well, he might be, And
(36:39):
he said, I think so because he follows us everywhere.
And I think for a four year old to emotionally
and mentally comprehend storytelling, that takes us back to how
it once was. And I think providing you know, those
opportunities for our kids to engage in teachings and learnings
in the ways that one were as a parent, that's
(37:01):
so important and it determines their own journey and their
own story. It's been a world wind of ups and
downs as a parent the last four years and still
doing the work and you know, turning up every day
to do our day jobs. But you know, we come
from those long lines of strong women and that matriarchy
that nobody can question because we've seen it done and
(37:23):
those examples are there. So I think for me, it
is like as the next chapters of my life go on,
is not only making sure that I stay grounded in
my responsibility for my child, that I absolutely stay grounded
in my responsibilities for my people and community, and that
I stay open and willing to learn and willing to listen.
(37:44):
That's been my education since dropping out of school, giving
up that education for an education that I feel has
far better served our ways of learning and growing and
you know, now being able to teach and be that
example for our young ones, but you know we're still learning.
We turn up the next day there's something something new
(38:05):
that we have to humble ourselves in and be willing
to humble ourselves in that opportunity and the reality that
we're still learning.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You can see why everyone I wanted to have this
this on the podcast. I could literally just sit here
and listen to you for hours as you're talking, and
when people talk to me, I just take little words
that's come to me. And I just want to say
a couple of things. I mean, firstly, thank you for
sharing that story of your early years. Yeah, the fire
and the part that was forged for you you were
(38:34):
going to take up And I just kind of wrote
down like this, Having little Lad is probably the most
challenging gift that you could possibly have, right, I think
in many ways that you are mothered and gifting and
teaching and guiding and listening in so many ways, not
just with Lad, but with your team, with what you
(38:54):
do in elevating black people and stories, and so we
kind of all get to benefit from you know what
little Lad would too. And it's just in this DNA
And you know when Son's talking about these things and
has conceptualizes a world outside of himself and he is
strong in his identity and knows where he comes from,
(39:15):
you know that's because of the guiding and listening and
teaching that Mum and Dad and family have provided. So
what a blessing. And yeah, I can't wait to see
what this little lad decides to be, what the world
is his oyster.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yeah, I think that's it, and I really try, and
you know, we've got such a great team here that
we do operate in very much a family environment where
we you know, try and stay connected in ways where
you know, I often say to my team that if
you cannot physically walk through the door every morning to
come and do your job, then that's on me because
(39:50):
I've not provided a safe place, culturally safe place for
you to be. And that's a reflection of my leadership.
So for me, it's making sure that I do everything
I can the different branches of leadership as a CEO
to make sure that first and foremost, it's about them
wanting to be here and feeling that they can be here,
(40:13):
and a lot of that comes back to a game
what's our collective responsibility, but also leading with that emotion
first as well, because we need that, we need to
emotionally feel like we can be here and we can connect.
And I think a lot of that was kind of
lost during like the COVID period, you know, with organizations,
especially larger organizations. But for me, you know, I say
(40:36):
openly to my team, if you cannot open that door
when you come here every day, you need to talk
to me about why. And it's my job to make
sure that the next day that door swings open a
little bit easier. And what that's about is acknowledging that
people have stuff going on. Everybody's story is different that
family dynamics, community politics, relationships, obligations as a parent, all
(41:01):
of these little branches of that overarching tree of Yes,
you're my staff member and you're here to do a job,
but also you're a human and I value the gift
in you as a human first, and I'm just incredibly
lucky that you come with skills and qualifications to do
the job, but I value you as a human first.
(41:23):
Whatever you're going through, whatever makes you feel like you
can't come through that door, whatever makes you feel like
you can't be part of this team, which will then
eventually affect your work. My job is to make sure
that I'm providing that safe space for you to talk
that through and to help and support you. That's my
leadership style. And some people might go, well, you lead
(41:44):
to emotionally and not you know, mechanically, but I also
feel that I'm aware of that balance.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Well, I was about to say, well that my brothers
and sisters is exactly how you beer with burnout, because
it almost comes back to what you said, and I
get goosebumpy pimples thinking about this. It comes back to
the first thing you said when you started the job
at the Cury Mail, which is I'm here to willing
to learn. And here you are in this evolution of
yourself as a mom, as a fearless, soft but staunch,
(42:13):
amazing leader, still willing to learn from your team, still
willing to listen and say I don't have all the answers,
but my job is to make sure that you feel
safe to be here and to show up as yourself.
And like you say, we have to struggle those balances
of you know, getting the job done at times having
some more difficult conversations, but the skills and the attitude
(42:35):
and the competencies there. It's up to us as leaders
to create spaces where people can be themselves, especially in
the work that you follows do oh Cis you are
just an incredible, incredible person, and I am so grateful.
I love that. I love that we started this conversation
honoring the origins of the Cury Mail, but then getting
a sense of what's behind the mail, what's behind the news,
(42:58):
which is you and your and what you do. So
thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me on. I think carrying,
like you said, carrying for me. You know those four
words in my back pocket, you know over time, opportunity
and choice, you know, welcome it, Welcome and celebrate that
black fellows have every right to take up opportunity in space,
and that you have every right to choose what is
(43:24):
right for you and to pursue goals and dreams. And
that opportunity and choice is such a powerful thing for
black fellows to feel like they have, you know, those
two words in our back pocket. But then also the
accountability and responsibility for me is like do not be
afraid of it. So I think oftentimes those words accountability
and responsibility is you know, like that dark cloud that
(43:45):
hangs over people. But do not be afraid of it,
because that is what feeds in to your ability, That's
what feeds into your identity and your purpose. That's what
feeds into I guess how incredibly invaluable your work is,
whatever sector that you're in, is because you've acknowledged that
you're accountable for that opportunity and that choice, that you've
(44:05):
made now that responsibility for me personally always goes back
to those that have come before me. And now what
I've got to give, you know, to my little boys.
So don't be afraid of that.
Speaker 1 (44:17):
It's so true. Like I think we as black Fellows
are inherently mindful of taking in everyone's perspectives and working
at a pace and you know, being accountable, and we
do it in any way, but how can we be
more intentional? And yeah, it's not a burden, it's a
blessing that we get to share it with each other.
(44:37):
We get to work together, like we all get to
come together and be able to shape up something up
in our shape, in our ways, with our rules, our protocols.
What a blessing that is. I could listen to you
all day. I just want to say thank you so much.
We're going to pop in the show notes where you
can follow. Of course this in Naomi, but also the
Corey Mail. They've got a bunch of really dead podcast
(45:01):
as well, which would be really great for people to
go over and listen to and just connect and be
a part of helping grow and shape the Carey Mail too.
Because it is self funded, they do a lot of work.
But anyone's listening and wants to go along, will put
all this in the show notes to come and follow
what your mob are doing. But I just want to
say thank you so much for being here today. Sis.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I just want to, like, personally, you know, obviously thank
you and your team for reaching out and crossing paths
and the work that you do, especially in partnership with
the Dance Center with you know, trauma and healing for
our black writers and journalists. It was incredibly impactful for
our team. But also just want to shout out every
single person that has played a massive role in the
(45:40):
work that I've been able to do, but you know,
more importantly the work that the crew mail has been
able to do. You know, I really hope that people
who have contributed and supported and have networked with me
or become a colleague of mine or you know, a
friend as well. I really hope that you think back
on that time and really value yourself and the impacts
(46:01):
that you made in those relationships and the work that
you've done. I think, yeah, it's really important that we
stay reminding ourselves that we don't get to these places
in these positions necessarily entirely on our own that there's
a lot of people that have pushed us and supported
and guided us, and there's a lot of people that
have contributed to those written words on those pages that
(46:24):
are the whispers of the ancestors. So I want to
thank everybody for that and thank you for supporting the careermail.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Wow, there really isn't a sufficient reflection of words that
can adequately describe what it's like to be in the
presence of somebody who exemplifies and embodies the essence of
being a community minded leader, someone who shows up with
(46:58):
labor and love in their heart like Naomi does. And
I think for me, like most of these episodes, it's
led me with a lot to think about around how
can we all be willing to listen, how can we
(47:18):
all be willing to learn? And how can we all
be willing to work together to build communities? Because if
we can do those three things, then we can truly
change the world. Until next time, your Mob, thank you
so much for listening, you Mob. If you are vibing
(47:38):
this season of Yarning up, then please head over to Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you get your podcasts from to show us
some love, rate and review Alternatively, you can get in
contact and give us some feedback by visiting www. Dot Carolinecow,
dot com, dot au
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.