May 9, 2023 • 19 mins
Justin speaks with author & associate Professor Katie Davis about her new book
Topics discussed in this episode -
- Technology's Child by Katie Davis
- What are the risks for children under 3?
- Be keen observers
- Be aware of when you tend to reach for a device when you need a break
- The relationship between emotional & behavioural regulation
- Why are screens such an effective regulator?
- Executive function
- "Educational" apps
- Look for self directed & community supported apps
Find us on Facebook at Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families
Email us your questions and comments at podcasts@happyfamilies.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy
Families dot com dot AU. Today on the Happy Families Podcast,
a conversation about a brand new book that's just been
published called Technologies Child Digital Media's role in the ages
and stages of growing up.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
The author is Katie Davis.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I'm going to tell you a bit about Katie, and
then we're going to have a really important conversation for
any parent of any child whoever uses technology, which would
be all of them. Katie Davis is an associate professor
at the University of Washington Information School, where she's a
founding member and co director of the UW Digital Youth Lab.
(00:49):
She's also the co author of the app Generation, How
Today's youth Navigate identity, intimacy, imagination in a digital World
with one of the all time gurus of psychology, a
guy who has done more about intelligence in psychology than
maybe anybody, Howard Gardner, and writers in the Secret Garden
fan Fiction, Youth and New Forms of Mentoring, which she
(01:13):
wrote with Cecilia aragon I. Might also mention that The
book Technologies Child, which is the one we're going to
be talking about today by Katie Davis, also has some
pretty big what's the word like, there's some pretty big
names behind this book. Adam Grant has just named this
I Must read in his next Big Idea Club And
(01:33):
if you get an endorsement from Adam Grant. I mean, Katie,
did you just about cry when Adam Grant said you
need to read this book?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I was pretty excited. I have to say. Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So you're a mom to one, You've got a little guy.
He is six years old.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
He is, Yeah, Oliver.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
The first question I have to ask before we even
talk about your book is how do you go with
Oliver and technology?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Six years old?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I'm sure that he wants to be I don't know,
watching cartoons. He wants to play Pokemon or.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Something like is he Pokemon?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Is he at you all the time to be on
his screen?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, you know, we go in and out. So sometimes
he's really really pushing to get on the screen and
watch something. Right now, it is certainly Pokemon. But then
other times he's pretty relaxed and more interested in doing
things offline. It's hard to project, really, I think but
that's what I have learned as a parent, is that
(02:30):
children are often hard to predict.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, they're They're not quite the same as I
don't know chemicals in a chemistry.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Experiment, are they?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
This is no exactly A.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Little bit more random.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Okay, I want to dive into some of the things
that you've written about in this book. I showed you
my copy of your book, which has I was going
to say thousands of pages doggied, but it's not a
It's only two hundred and fifty pages long, but I've
doggied almost every single page. Can we just talk about
kids under the age of about well, let's start with
our toddler is our infants? Now told children under about
(03:01):
the age of three. When parents are giving their children screens.
I love how human you are in the book and
saying sometimes you just have to because like you need
a break, and it's okay for the kids to have
some screens, But what are the risks that we are
up against with children under the age of three? And
(03:21):
they use all of screens, whether it's for TV or
whether they're using apps.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Right, So there are a number of things and as
you mentioned, sometimes we need to give us ourselves a break.
So I first want to preface what I'm about to
say by urging parents to give themselves a break and
not be too hard on themselves, because that's one thing
that I talk about in this book is that there's
just so much guilt and pressure associated with being a
(03:47):
parent these days, and not just related to technology, but
pretty much every aspect of your child's development. You're expected
to set them up on the road to success. And
so I want to just acknowledge that there's a lot
of pressure. Sure, it's very much there when it comes
to technology, and in fact, I talk about this idea
in the book that I call the Good Enough Digital Parent,
(04:09):
where the idea is that we are trying to do
our best, of course, to steer our children towards positive,
developmentally supportive technology experiences. But we're not going to be
perfect at this all the time, and we're going to
make mistakes. The key is that we are going to
be keen observers of how our children are reacting as
(04:31):
they're engaging with technology, and also after they've engaged with
the technology, and depending on how they act, we will
pivot and adjust accordingly, and you know, try and steer
them towards the best possible experiences. But when it comes
to children, the really young children, generally speaking, I would
(04:54):
say it's fine, you know, occasionally to introduce your child
to an app that is geared towards little kids, or
perhaps watching a few TV shows, But the thing to
be on the lookout for is noticing whether or not
you're reaching for the tablet or the phone every single
(05:18):
time you want to break or every single time your
child is getting fussy, because if that starts to be
the default move for you, that's not going to be
good for your child or for you, because that's not
going to help you support your child in managing their
(05:39):
own emotions and learning how to regulate themselves. If they
always know that you're going to put a screen in
front of them to soothe them, they're not going to
develop that emotion regulation and the resilience that is so
important during those early years.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
This is a fascinating path that I want to just
try a few more steps down, the relationship between emotion
regulation and behavioral regulation and screen use. So I hear
parents say this all the time. When my children are
in front of a screen, they are so regulated like
the screen does all of this regulation for them. They're calm,
(06:17):
they're willing to eat their food, they're willing to get
into their school uniforms, they're willing to do almost anything
that I ask them to do. And yet when we
turn off the screen, it's like they become like hashtag
demon child.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
They just turn into this psycho child.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And I wonder if you can talk about that emotional
and behavioral regulation issue. And I guess this extends well
beyond the toddally years. Now, why is it the TV
is such an extraordinary regulator and why does that regulation
dissipate so fast once the screen is off?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Absolutely? So, first of all, it's important to recognize that
in those early years each one, two, and three, one
of the key developmental tasks for kids that age is
to develop the ability to regulate their emotions, to regulate
their behavior. In fact, so these constellations of skills that
(07:10):
are called executive function, and it's probably the most important
thing that they're developing, aside from language. And so when
we put our kids in front of a TV, if
we think about what sort of attention and now attention
is really wrapped up in executive function and self regulation.
It's really all about being able to manage your own attention.
(07:33):
But when you're looking at a screen, the kind of
attention that you're engaging in is what we call bottom
up processes of attention. So you're kind of being led
by the TV. You're not really having to do any
sort of work. So, for your listeners who are thinking
about an analogy for their experiences, if you think about
(07:56):
when you're just scrolling through your social media feed, you're
really not doing much of anything. You're not putting a
lot of attention in it. You're just letting yourself be
taken from one post to another. However, if you're composing
a cover letter for a job or an application for something,
that's when you're using top down processes of attention. So
(08:17):
you're really very much focused and you're controlling your attention.
You're putting a lot of thought into it. And that's
the kind of attention that doesn't usually get engaged when
you're watching TV. And so when when you notice that
your child is sort of looking like a zombie in
front of the screen, that's because they're not really putting
(08:37):
much effort into their attention. It's being co opted in
a way by the TV screen. But that's not to
say that every single digital experience uses that kind of attention.
There are certainly more interactive forms of digital experiences that
require kids to engage in more of those effortful forms
(08:58):
of attention, those top down processes. So some games, when
you get into slightly older kids, schemes like Minecraft or Roadblocks,
those are good examples of the types of digital experiences
that require a different kind of attention that is more effortful,
that might be a little bit more supportive of executive
function skills.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Okabe, there are a couple of different tangents that I
want to go on as a result of what you've
just said here, there's no way I'm going to get
to the list of the bottom of my list of
questions today. You've talked about educational apps. You highlight in
Technology's Child that for the most part, educational apps are
not particularly educational. Would you mind just fortunately, yeah, can
(09:44):
you step through what the data shows us around that
and the false promises that are made by these app
developers who are really I guess what are they doing.
They're trying to capitalize on our best intentions to give
our children a head start and also give ourselves a
break while using a screen. What's the real story behind
educational apps?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Well, the first story to keep in mind is that
the vast majority of these apps have zero research behind them.
So they're making a lot of claims about being educational
without any sort of support or evidence that I would
as a researcher consider rigorous. And so maybe they've tested
out with a few kids or families, but not really
(10:27):
rigorous peer reviewed research. So that's the first thing. Just
beware of the claims that they're making. And then I
think beyond that, it's really something that parents need to
try out on a case by case basis, look at
the app, see how their children are engaging with it,
and again, what sort of attention is this app encouraging?
(10:51):
Is it just sort of leading them down one path
without really thinking, or is it actually getting them to think. So,
for young kids, there are a lot of apps that
are focused on literacy development or numeracy development, and some
of those can be quite good, provided they're not including
(11:13):
all too many bells and whistles. So you have to
keep in mind that for little kids, they have limited
information processing abilities, so they're still developing those tools and
the amount of information that's coming at them, if it's
too much, if there's too many songs, or if there's
too many visuals on the screen that might overwhelm their
(11:36):
information processing capacity. So in fact, you want to look
for apps that are pretty minimal and that don't have
a lot of bells and whistles, that they're not really busy,
because the busier they are, the more overwhelming it's going
to be for your child, and the more taxing, and
they're probably less likely to get out of it the
(11:56):
core educational objective. So whether that's to count or learning
your ABC's, if there's a lot of other characters, you know,
getting really excited and all these different things going on,
that should be a warning sign that maybe it's a
little too much for your child.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
When I look at the apps that my children want
to play, they tend to not be oriented towards anything
other than time wasting. And I guess I have my
own theories about this, and I suspect that yours and
mind will. I've lap quite a lot here, but I'd
love to get your perspective on this. Why are children
(12:37):
so drawn in by screens? What is it about that
makes screens so compelling?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Well, it's kind of what draws us in these screens,
and the importantly, the applications that are running on the
screens have been specifically designed with psychological theories that are
known to hold and keep our attention. And so children
(13:05):
are very susceptible to having their attention co opt in
a way when they're confronted with very compelling content. And
the developers of these different apps and TV shows, they
know exactly what they're doing. They kind of have the
formula down path to hold our attention, our attention as adults,
(13:28):
but also our children's attention, and that's kind of the
business model. The more they can hold our attention, the
better their bottom line does. And so that, yeah, it
really can sometimes go against what's best for a child's development.
And so in the book, I really encourage parents to
when they're looking at their children interacting with a particular
(13:53):
digital device or application and they're trying to figure out
is this good for my child? Is it not? But
how do I even know? There are two questions that
I encourage parents to ask themselves, And these are questions
that I ask myself every day when I'm considering what
sort of technology is okay for Oliver to have? For
(14:15):
that day and for how long. I ask myself first,
is this self directed? And so by self directed, I
mean experiences where your child is really in the driver's seat.
The agency is with your child, it's not with the technology.
And so going back to our conversation about having attention
(14:35):
being co opted, when that happens, your child is no
longer in the driver's seat of their digital interaction. So
you really want to be thinking about to what extent
is my child kind of there and in control, Recognizing
not all experiences are going to allow children to be
equally in control of their digital experiences. So, but you
(14:56):
do want to at least try as much as possible
to steer them towards experiences that they're really in the
driver's seat. The second question that I'm asking myself every
day is is this experienced community supported? And by that,
I mean who's are involved either during the experience or
(15:17):
surrounding the experience that can actually support my child. So
with little kids, this tends to be parents or sometimes
older siblings who are on hand to help the child
interact with a particular app or device, maybe engage with them.
So joint media engagement is actually been shown to be
(15:40):
really supportive of kids development, so their literacy development, their
numeracy development, and so on. So thinking about what opportunities
does this digital experience provide in terms of involving other people.
When you get into older kids and they're starting to
participate in online communities, sometimes the support can actually come
(16:03):
from within the platform, where there's an actual community online
that can support kids and help them have an enriching
experience online. The opposite is also true. Sometimes you can
have an experience that is actually not very community supportive.
For instance, if your child is experiencing bullying online, that's
(16:24):
sort of the opposite of community support. So it's really
those two questions that I'm asking myself every day as
a parent. Is this self directed? Is it community supported?
Recognizing that not everything is going to be amazingly great
when it comes to those two questions, but I'm at
least striving for making them as good as possible.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Katie, when you describe that, I think about my Facebook use.
What I've found is that I have no sense of agency.
Once I get into Facebook. It takes away my capacity
to choose. And so what I've done with Facebook, I've
had my wife put a screen time password with a
screen limit of fifteen minutes per day on that particular app,
I don't like being on there. I don't feel good
(17:08):
when I'm on there, and I'm not using it for
high quality interactions. I'm just scrolling through the garbage that
it feeds me. And yes, the garbage that it feeds
me is all the stuff that I'm interested in, like
the surfing and the bike riding and all the other
stuff that I'm really passionate about in my life. But
it's such unproductive time and I never get off a
fifteen minute Facebook session. I think, oh, that was so good.
(17:30):
I feel so fulfilled now. And I guess when I
hear you describe those two things, the importance of agency
or autonomy, the self direction, and also the level of
community support, those two things are distinctly lacking in my
social media use. Ironically, it's called social media, and yet
I'm not particularly using it in a very social way.
And I can see the value, I can see the
(17:52):
wisdom in what you've shared. Our time is up already.
I feel like we've barely started. I feel like we've
talked about two of the things that are in my
notes that I want to talk about. Do you think
that we could continue this conversation tomorrow on.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
The podcast, Absolutely, I would love to.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I'm speaking with Katie Davis, an associate professor at the
University of Washington, about her book, recommended highly by Adam
Grant's Next Big Idea Club as a must read. The
book is called Technologies Child, Digital Media's role in the
Ages and Stages of growing Up. Tomorrow, when we return,
we're going to continue this conversation by diving into some
of the technology challenges that we have with.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Bigger kids and our teens.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It's The Happy Family's podcast, produced by Justin Roland from
Bridge Media.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
For more information about Technology's Child, you can see the
show notes and also check out Katie's website katiedavisresearch dot com.
If you go there and sign up for Katie's newsletter,
she'll be able to send you a weekly tidbit of
research and ideas for how you can manage tech better
in your home with your kids. That's Katie Davisresearch dot com.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Sign up for her newsletter, then
It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
time poor parent who just wants answers Now.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson, the founder of Happy
Families dot com dot AU. Today on the Happy Families Podcast,
a conversation about a brand new book that's just been
published called Technologies Child Digital Media's role in the ages
and stages of growing up.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
The author is Katie Davis.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I'm going to tell you a bit about Katie, and
then we're going to have a really important conversation for
any parent of any child whoever uses technology, which would
be all of them. Katie Davis is an associate professor
at the University of Washington Information School, where she's a
founding member and co director of the UW Digital Youth Lab.
(00:49):
She's also the co author of the app Generation, How
Today's youth Navigate identity, intimacy, imagination in a digital World
with one of the all time gurus of psychology, a
guy who has done more about intelligence in psychology than
maybe anybody, Howard Gardner, and writers in the Secret Garden
fan Fiction, Youth and New Forms of Mentoring, which she
(01:13):
wrote with Cecilia aragon I. Might also mention that The
book Technologies Child, which is the one we're going to
be talking about today by Katie Davis, also has some
pretty big what's the word like, there's some pretty big
names behind this book. Adam Grant has just named this
I Must read in his next Big Idea Club And
(01:33):
if you get an endorsement from Adam Grant. I mean, Katie,
did you just about cry when Adam Grant said you
need to read this book?
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I was pretty excited. I have to say. Yes.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
So you're a mom to one, You've got a little guy.
He is six years old.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
He is, Yeah, Oliver.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
The first question I have to ask before we even
talk about your book is how do you go with
Oliver and technology?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Six years old?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I'm sure that he wants to be I don't know,
watching cartoons. He wants to play Pokemon or.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Something like is he Pokemon?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Is he at you all the time to be on
his screen?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Well, you know, we go in and out. So sometimes
he's really really pushing to get on the screen and
watch something. Right now, it is certainly Pokemon. But then
other times he's pretty relaxed and more interested in doing
things offline. It's hard to project, really, I think but
that's what I have learned as a parent, is that
(02:30):
children are often hard to predict.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, they're They're not quite the same as I
don't know chemicals in a chemistry.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Experiment, are they?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
This is no exactly A.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Little bit more random.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Okay, I want to dive into some of the things
that you've written about in this book. I showed you
my copy of your book, which has I was going
to say thousands of pages doggied, but it's not a
It's only two hundred and fifty pages long, but I've
doggied almost every single page. Can we just talk about
kids under the age of about well, let's start with
our toddler is our infants? Now told children under about
(03:01):
the age of three. When parents are giving their children screens.
I love how human you are in the book and
saying sometimes you just have to because like you need
a break, and it's okay for the kids to have
some screens, But what are the risks that we are
up against with children under the age of three? And
(03:21):
they use all of screens, whether it's for TV or
whether they're using apps.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Right, So there are a number of things and as
you mentioned, sometimes we need to give us ourselves a break.
So I first want to preface what I'm about to
say by urging parents to give themselves a break and
not be too hard on themselves, because that's one thing
that I talk about in this book is that there's
just so much guilt and pressure associated with being a
(03:47):
parent these days, and not just related to technology, but
pretty much every aspect of your child's development. You're expected
to set them up on the road to success. And
so I want to just acknowledge that there's a lot
of pressure. Sure, it's very much there when it comes
to technology, and in fact, I talk about this idea
in the book that I call the Good Enough Digital Parent,
(04:09):
where the idea is that we are trying to do
our best, of course, to steer our children towards positive,
developmentally supportive technology experiences. But we're not going to be
perfect at this all the time, and we're going to
make mistakes. The key is that we are going to
be keen observers of how our children are reacting as
(04:31):
they're engaging with technology, and also after they've engaged with
the technology, and depending on how they act, we will
pivot and adjust accordingly, and you know, try and steer
them towards the best possible experiences. But when it comes
to children, the really young children, generally speaking, I would
(04:54):
say it's fine, you know, occasionally to introduce your child
to an app that is geared towards little kids, or
perhaps watching a few TV shows, But the thing to
be on the lookout for is noticing whether or not
you're reaching for the tablet or the phone every single
(05:18):
time you want to break or every single time your
child is getting fussy, because if that starts to be
the default move for you, that's not going to be
good for your child or for you, because that's not
going to help you support your child in managing their
(05:39):
own emotions and learning how to regulate themselves. If they
always know that you're going to put a screen in
front of them to soothe them, they're not going to
develop that emotion regulation and the resilience that is so
important during those early years.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
This is a fascinating path that I want to just
try a few more steps down, the relationship between emotion
regulation and behavioral regulation and screen use. So I hear
parents say this all the time. When my children are
in front of a screen, they are so regulated like
the screen does all of this regulation for them. They're calm,
(06:17):
they're willing to eat their food, they're willing to get
into their school uniforms, they're willing to do almost anything
that I ask them to do. And yet when we
turn off the screen, it's like they become like hashtag
demon child.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
They just turn into this psycho child.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And I wonder if you can talk about that emotional
and behavioral regulation issue. And I guess this extends well
beyond the toddally years. Now, why is it the TV
is such an extraordinary regulator and why does that regulation
dissipate so fast once the screen is off?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Absolutely? So, first of all, it's important to recognize that
in those early years each one, two, and three, one
of the key developmental tasks for kids that age is
to develop the ability to regulate their emotions, to regulate
their behavior. In fact, so these constellations of skills that
(07:10):
are called executive function, and it's probably the most important
thing that they're developing, aside from language. And so when
we put our kids in front of a TV, if
we think about what sort of attention and now attention
is really wrapped up in executive function and self regulation.
It's really all about being able to manage your own attention.
(07:33):
But when you're looking at a screen, the kind of
attention that you're engaging in is what we call bottom
up processes of attention. So you're kind of being led
by the TV. You're not really having to do any
sort of work. So, for your listeners who are thinking
about an analogy for their experiences, if you think about
(07:56):
when you're just scrolling through your social media feed, you're
really not doing much of anything. You're not putting a
lot of attention in it. You're just letting yourself be
taken from one post to another. However, if you're composing
a cover letter for a job or an application for something,
that's when you're using top down processes of attention. So
(08:17):
you're really very much focused and you're controlling your attention.
You're putting a lot of thought into it. And that's
the kind of attention that doesn't usually get engaged when
you're watching TV. And so when when you notice that
your child is sort of looking like a zombie in
front of the screen, that's because they're not really putting
(08:37):
much effort into their attention. It's being co opted in
a way by the TV screen. But that's not to
say that every single digital experience uses that kind of attention.
There are certainly more interactive forms of digital experiences that
require kids to engage in more of those effortful forms
(08:58):
of attention, those top down processes. So some games, when
you get into slightly older kids, schemes like Minecraft or Roadblocks,
those are good examples of the types of digital experiences
that require a different kind of attention that is more effortful,
that might be a little bit more supportive of executive
function skills.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Okabe, there are a couple of different tangents that I
want to go on as a result of what you've
just said here, there's no way I'm going to get
to the list of the bottom of my list of
questions today. You've talked about educational apps. You highlight in
Technology's Child that for the most part, educational apps are
not particularly educational. Would you mind just fortunately, yeah, can
(09:44):
you step through what the data shows us around that
and the false promises that are made by these app
developers who are really I guess what are they doing.
They're trying to capitalize on our best intentions to give
our children a head start and also give ourselves a
break while using a screen. What's the real story behind
educational apps?
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Well, the first story to keep in mind is that
the vast majority of these apps have zero research behind them.
So they're making a lot of claims about being educational
without any sort of support or evidence that I would
as a researcher consider rigorous. And so maybe they've tested
out with a few kids or families, but not really
(10:27):
rigorous peer reviewed research. So that's the first thing. Just
beware of the claims that they're making. And then I
think beyond that, it's really something that parents need to
try out on a case by case basis, look at
the app, see how their children are engaging with it,
and again, what sort of attention is this app encouraging?
(10:51):
Is it just sort of leading them down one path
without really thinking, or is it actually getting them to think. So,
for young kids, there are a lot of apps that
are focused on literacy development or numeracy development, and some
of those can be quite good, provided they're not including
(11:13):
all too many bells and whistles. So you have to
keep in mind that for little kids, they have limited
information processing abilities, so they're still developing those tools and
the amount of information that's coming at them, if it's
too much, if there's too many songs, or if there's
too many visuals on the screen that might overwhelm their
(11:36):
information processing capacity. So in fact, you want to look
for apps that are pretty minimal and that don't have
a lot of bells and whistles, that they're not really busy,
because the busier they are, the more overwhelming it's going
to be for your child, and the more taxing, and
they're probably less likely to get out of it the
(11:56):
core educational objective. So whether that's to count or learning
your ABC's, if there's a lot of other characters, you know,
getting really excited and all these different things going on,
that should be a warning sign that maybe it's a
little too much for your child.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
When I look at the apps that my children want
to play, they tend to not be oriented towards anything
other than time wasting. And I guess I have my
own theories about this, and I suspect that yours and
mind will. I've lap quite a lot here, but I'd
love to get your perspective on this. Why are children
(12:37):
so drawn in by screens? What is it about that
makes screens so compelling?
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Well, it's kind of what draws us in these screens,
and the importantly, the applications that are running on the
screens have been specifically designed with psychological theories that are
known to hold and keep our attention. And so children
(13:05):
are very susceptible to having their attention co opt in
a way when they're confronted with very compelling content. And
the developers of these different apps and TV shows, they
know exactly what they're doing. They kind of have the
formula down path to hold our attention, our attention as adults,
(13:28):
but also our children's attention, and that's kind of the
business model. The more they can hold our attention, the
better their bottom line does. And so that, yeah, it
really can sometimes go against what's best for a child's development.
And so in the book, I really encourage parents to
when they're looking at their children interacting with a particular
(13:53):
digital device or application and they're trying to figure out
is this good for my child? Is it not? But
how do I even know? There are two questions that
I encourage parents to ask themselves, And these are questions
that I ask myself every day when I'm considering what
sort of technology is okay for Oliver to have? For
(14:15):
that day and for how long. I ask myself first,
is this self directed? And so by self directed, I
mean experiences where your child is really in the driver's seat.
The agency is with your child, it's not with the technology.
And so going back to our conversation about having attention
(14:35):
being co opted, when that happens, your child is no
longer in the driver's seat of their digital interaction. So
you really want to be thinking about to what extent
is my child kind of there and in control, Recognizing
not all experiences are going to allow children to be
equally in control of their digital experiences. So, but you
(14:56):
do want to at least try as much as possible
to steer them towards experiences that they're really in the
driver's seat. The second question that I'm asking myself every
day is is this experienced community supported? And by that,
I mean who's are involved either during the experience or
(15:17):
surrounding the experience that can actually support my child. So
with little kids, this tends to be parents or sometimes
older siblings who are on hand to help the child
interact with a particular app or device, maybe engage with them.
So joint media engagement is actually been shown to be
(15:40):
really supportive of kids development, so their literacy development, their
numeracy development, and so on. So thinking about what opportunities
does this digital experience provide in terms of involving other people.
When you get into older kids and they're starting to
participate in online communities, sometimes the support can actually come
(16:03):
from within the platform, where there's an actual community online
that can support kids and help them have an enriching
experience online. The opposite is also true. Sometimes you can
have an experience that is actually not very community supportive.
For instance, if your child is experiencing bullying online, that's
(16:24):
sort of the opposite of community support. So it's really
those two questions that I'm asking myself every day as
a parent. Is this self directed? Is it community supported?
Recognizing that not everything is going to be amazingly great
when it comes to those two questions, but I'm at
least striving for making them as good as possible.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Katie, when you describe that, I think about my Facebook use.
What I've found is that I have no sense of agency.
Once I get into Facebook. It takes away my capacity
to choose. And so what I've done with Facebook, I've
had my wife put a screen time password with a
screen limit of fifteen minutes per day on that particular app,
I don't like being on there. I don't feel good
(17:08):
when I'm on there, and I'm not using it for
high quality interactions. I'm just scrolling through the garbage that
it feeds me. And yes, the garbage that it feeds
me is all the stuff that I'm interested in, like
the surfing and the bike riding and all the other
stuff that I'm really passionate about in my life. But
it's such unproductive time and I never get off a
fifteen minute Facebook session. I think, oh, that was so good.
(17:30):
I feel so fulfilled now. And I guess when I
hear you describe those two things, the importance of agency
or autonomy, the self direction, and also the level of
community support, those two things are distinctly lacking in my
social media use. Ironically, it's called social media, and yet
I'm not particularly using it in a very social way.
And I can see the value, I can see the
(17:52):
wisdom in what you've shared. Our time is up already.
I feel like we've barely started. I feel like we've
talked about two of the things that are in my
notes that I want to talk about. Do you think
that we could continue this conversation tomorrow on.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
The podcast, Absolutely, I would love to.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I'm speaking with Katie Davis, an associate professor at the
University of Washington, about her book, recommended highly by Adam
Grant's Next Big Idea Club as a must read. The
book is called Technologies Child, Digital Media's role in the
Ages and Stages of growing Up. Tomorrow, when we return,
we're going to continue this conversation by diving into some
of the technology challenges that we have with.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Bigger kids and our teens.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It's The Happy Family's podcast, produced by Justin Roland from
Bridge Media.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
For more information about Technology's Child, you can see the
show notes and also check out Katie's website katiedavisresearch dot com.
If you go there and sign up for Katie's newsletter,
she'll be able to send you a weekly tidbit of
research and ideas for how you can manage tech better
in your home with your kids. That's Katie Davisresearch dot com.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Sign up for her newsletter, then
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.