March 14, 2023 • 19 mins
Topics discussed in today's episode:
- The Explosive Child, by Dr Ross Greene an associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School
- Kids do well if they can
- Flexibility & adaptability
- Problem solving
- High emotions, low intelligence
- Lagging skills research
- Motivation vs ability
- How to work with intensely rigid children
- Problem solving
- Explore, Explain, Empower
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello the stock to Justin Coilson, the founder of Happy
Families dot com dot au and the parenting expert and
co host of Channel nine's Parental Guidance.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Season two is coming up really soon.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Today on the podcasts, I have the opportunity to chat
with somebody that I'm super excited to talk to. Had
a couple of conversations with doctor Ross Green, an associate
clinical professor at Harvard Medical School and the originator of
the model in the book The Explosive Child. More than
half a million copies of this book have been sold,
a new approach for understanding and parenting easily frustrated, chronically
(00:45):
inflexible children. I love the book, Ross.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
You can see the dog eyed highlighted.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Nature of the book when I went through it, and
it's just a delight to be able to talk with
you today.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I appreciate you invading me.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Ross.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
One of the things that you are best known for saying,
and it makes up an entire chapter. Chapter two of
the book is kids do well if they can. For
parents who are struggling with children who are inflexible and rigid,
and let's face it, just a little bit frustrating and
even explosive. The idea that kids do well if they
(01:17):
can is both comforting and confronting, because it's comforting meaning, well,
the kids are doing the best that they can and
they just can't do it right now.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
But it's also frustrating from the point of view that, well, why.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Can't they do it like they did it yesterday or
they did it last week. Can you elaborate a little
bit more on this idea of kids do well if
they can?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
There's a lot of science behind kids do all if
they can? A lot of research not on kids do
all if they can specifically, but research telling us why
kids who have concerning behaviors aren't doing well. And what
the research tells us, of course, is that they are
lacking crucial skills flexibility, adaptability for us stration, tolerance, problem solving,
(02:02):
emotion regulation.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I'm going to pause you right there, Ross, Can
we talk about each of those four things five things?
Because it's so easy to sit here in a podcast
and go, yeah, okay, my kids don't have frustration, tolerance,
they don't have flexibility, adaptability.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
At motion regulation, everyone nods.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Their heads, but it's worth taking thirty seconds on each
of them and saying, here's what they are and here's
why they're lacking them. Can we please do that? That's
so to me really important.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I don't often get the chance to do that. Flexibility
and adaptability refers to your ability to deal with changes.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
They don't like that, right, Like when you're at the
park with the kids, you say it's time to go home.
They're kind of in their own little world. They're saying,
but I like it here, and now you're asking me.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
To change, right, And some kids are going to pout
about it. Some kids are going to go right along
with it, that's their personality. But kids who are lacking
the skills of flexibility and adaptability are going to get
very upset by demands for change, especially if after we
demand that they shift gears quickly and they don't shift
(03:05):
gears quickly. All we do is insist harder or push
harder that they shift quickly, and then you have concerning behavior.
Concerning behavior occurs anytime you're placing demands on kids that
they're lacking the skills to handle. So there's flexibility, adaptability.
Many of us take that skill for granted. I would say,
(03:27):
demands for flexibility and adaptability for most human beings happen
many dozens of times every day, probably more so for
kids because we adults are so keen on telling them
what to do. Frustration tolerance. All of us gets frustrated.
How you manage that, whether you use your words, which
(03:49):
we say to two year olds, but which many of
the kids I work with who are fifteen still haven't mastered.
The ability to continue thinking clearly even if you are
from frustrated crucial skill. We use it dozens of times
every day, easy to take for granted unless you are
your kid is lacking that skill. Problem solving. In my opinion,
(04:13):
it should come first problem solving. I think if you
twisted my arm behind my back and said, ross most
important skill for life, problem solving.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
When you talk through these skills, and we'll tie it
back to kids do well if they can in a
sec well, Actually, I guess this does tie in. There's
a phrase that I use all the time with parents
when I'm chatting about how we can help our kids
navigate big emotions, but also how we can navigate our
own big emotions, and that is the This is a shortcut.
I know that you'll probably resistant least part of what
(04:46):
I'm saying here, but for simplicity's sake, I'll say to parents,
high emotions equals low intelligence. The more emotional we become,
the harder it is to think clearly, the problem solved,
to deal with the frustration, to regulate and step through it.
And so I guess when we talk about an explosive child,
the entire book and even the concept of kids do
well if they can, ultimately comes down to let's help
(05:08):
kids too, and let's help us as adults to keep
our emotions in check so that we can solve problems effectively.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Correct and in early editions of the Explosive Child, I
used to write that kids lost about forty IQ points
in the midst of frustration. The reason I took it
out is because people were taking it literally and asking me,
where's the research on that? Right, No, it's a metaphor.
It's a metaphor, but it goes to what you're saying,
(05:35):
and then emotion regulation. Emotion regulation is huge. Life is
full of anxieties and frustrations and sadness. These are all
good emotions. Because they can propel us into action, says
the research. But the other thing the research says is
that if we feel those emotions too strongly, they can
(05:58):
shut us down, make it harder for us to think.
So those are the global skills. The research has identified
literally hundreds of skills frequently found lacking in kids with social, emotional,
and behavioral challenges. Why do I say kids do all
if they can? Because if you have those skills, you're
(06:19):
probably doing pretty well, and if you don't, you'd very
much like to be doing well, but something's getting in
your way.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
What I love about that phrase as well, Ross is
kids do well if they can, says We should trust
in the implicit in the innate desire of children to
do well. They want to do well, but they have
these challenges, these difficulties, these these skills that I yet
to be developed.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Here's the thing about that that becomes philosophical, and sometimes
in philosophical discussions there is no outcome because now you're
dueling about philosophies the lagging skills research, and there are
hundreds of studies. Now for me seals the philosophical debate.
(07:10):
There is no philosophical debate. Kids do all if they
can wins. And I'm not into winning and losing. I'm
just saying if the alternative philosophy is kids do all
if they want to, and that's going to lead us
to thinking that this kid doesn't want to do well,
and that's going to lead us to thinking it's our
(07:30):
job to make the kid wanna do well. The lagging
skills research puts that mentality to rest. It's been very
popular for a very long time. So I'm always I
like engaging in philosophical discussions, but that's one that should
have ended a very long time ago thanks to the
(07:52):
literature on lagging skills in kids with concerning behaviors.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Doctor Russ green He is the author of The Explosive
Child and associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School. What
I'm hearing you say is some people will say it's
a question of motivation. Others will say it's a question
of ability. You're highlighting this is an issue of ability.
Kids will do well if they have the ability. It's
not whether they're motivated to or not. They just don't
have the ability. And I would throw in here as well,
(08:21):
context is everything. Just because a child has the ability
at seven thirty am doesn't mean that they'll have the
ability at six thirty pm.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Correct, So there's always life's contextual factors that can make
you look better and more capable under some conditions and
not others, no doubt about it. I'm much better at
seven thirty am than I am at seven thirty pm.
Luckily we're doing this early enough for me to still
(08:48):
have some brain cells left. But you get the idea.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Very much so lagging skills. Lagging skills simply means that
things like frustration, tolerance, flexibility and adaptability, problem solved, emotion
regulation have not yet been developed. So right now, every
parent of a child who is explosed, every parent of
a child who is rigid, every parent of a child
who has additional needs. Maybe they've got a diagnosis, they're
on the spectrum ADHD, whatever it could be. Every parent
(09:16):
right now is listening to us and saying, well, how
do I give them the skills? I need them to
have the skills tonight, right now.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Please.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Obviously, skills don't develop after listening to a brief podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's for a time poor parent who really does what
airswers right now.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
But if we wanted to develop the skill of flexibility
and adaptability.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Now you've got a couple of kids. I have six kids.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
You know what it's like when a child becomes intensely rigid,
narrow minded tunnel vision and what they believe is the
way that it is, and no amount of logic will
convince them.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
How do we work with a child who.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Is inflexible and teach them that skill of psychological flexibility?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
All right, this is going to take a minute.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
I don't know if that as a skill that can
be taught through direct instruction, though I know many people try.
I think it is a skill that is taught more
through a process, And the process that we use to
enhance that skill is problem solving. Solving problems collaboratively. So
let me just rewind the tape a second. The kids
(10:23):
who we're thinking about right now don't look bad all
the time. They only look bad some of the time.
When do they look bad when expectations are being placed
upon them that they're having difficulty meeting. That could be
anything from difficulty turning off the xbox to come in
for dinner, to difficulty getting out of bed by seven
(10:45):
am to go to school, to difficulty eating what mom
or dad has made for dinner. Those are all expectations.
If a kid is having difficulty meeting and expectation, we
have a problem that needs to be solved, call those
unsolved problems. And as you know, but maybe some of
(11:05):
your listeners don't, the collaborative and proactive solutions model articulates
a very systematic way of solving problems collaboratively and proactively
with kids. So the good news is that once a
problem is solved, it doesn't cause concerning behavior anymore. That's good.
(11:26):
Both the problem is solved and the concerning behavior has subsided,
both very good things. But the process of solving problems
with kids collaboratively and outside the heat of the moment
proactively also gives kids practice at models for them and
(11:48):
enhances the very skills that they're lacking. So now to
your question. In the case of flexibility adaptability, let's say
we've got a kid who's a very concrete, literal, black
and white, rigid thinker. They've already got the solution of
that problem, right, but we don't want to hear about
(12:09):
their solution yet. We want to hear what's making it
hard for them to meet the expectation. First, it would
sound like this, I've noticed you've been having difficulty brushing
your teeth before going to bed at night. What's up.
That's the beginning of the first of the three steps
that are involved in solving a problem collaboratively. Let's say
(12:29):
this very rigid kid then says, oh, no, no, no, I'm
in trouble brushing my teeth before I go to bed
at night. I've got my way of doing it, and
that's my way of doing it. That's not any typical response, right.
The parent would then say, yes, but I'm interested in
knowing what's hard for you about meeting that expectation. Now
(12:49):
we're on a different subject. Now we're not on the
kid's solution. Now we've rewound the tape a little bit
back to what's making it hard for them. In the
second step, the adult is entering their concern into consideration.
Why we think it's important that the expectation be met.
(13:09):
In the third step, we're putting our heads together and
collaborating on a solution, but one that addresses the concerns
of both parties. So what happened in that process for
that kid number one? They felt heard this is not
my solution versus your solution. It's let's hear your concerns.
(13:29):
Let's hear what's getting in your way. Then I'm going
to tell you my concerns. So we're listening to each other,
we're modeling, we're practicing, listening, empathizing, taking another person's perspective.
And then when we get to that third step and
we discover that the kid's original solution and the adult's
(13:52):
original solution could not conceivably address the concerns of both
parties and that we need a different solution, Well, the
kid has just gotten one rep in the skill of
flexibility adaptability, also one rep on problem solving, one rep
(14:13):
on frustration tolerance. And if we did this proactively instead
of the heat of the moment, probably some skills that
are going to help them regulate their emotions down the
road if we get them good enough at this. So,
in answer to your question, I told you it was
going to take a while. How do you teach skills
when you're implementing collaborative and practice solutions By solving problems
(14:33):
collaboratively and proactively, just by engaging kids in that process,
we model practice and enhance those skills. I should mention
one other thing. It's not just the kid who's getting
practice at those skills.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
There are two things that I want to pick up
on here. One of them is a comment. I guess
it's a little bit self referential. Your three elements, where
you sit down and say, hey, I've noticed this, there's
some difficulty here. What's up in the model that I developed?
I would call that explore. We're literally exploring their world.
The next thing that you said is when they provide
(15:09):
some resistance or when we're not really making any progress,
you say, it's fine, but here's what we need. You
talked about how we're outlining the expectation. I call that explain.
So we've got an exploration and an explanation. And then
when you have that problem solving, that collaborative conversation, I
call that in power. So I call that the three e's.
It's essentially the same model. You and I ross we're twins.
(15:31):
We're teaching the same thing, but with different words.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
That a much better hand than I do. But anyways, but.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
This concept is so foreign to so many parents who
have been raised with the idea that if they're not
doing it. And I've got books on my shelf from
very well known, incredibly well educated parenting experts, who essentially
are saying, if the kids won't do as they're told,
(15:59):
parent hard, you've just got a parent harder. You've got
to push more, You've got to raise the stakes. That's
more of an observation and a reflection on what you've
shared that I just wanted to sort of, I guess,
for my happy family's audience, to tie together the way
that you're describing it in the way that I do,
I think it makes it. It's wonderfully mutually reinforcing. The
thing that I do want to pull out of there, though,
(16:19):
is I'm listening really carefully of the language that you use,
and I feel that you are very careful, explicitly careful
about the language you're using. For example, you're talking about
a child who's having difficulty or challenge, you're talking about
lagging skills, you're talking about the collaborative, proactive way that
(16:42):
we engage. Would you just talk a little bit about
the language that you're using and the specific words such
as difficult behavior.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I try not to be judgmental. I find that there's
many ways of talking about kids with concerning behaviors that
can be loaded. The biggest reason I choose my words
carefully is that Because this is such a dramatic departure
for so many people, it can be misunderstood quickly, often
by people who are taking what they're doing already and saying,
(17:14):
all right, this sounds good. How do I force what
I'm hearing now into what I'm doing already? And I
don't want my language to lend to confusion. I don't
want to add to the confusion by being imprecise. This
is hard enough of a transition for many caregivers without
(17:38):
me confusing them with my own language. So, yeah, I'm
going to talk about difficult behavior. I'm not going to
use terms that are more loaded than that, especially because
since I don't think the kid is doing this to here,
we go right, push our buttons, yank our chains, test limits,
(18:02):
manipulate us, coerce us into capitulating to their wishes. I
find those are very loaded terms, very judgmental that suggests
that we actually know what's behind what's going on with
the kid. None of that based in research. We're solid
(18:23):
this is a kid who's lacking skills. I want to
make sure that I am referring to this kid in
the most humane, compassionate, enlightened, non judgmental way possible.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I love the respect for the humanity of the child
that is in your approach. We'll continue the conversation tomorrow
as we find out what we can do when our
children are driving us crazy in the heat of the moment,
and also we'll unpack the truth about consequences. The Happy
Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media.
(18:57):
Craig Bruce is our executive and for more info about
making your family happier at check out Ross's website Lives
inthe Balance dot org and Happy Families dot com dot
You more of this conversation tomorrow
It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello the stock to Justin Coilson, the founder of Happy
Families dot com dot au and the parenting expert and
co host of Channel nine's Parental Guidance.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Season two is coming up really soon.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Today on the podcasts, I have the opportunity to chat
with somebody that I'm super excited to talk to. Had
a couple of conversations with doctor Ross Green, an associate
clinical professor at Harvard Medical School and the originator of
the model in the book The Explosive Child. More than
half a million copies of this book have been sold,
a new approach for understanding and parenting easily frustrated, chronically
(00:45):
inflexible children. I love the book, Ross.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
You can see the dog eyed highlighted.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Nature of the book when I went through it, and
it's just a delight to be able to talk with
you today.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I appreciate you invading me.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Ross.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
One of the things that you are best known for saying,
and it makes up an entire chapter. Chapter two of
the book is kids do well if they can. For
parents who are struggling with children who are inflexible and rigid,
and let's face it, just a little bit frustrating and
even explosive. The idea that kids do well if they
(01:17):
can is both comforting and confronting, because it's comforting meaning, well,
the kids are doing the best that they can and
they just can't do it right now.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
But it's also frustrating from the point of view that, well, why.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Can't they do it like they did it yesterday or
they did it last week. Can you elaborate a little
bit more on this idea of kids do well if
they can?
Speaker 3 (01:36):
There's a lot of science behind kids do all if
they can? A lot of research not on kids do
all if they can specifically, but research telling us why
kids who have concerning behaviors aren't doing well. And what
the research tells us, of course, is that they are
lacking crucial skills flexibility, adaptability for us stration, tolerance, problem solving,
(02:02):
emotion regulation.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, I'm going to pause you right there, Ross, Can
we talk about each of those four things five things?
Because it's so easy to sit here in a podcast
and go, yeah, okay, my kids don't have frustration, tolerance,
they don't have flexibility, adaptability.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
At motion regulation, everyone nods.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Their heads, but it's worth taking thirty seconds on each
of them and saying, here's what they are and here's
why they're lacking them. Can we please do that? That's
so to me really important.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I don't often get the chance to do that. Flexibility
and adaptability refers to your ability to deal with changes.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
They don't like that, right, Like when you're at the
park with the kids, you say it's time to go home.
They're kind of in their own little world. They're saying,
but I like it here, and now you're asking me.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
To change, right, And some kids are going to pout
about it. Some kids are going to go right along
with it, that's their personality. But kids who are lacking
the skills of flexibility and adaptability are going to get
very upset by demands for change, especially if after we
demand that they shift gears quickly and they don't shift
(03:05):
gears quickly. All we do is insist harder or push
harder that they shift quickly, and then you have concerning behavior.
Concerning behavior occurs anytime you're placing demands on kids that
they're lacking the skills to handle. So there's flexibility, adaptability.
Many of us take that skill for granted. I would say,
(03:27):
demands for flexibility and adaptability for most human beings happen
many dozens of times every day, probably more so for
kids because we adults are so keen on telling them
what to do. Frustration tolerance. All of us gets frustrated.
How you manage that, whether you use your words, which
(03:49):
we say to two year olds, but which many of
the kids I work with who are fifteen still haven't mastered.
The ability to continue thinking clearly even if you are
from frustrated crucial skill. We use it dozens of times
every day, easy to take for granted unless you are
your kid is lacking that skill. Problem solving. In my opinion,
(04:13):
it should come first problem solving. I think if you
twisted my arm behind my back and said, ross most
important skill for life, problem solving.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
When you talk through these skills, and we'll tie it
back to kids do well if they can in a
sec well, Actually, I guess this does tie in. There's
a phrase that I use all the time with parents
when I'm chatting about how we can help our kids
navigate big emotions, but also how we can navigate our
own big emotions, and that is the This is a shortcut.
I know that you'll probably resistant least part of what
(04:46):
I'm saying here, but for simplicity's sake, I'll say to parents,
high emotions equals low intelligence. The more emotional we become,
the harder it is to think clearly, the problem solved,
to deal with the frustration, to regulate and step through it.
And so I guess when we talk about an explosive child,
the entire book and even the concept of kids do
well if they can, ultimately comes down to let's help
(05:08):
kids too, and let's help us as adults to keep
our emotions in check so that we can solve problems effectively.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Correct and in early editions of the Explosive Child, I
used to write that kids lost about forty IQ points
in the midst of frustration. The reason I took it
out is because people were taking it literally and asking me,
where's the research on that? Right, No, it's a metaphor.
It's a metaphor, but it goes to what you're saying,
(05:35):
and then emotion regulation. Emotion regulation is huge. Life is
full of anxieties and frustrations and sadness. These are all
good emotions. Because they can propel us into action, says
the research. But the other thing the research says is
that if we feel those emotions too strongly, they can
(05:58):
shut us down, make it harder for us to think.
So those are the global skills. The research has identified
literally hundreds of skills frequently found lacking in kids with social, emotional,
and behavioral challenges. Why do I say kids do all
if they can? Because if you have those skills, you're
(06:19):
probably doing pretty well, and if you don't, you'd very
much like to be doing well, but something's getting in
your way.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
What I love about that phrase as well, Ross is
kids do well if they can, says We should trust
in the implicit in the innate desire of children to
do well. They want to do well, but they have
these challenges, these difficulties, these these skills that I yet
to be developed.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Here's the thing about that that becomes philosophical, and sometimes
in philosophical discussions there is no outcome because now you're
dueling about philosophies the lagging skills research, and there are
hundreds of studies. Now for me seals the philosophical debate.
(07:10):
There is no philosophical debate. Kids do all if they
can wins. And I'm not into winning and losing. I'm
just saying if the alternative philosophy is kids do all
if they want to, and that's going to lead us
to thinking that this kid doesn't want to do well,
and that's going to lead us to thinking it's our
(07:30):
job to make the kid wanna do well. The lagging
skills research puts that mentality to rest. It's been very
popular for a very long time. So I'm always I
like engaging in philosophical discussions, but that's one that should
have ended a very long time ago thanks to the
(07:52):
literature on lagging skills in kids with concerning behaviors.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Doctor Russ green He is the author of The Explosive
Child and associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School. What
I'm hearing you say is some people will say it's
a question of motivation. Others will say it's a question
of ability. You're highlighting this is an issue of ability.
Kids will do well if they have the ability. It's
not whether they're motivated to or not. They just don't
have the ability. And I would throw in here as well,
(08:21):
context is everything. Just because a child has the ability
at seven thirty am doesn't mean that they'll have the
ability at six thirty pm.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Correct, So there's always life's contextual factors that can make
you look better and more capable under some conditions and
not others, no doubt about it. I'm much better at
seven thirty am than I am at seven thirty pm.
Luckily we're doing this early enough for me to still
(08:48):
have some brain cells left. But you get the idea.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Very much so lagging skills. Lagging skills simply means that
things like frustration, tolerance, flexibility and adaptability, problem solved, emotion
regulation have not yet been developed. So right now, every
parent of a child who is explosed, every parent of
a child who is rigid, every parent of a child
who has additional needs. Maybe they've got a diagnosis, they're
on the spectrum ADHD, whatever it could be. Every parent
(09:16):
right now is listening to us and saying, well, how
do I give them the skills? I need them to
have the skills tonight, right now.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Please.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Obviously, skills don't develop after listening to a brief podcast.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
It's for a time poor parent who really does what
airswers right now.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
But if we wanted to develop the skill of flexibility
and adaptability.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Now you've got a couple of kids. I have six kids.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
You know what it's like when a child becomes intensely rigid,
narrow minded tunnel vision and what they believe is the
way that it is, and no amount of logic will
convince them.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
How do we work with a child who.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Is inflexible and teach them that skill of psychological flexibility?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
All right, this is going to take a minute.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
I don't know if that as a skill that can
be taught through direct instruction, though I know many people try.
I think it is a skill that is taught more
through a process, And the process that we use to
enhance that skill is problem solving. Solving problems collaboratively. So
let me just rewind the tape a second. The kids
(10:23):
who we're thinking about right now don't look bad all
the time. They only look bad some of the time.
When do they look bad when expectations are being placed
upon them that they're having difficulty meeting. That could be
anything from difficulty turning off the xbox to come in
for dinner, to difficulty getting out of bed by seven
(10:45):
am to go to school, to difficulty eating what mom
or dad has made for dinner. Those are all expectations.
If a kid is having difficulty meeting and expectation, we
have a problem that needs to be solved, call those
unsolved problems. And as you know, but maybe some of
(11:05):
your listeners don't, the collaborative and proactive solutions model articulates
a very systematic way of solving problems collaboratively and proactively
with kids. So the good news is that once a
problem is solved, it doesn't cause concerning behavior anymore. That's good.
(11:26):
Both the problem is solved and the concerning behavior has subsided,
both very good things. But the process of solving problems
with kids collaboratively and outside the heat of the moment
proactively also gives kids practice at models for them and
(11:48):
enhances the very skills that they're lacking. So now to
your question. In the case of flexibility adaptability, let's say
we've got a kid who's a very concrete, literal, black
and white, rigid thinker. They've already got the solution of
that problem, right, but we don't want to hear about
(12:09):
their solution yet. We want to hear what's making it
hard for them to meet the expectation. First, it would
sound like this, I've noticed you've been having difficulty brushing
your teeth before going to bed at night. What's up.
That's the beginning of the first of the three steps
that are involved in solving a problem collaboratively. Let's say
(12:29):
this very rigid kid then says, oh, no, no, no, I'm
in trouble brushing my teeth before I go to bed
at night. I've got my way of doing it, and
that's my way of doing it. That's not any typical response, right.
The parent would then say, yes, but I'm interested in
knowing what's hard for you about meeting that expectation. Now
(12:49):
we're on a different subject. Now we're not on the
kid's solution. Now we've rewound the tape a little bit
back to what's making it hard for them. In the
second step, the adult is entering their concern into consideration.
Why we think it's important that the expectation be met.
(13:09):
In the third step, we're putting our heads together and
collaborating on a solution, but one that addresses the concerns
of both parties. So what happened in that process for
that kid number one? They felt heard this is not
my solution versus your solution. It's let's hear your concerns.
(13:29):
Let's hear what's getting in your way. Then I'm going
to tell you my concerns. So we're listening to each other,
we're modeling, we're practicing, listening, empathizing, taking another person's perspective.
And then when we get to that third step and
we discover that the kid's original solution and the adult's
(13:52):
original solution could not conceivably address the concerns of both
parties and that we need a different solution, Well, the
kid has just gotten one rep in the skill of
flexibility adaptability, also one rep on problem solving, one rep
(14:13):
on frustration tolerance. And if we did this proactively instead
of the heat of the moment, probably some skills that
are going to help them regulate their emotions down the
road if we get them good enough at this. So,
in answer to your question, I told you it was
going to take a while. How do you teach skills
when you're implementing collaborative and practice solutions By solving problems
(14:33):
collaboratively and proactively, just by engaging kids in that process,
we model practice and enhance those skills. I should mention
one other thing. It's not just the kid who's getting
practice at those skills.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
There are two things that I want to pick up
on here. One of them is a comment. I guess
it's a little bit self referential. Your three elements, where
you sit down and say, hey, I've noticed this, there's
some difficulty here. What's up in the model that I developed?
I would call that explore. We're literally exploring their world.
The next thing that you said is when they provide
(15:09):
some resistance or when we're not really making any progress,
you say, it's fine, but here's what we need. You
talked about how we're outlining the expectation. I call that explain.
So we've got an exploration and an explanation. And then
when you have that problem solving, that collaborative conversation, I
call that in power. So I call that the three e's.
It's essentially the same model. You and I ross we're twins.
(15:31):
We're teaching the same thing, but with different words.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
That a much better hand than I do. But anyways, but.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
This concept is so foreign to so many parents who
have been raised with the idea that if they're not
doing it. And I've got books on my shelf from
very well known, incredibly well educated parenting experts, who essentially
are saying, if the kids won't do as they're told,
(15:59):
parent hard, you've just got a parent harder. You've got
to push more, You've got to raise the stakes. That's
more of an observation and a reflection on what you've
shared that I just wanted to sort of, I guess,
for my happy family's audience, to tie together the way
that you're describing it in the way that I do,
I think it makes it. It's wonderfully mutually reinforcing. The
thing that I do want to pull out of there, though,
(16:19):
is I'm listening really carefully of the language that you use,
and I feel that you are very careful, explicitly careful
about the language you're using. For example, you're talking about
a child who's having difficulty or challenge, you're talking about
lagging skills, you're talking about the collaborative, proactive way that
(16:42):
we engage. Would you just talk a little bit about
the language that you're using and the specific words such
as difficult behavior.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I try not to be judgmental. I find that there's
many ways of talking about kids with concerning behaviors that
can be loaded. The biggest reason I choose my words
carefully is that Because this is such a dramatic departure
for so many people, it can be misunderstood quickly, often
by people who are taking what they're doing already and saying,
(17:14):
all right, this sounds good. How do I force what
I'm hearing now into what I'm doing already? And I
don't want my language to lend to confusion. I don't
want to add to the confusion by being imprecise. This
is hard enough of a transition for many caregivers without
(17:38):
me confusing them with my own language. So, yeah, I'm
going to talk about difficult behavior. I'm not going to
use terms that are more loaded than that, especially because
since I don't think the kid is doing this to here,
we go right, push our buttons, yank our chains, test limits,
(18:02):
manipulate us, coerce us into capitulating to their wishes. I
find those are very loaded terms, very judgmental that suggests
that we actually know what's behind what's going on with
the kid. None of that based in research. We're solid
(18:23):
this is a kid who's lacking skills. I want to
make sure that I am referring to this kid in
the most humane, compassionate, enlightened, non judgmental way possible.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
I love the respect for the humanity of the child
that is in your approach. We'll continue the conversation tomorrow
as we find out what we can do when our
children are driving us crazy in the heat of the moment,
and also we'll unpack the truth about consequences. The Happy
Families podcast is produced by Justin Roland from Bridge Media.
(18:57):
Craig Bruce is our executive and for more info about
making your family happier at check out Ross's website Lives
inthe Balance dot org and Happy Families dot com dot
You more of this conversation tomorrow
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