November 29, 2023 • 65 mins
In this week’s episode Caroline is joined by proud Wiradjuri and Yuin Woman Teisha Toi. Teisha is a mother, a cultural dancer and woman, a Dhelk Dja Counsellor at Albury Wodonga Health Service (AHWAS) and is deeply passionate about the reclamation and decolonisation of ancient and sacred Aboriginal practices - such as birthing on Country.
In this potent episode, Caroline and Teisha engage in an exceptionally raw yarn about motherhood, and delve into Teisha's remarkable journey of motherhood and her unique experience of giving birth on Country. Teisha recounts her journey of giving birth on Country, sharing her emotions and insights from the experience and the many profound lessons she's learned in navigating this process, mostly without support from the Western health care system. Together, they both explore their own journeys as daughters and also their mother wounds. This episode serves as a poignant reminder that, despite the impact of colonisation on our traditional practices and ways, are as Teish says, ‘inscribed in our DNA.’
Teisha is committed to sharing her story and facilitating conversations on this topic with those wanting to learn more. She has generously shared her Birthing on Country video which can be found HERE. To reach out to Teisha and find out more follow her on Instagram HERE.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review so we can elevate First Nations people and stories and don’t forget to follow the show! Follow Caroline on Instagram @blak_wattle_coaching and learn more about working with Caroline HERE
We would like to acknowledge Aboriginal people as Australia’s First Peoples’ who have never ceded their sovereignty. We acknowledge the Wurundjeri/Woiwurrung people of the Kulin Nation where the podcast was recorded. We pay our deepest respects to Traditional Owners across Australia and Elders past and present. And our future young generations.
This episode is for entertainment purposes only and doesn't replace medical advice.
This podcast was brought to you by On Track Studio.
For advertising opportunities please email hello@ontrackstudio.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to Yanni Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations
stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
proud barber woman and founder of Black Waddel Coaching and Consulting,
(00:30):
Caroline cow. We acknowledge the rundery people and elders where
this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands
that you are listening in from today. It always was
and always will be unseated Aboriginal and tourist Red Islander Land.
(00:54):
It's a beautiful sunny day. The birth of Nullah is
being met with family, beautiful coastline country. Teacher's surrounded by
(01:16):
her loved ones. Husband is not.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Far, he is on hand, the kids, They're all part
of this journey too. Teach and the mob are preparing
the coolermen and the postma skin ready for Nullah's arrival.
(01:45):
There smoke billowing, I can almost smell it. Two nurses
and health workers are insight an tishe lysis, her body,
(02:07):
her archetype, her ancestors. They've been here before.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I had the absolute pleasure of meeting this incredible
sister at a recent mother daughter retreat that we along
with Leekouch and Britt and yourself kind of co collaborated on,
which was a really special retreat with mothers and daughters
(02:45):
down at Hepburn's Springs. And you know, it's funny when
you meet people, I always call them sunshine people because
they just emanate this ease and this light and this love.
And I I think that's precisely how I would define
my next guest teacher a sunshine person. Tita wears many
(03:07):
hats in community, a mother, a cultural woman, adult jar
program counsel at aubrew Wodonga Health Service. Shout out to
those mobs who are doing incredible things for community. But
today we're going to unpack I guess the most the
most sacred role of all motherhood and Tita's incredible journey
(03:31):
to motherhood at that. So I want to start by
saying thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome
Tianni Up. It's a really it's a delight to have
you here today.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Sis.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Oh, thanks for having me Sis, And yes, I would
say that you're a sunshine person as well. It was
a pleasure and honor to make that connection with you,
Sissy at that camp, and I look forward to our
many years together on a journey. So yeah, oldest oldest
introduced myself some mye names Tsha, Maximo McGuinness just recently married,
(04:05):
so now missus toy. I'm a proud radri Yuan woman
and my connections are from the country, the river people
of Brangle and extends over the mountains into Reck Bay,
the South mob Yuan nation. So yes, a bit of
bit of fresh water and a bit of salt water
(04:25):
in me. And yeah, proud mother of four beautiful children,
and yeah, I would I would classify myself as the
matriarch of my family and then my lines as well.
So yes, thanks for having me, Sissy, and they're having
this space for me to come and yearn.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
No, thank you, siss, thank you so much. And yeah,
multi clan woman with your with your boras there. You know,
the retreat that we had was just so special, hay around, yes,
centering the ex experiences of Aboriginal women as mothers, as granddaughters,
(05:05):
and we had young warriors and elders and matriarchs all
coming together. And I know that you were a real
driving force behind that. And yeah, I'm not surprised that
you have gone on to share your experiences of being
a mom and bringing women and mums together in that
(05:26):
really special way. So yeah, thank you and thank you
for sharing a bit about your story. I wonder, you know,
can you tell me a little bit more maybe about
your your personal story and what it was like growing
up for you. Yeah, keen to hear a bit more
if I can.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
So I'm the oldest sibling of eleven.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Wow, I grew up in a home.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
With two younger siblings, so yeah, my mom's had the
three of us, but I'm the oldest from my father,
I guess I matured quite young as a child and
grew up before my time. So the responsibility and the
roles of the oldest child is an expectation that you
carry from when you're quite young, and as the female,
(06:17):
there's an added pressure and an added expectation of you
to take care. So I've been taking care of family
and the younger siblings from quite a young age. Beautiful childhood.
It carries a lot of trauma. We all carry trauma,
we all carry experiences, but those experiences and the trauma
(06:38):
that I carry, you know, has really shaped me into
the woman. So I'm glad I've had those experience and
I've had those lessons and those traumatic times because they've
really shaped me and grown me and strengthened me as
the woman that I am today. But yet grew up
with a single mother dad in and out of life.
But you know, shout out to dad. He is who
(06:58):
he is, and he only knows what he is ever known,
love him dearly, have a great relationship with him now.
But yeah, just when we grow up in those homes
and those situations where our parents you know, did the
best that they could do, but you know, still pass
on those experiences. Yeah, I understand their situation, but I
(07:20):
also you know, going into that retreat, why I wanted
to be a part of it was because I was
carrying a mother wound and I you know, throughout my experiences,
you know, and throughout my healing journey, there's still that
open wound there that you never really can really get
to because as women, we just carry on and we
(07:42):
keep going. And so to take my oldest daughter into
that experience and help her heal some of those wounds
that she's carrying, some of those some of those traumas
that I'd passed on her.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Or created for her.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
So to step into that space together and together heal
my mother wounds and her mother wounds, and heal our
wounds together. You know, it was really beautiful space and
it was amazing. And I guess to extend on that
upbringing sis, you know, carrying those experiences has driven me
(08:14):
to be passionate and to step into this role into
community to help other women become stronger and heal. And
I don't think it's about women finding who they are again.
I think it's about a journey of finding who you
are right now, because we're never going to be who
we were yesterday, and we don't want to be that
(08:35):
woman we were yesterday because every day we wake up,
we've grown, we've learned, and we've had an experience. And
so yeah, it's about knowing who you are in that moment,
in that day. And yeah, so you know, all of
everything that I've been through an experience has shaped me
to who I am today. And now I'm just in
(08:56):
full give back mode. You know, there's I often say
to my daughter, to myself and to the people I love,
all the people that you know need to hear. It
is when we can when we can use the weight
of our burdens cis as the anchor of our strength,
will become unstoppable. And so I've managed to channel the
(09:18):
weight of my burdens into the anchor of my strength.
And now I'm just thriving and leading in this space
and being that being that role model, and being that
woman that I need to be for my people, my children,
my family.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, gosh, that's so powerful, you know, the weight of
my burdens into the anchor of my strengths. And you know,
I think this is the most beautiful thing about Black followers.
I mean, there's so many we could be here for hours,
but just our ability to hold multiple truths at the
same time. And you're right, like so many of us
(09:55):
came from dysfunction and trauma. And it's certainly something that
has been coming up for me a lot lately in
thinking about becoming a mother myself. I actually haven't been
really open. This is probably the first time I've even
spoken about this on the podcast. That Yeah, my partner
and I have been on a fertility journey for the
(10:17):
last year and a half now, and yeah, like it's
just it's not happening the way that it should or
the way that we're designed or told to. But yeah,
that that mother wound and that ability to repairent ourselves
as well and then become the parent is something that
(10:41):
if I'm being really honest, I certainly wasn't going to
start off diving into this, but I think we have
to go there. But yeah, just like this sense of
dread and guilt and shame and worry that I'm not
going to be a good mother because of the mother wound,
and I've been really doing a lot of work in
(11:01):
thinking about how do we hold on to the two truths.
I mean similarly to usis, you know, when I look
back at my childhood, and we're all so unique, We've
all got such different experiences. So I don't know what
your experience was like, fully, but I feel the essence
of what you're saying, And yeah, like mum was, yeah,
(11:23):
lots of alcohol, lots of mental health issues, lots of violence,
lots of sexual violence, and you know, and we were
sort of, yeah, lived our lives without having really attentive caregivers.
And now I guess I still look back still with
such fondness and such love and generosity and hope and
(11:46):
think wow, like they did the best they could with
the tools they've got. They didn't get everything wrong because
we turned out okay ish today anyway. But yeah, so
that mother wound has been something that's definitely plagued me.
And so maybe you know, if I could, maybe we
could unpack that a little bit. You know, you've got
four beautiful children. I mean, how how have you navigated
(12:10):
that in becoming the mother and the person that you
are and will continue to become. Because I think we
need to explore Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, we do explore. We do need to explore it,
and I guess we do need to go there. And
I've got it more. You know, I've got it wrong
more times than I've got it right. But it's about acknowledging,
you know, the steps we take wrong. Acknowledging you know
that it's okay to make the mistakes, and that there
(12:41):
is no handbook, and that every day you wake up,
it doesn't matter how many kids you got, it doesn't
matter how many how many years you've been a mother.
Every day is a new day, right, something new pops
up some and you just you just take it as
it comes, like there's no there's no preparation, sis, there's
no set way to do things. You just literally wake
(13:04):
up and do the best you can with the tools
that you have each every and every day, and that
that's that's just it, Like there's no there's there's no
way of doing it right. You know, there's the Western way,
the things, the box ticking, but you know that's unrealistic
for anyone.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Any human being. We're all humans. We all are.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Just navigating this world however best we can. But yeah,
all I all I can do is reflect on, you know,
the experiences that we've had, reflect on the mothering that
I that I have, the mother that I have been,
and just try and be better every single day, try
(13:49):
and do better every single day, and try and be
the best version of myself every single day so that
my children have one hundred percent me full I guess,
a full you know, tuned in mother, authentic mother, that's
just you know, doing the best she can but leading
(14:13):
her children.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
In this world.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So yeah, there's no you know, you can prepare for
years and years.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
This yeah, and then you it's just so it's like
the thing that is just so out of your control, really,
isn't It is all the variables everything from each stage
from preparing for to fall pregnant, to falling pregnant, to
the labor to you know what, personality and characteristics your child.
(14:42):
It's just, you know, there really is no such thing
as a perfect plan. But you know, the modern world,
the Western eurocentric view of assumes that you know, the
mother has to be the expert and know everything and
do it on their own and kn't aarks for help.
And it just takes us so far away from how
(15:04):
we as Black fellows understand families and village and community
working together.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Hey it is and you know what, like this is
probably a really controversial statement, We're going to say it anyways,
just you know, complimenting what you just said, you know,
the Western way and what we should be doing.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
And I'll tell.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
You the rarest truth I can give you is that
you know, as a parent, as a mother especially, we
have to put ourselves first unselfishly and to getting in
that space and do to allow yourself to put yourself
(15:43):
first in an unselfish way, right because all we've ever
known as our mother or our father. I'll speak for myself.
My mother's always put herself first unconsciously, but in a
selfish way. So it's about recognizing those behavior is that
I've watched, recognizing myself and now putting myself first, unselfishly
(16:06):
to be the best version of my children. So if
I'm not well, if I'm not right, if I'm not
in tuned with myself one hundred percent, how can I
ever be what my babies need me to be?
Speaker 4 (16:16):
And that's the truth.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
There's an expectation that the mother has to put the
children first and put their needs first and cater to
their needs and to the needs of her husband and
her community and her family. But no, and that's where
we're getting it wrong. We have to put ourselves first
in that unselfish way and be the best version of
ourselves for ourselves first, so then our babies can get
(16:40):
the best of us and the best from us.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, it's such a it's such a simple but such
a powerful thing that you're just saying, which is Yeah,
I think if you neglect self, and you don't and
you fall out of love with self, or your fall
out of being present with self, or you abandon yourself,
then how on earth can you be attentive and present
(17:07):
to the things that are happening in your life and
especially your children. Yeah, I think I'd love to if
we can, I would love to unpack that a little
bit further because I know that so many mums and
especially black women who listening listening to the show, who
you know, are constantly providing feedback around how do I
say no when the world, the colony, my family, the
(17:29):
community just demands so so much from us. So I
wonder if we can park that and come back to it,
because I know that's something that we are all experiencing.
But let's kind of open up with a little bit
around your birthing experience on Country. And I said to
Tisha before we started recording that if I can get
(17:50):
through this without crying around which I have no problems in,
I am pro tears, but just so that I can
continue to speak, because you have generously shared a clip
with me of you giving birth on Country, it is
a beautiful, like all inspiring. I don't even know if
(18:12):
there's really English words. I thought, I wish, I wish
I had language in some of my own tongue and
not the colonizer's tongue to describe it. Because all I
can all I can sort of say about the video
is that. It's this beautiful thirteen minute clip of T
Shirt giving birth on Country She is, it's a beautiful
(18:32):
sunny day. They're down near the water, near the coast line.
You know, children and helpers and healers and Marmott sounds like,
is there. Mum's rooting for you throughout it, and yeah,
very attentive. Now Hubby is right there with you the
(18:53):
entire every breath that you took, he was there, you know,
seeing I'm getting chills.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
And I'm getting teary.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Ah it is Yeah, I cried multiple times. I cried
after it. It just transcends life in all of its beauty.
Before I go to just kind of talking about the experience,
you know, me being at this moment, I guess a
(19:21):
non biological mother. I went and did some googling before
this to look at, you know, birthing practices, and I
got met with this article which spoke about everything you
need to know about birthing basically since birthing began, and
it started approximately five hundred years ago. And I just
(19:43):
want to read through a couple of these things, and
I want to just kind of circle back to, you know,
how we as indigenous people have come at birth. So
the article starts in the fifteen hundreds and it just
talks about European women, you know, it doesn't have any
no other people of color or anything being mentioned. You know,
(20:05):
fifteen ninety one it talks about a Scottish woman being
burned at the stake fasting for pain relief. It goes
on to talk about ride up until the seventies, you know,
fathers were finally allowed to stay with their parent, with
their partner during the labor nineteen eighties is really when
home birth and birthing centers were finally considered a part
(20:30):
of the way that women have already given birth. And
I was just truly blown away that, Yeah, we couldn't
I couldn't find anything about black women, about ancient practices,
about you know, the ways that Aboriginal indigenous people have
been giving birth for thousands of years. They have had
(20:52):
you know, rituals and ceremonies around labor and birth and
postpartum periods, and so yeah, I was just I was
in I was not surprised, but it just goes to
show that, you know, colonization is is really interwoven into
every single tapestry, even you know, women and mothers' first experiences.
(21:20):
So with that, I want to just sort of say,
can you share with me a little bit around you know,
just birthing on country generally, you know, what, what's your
knowledge of how birthing on country practices have come to be?
Because I'd really like to go back to this. You know,
(21:41):
before colonization, we were we were doing this as an
uninterrupted practice for so long, and it just seems that
there's so much written knowledge I guess missing about this.
And as more and more women are thinking about this
as a process and practice, you know, where do we
find information about this?
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Look, and that's a good question, And unfortunately I don't
have the answer for you. You know, I guess on colonization,
a lot of our ways and our practices have been
taken from us and haven't been returned to us. That
knowledge has been lost, you know, not written down, not
(22:24):
not found. But I just want to highlight the fact
that the knowledge is in our dnasis, the books, written
inside of our makeup.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And so it wasn't it wasn't. It wasn't a matter
where I've gone and sought out that information or that
advice from the aunties, because unfortunately, those generations, they're not
carrying it. And that's not everyone, that's that's the majority.
You know, some some women have law knowledge around birthing
and stuff, but unfortunately for me, I don't have those
(22:56):
women in my life, and so I relied solely on
that imprinted DNA that I carry, knowing and listening to myself,
listening the country, listening to you know, my ancestors, and
being guided to that space.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
I just found my way.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
There and knew that it was the right thing for
me to do, and not only the right thing for
me to do, but the right thing for me to
show the way and to bring that story back without
having it written in a book, you know, showing women
that this is what we've done. And it obviously is
what we've done because it happened so naturally and so normal,
(23:35):
and yeah, it hurt a little bit, but nothing like
the pain I experienced in a hospital system when I
birthed my first children, and so yeah, I just want
to highlight again that it's information that's imprinted into our DNA.
We hold, we hold the knowledge, we hold that space
(23:56):
and it's imprinted in us, and so listen, being aware
of yourself, knowing yourself and knowing that the strength you
carry isn't just your strength, but the strength of all
those ancestors and those people that came before you.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
What a beautiful way to reframe my colonized mindset really
in thinking about this in giving birth, I think it's
a reminder how important language is. And you're right, it's
something our bodies have been doing since we existed. It's
something we've had practice around, you know, as women's business
(24:36):
since millennia. And so it comes back to that inner
knowing and finding that time to get clear and check in, listen,
you know, listen to yourself, value, your own knowing.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and listening to that deep spring that's
within us, allowing that deep spring to bubble and grow.
And right if that deep spring within us that we
carry is flowing and you know we're listening to it
and we're being guided, then you know there's no interruptions,
(25:14):
there's no outside negative influence. We're just fully in tune
with ourselves and our mother. And I'm talking about you know,
Mother Earth here, and you know, if we can maintain
that connection as an individual with Mother, then we become
the greatest mothers.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
So yeah, well, it's powerful.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Gosh, I could listen to you ya see what I
was saying before about sometime person how you're just one
of those people that is just so powerful and I'm
hanging off of every single word. It's not really great
for a podcast, but my mouth is just like in awe.
I mean, let's think about that. I guess, like connection
with mother and your connection with mother. You know, you
(25:56):
gave birth to your second child, Nullah on Country and
Beautiful Clip.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Their child, third child.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, I wonder if you can walk us through the
process and the day. Like, firstly, I mean very keen
to hear about what led you to give birth to
baby number three, Nullah on Country, And I'm wondering if
you could kind of walk us through through the through
the process and the day and how it went for you.
(26:29):
And yeah, if you could kind of help us understand
this this process that you went through.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah. Look, it's a massive journey and it was a
massive journey Sist that started well before even you know,
thoughts about creating him. You know, I walked away from
an extremely violent, volatile relationship that I found myself in,
you know, that pattern for a good ten years, and
(26:59):
I found my twin flame. From the moment Marcus and
I met, I knew that, you know, we're meant to
be together. And you know, there were there were dreams
with our old people talking and discussing us, and it
was it was crazy. And then you know the next
step of that relationship was, you know, to create, to
(27:22):
create another part of our love in in a little person.
And so you know, we were decided, yeah, we both
coming too this relationship. We both have two children each
from our previous relationships, and we wanted to you know,
share our love together and create create a child from
(27:42):
just the most purest form of love. And you know,
a lot of people and our one created children previously
to fix something or to fill a hole that or
to or to mend a wound that I was carrying.
I wasn't creating children to create them from pure love.
(28:04):
And and that's that's the that's the reality, and that's
that's the raw truth of my story. And so we
decided that, you know, we would create Nullah. And we
we lost the child before we created Nullah. And you know,
through that healing journey and through understanding you know, lost, we.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Were gifted Nullah.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And so you know, experiencing the loss of that first pregnancy,
knowing that I was creating a child out of the
purest form of love.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
It really it was really heavy.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And so you know, I was like, you know what,
I've been gifted this fellow. I'm going to do everything
proper ways. I'm not going to listen to mainstream and
do the mediocre. This is how you got to do stuff.
I was like, I'm going to go back to grassroots.
My people have been here since the beginning.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
I'm going to go back to their ways.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I like you, tried to study, tried to find out,
reached out to many people, just trying to be like
where do I go, how do I do this?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
What do I do?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
And you know, six months into that pregnancy, I was like, woman,
you know what you have to do. It's in your DNA,
you know, listen, listen to yourself, listen to your old people,
trust yourself. And so yeah, I reached out after googling
so much, to an aboriginal midwife up the North Coast
(29:38):
and she was doing ceremony out on country with mothers
who have just birthed, and I was like, Sis, I'm
going to birth back out on country.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Can can you support me.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I was like, because at the end of the day,
when I'm at that point where I'm going to where
I'm in labor, I'm going to go down the river
and it was going to sit under a tree and
I'm going to do it anyways, but I thought I'd
reach out first just to have that sister support, you know,
that matriarchal support, because it's a space.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
That women carry together.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
And she's like, Sis, I haven't done it, but I
know we can do it, and I can't have you,
with my Western medical background go out and sit under
a tree and do it by myself. So I drove
up to Nara, I met with her and she said,
doesn't matter what I say, You're going to do it.
(30:33):
And I can see. I can see the strength that
you carry and the wheel power. So yeah, she jumped
on board. Reached out to some home birthing midwives who
have been you know, in that space and holding that
space for many years. They currently have a campaign running
(30:54):
across the country and they come from birth Time Australia.
So yeah, they were amazing women. They came down, they
supported me, and I guess manage the Western risks right
managed the box ticking the medical side of it, because
you know, that's just the world we live in now.
(31:15):
We walk in those two worlds and we have to,
we have to by law, follow that way. And so,
you know, Marcus and I going into that space knew
that you know, this is this is how messed up
it was that we had to acknowledge the fact that
if anything went wrong, that.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
We were responsible.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
If our child had a medical emergency or did pass
away during that process, that you know, we would be
held accountable. And you know what, we owned that and
took that responsibility straight on our shoulders because we knew
at the end of the day we were doing the
right thing, and we had over sixty thousand years worth
of women before us that did the same thing. And
(32:01):
so yeah, I guess I went up and stayed out
on country for a couple months before birthing son, and
I guess a week before my due date, all the
midwives average and midwife and the two home birthing midwives
came down and met me and said we did little
(32:21):
ceremony and kind of cleansedale spirits as a united force, right,
and then we went out on country out to the
National Park where our birth son the week before.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
It was about I don't know, midday, and.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I was like, this is I was just drawn to
a spot where the fresh water rolled into the ocean.
Remember I said previously that's what I made of freshwater
and ocean people. So it was a magnificant spot. It
was a spot that resonated with me because of the
history and the family lineage that I carry. I said,
(33:00):
I'm going to birth under this tree. The Sun's going
to be right there where it is in the sky. Now,
it's going to be a beautiful day surrounded by you know,
just just that pure peace.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
And that love and that unity.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I can imagine that on that day animals are going
to come out of the bush and witness this experience.
I'm going to have him and then go home, right
They're like, yeah, all right, we'll see yep. Anyways, a
week later, went into labor, went out to the spot.
It was the exact same time of day, beautiful day,
(33:38):
beautiful space. All the animals were coming out and watching
me during that labor and as you can see and
as you have seen on the video, those animals did
come out and surrounded me and obviously you know that's
them old people coming and watching and watching their dreams
that they had for us come true in that moment.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
And I tell you what's this. It was a hectic pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
All I had was you know, push back and negativity
and you can't and you won't, and this is what
you're going to create and you're going.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
To kill your child and this, this, this, this.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
And that, and I just like acknowledged it. I accepted
that those people are those people and they are who
they are, and I understood that their way of thinking
was a trained way of thinking, and fully respected everything
that was said to me, but knew that I knew
(34:33):
what I was doing and that I was capable to
do what I what I did and what I achieved,
And I guess the greatest part about it was, yes,
you know, in a Western system where mothers are pregnant
and giving birth, that the husbands and the children are
excluded from that experience. At the moment that you say
you're pregnant, children aren't invited.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
To those.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Visits with the doctor. Children are part of those. And
then we have a child and bring this new child
home and say, okay, you kids, now love this creature
that's just taken your mother away from you, so to
have the children part of that process and a part
of that experience. You know that that was what it
was all about for me to show my daughter the
(35:20):
power that we possess as black women. To show my
daughter that with all the pushback in the world, that
you could do what you want to do if you're
willing to put in you know, the work and back yourself,
to show her that you are not constrained by the
systems that hold us and suppress us, that you can
achieve and your mother's here to do it for you
(35:44):
and every other woman to know that, yeah, you possess
the power. No one else can hold or take away
your power unless you allow them.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Wow, Oh my god, I've got so so many thought
and feelings running through my mostly feelings. It's it's, it's
it's a deeply spiritual and emotional conversation this because I mean,
just the belief that you had and that knowing and
that fire, and that you and Marcus were so united
(36:15):
in what you wanted as sovereign, sacred you know, ancestral people.
Because you're right, like what you said about their going
back to the conditioning, and you know, when we're looking
at decolonizing health. It's returning back to practice that have
sustained us but that are just not valued by Western science.
(36:37):
And so you know you held that belief and that vision.
I mean, I've got a couple of clarifying questions just
to go back for the listeners. So when you made
that decision, you know, six months during the process were
and so you had to source out your own support.
You know at that stage, what did what we met
(36:58):
with in the in the healthcare system? Did you have
to do this all on your own? Were you supported?
Was there anyone else kind of you know, yeah, I
wonder what you had to sort of go through to
actually yeah, birth on country? And then what do you
think when the second kind of question is that is like,
(37:18):
what do we need to see changing in this system
to make this a bit more accessible and more supported
and more guided.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Okay, so the so the first part of your question,
I made the decision to birth on country before I
even conceived Nullah. The reference to six months in was
I was doubting myself for the first six months because
of the pushback and the I guess the nose from
(37:47):
the Western system. So I did have the support. So
I work at the AMS here in my community, and
you know, being attending this ams, they know me, the
doctors know me. I spoke to my you know, obstetrician
who works at the service, and was like, you know what, this.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
It's it's not even it's not even a matter of
I'm wanting to do it. I'm needing to do this
or for for.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
My women, for my daughter.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
And from the start he was he was like, there's
there's no way. And I was like, what do you
mean there's no way, Like I wouldn't be here right
now if all the women before me didn't didn't.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Hold that space right And he's like it's not possible.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And I was like, the more you tell me no, mate,
the more I'm going to go and do it. And
so I was like, you know what, Marcus. You know
there's a massive birthing tree on the river down in
like down at town here. I was like, literally on
the other side of the hill is the hospital.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
I was like, we'll just.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Go down there. I'm just going to do my thing.
If anything happens, babe, just ring the ambulance because it's
literally a two second drive over the Hill. I told
the doctors that, you know, this is what I was
going to do. And so yeah, just the constant pushback
and just the constant knows And it was, you know,
(39:18):
this aboriginal midwife that's been practicing for a while in
the hospitals and holding that safe cultural space for women
in the Western hospital system. I reached out to her.
I knew she was, you know, fundraising, trying to get
money together to create an Aboriginal women's birthing space up
on her on Country, back on you and Country. So
(39:40):
I just reached out and said, cis this is what
I need to do. Can you support me?
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Like I want? I need support.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
I was like, I'm going to do it either way.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
I was like, but I want that.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Cultural safety and that support that I know you can provided.
I haven't just been led to you for no reason.
You know, I'm listening and you've come into my life
and I need you in that space. I need you
to hold be that container for me during that during
that time. And she just said, yeah, like I have
to listen as well, and that's us Like it's that,
(40:15):
like I said, that listening to what you're being told,
being so in tuned with yourself, that you are fully
connected to mother and the instructions that you receive, you're
hearing without even doing.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
So.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, just being one hundred percent confident in who I
am and where I come from. It was it was
going to happen this, Like I don't know how to
explain it. I just there was a bigger driving force
behind it than my will power. And like I said,
I truly believe it. It's the strength of those old
people that I carry, pushing me and getting me. And
(40:55):
you know, we're all walking and living the dreams that
they had for us. And that's just another dream that
they had that that practice and those ways would continue on.
And you know that's me rewriting that story for now.
So yeah, I don't know say about that. I just
(41:17):
it still blows me away, you know, it still puts
me in puts me in this place of just being
in awe and not of myself, but what I was
able to, what I was able to do, you know,
And like I said, it wasn't even about me. It
was about those future generations and those young girls that have.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
All the control and all that power.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Taken from them in that birthing and pregnancy space from
the beginning of even thinking about creating your own family.
You know, you're just so influenced and it's such a
fear based system that works perfectly.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, it kind of just it's just a beautiful reminder.
It makes me wonder about what would be possible for
us if we spent more time doing what you said
earlier about nurturing self, to get that sense of clarity,
to trust ourselves and to build self trust and self
(42:20):
compassion as black people and black followers. Just kind of
makes you think what else is possible if we get
clear with ourselves and allow that space for our ancestors
to just be there. You know, I often call and
speak to them in a time of crisis instead of
just being with them and guiding and so just yeah,
(42:41):
for me, it's just a stark reminder of how do
we get more in tune and more into that space?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Look sis in one hundred percent, and you know, for
this story to be successful, you know, for other women
in this today, you know, I could justify to that
I had Nullah.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
I did it on country.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
I've shared that experience after Nullah, I had another child,
and I took my experience and my space that I
had out on country into the hospital system and had
an even more glorious birth because I walked into that
Western system carrying all the strength, all the control, and
all the power and birth on birth my way in
(43:26):
that space, in full control and made that Western system
sit and be quite why I held that space for
myself with my family, and I guess you're if you're
confident in enough in yourself and believe in yourself enough
and know yourself that you can take a birth in
(43:47):
your country experience in the any setting and own that space.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, Oh, that's so powerful, so powerful to hear, because
you're right, like I think the healthcare system generally, in
all the work that we do in looking at racism
in hospitals and especially the female gendered experience, is that
you know, healthcare systems are the only place where it's
(44:12):
about speed and efficiency. It's not a deep, it's not
a intentional loving black pro black space. And so yeah,
to hear you have gone through this kind of transformative experience,
bring all of that power, all of that strength, all
of that beauty, all of that knowledge back into the
(44:35):
healthcare system to reclaim it and that it's on your
terms is truly powerful and there's probably a lot of women,
you know, not just black followers or sisters that you know,
do you just have their rights taken away, especially when
giving birth. And so how do we make this process
more person centered and more individualized for the individual to decide,
(44:57):
because there's no one way, there's no blanket rule approach.
But it seems as though when women go in for
these these for labor and leading up to labor, we're
just kind of conditioned, indoctrinated, or led to believe that
this is the blueprint, this is how it has to
be done, and if we deviate from that, that we're
(45:19):
not doing it right. So yeah, I love I love
hearing this yard and speaking truth to power here and that, Yeah,
what a reminder for all people who are experiencing this
to really, like you say, just trust yourself.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
Trust yourself.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah, And I think in the process of life, since
we forget to be still, and that's the number one
right you need to sit, be still and listen, and
in the birthing space, the exact same sit and be still,
listen and then carry that confidence with you. You know,
it's such a fear driven space and that comes down
(46:00):
to once again that colonization that control. If you can,
if you can manage to get in tune with yourself
and really listen and know and be confident in the
fact that you can do it. Your body is designed
and mechanically to do this, you know, without any issues,
and carry that that strength. Yeah, reach out to reach
(46:22):
out to women who have had great experiences. You know,
we always hear about the horror stories and what goes
wrong and and how horrible this pregnancy was and how
sick I was in this pregnancy. But you know, where's
the talk up and the build up from the sisters saying, well,
you know, I had a great experience during this pregnancy
(46:42):
or you know what, I walked into that space and
I birth so calmly, like, where are the build up stories?
Where are the sisters picking up other sisters and you know,
really cheering on other sister girls for wins, not just
that you know, sharing that trauma and sharing those those
negative stories build each other up. And the only way
(47:04):
around it is to do it for ourselves. This mom
know how to take care of moment. It's time that
we do. We're not in competition with one another. Share
the beauty of sisterhood with one another because it's the
way forward for our sister girls, right.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Absolutely, and just how grateful we are for you sharing
this story is a very personal and sacred one, but
really helping us all understand, like you say, what we've
always known and what we've always done, and just the
power of the gift and the medicine that is your
story and sharing this for other women is really really special.
(47:44):
So I thank you so much. I mean, can I
ask you, maybe this is a selfish question because of
where I'm at in my journey the labor process. I mean,
I don't obviously I know that that clip is a
thirteen minute clip and that wasn't the full labor experience,
but the poise and the grace and you know, you
(48:05):
were one there with your breath, and you know, it
seems to me that, yeah, watching you just do what
your body had to be done because you had that
sense of expansiveness of knowing and being okay in your skin,
I mean, was truly something so powerful to watch. But
if we flip to motherhood and post labor, you know,
(48:27):
I'd really like to know, you know, what what aspects
of motherhood do you find the most fulfilling and you know,
how has it challenged and shaped you as well? Like
what has been the sort of what lessons has becoming
a mother meant for you?
Speaker 4 (48:45):
Yeah? Look, I guess I'll start with the biggest lesson is.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I guess being programmed in my upbringing that the children
you love, the children the same, They all get the same,
there's no favoritism. But you know, it's taken me. My
oldest is fifteen and a half, and it's taken me,
you know, the last fourteen years. About a year ago
I realized that every child that you have has their
(49:15):
own individual personality, has their own you know, love needs,
has their own individual needs and connection needs with you
as a mother, And so listening to your child, picking
up on the cues and being present in their needs
and providing that space with each child as an individual,
(49:36):
not as a collective, would be the biggest lesson I've
learned this. Prior to that understanding, I was loving them
the same. I was giving them the same amount of time.
I was, you know, giving them the same amount of presents,
or giving them the same amount of whatever it was,
and not even acknowledging the fact that this child needs
(49:59):
this from and this child needs this from me and
asking them. You know, I did a great activity probe
year ago with the older children and it was that
simple love languages quiz on the Internet and I all
have devices. Sit down, new followers, let's sit down as
a family on our phones and let's do the love
(50:20):
languages quiz. And we sat there and Marcus did it.
I did it, and both Lailah and Zeke did it.
And wow, like I thought, I knew my kids, man,
and I was loving them completely wrong, and I was
loving them selfishly right.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
I was loving them the way I wanted to love them.
I was loving them.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
The way that I didn't receive love when I was
that age, or what I wanted at that age, and
not even considering them as their own, authentic little self
and what needs they needed from me. And that love
Languages quiz was amazing. Man, It just wow, blew my
head off, like just hag them completely wrong. But I
(51:00):
was coming at that angle of that selfish love right,
that unconscious, selfish, selfish love, fulfilling those needs that I
had within myself, healing those wounds within myself about and
loving them the way I wanted and what I missed
out on without acknowledging them as their own people. I
(51:20):
think the greatest the greatest advice again is when you're
a parent, is that deep listening again, listen to your child,
be present, watch behaviors. We never spoke, We didn't speak.
It was all visual. We didn't need to communicate verbally
because you know, our body language and what we did
(51:44):
was the way we communicated. And children are so raw
and real and they really show us the old ways,
right they in their behavior, in the way they act,
in the way that they seek love. And so yeah,
just be present and listening again. It comes down to
that deep listening. And I'll keep talking about it because
(52:06):
that is truly what we don't do anymore. We're so
busy and lost in work and the technology and the devices,
and you know, we're listening with our eyes twenty four
to seven. But we need to stop and peel back
and listen deeply within ourselves and you know, use our
(52:26):
ears truly.
Speaker 4 (52:28):
Yeah. I don't know if I answered all of that question,
but where I.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Went you so did. And as I say, I could
just listen to you speak about this stuff all day.
But it's one of those things when you say it,
it sounds so it's just nice, I think, to be
reminded that really it is just about stripping us all back,
getting rid of that ego, getting rid of that being
(52:53):
told how to do things. And it's just interesting to
hear that, just like your pregnancy and your labor wasn't
a one size, that you have continued that approach with
looking at how you view your children. It's that helistic
kind of approach, and you know, for children of trauma,
(53:13):
and you know, for us who have kind of had
to navigate some of the adversities from our parents, you know,
it's just so comforting to hear I guess that there
is a new way for us to love ourselves most importantly,
as you've said, and then go on to sort of
emanate that love to our children, and that yeah, we
(53:34):
don't have to recreate all of these unhelpful patterns that
we have learned that we can relearn and unlearn, and yeah,
do things a different way, do things our way. But yeah,
it's just beautiful to hear that, you know that the
way that our parents would have parented us was just
(53:54):
so yeah, blanket, blanket approach. So yeah, thank you, I know, and.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
You know what I just want to extend on that too.
Part of you know, who I am today is acknowledging
and owning my ship, man like owning ship that I've
created and owning you know, the behaviors and destruction that
I've that I've created in the past through you know,
(54:21):
all the pathways that I took previously, owning that.
Speaker 4 (54:24):
And really really.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Just being like, you know what, yelp, that was me,
and I own that and this is me now. Like
until we can fully sit in and own everything that
we've done, you're never going to get to a place
of deep listening because you're still distracting yourself and still, yeah,
you need to own your ship, like straight up, and.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Like being like deep listening is getting fucking really honest
with yourself and it can be really confronting when you're
left with those shadows and the stuff that people, yeah
don't necessarily see. You're so right. So I'm saying it's
such a sounds like such a simple, beautiful, easy process,
but I can imagine there's lots of setbacks and challenges
(55:09):
along the way and getting like really reacquainted with ourselves,
like and you know, making ourselves comfortable in our in
our shit as well. Like hard.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Yeah, and I talk a lot.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
I talk a lot about you know, being strong and
carrying the strength and being this person. But Sis, we've
got to just fucking sit there and just I hate
being strong all the time. Like I want to be vulnerable.
I want to be in that vulnerable state. And we
don't allow ourselves or if we do become vulnerable, it's
an unhealthy place. And you know that's where patterns or
(55:44):
drug use or alcohol abuse or you know, perpetrators of
violence find you in those unhealthy, vulnerable places.
Speaker 4 (55:51):
So it's about sitting and.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Listening, allowing yourself to be vulnerable, not just being that staunch,
strong person all the time. Go through the motions. If
you're feeling sad, sit in it, be stealing it, allow
that time to pass. That's how we heal, and that's
how we we get at We become you know, strong,
(56:14):
because we're allowing ourselves to be in a vulnerable place.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
That's healthy. We need we need.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
To and we don't, especially as black women, because of
those expectations. I was talking about, those family expectations, those
community expectations, those workplace expectations, you know, the expectations that.
Speaker 4 (56:33):
Your children put on you and so we just go, go, go, go, and.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Just doesn't matter what happens, we just keep you know,
we get through it and we.
Speaker 4 (56:43):
Just keep moving forward.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
But we need to sit and be still, allow ourselves
to be in a healthy, vulnerable place, to go through
those motions, to sit still through those times, allow them
to pass in their own time.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Gosh, I'm getting chills just I'm just like shaking my
head air high fiving because you're right, I feel you
on that cis. You know, when we sort of put
that strong black trope or angry black trope, we're just
like dehumanizing all of our emotions that we all carry.
(57:18):
And you know, one of my sort of mantras or
ways of teaching and working with women in how to
look after ourselves to care for the collective is, you know,
how do we just uncomplicate it? You know, just go
back to what we have always known, that that stillness,
and you're right, like just being with it, sitting in it,
(57:42):
not having to have the answers. I think so much
of this Western way of looking after yourself is actually
doing It's like you've got to go here, You've got
to do this, You've got to It's just like uncomplicating it.
How do we just be with it? How do we
just sit in it? And so I want to you know,
my last question and kind of circle back to your
first point, which is, I mean, obviously I could talk
(58:03):
to you all day, by the way, but I'm conscious
that you've got, you know, your own responsibilities. You know,
how can we truly truly show up for ourselves and
love and care for ourselves as black women, and show
ourselves that grace and compassion that we so freely give
out to others. What does it look like for you personally?
(58:24):
How do you find time to nurtureself in all of this?
Speaker 4 (58:28):
Ah?
Speaker 1 (58:28):
Yep, So I guess when I am vulnerable, I do
I do look at myself like that little girl that's crying.
You know, siss if you were to see a little
girl crying, a little two year old crying in the
street and alone, what would you do. What's the first
thing you would do for that little girl?
Speaker 2 (58:46):
Check in, go, give a hug, check their rye.
Speaker 4 (58:50):
That's right. You would hold her tied and just reassure
her that she's safe.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
And so that I'm feeling vulnerable, I hold on to
myself that little girl inside of me and say, you
know what, you are safe, Sis, it's okay, and comfort her.
That's where I start. That's where I start that you know,
now that I am a grown up, now that I
(59:15):
am in this big world, I take myself from the
business and I go and sit and be still with mother.
I go to the river, or I go to a
space that's in the bush, or even if you're in
the city, you can go to a park and take
your shoes off and plant your feet in mother, you know,
(59:36):
wiggle your toes in mother and give her everything. That's
what she's therefore give her, give her all of those
things that you're carrying, because she will take them. So yes,
I go and be in nature when I can. Like
I said, for those that don't have the luxury of
(59:56):
being in the bush like me, go to a park,
Go put your feet in that dirt and give mother
your worries. Let mother comfort you and see yourself as
that little person. Then comfort yourself. But yeah, that you know,
that's what I do.
Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
Sis.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
It's such a beautiful thing to share because you're right
inside of us, is yeah, our inner children. I often
think about that. There's probably an angry teenager in there,
there's all these different shadows and parts and how do
we extend it love, and how do we find time
to do that by you know when we say connecting
(01:00:38):
on country, Country is available everywhere, and we can show
it love and tenderness and be gentle and patient with
it at any time. Yeah, gosh, you are just yeah,
a formidable worrier, mother, sister, cultural woman. And yeah, I
(01:01:01):
actually feel even just sitting in this conversation with you,
I feel a sense of calmness which has come over
me from your presence. So I just want to say
thank you for that and for offering up glimmers of
your personal story and in sharing it for other women
and mothers who were thinking about birthing on country. But
(01:01:21):
also more importantly, the take home for me is just
how do we build in a bit of time to
get more intentional with ourselves and to begin to trust
and love ourselves and honor our knowing, value our knowing,
create space for our knowing, and take action on our
(01:01:42):
knowing too.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, welcome sissy, And you know, I
just I just want to touch again. Like there aren't books, No,
it's written in our DNA, It's imprinted you know, listen
and read it from within there, and we all carry
(01:02:04):
it as you know, First Nations people, Black followers, we have.
Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
It written in our day. Yeah, look inside yourself and
read the story. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Wow, you're right. We've got this ancient sacred compass and
our ancestors are always guiding. I think we I think
we all sort of fall into the wire of our
proximity to whiteness and our proximity to white systems and ways.
(01:02:38):
But it's returning, it's returning back, and I think we're
all sort of going through this shifting of consciousness and
ideas and stories like this and aboriginal knowledge is what
is going to set us all free in a way,
you know. So Yeah, I can't thank you enough. I
(01:02:59):
feel like I could sit here and talk to you
for hours. I just want to say, from the bottom
of my heart, thank you so much for being so
generous and sharing. And it would be lovely to have
you back on to continue this yarn at some stage.
Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Oh look, Sissy, you're welcome, like big love to you. Hey,
And yeah, I could talk all day two, trust me,
I never shut up. But you know what, that's why
I walk this world. I'm a voice and you know,
I possess a voice that demands attention and I will
continue to do that. And you know, I hope that
(01:03:36):
you know, once my voice is heard, it gives other
women the power to have also a voice that demands
attention and to be heard. And so thanks for holding
this space, Sissy and invited me on. And whenever you
want a yarn, reach out, and whenever you want me
back on here, reach out. And you know, if I'm
more about there, I want to have yarns about certain topics,
(01:03:57):
reach out to Caroline, Sissy girl there, and you know
we'll make it happen.
Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely I would love to. I would
love I know, I know our paths will cross formally
and informally, and yeah, I'll definitely be hitting you up
for a yarn or two as I navigate this journey.
But just yeah, I would love to open up a
space when it felt right to be able to have
(01:04:22):
these yarns with you, because yeah, we're really returning back
to and yeah, I'm so grateful for your knowledge and
time today and your love and energy, like it's just beautiful.
So thank you, Sis, thank you so much for listening.
You mob if you are vibing this season of yarning up,
then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
(01:04:44):
get your podcasts from to show us some love, rate,
and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give
us some feedback by visiting www. Dot carolinecow dot com,
dot au bo
This podcast is brought to you by on Track Studio.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to Yanni Up, the podcast that showcases First Nations
stories and conversations to help us learn and unlearn Australia's
history to work towards a better future. I'm your host,
proud barber woman and founder of Black Waddel Coaching and Consulting,
(00:30):
Caroline cow. We acknowledge the rundery people and elders where
this podcast is taped, but we also acknowledge the lands
that you are listening in from today. It always was
and always will be unseated Aboriginal and tourist Red Islander Land.
(00:54):
It's a beautiful sunny day. The birth of Nullah is
being met with family, beautiful coastline country. Teacher's surrounded by
(01:16):
her loved ones. Husband is not.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Far, he is on hand, the kids, They're all part
of this journey too. Teach and the mob are preparing
the coolermen and the postma skin ready for Nullah's arrival.
(01:45):
There smoke billowing, I can almost smell it. Two nurses
and health workers are insight an tishe lysis, her body,
(02:07):
her archetype, her ancestors. They've been here before.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Well, I had the absolute pleasure of meeting this incredible
sister at a recent mother daughter retreat that we along
with Leekouch and Britt and yourself kind of co collaborated on,
which was a really special retreat with mothers and daughters
(02:45):
down at Hepburn's Springs. And you know, it's funny when
you meet people, I always call them sunshine people because
they just emanate this ease and this light and this love.
And I I think that's precisely how I would define
my next guest teacher a sunshine person. Tita wears many
(03:07):
hats in community, a mother, a cultural woman, adult jar
program counsel at aubrew Wodonga Health Service. Shout out to
those mobs who are doing incredible things for community. But
today we're going to unpack I guess the most the
most sacred role of all motherhood and Tita's incredible journey
(03:31):
to motherhood at that. So I want to start by
saying thank you so much for joining me today. Welcome
Tianni Up. It's a really it's a delight to have
you here today.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Sis.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Oh, thanks for having me Sis, And yes, I would
say that you're a sunshine person as well. It was
a pleasure and honor to make that connection with you,
Sissy at that camp, and I look forward to our
many years together on a journey. So yeah, oldest oldest
introduced myself some mye names Tsha, Maximo McGuinness just recently married,
(04:05):
so now missus toy. I'm a proud radri Yuan woman
and my connections are from the country, the river people
of Brangle and extends over the mountains into Reck Bay,
the South mob Yuan nation. So yes, a bit of
bit of fresh water and a bit of salt water
(04:25):
in me. And yeah, proud mother of four beautiful children,
and yeah, I would I would classify myself as the
matriarch of my family and then my lines as well.
So yes, thanks for having me, Sissy, and they're having
this space for me to come and yearn.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
No, thank you, siss, thank you so much. And yeah,
multi clan woman with your with your boras there. You know,
the retreat that we had was just so special, hay around, yes,
centering the ex experiences of Aboriginal women as mothers, as granddaughters,
(05:05):
and we had young warriors and elders and matriarchs all
coming together. And I know that you were a real
driving force behind that. And yeah, I'm not surprised that
you have gone on to share your experiences of being
a mom and bringing women and mums together in that
(05:26):
really special way. So yeah, thank you and thank you
for sharing a bit about your story. I wonder, you know,
can you tell me a little bit more maybe about
your your personal story and what it was like growing
up for you. Yeah, keen to hear a bit more
if I can.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:46):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
So I'm the oldest sibling of eleven.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
Wow, I grew up in a home.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
With two younger siblings, so yeah, my mom's had the
three of us, but I'm the oldest from my father,
I guess I matured quite young as a child and
grew up before my time. So the responsibility and the
roles of the oldest child is an expectation that you
carry from when you're quite young, and as the female,
(06:17):
there's an added pressure and an added expectation of you
to take care. So I've been taking care of family
and the younger siblings from quite a young age. Beautiful childhood.
It carries a lot of trauma. We all carry trauma,
we all carry experiences, but those experiences and the trauma
(06:38):
that I carry, you know, has really shaped me into
the woman. So I'm glad I've had those experience and
I've had those lessons and those traumatic times because they've
really shaped me and grown me and strengthened me as
the woman that I am today. But yet grew up
with a single mother dad in and out of life.
But you know, shout out to dad. He is who
(06:58):
he is, and he only knows what he is ever known,
love him dearly, have a great relationship with him now.
But yeah, just when we grow up in those homes
and those situations where our parents you know, did the
best that they could do, but you know, still pass
on those experiences. Yeah, I understand their situation, but I
(07:20):
also you know, going into that retreat, why I wanted
to be a part of it was because I was
carrying a mother wound and I you know, throughout my experiences,
you know, and throughout my healing journey, there's still that
open wound there that you never really can really get
to because as women, we just carry on and we
(07:42):
keep going. And so to take my oldest daughter into
that experience and help her heal some of those wounds
that she's carrying, some of those some of those traumas
that I'd passed on her.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Or created for her.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
So to step into that space together and together heal
my mother wounds and her mother wounds, and heal our
wounds together. You know, it was really beautiful space and
it was amazing. And I guess to extend on that
upbringing sis, you know, carrying those experiences has driven me
(08:14):
to be passionate and to step into this role into
community to help other women become stronger and heal. And
I don't think it's about women finding who they are again.
I think it's about a journey of finding who you
are right now, because we're never going to be who
we were yesterday, and we don't want to be that
(08:35):
woman we were yesterday because every day we wake up,
we've grown, we've learned, and we've had an experience. And
so yeah, it's about knowing who you are in that moment,
in that day. And yeah, so you know, all of
everything that I've been through an experience has shaped me
to who I am today. And now I'm just in
(08:56):
full give back mode. You know, there's I often say
to my daughter, to myself and to the people I love,
all the people that you know need to hear. It
is when we can when we can use the weight
of our burdens cis as the anchor of our strength,
will become unstoppable. And so I've managed to channel the
(09:18):
weight of my burdens into the anchor of my strength.
And now I'm just thriving and leading in this space
and being that being that role model, and being that
woman that I need to be for my people, my children,
my family.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, gosh, that's so powerful, you know, the weight of
my burdens into the anchor of my strengths. And you know,
I think this is the most beautiful thing about Black followers.
I mean, there's so many we could be here for hours,
but just our ability to hold multiple truths at the
same time. And you're right, like so many of us
(09:55):
came from dysfunction and trauma. And it's certainly something that
has been coming up for me a lot lately in
thinking about becoming a mother myself. I actually haven't been
really open. This is probably the first time I've even
spoken about this on the podcast. That Yeah, my partner
and I have been on a fertility journey for the
(10:17):
last year and a half now, and yeah, like it's
just it's not happening the way that it should or
the way that we're designed or told to. But yeah,
that that mother wound and that ability to repairent ourselves
as well and then become the parent is something that
(10:41):
if I'm being really honest, I certainly wasn't going to
start off diving into this, but I think we have
to go there. But yeah, just like this sense of
dread and guilt and shame and worry that I'm not
going to be a good mother because of the mother wound,
and I've been really doing a lot of work in
(11:01):
thinking about how do we hold on to the two truths.
I mean similarly to usis, you know, when I look
back at my childhood, and we're all so unique, We've
all got such different experiences. So I don't know what
your experience was like, fully, but I feel the essence
of what you're saying, And yeah, like mum was, yeah,
(11:23):
lots of alcohol, lots of mental health issues, lots of violence,
lots of sexual violence, and you know, and we were
sort of, yeah, lived our lives without having really attentive caregivers.
And now I guess I still look back still with
such fondness and such love and generosity and hope and
(11:46):
think wow, like they did the best they could with
the tools they've got. They didn't get everything wrong because
we turned out okay ish today anyway. But yeah, so
that mother wound has been something that's definitely plagued me.
And so maybe you know, if I could, maybe we
could unpack that a little bit. You know, you've got
four beautiful children. I mean, how how have you navigated
(12:10):
that in becoming the mother and the person that you
are and will continue to become. Because I think we
need to explore Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, we do explore. We do need to explore it,
and I guess we do need to go there. And
I've got it more. You know, I've got it wrong
more times than I've got it right. But it's about acknowledging,
you know, the steps we take wrong. Acknowledging you know
that it's okay to make the mistakes, and that there
(12:41):
is no handbook, and that every day you wake up,
it doesn't matter how many kids you got, it doesn't
matter how many how many years you've been a mother.
Every day is a new day, right, something new pops
up some and you just you just take it as
it comes, like there's no there's no preparation, sis, there's
no set way to do things. You just literally wake
(13:04):
up and do the best you can with the tools
that you have each every and every day, and that
that's that's just it, Like there's no there's there's no
way of doing it right. You know, there's the Western way,
the things, the box ticking, but you know that's unrealistic
for anyone.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Any human being. We're all humans. We all are.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Just navigating this world however best we can. But yeah,
all I all I can do is reflect on, you know,
the experiences that we've had, reflect on the mothering that
I that I have, the mother that I have been,
and just try and be better every single day, try
(13:49):
and do better every single day, and try and be
the best version of myself every single day so that
my children have one hundred percent me full I guess,
a full you know, tuned in mother, authentic mother, that's
just you know, doing the best she can but leading
(14:13):
her children.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
In this world.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So yeah, there's no you know, you can prepare for
years and years.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
This yeah, and then you it's just so it's like
the thing that is just so out of your control, really,
isn't It is all the variables everything from each stage
from preparing for to fall pregnant, to falling pregnant, to
the labor to you know what, personality and characteristics your child.
(14:42):
It's just, you know, there really is no such thing
as a perfect plan. But you know, the modern world,
the Western eurocentric view of assumes that you know, the
mother has to be the expert and know everything and
do it on their own and kn't aarks for help.
And it just takes us so far away from how
(15:04):
we as Black fellows understand families and village and community
working together.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Hey it is and you know what, like this is
probably a really controversial statement, We're going to say it anyways,
just you know, complimenting what you just said, you know,
the Western way and what we should be doing.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
And I'll tell.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
You the rarest truth I can give you is that
you know, as a parent, as a mother especially, we
have to put ourselves first unselfishly and to getting in
that space and do to allow yourself to put yourself
(15:43):
first in an unselfish way, right because all we've ever
known as our mother or our father. I'll speak for myself.
My mother's always put herself first unconsciously, but in a
selfish way. So it's about recognizing those behavior is that
I've watched, recognizing myself and now putting myself first, unselfishly
(16:06):
to be the best version of my children. So if
I'm not well, if I'm not right, if I'm not
in tuned with myself one hundred percent, how can I
ever be what my babies need me to be?
Speaker 4 (16:16):
And that's the truth.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
There's an expectation that the mother has to put the
children first and put their needs first and cater to
their needs and to the needs of her husband and
her community and her family. But no, and that's where
we're getting it wrong. We have to put ourselves first
in that unselfish way and be the best version of
ourselves for ourselves first, so then our babies can get
(16:40):
the best of us and the best from us.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah, it's such a it's such a simple but such
a powerful thing that you're just saying, which is Yeah,
I think if you neglect self, and you don't and
you fall out of love with self, or your fall
out of being present with self, or you abandon yourself,
then how on earth can you be attentive and present
(17:07):
to the things that are happening in your life and
especially your children. Yeah, I think I'd love to if
we can, I would love to unpack that a little
bit further because I know that so many mums and
especially black women who listening listening to the show, who
you know, are constantly providing feedback around how do I
say no when the world, the colony, my family, the
(17:29):
community just demands so so much from us. So I
wonder if we can park that and come back to it,
because I know that's something that we are all experiencing.
But let's kind of open up with a little bit
around your birthing experience on Country. And I said to
Tisha before we started recording that if I can get
(17:50):
through this without crying around which I have no problems in,
I am pro tears, but just so that I can
continue to speak, because you have generously shared a clip
with me of you giving birth on Country, it is
a beautiful, like all inspiring. I don't even know if
(18:12):
there's really English words. I thought, I wish, I wish
I had language in some of my own tongue and
not the colonizer's tongue to describe it. Because all I
can all I can sort of say about the video
is that. It's this beautiful thirteen minute clip of T
Shirt giving birth on Country She is, it's a beautiful
(18:32):
sunny day. They're down near the water, near the coast line.
You know, children and helpers and healers and Marmott sounds like,
is there. Mum's rooting for you throughout it, and yeah,
very attentive. Now Hubby is right there with you the
(18:53):
entire every breath that you took, he was there, you know,
seeing I'm getting chills.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
And I'm getting teary.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Ah it is Yeah, I cried multiple times. I cried
after it. It just transcends life in all of its beauty.
Before I go to just kind of talking about the experience,
you know, me being at this moment, I guess a
(19:21):
non biological mother. I went and did some googling before
this to look at, you know, birthing practices, and I
got met with this article which spoke about everything you
need to know about birthing basically since birthing began, and
it started approximately five hundred years ago. And I just
(19:43):
want to read through a couple of these things, and
I want to just kind of circle back to, you know,
how we as indigenous people have come at birth. So
the article starts in the fifteen hundreds and it just
talks about European women, you know, it doesn't have any
no other people of color or anything being mentioned. You know,
(20:05):
fifteen ninety one it talks about a Scottish woman being
burned at the stake fasting for pain relief. It goes
on to talk about ride up until the seventies, you know,
fathers were finally allowed to stay with their parent, with
their partner during the labor nineteen eighties is really when
home birth and birthing centers were finally considered a part
(20:30):
of the way that women have already given birth. And
I was just truly blown away that, Yeah, we couldn't
I couldn't find anything about black women, about ancient practices,
about you know, the ways that Aboriginal indigenous people have
been giving birth for thousands of years. They have had
(20:52):
you know, rituals and ceremonies around labor and birth and
postpartum periods, and so yeah, I was just I was
in I was not surprised, but it just goes to
show that, you know, colonization is is really interwoven into
every single tapestry, even you know, women and mothers' first experiences.
(21:20):
So with that, I want to just sort of say,
can you share with me a little bit around you know,
just birthing on country generally, you know, what, what's your
knowledge of how birthing on country practices have come to be?
Because I'd really like to go back to this. You know,
(21:41):
before colonization, we were we were doing this as an
uninterrupted practice for so long, and it just seems that
there's so much written knowledge I guess missing about this.
And as more and more women are thinking about this
as a process and practice, you know, where do we
find information about this?
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Look, and that's a good question, And unfortunately I don't
have the answer for you. You know, I guess on colonization,
a lot of our ways and our practices have been
taken from us and haven't been returned to us. That
knowledge has been lost, you know, not written down, not
(22:24):
not found. But I just want to highlight the fact
that the knowledge is in our dnasis, the books, written
inside of our makeup.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
Right.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
And so it wasn't it wasn't. It wasn't a matter
where I've gone and sought out that information or that
advice from the aunties, because unfortunately, those generations, they're not
carrying it. And that's not everyone, that's that's the majority.
You know, some some women have law knowledge around birthing
and stuff, but unfortunately for me, I don't have those
(22:56):
women in my life, and so I relied solely on
that imprinted DNA that I carry, knowing and listening to myself,
listening the country, listening to you know, my ancestors, and
being guided to that space.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
I just found my way.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
There and knew that it was the right thing for
me to do, and not only the right thing for
me to do, but the right thing for me to
show the way and to bring that story back without
having it written in a book, you know, showing women
that this is what we've done. And it obviously is
what we've done because it happened so naturally and so normal,
(23:35):
and yeah, it hurt a little bit, but nothing like
the pain I experienced in a hospital system when I
birthed my first children, and so yeah, I just want
to highlight again that it's information that's imprinted into our DNA.
We hold, we hold the knowledge, we hold that space
(23:56):
and it's imprinted in us, and so listen, being aware
of yourself, knowing yourself and knowing that the strength you
carry isn't just your strength, but the strength of all
those ancestors and those people that came before you.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
What a beautiful way to reframe my colonized mindset really
in thinking about this in giving birth, I think it's
a reminder how important language is. And you're right, it's
something our bodies have been doing since we existed. It's
something we've had practice around, you know, as women's business
(24:36):
since millennia. And so it comes back to that inner
knowing and finding that time to get clear and check in, listen,
you know, listen to yourself, value, your own knowing.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and listening to that deep spring that's
within us, allowing that deep spring to bubble and grow.
And right if that deep spring within us that we
carry is flowing and you know we're listening to it
and we're being guided, then you know there's no interruptions,
(25:14):
there's no outside negative influence. We're just fully in tune
with ourselves and our mother. And I'm talking about you know,
Mother Earth here, and you know, if we can maintain
that connection as an individual with Mother, then we become
the greatest mothers.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
So yeah, well, it's powerful.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Gosh, I could listen to you ya see what I
was saying before about sometime person how you're just one
of those people that is just so powerful and I'm
hanging off of every single word. It's not really great
for a podcast, but my mouth is just like in awe.
I mean, let's think about that. I guess, like connection
with mother and your connection with mother. You know, you
(25:56):
gave birth to your second child, Nullah on Country and
Beautiful Clip.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Their child, third child.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, I wonder if you can walk us through the
process and the day. Like, firstly, I mean very keen
to hear about what led you to give birth to
baby number three, Nullah on Country, And I'm wondering if
you could kind of walk us through through the through
the process and the day and how it went for you.
(26:29):
And yeah, if you could kind of help us understand
this this process that you went through.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Yeah. Look, it's a massive journey and it was a
massive journey Sist that started well before even you know,
thoughts about creating him. You know, I walked away from
an extremely violent, volatile relationship that I found myself in,
you know, that pattern for a good ten years, and
(26:59):
I found my twin flame. From the moment Marcus and
I met, I knew that, you know, we're meant to
be together. And you know, there were there were dreams
with our old people talking and discussing us, and it
was it was crazy. And then you know the next
step of that relationship was, you know, to create, to
(27:22):
create another part of our love in in a little person.
And so you know, we were decided, yeah, we both
coming too this relationship. We both have two children each
from our previous relationships, and we wanted to you know,
share our love together and create create a child from
(27:42):
just the most purest form of love. And you know,
a lot of people and our one created children previously
to fix something or to fill a hole that or
to or to mend a wound that I was carrying.
I wasn't creating children to create them from pure love.
(28:04):
And and that's that's the that's the reality, and that's
that's the raw truth of my story. And so we
decided that, you know, we would create Nullah. And we
we lost the child before we created Nullah. And you know,
through that healing journey and through understanding you know, lost, we.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Were gifted Nullah.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
And so you know, experiencing the loss of that first pregnancy,
knowing that I was creating a child out of the
purest form of love.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
It really it was really heavy.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
And so you know, I was like, you know what,
I've been gifted this fellow. I'm going to do everything
proper ways. I'm not going to listen to mainstream and
do the mediocre. This is how you got to do stuff.
I was like, I'm going to go back to grassroots.
My people have been here since the beginning.
Speaker 4 (29:01):
I'm going to go back to their ways.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I like you, tried to study, tried to find out,
reached out to many people, just trying to be like
where do I go, how do I do this?
Speaker 4 (29:14):
What do I do?
Speaker 1 (29:15):
And you know, six months into that pregnancy, I was like, woman,
you know what you have to do. It's in your DNA,
you know, listen, listen to yourself, listen to your old people,
trust yourself. And so yeah, I reached out after googling
so much, to an aboriginal midwife up the North Coast
(29:38):
and she was doing ceremony out on country with mothers
who have just birthed, and I was like, Sis, I'm
going to birth back out on country.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Can can you support me.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I was like, because at the end of the day,
when I'm at that point where I'm going to where
I'm in labor, I'm going to go down the river
and it was going to sit under a tree and
I'm going to do it anyways, but I thought I'd
reach out first just to have that sister support, you know,
that matriarchal support, because it's a space.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
That women carry together.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
And she's like, Sis, I haven't done it, but I
know we can do it, and I can't have you,
with my Western medical background go out and sit under
a tree and do it by myself. So I drove
up to Nara, I met with her and she said,
doesn't matter what I say, You're going to do it.
(30:33):
And I can see. I can see the strength that
you carry and the wheel power. So yeah, she jumped
on board. Reached out to some home birthing midwives who
have been you know, in that space and holding that
space for many years. They currently have a campaign running
(30:54):
across the country and they come from birth Time Australia.
So yeah, they were amazing women. They came down, they
supported me, and I guess manage the Western risks right
managed the box ticking the medical side of it, because
you know, that's just the world we live in now.
(31:15):
We walk in those two worlds and we have to,
we have to by law, follow that way. And so,
you know, Marcus and I going into that space knew
that you know, this is this is how messed up
it was that we had to acknowledge the fact that
if anything went wrong, that.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
We were responsible.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
If our child had a medical emergency or did pass
away during that process, that you know, we would be
held accountable. And you know what, we owned that and
took that responsibility straight on our shoulders because we knew
at the end of the day we were doing the
right thing, and we had over sixty thousand years worth
of women before us that did the same thing. And
(32:01):
so yeah, I guess I went up and stayed out
on country for a couple months before birthing son, and
I guess a week before my due date, all the
midwives average and midwife and the two home birthing midwives
came down and met me and said we did little
(32:21):
ceremony and kind of cleansedale spirits as a united force, right,
and then we went out on country out to the
National Park where our birth son the week before.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
It was about I don't know, midday, and.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I was like, this is I was just drawn to
a spot where the fresh water rolled into the ocean.
Remember I said previously that's what I made of freshwater
and ocean people. So it was a magnificant spot. It
was a spot that resonated with me because of the
history and the family lineage that I carry. I said,
(33:00):
I'm going to birth under this tree. The Sun's going
to be right there where it is in the sky. Now,
it's going to be a beautiful day surrounded by you know,
just just that pure peace.
Speaker 4 (33:12):
And that love and that unity.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I can imagine that on that day animals are going
to come out of the bush and witness this experience.
I'm going to have him and then go home, right
They're like, yeah, all right, we'll see yep. Anyways, a
week later, went into labor, went out to the spot.
It was the exact same time of day, beautiful day,
(33:38):
beautiful space. All the animals were coming out and watching
me during that labor and as you can see and
as you have seen on the video, those animals did
come out and surrounded me and obviously you know that's
them old people coming and watching and watching their dreams
that they had for us come true in that moment.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
And I tell you what's this. It was a hectic pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
All I had was you know, push back and negativity
and you can't and you won't, and this is what
you're going to create and you're going.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
To kill your child and this, this, this, this.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
And that, and I just like acknowledged it. I accepted
that those people are those people and they are who
they are, and I understood that their way of thinking
was a trained way of thinking, and fully respected everything
that was said to me, but knew that I knew
(34:33):
what I was doing and that I was capable to
do what I what I did and what I achieved,
And I guess the greatest part about it was, yes,
you know, in a Western system where mothers are pregnant
and giving birth, that the husbands and the children are
excluded from that experience. At the moment that you say
you're pregnant, children aren't invited.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
To those.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Visits with the doctor. Children are part of those. And
then we have a child and bring this new child
home and say, okay, you kids, now love this creature
that's just taken your mother away from you, so to
have the children part of that process and a part
of that experience. You know that that was what it
was all about for me to show my daughter the
(35:20):
power that we possess as black women. To show my
daughter that with all the pushback in the world, that
you could do what you want to do if you're
willing to put in you know, the work and back yourself,
to show her that you are not constrained by the
systems that hold us and suppress us, that you can
achieve and your mother's here to do it for you
(35:44):
and every other woman to know that, yeah, you possess
the power. No one else can hold or take away
your power unless you allow them.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Wow, Oh my god, I've got so so many thought
and feelings running through my mostly feelings. It's it's, it's
it's a deeply spiritual and emotional conversation this because I mean,
just the belief that you had and that knowing and
that fire, and that you and Marcus were so united
(36:15):
in what you wanted as sovereign, sacred you know, ancestral people.
Because you're right, like what you said about their going
back to the conditioning, and you know, when we're looking
at decolonizing health. It's returning back to practice that have
sustained us but that are just not valued by Western science.
(36:37):
And so you know you held that belief and that vision.
I mean, I've got a couple of clarifying questions just
to go back for the listeners. So when you made
that decision, you know, six months during the process were
and so you had to source out your own support.
You know at that stage, what did what we met
(36:58):
with in the in the healthcare system? Did you have
to do this all on your own? Were you supported?
Was there anyone else kind of you know, yeah, I
wonder what you had to sort of go through to
actually yeah, birth on country? And then what do you
think when the second kind of question is that is like,
(37:18):
what do we need to see changing in this system
to make this a bit more accessible and more supported
and more guided.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Okay, so the so the first part of your question,
I made the decision to birth on country before I
even conceived Nullah. The reference to six months in was
I was doubting myself for the first six months because
of the pushback and the I guess the nose from
(37:47):
the Western system. So I did have the support. So
I work at the AMS here in my community, and
you know, being attending this ams, they know me, the
doctors know me. I spoke to my you know, obstetrician
who works at the service, and was like, you know what, this.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Is what I'm going to do.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
It's it's not even it's not even a matter of
I'm wanting to do it. I'm needing to do this
or for for.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
My women, for my daughter.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
And from the start he was he was like, there's
there's no way. And I was like, what do you
mean there's no way, Like I wouldn't be here right
now if all the women before me didn't didn't.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Hold that space right And he's like it's not possible.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
And I was like, the more you tell me no, mate,
the more I'm going to go and do it. And
so I was like, you know what, Marcus. You know
there's a massive birthing tree on the river down in
like down at town here. I was like, literally on
the other side of the hill is the hospital.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
I was like, we'll just.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Go down there. I'm just going to do my thing.
If anything happens, babe, just ring the ambulance because it's
literally a two second drive over the Hill. I told
the doctors that, you know, this is what I was
going to do. And so yeah, just the constant pushback
and just the constant knows And it was, you know,
(39:18):
this aboriginal midwife that's been practicing for a while in
the hospitals and holding that safe cultural space for women
in the Western hospital system. I reached out to her.
I knew she was, you know, fundraising, trying to get
money together to create an Aboriginal women's birthing space up
on her on Country, back on you and Country. So
(39:40):
I just reached out and said, cis this is what
I need to do. Can you support me?
Speaker 4 (39:45):
Like I want? I need support.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
I was like, I'm going to do it either way.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
I was like, but I want that.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Cultural safety and that support that I know you can provided.
I haven't just been led to you for no reason.
You know, I'm listening and you've come into my life
and I need you in that space. I need you
to hold be that container for me during that during
that time. And she just said, yeah, like I have
to listen as well, and that's us Like it's that,
(40:15):
like I said, that listening to what you're being told,
being so in tuned with yourself, that you are fully
connected to mother and the instructions that you receive, you're
hearing without even doing.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
So.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Yeah, just being one hundred percent confident in who I
am and where I come from. It was it was
going to happen this, Like I don't know how to
explain it. I just there was a bigger driving force
behind it than my will power. And like I said,
I truly believe it. It's the strength of those old
people that I carry, pushing me and getting me. And
(40:55):
you know, we're all walking and living the dreams that
they had for us. And that's just another dream that
they had that that practice and those ways would continue on.
And you know that's me rewriting that story for now.
So yeah, I don't know say about that. I just
(41:17):
it still blows me away, you know, it still puts
me in puts me in this place of just being
in awe and not of myself, but what I was
able to, what I was able to do, you know,
And like I said, it wasn't even about me. It
was about those future generations and those young girls that have.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
All the control and all that power.
Speaker 1 (41:42):
Taken from them in that birthing and pregnancy space from
the beginning of even thinking about creating your own family.
You know, you're just so influenced and it's such a
fear based system that works perfectly.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, it kind of just it's just a beautiful reminder.
It makes me wonder about what would be possible for
us if we spent more time doing what you said
earlier about nurturing self, to get that sense of clarity,
to trust ourselves and to build self trust and self
(42:20):
compassion as black people and black followers. Just kind of
makes you think what else is possible if we get
clear with ourselves and allow that space for our ancestors
to just be there. You know, I often call and
speak to them in a time of crisis instead of
just being with them and guiding and so just yeah,
(42:41):
for me, it's just a stark reminder of how do
we get more in tune and more into that space?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Look sis in one hundred percent, and you know, for
this story to be successful, you know, for other women
in this today, you know, I could justify to that
I had Nullah.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
I did it on country.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
I've shared that experience after Nullah, I had another child,
and I took my experience and my space that I
had out on country into the hospital system and had
an even more glorious birth because I walked into that
Western system carrying all the strength, all the control, and
all the power and birth on birth my way in
(43:26):
that space, in full control and made that Western system
sit and be quite why I held that space for
myself with my family, and I guess you're if you're
confident in enough in yourself and believe in yourself enough
and know yourself that you can take a birth in
(43:47):
your country experience in the any setting and own that space.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Yeah, Oh, that's so powerful, so powerful to hear, because
you're right, like I think the healthcare system generally, in
all the work that we do in looking at racism
in hospitals and especially the female gendered experience, is that
you know, healthcare systems are the only place where it's
(44:12):
about speed and efficiency. It's not a deep, it's not
a intentional loving black pro black space. And so yeah,
to hear you have gone through this kind of transformative experience,
bring all of that power, all of that strength, all
of that beauty, all of that knowledge back into the
(44:35):
healthcare system to reclaim it and that it's on your
terms is truly powerful and there's probably a lot of women,
you know, not just black followers or sisters that you know,
do you just have their rights taken away, especially when
giving birth. And so how do we make this process
more person centered and more individualized for the individual to decide,
(44:57):
because there's no one way, there's no blanket rule approach.
But it seems as though when women go in for
these these for labor and leading up to labor, we're
just kind of conditioned, indoctrinated, or led to believe that
this is the blueprint, this is how it has to
be done, and if we deviate from that, that we're
(45:19):
not doing it right. So yeah, I love I love
hearing this yard and speaking truth to power here and that, Yeah,
what a reminder for all people who are experiencing this
to really, like you say, just trust yourself.
Speaker 4 (45:33):
Trust yourself.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah, And I think in the process of life, since
we forget to be still, and that's the number one
right you need to sit, be still and listen, and
in the birthing space, the exact same sit and be still,
listen and then carry that confidence with you. You know,
it's such a fear driven space and that comes down
(46:00):
to once again that colonization that control. If you can,
if you can manage to get in tune with yourself
and really listen and know and be confident in the
fact that you can do it. Your body is designed
and mechanically to do this, you know, without any issues,
and carry that that strength. Yeah, reach out to reach
(46:22):
out to women who have had great experiences. You know,
we always hear about the horror stories and what goes
wrong and and how horrible this pregnancy was and how
sick I was in this pregnancy. But you know, where's
the talk up and the build up from the sisters saying, well,
you know, I had a great experience during this pregnancy
(46:42):
or you know what, I walked into that space and
I birth so calmly, like, where are the build up stories?
Where are the sisters picking up other sisters and you know,
really cheering on other sister girls for wins, not just
that you know, sharing that trauma and sharing those those
negative stories build each other up. And the only way
(47:04):
around it is to do it for ourselves. This mom
know how to take care of moment. It's time that
we do. We're not in competition with one another. Share
the beauty of sisterhood with one another because it's the
way forward for our sister girls, right.
Speaker 2 (47:20):
Absolutely, and just how grateful we are for you sharing
this story is a very personal and sacred one, but
really helping us all understand, like you say, what we've
always known and what we've always done, and just the
power of the gift and the medicine that is your
story and sharing this for other women is really really special.
(47:44):
So I thank you so much. I mean, can I
ask you, maybe this is a selfish question because of
where I'm at in my journey the labor process. I mean,
I don't obviously I know that that clip is a
thirteen minute clip and that wasn't the full labor experience,
but the poise and the grace and you know, you
(48:05):
were one there with your breath, and you know, it
seems to me that, yeah, watching you just do what
your body had to be done because you had that
sense of expansiveness of knowing and being okay in your skin,
I mean, was truly something so powerful to watch. But
if we flip to motherhood and post labor, you know,
(48:27):
I'd really like to know, you know, what what aspects
of motherhood do you find the most fulfilling and you know,
how has it challenged and shaped you as well? Like
what has been the sort of what lessons has becoming
a mother meant for you?
Speaker 4 (48:45):
Yeah? Look, I guess I'll start with the biggest lesson is.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
I guess being programmed in my upbringing that the children
you love, the children the same, They all get the same,
there's no favoritism. But you know, it's taken me. My
oldest is fifteen and a half, and it's taken me,
you know, the last fourteen years. About a year ago
I realized that every child that you have has their
(49:15):
own individual personality, has their own you know, love needs,
has their own individual needs and connection needs with you
as a mother, And so listening to your child, picking
up on the cues and being present in their needs
and providing that space with each child as an individual,
(49:36):
not as a collective, would be the biggest lesson I've
learned this. Prior to that understanding, I was loving them
the same. I was giving them the same amount of time.
I was, you know, giving them the same amount of presents,
or giving them the same amount of whatever it was,
and not even acknowledging the fact that this child needs
(49:59):
this from and this child needs this from me and
asking them. You know, I did a great activity probe
year ago with the older children and it was that
simple love languages quiz on the Internet and I all
have devices. Sit down, new followers, let's sit down as
a family on our phones and let's do the love
(50:20):
languages quiz. And we sat there and Marcus did it.
I did it, and both Lailah and Zeke did it.
And wow, like I thought, I knew my kids, man,
and I was loving them completely wrong, and I was
loving them selfishly right.
Speaker 4 (50:35):
I was loving them the way I wanted to love them.
I was loving them.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
The way that I didn't receive love when I was
that age, or what I wanted at that age, and
not even considering them as their own, authentic little self
and what needs they needed from me. And that love
Languages quiz was amazing. Man, It just wow, blew my
head off, like just hag them completely wrong. But I
(51:00):
was coming at that angle of that selfish love right,
that unconscious, selfish, selfish love, fulfilling those needs that I
had within myself, healing those wounds within myself about and
loving them the way I wanted and what I missed
out on without acknowledging them as their own people. I
(51:20):
think the greatest the greatest advice again is when you're
a parent, is that deep listening again, listen to your child,
be present, watch behaviors. We never spoke, We didn't speak.
It was all visual. We didn't need to communicate verbally
because you know, our body language and what we did
(51:44):
was the way we communicated. And children are so raw
and real and they really show us the old ways,
right they in their behavior, in the way they act,
in the way that they seek love. And so yeah,
just be present and listening again. It comes down to
that deep listening. And I'll keep talking about it because
(52:06):
that is truly what we don't do anymore. We're so
busy and lost in work and the technology and the devices,
and you know, we're listening with our eyes twenty four
to seven. But we need to stop and peel back
and listen deeply within ourselves and you know, use our
(52:26):
ears truly.
Speaker 4 (52:28):
Yeah. I don't know if I answered all of that question,
but where I.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Went you so did. And as I say, I could
just listen to you speak about this stuff all day.
But it's one of those things when you say it,
it sounds so it's just nice, I think, to be
reminded that really it is just about stripping us all back,
getting rid of that ego, getting rid of that being
(52:53):
told how to do things. And it's just interesting to
hear that, just like your pregnancy and your labor wasn't
a one size, that you have continued that approach with
looking at how you view your children. It's that helistic
kind of approach, and you know, for children of trauma,
(53:13):
and you know, for us who have kind of had
to navigate some of the adversities from our parents, you know,
it's just so comforting to hear I guess that there
is a new way for us to love ourselves most importantly,
as you've said, and then go on to sort of
emanate that love to our children, and that yeah, we
(53:34):
don't have to recreate all of these unhelpful patterns that
we have learned that we can relearn and unlearn, and yeah,
do things a different way, do things our way. But yeah,
it's just beautiful to hear that, you know that the
way that our parents would have parented us was just
(53:54):
so yeah, blanket, blanket approach. So yeah, thank you, I know, and.
Speaker 1 (54:00):
You know what I just want to extend on that too.
Part of you know, who I am today is acknowledging
and owning my ship, man like owning ship that I've
created and owning you know, the behaviors and destruction that
I've that I've created in the past through you know,
(54:21):
all the pathways that I took previously, owning that.
Speaker 4 (54:24):
And really really.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Just being like, you know what, yelp, that was me,
and I own that and this is me now. Like
until we can fully sit in and own everything that
we've done, you're never going to get to a place
of deep listening because you're still distracting yourself and still, yeah,
you need to own your ship, like straight up, and.
Speaker 2 (54:48):
Like being like deep listening is getting fucking really honest
with yourself and it can be really confronting when you're
left with those shadows and the stuff that people, yeah
don't necessarily see. You're so right. So I'm saying it's
such a sounds like such a simple, beautiful, easy process,
but I can imagine there's lots of setbacks and challenges
(55:09):
along the way and getting like really reacquainted with ourselves,
like and you know, making ourselves comfortable in our in
our shit as well. Like hard.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
Yeah, and I talk a lot.
Speaker 1 (55:21):
I talk a lot about you know, being strong and
carrying the strength and being this person. But Sis, we've
got to just fucking sit there and just I hate
being strong all the time. Like I want to be vulnerable.
I want to be in that vulnerable state. And we
don't allow ourselves or if we do become vulnerable, it's
an unhealthy place. And you know that's where patterns or
(55:44):
drug use or alcohol abuse or you know, perpetrators of
violence find you in those unhealthy, vulnerable places.
Speaker 4 (55:51):
So it's about sitting and.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Listening, allowing yourself to be vulnerable, not just being that staunch,
strong person all the time. Go through the motions. If
you're feeling sad, sit in it, be stealing it, allow
that time to pass. That's how we heal, and that's
how we we get at We become you know, strong,
(56:14):
because we're allowing ourselves to be in a vulnerable place.
Speaker 4 (56:17):
That's healthy. We need we need.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
To and we don't, especially as black women, because of
those expectations. I was talking about, those family expectations, those
community expectations, those workplace expectations, you know, the expectations that.
Speaker 4 (56:33):
Your children put on you and so we just go, go, go, go, and.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
Just doesn't matter what happens, we just keep you know,
we get through it and we.
Speaker 4 (56:43):
Just keep moving forward.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
But we need to sit and be still, allow ourselves
to be in a healthy, vulnerable place, to go through
those motions, to sit still through those times, allow them
to pass in their own time.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
Gosh, I'm getting chills just I'm just like shaking my
head air high fiving because you're right, I feel you
on that cis. You know, when we sort of put
that strong black trope or angry black trope, we're just
like dehumanizing all of our emotions that we all carry.
(57:18):
And you know, one of my sort of mantras or
ways of teaching and working with women in how to
look after ourselves to care for the collective is, you know,
how do we just uncomplicate it? You know, just go
back to what we have always known, that that stillness,
and you're right, like just being with it, sitting in it,
(57:42):
not having to have the answers. I think so much
of this Western way of looking after yourself is actually
doing It's like you've got to go here, You've got
to do this, You've got to It's just like uncomplicating it.
How do we just be with it? How do we
just sit in it? And so I want to you know,
my last question and kind of circle back to your
first point, which is, I mean, obviously I could talk
(58:03):
to you all day, by the way, but I'm conscious
that you've got, you know, your own responsibilities. You know,
how can we truly truly show up for ourselves and
love and care for ourselves as black women, and show
ourselves that grace and compassion that we so freely give
out to others. What does it look like for you personally?
(58:24):
How do you find time to nurtureself in all of this?
Speaker 4 (58:28):
Ah?
Speaker 1 (58:28):
Yep, So I guess when I am vulnerable, I do
I do look at myself like that little girl that's crying.
You know, siss if you were to see a little
girl crying, a little two year old crying in the
street and alone, what would you do. What's the first
thing you would do for that little girl?
Speaker 2 (58:46):
Check in, go, give a hug, check their rye.
Speaker 4 (58:50):
That's right. You would hold her tied and just reassure
her that she's safe.
Speaker 1 (58:55):
And so that I'm feeling vulnerable, I hold on to
myself that little girl inside of me and say, you
know what, you are safe, Sis, it's okay, and comfort her.
That's where I start. That's where I start that you know,
now that I am a grown up, now that I
(59:15):
am in this big world, I take myself from the
business and I go and sit and be still with mother.
I go to the river, or I go to a
space that's in the bush, or even if you're in
the city, you can go to a park and take
your shoes off and plant your feet in mother, you know,
(59:36):
wiggle your toes in mother and give her everything. That's
what she's therefore give her, give her all of those
things that you're carrying, because she will take them. So yes,
I go and be in nature when I can. Like
I said, for those that don't have the luxury of
(59:56):
being in the bush like me, go to a park,
Go put your feet in that dirt and give mother
your worries. Let mother comfort you and see yourself as
that little person. Then comfort yourself. But yeah, that you know,
that's what I do.
Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
Sis.
Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
It's such a beautiful thing to share because you're right
inside of us, is yeah, our inner children. I often
think about that. There's probably an angry teenager in there,
there's all these different shadows and parts and how do
we extend it love, and how do we find time
to do that by you know when we say connecting
(01:00:38):
on country, Country is available everywhere, and we can show
it love and tenderness and be gentle and patient with
it at any time. Yeah, gosh, you are just yeah,
a formidable worrier, mother, sister, cultural woman. And yeah, I
(01:01:01):
actually feel even just sitting in this conversation with you,
I feel a sense of calmness which has come over
me from your presence. So I just want to say
thank you for that and for offering up glimmers of
your personal story and in sharing it for other women
and mothers who were thinking about birthing on country. But
(01:01:21):
also more importantly, the take home for me is just
how do we build in a bit of time to
get more intentional with ourselves and to begin to trust
and love ourselves and honor our knowing, value our knowing,
create space for our knowing, and take action on our
(01:01:42):
knowing too.
Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, welcome sissy, And you know, I
just I just want to touch again. Like there aren't books, No,
it's written in our DNA, It's imprinted you know, listen
and read it from within there, and we all carry
(01:02:04):
it as you know, First Nations people, Black followers, we have.
Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
It written in our day. Yeah, look inside yourself and
read the story. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
Wow, you're right. We've got this ancient sacred compass and
our ancestors are always guiding. I think we I think
we all sort of fall into the wire of our
proximity to whiteness and our proximity to white systems and ways.
(01:02:38):
But it's returning, it's returning back, and I think we're
all sort of going through this shifting of consciousness and
ideas and stories like this and aboriginal knowledge is what
is going to set us all free in a way,
you know. So Yeah, I can't thank you enough. I
(01:02:59):
feel like I could sit here and talk to you
for hours. I just want to say, from the bottom
of my heart, thank you so much for being so
generous and sharing. And it would be lovely to have
you back on to continue this yarn at some stage.
Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Oh look, Sissy, you're welcome, like big love to you. Hey,
And yeah, I could talk all day two, trust me,
I never shut up. But you know what, that's why
I walk this world. I'm a voice and you know,
I possess a voice that demands attention and I will
continue to do that. And you know, I hope that
(01:03:36):
you know, once my voice is heard, it gives other
women the power to have also a voice that demands
attention and to be heard. And so thanks for holding
this space, Sissy and invited me on. And whenever you
want a yarn, reach out, and whenever you want me
back on here, reach out. And you know, if I'm
more about there, I want to have yarns about certain topics,
(01:03:57):
reach out to Caroline, Sissy girl there, and you know
we'll make it happen.
Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely I would love to. I would
love I know, I know our paths will cross formally
and informally, and yeah, I'll definitely be hitting you up
for a yarn or two as I navigate this journey.
But just yeah, I would love to open up a
space when it felt right to be able to have
(01:04:22):
these yarns with you, because yeah, we're really returning back
to and yeah, I'm so grateful for your knowledge and
time today and your love and energy, like it's just beautiful.
So thank you, Sis, thank you so much for listening.
You mob if you are vibing this season of yarning up,
then please head over to Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
(01:04:44):
get your podcasts from to show us some love, rate,
and review. Alternatively, you can get in contact and give
us some feedback by visiting www. Dot carolinecow dot com,
dot au bo
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