November 15, 2023 • 20 mins
*Content warning: mature themes - listener discretion advised*
How do you talk to your kids when they are touched by the profound loss of a loved one through a suicide? These hard conversations must be had openly with your children - with kindness, compassion, and empathy. Your job is NOT to tell them everything, but to answer their questions honestly, in an age-appropriate way.
Topics in this episode:
- Protecting children from pain
- Limited evidence for how to have these conversations
- Keep your reactions level
- National Centre for Childhood Grief
- Keep the conversation age/developmentally appropriate
- Young Children and Middle Childhood:
- Keep it simple
- Operate on the principle of 'the fire hose'
- Answer questions honestly (to the degree with which they are curious) - the more general you can be, the more protected your child will be
- Offer empathy
- Talking helps to dispel misinformation and stigma and creates a safe space to ask questions
- Encourage questions about anything, and at any time
- Ensure they understand what "dead" means. Give concrete answers, not idioms or euphemisms
- Expect and accept a range of emotions (and behaviours!) from your child, which will change daily. Let them feel safe to let it all out
Picture Books for Helping Children Navigate Grief
- Elergy for an Elephant by Ryan Abramowitz
- Death Is Stupid by Anastasia Higginbotham
- Luna's Red Hat by Emmi Smid
- Red Chocolate Elephants by Diana C. Sands
- Forever Connected by Jessica Correnti
For help:
- Lifeline: 13 11 14
- Suicide Callback Service: 1300 659 467
- Mensline Australia: 1300 789 987
- Kids Helpline: 1800 55 1800
- Standby - Support After Suicide 1300 727 247
In Memory of Logan - Happy Families
Find us on Facebook at Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families
Email us your questions and comments at podcasts@happyfamilies.com.au
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's the Happy Family's podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Today's conversation is not a conversation for kids. We encourage
parents to make sure that you're aware of who's listening
to this discussion and make sure that only mature years
are participating in today's Happy Families podcasts. Hello, my name's Sobs.
Justin course, I'm here with my wife and mom to
our six daughters, Kylie, missus Happy Families. By now, you
(00:28):
would probably be well aware if you listened to a
podcast or follow us on social media, that we've had
a pretty rough week. Yesterday's podcast was one of the
most important conversations we may have ever had on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I hope that you've got a lot from it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
When I posted about my nephew's death last week, we
were overwhelmed with the incredible volume of support but also
grief that was shown on those social media platforms, on
Facebook and on Instagram. And one thing that we saw
(01:02):
more than perhaps anything, is just how many people have
been touched by profound loss through suicide. Many, many, many
people said to us, how do we talk to our
kids about this? And so that's what we're going to
attempt to answer in today's conversation and because we try
on this podcast to make this a podcast for time
(01:25):
poor parents who do just want answers. Now, we're going
to do our best to move through this at a
pace that is respectful and considered, but that also is
very much about getting straight to the point.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I think this is a conversation that nobody wants to
be having with anyone, but especially your children. And you
think about your job as a parent, it's to protect
them and to have to open their eyes and hearts
up to just the pain of these kinds of conversations.
It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So we've had several of these conversations over the last
few days, as you would probably be aware, with that
many kids and that many questions, so let's dive into it.
Lots of people have been asking. And I should also
mention the principles that we're sharing will apply across the
board when it comes to talking about profound loss and
specifically suicide with your children. But the closer you are
(02:17):
to the pain and the grief, the more these things
will be helpful. If you are at a distance and
it's a friend of a friend or your children over
here something, then you'll probably be able to go a
lot lighter on the things that we're talking about. Nevertheless,
the same principles will apply, and it will be up
to you as a parent to use your discretion to
step into these conversations wisely and with so much compassion.
(02:41):
The first thing that I want to emphasize is that
we have limited research evidence on how to conduct these conversations,
specifically on this topic. Now, there's plenty of research out
there about how to have difficult conversations, and that's what
we're primarily going to lean on. There is only a
little bit of evidence that's out there is not particularly strong,
and I guess we can be grateful for that. If
there's no need to have the conversation, I would actually
(03:04):
discourage you from having one. And there are plenty of
times where there might not be a need. For example,
there may be considerable distance between the person who has
died and your child. They may not even be aware
of them. Or there may be just a cursory discussion
where we can say, yes, we're really sad because a
friend of ours has passed away, has died, and that's
(03:26):
kind of all you need to do when there is distance.
As the relationship gets closer, that's when we obviously begin
to address it. I guess the other thing that I'd
say as a preliminary discussion point is we really want
to keep at level.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Suicide can provoke.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Very strong reactions in us, and even in our children.
It seems that there's a visceral and immediately recognized understanding
that what we're talking about is serious.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I think, from my end, the most important thing for
me was that our relationships with children are built on trust,
and that while these conversations are really hard, honesty is
really important.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I've always defined trust as believing that the other person
is going to act in your best interests, and in
conversations like these, our children need to really believe that
we are going to act in their best interests. And
all of the research evidence from places like the National
Scent of Childhood Grief. I've looked up so many research
articles and so many tip sheets and fact sheets on this,
(04:27):
and every single university, every single psychology clinic, everyone who's
out there consistently says honesty is the best policy.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I think it's showing our children that we actually honor
the questions that they have. They need to know that
as their parents, we're willing to go to the hard
places to help them understand the world better.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
The real trick is doing it in an age appropriate way.
It has to be developmentally appropriate. So let's talk about
some developmental realities here. We'll start with youngest children for
young children, and I'm talking about kids under six or seven.
So when we've got two and three and four year olds,
you can almost say nothing. I mean literally, they're just
(05:10):
not going to be attentive enough and picking up on
it unless it's somebody within their immediate family or somebody
that they were extremely close to. Let's assume though, that
it is somebody that they're extremely close to keep it
simple and go with what I call the fire hose principle.
I've shared this in a variety of different contexts over
the years on the podcast and elsewhere, but essentially, if
(05:31):
somebody's thirsty, it would be rare that we would hand
them the fire hose, tell them to open up their mouth,
and then crank that bad boy up. That's going to
cause potentially a whole lot of damage, and it's certainly
going to do anything except quench their first. Our job
as parents is not to tell them everything, and the
younger they are, the more this principle applies, But even
(05:53):
as they get older, we still need to be judicious
and discerning in.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
What we say.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Rather than turning on the fire hosey. It's much better
when somebody says I'm thirsty to give them a glass
of water, and once they've completed that glass of water,
simply to say would you like any more water? And
refill it or give them a half a cup or
whatever it.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Is that they need.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
When it comes to talking about difficult topics, and particularly
a topic such as suicide, the fire hose principle applies.
Give them a sip, and if they ask for another sip,
let them have that. Our children will have questions. We
should answer those questions in a developmentally appropriate way to
the degree that they're curious. But no further, they may
say something like what does dead mean? I mean, if
(06:37):
they're young enough, they may not. Children don't understand the
permanency of death, especially when they're around that three or
four age group. It's once they get four or five, six, yeah,
when they come back. And that's why it's important that
we don't use phrases like gone to sleep or gone away.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We need to be much more concrete.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
In fact, when I wrote the article that went on
to social media and was obviously seen by so many
people after it was partly the hardest sentence for me
to write and then to read and to have my
parents and my siblings and my nieces and nephews read,
was the Three Woods.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Because he's dead.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And yet those words matter in being straightforward and simple
and truthful with our kids. If they're young, you might say,
do you know what being dead means? And you can
give them examples of a pet that died, or perhaps
grandparents or an auntie or uncle that died, but they
need to understand what dead means. And when it comes
to something like suicide, it's completely appropriate for you to
(07:34):
say something like, this person had a disease in their
head and they died. It's very sad. Now, a statement
like that is truthful. We know that things like depression
are diseases of the mind, and when we say that
for a young child, that can often be enough. Now,
as they get older, if that stays with them and
they contemplate it, they may come back to us and say,
(07:55):
how what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (07:57):
What does a disease in my head mean?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Can I get a disease in my head, and then
they're looking more for empathy than they are looking for definite,
clear answers, and they need a little bit of both.
In those circumstances, we want to answer them honestly, but
with lots of empathy. But for young children, those would
be my central points. Keep it really simple, use the
principle of the fire hose, make sure that they understand
(08:18):
what being dead means, and emphasize that this person had
a disease in their head and they died, and everybody's
very sad about that.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I was kind of hoping that that's what we'd get
away with our nine year old when we received the
devastating news last week, but that wasn't the case. When
we first found out, we just let her know that
her cousin had passed away and left it at that,
and she was okay. But as the day wore on
and the conversations between her sisters and us continued and
(08:50):
the gravity of the loss was felt, she knew that
this was actually different. It was different, a difference to
the grief that we were experiencing in our home, and
sitting around the dinner table, she wanted to know what happened,
and she actually asked how did he die? And that
(09:12):
was a really hard conversation to have, but I knew
that in spite of the fact that I wanted to
protect her, I actually needed to be honest with her.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So let's build on what we've talked about. For young children,
those same principles apply. We want to keep it simple,
we want to use the principle of the fire hose,
and we want to make sure that they understand the
meanings of the words. You were masterful. As we sat
around the dining table last Monday night, the first thing
that we did was we said to the children, everybody's
(09:42):
had a pretty rough day. It's been a really, really
bumpy day for us emotionally. Does anybody have any questions?
And the first question to come up came from Emily
middle childhood. We're talking about kids seven to twelve. She's
right in the center of that, age nine, and she's said,
how did he die? And that's when you, instead of
(10:04):
just diving in and answering the question, asked her a question,
have you ever heard of suicide? Do you know what
suicide means? She was hesitant and unsure, but she took
a guess and she was right. She didn't know what
it meant, and so we began a conversation about how
that was how Logan had died.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
But then she wanted more detail. She said, how did
he do it?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
And once again, based on all the very best research
that I can find, and based on the best advice
from the very best advisory groups that exists, we decided
that honesty was the best policy. And I took a
hugely deep breath. I was walking around the table at
the time and walking past you, and I put my
hand on your shoulder and thought, oh, no, how do
we do this? And you stepped straight in and, in
(10:49):
minor detail, without giving anything more than a gentle little
sip of water to her metaphorically, you explained enough, at
which point her desire for information was satisfied. She didn't
ask for any more, and we were able to move
the conversation forward from there. I think when it comes
(11:10):
to middle childhood and even with teenagers, those are going
to be the best principles for us to lean on.
It's the fire hose principle. It's keeping it simple, it's
answering questions to the degree to which they're curious, offering
lots of empathy and making sure that they understand with
(11:31):
everything that we've said, let's run through a handful of
general points. This may be a little bit repetitive, but
it's worth doing it, and there's definitely some ideas that
we haven't shared so far. The first one, keep it simple.
The second one operate on the principle of the fire hose.
The third one. If they ask why, tell them, but
(11:52):
keep it age appropriate. They don't need to know all
of the skeletons in the closet, just the basics, and
the more general you can be safe, you'll be particularly
when they're young. So the person had a disease in
their head and they died and it's very sad. Is
a wonderful start. If they say, what do you mean,
we might have a conversation about depression or I mean,
(12:12):
it's different in every family. There might have been something
going on in terms of money problems or relationship problems
or whatever, but we want to try to protect our
children and our broader family to the degree that that's
responsible behavior. Next, if they ask how, the National Scent
of Childhood Grief says to tell them, but to keep
(12:34):
it age appropriate. Next, remember that talking about it actually
helps to dispel misinformation and stigma, and rather than creating
ideas in our children's head. Research indicates that it creates
a safe space to ask questions. And so you want
to encourage your children to ask questions at any time
(12:56):
and to talk with you at any time. And that's
something that we've done all week long, for the last
week and a half, that's all we've done.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
The powerful thing about being able to have conversations with
your kids, honest, heartfelt conversations with them, is that they
are so perceptive. And as the week has gone on,
the emotions have varied, and it varied in intensity and
(13:25):
have been different from day to day. You know, you
talk about the stages of grief. There's been anchor, there's
been deep, deep sadness, there's been just a lot of
hurt and pain. And because of those honest conversations, I
think that the children haven't felt afraid of them because
(13:48):
they've understood the depth and the immensity of the situation,
even if they don't fully understand it, because we were
honest with them. When we're not able to have those
conversations with our kids, they're left wondering and they fill
in the gaps of what they think's going on, and
(14:08):
that's never helpful for anyone.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Let me share a couple of other ideas that matter
a lot. Now I've already said this, but I want
to reemphasize at research shows that talking about it safely
doesn't exacerbate or amplify risk. In fact, you and I
have had a very very clear conversation with our kids,
very very clear, and one thing that we did was
I shared a story about how early in our marriage
we didn't have any kind of disagreement or argument in
(14:32):
our marriage for at least nine months, ten months, but
somewhere towards the end of the first year of our marriage,
we had our first argument, our first blow up, and
we'd never had one before, and so I don't know
how big it actually was, but it felt like a doozy.
And during the course of that argument, what twenty five
years ago now, you said something about getting divorced, and
(14:53):
I remember in that moment I said to you something
along the lines of, we can never use that word
in the context of this relationship. It's off the table.
It's not an option. We don't joke about it, and
we absolutely don't threaten it. We are committed to one another.
We love one another, and we will work this out. Now,
in hindsight, I don't necessarily believe that entirely. If somebody
is in a relationship that is not safe, then divorce
(15:16):
has to be an option. In fact, the reason the
divorce exists is so that we can make sure that
we do treat each other well. But I think that
taking it off the table change the nature of our relationship.
We looked at the decision we'd made to be married
as irreversible, and because we knew that we were safe together,
it was good that it was irreversible. We shared that
(15:38):
with our children one at a time, as we sat
with them and talked about Logan's death and we talked
about suicide. We said that in the same way that
it's fine to use the word divorce, it's fine to
talk about the concept of divorce and even to talk
about people who have been divorced. In the context of
our relationship, we don't talk about that as being an option,
because we love each other and we will work through
(15:59):
the challenge that we have when they arise. Similarly, when
it comes to suicide, it's perfectly fine to say the word.
It's also perfectly reasonable to talk about it, ask about it,
learn about it. But we need to be really clear
that it has to come off the table as an
option when life gets hard. It has to come off
the table as something that we would ever contemplate when
(16:21):
we don't know how to resolve the problems that we're facing.
It can't be an option. Now that sounds in some
ways like a terribly harsh thing to say. It sounds
like it's a confronting and provocative thing to say. But
the more I've thought about it, and I've actually shared
this with a couple of friends who are psychologists and
asked them what they thought, and they agreed, absolutely, this
(16:41):
is something that we want to take off the table.
We do not want our kids, our teenager is running
around thinking that it's an option because we don't need
this heartache and every problem is solvable. There is a
way through every challenge that we or our children might experience,
and that's the message that we need to get through
to them.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It's not an option. Take it off the table.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Because the tsunami of grief that it doesn't just ripple out,
It sweeps across the family and friends and the communities
that are affected is just insurmountable in so many ways,
it is so extraordinarily large.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I think the only other thing we haven't really talked
about is just acknowledging that our kids are going to
have different emotions around it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And in an hour, they're going to have different emotions,
let alone across a week and a half.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
As sometimes it's not actually helpful to ask them how
they're feeling, because just like there've been multiple times this
week where I haven't really understood what I'm feeling, there's
just so much emotion. Our kids are trying to work
this out and understand it. So they just need to
know that there's a safe place to have a cry,
(17:48):
have a hug, and not have to explain themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
The kids had a remote control war the other day,
like literally a big war in the living room over
who got to hold the remote control. They weren't even
changing the channels, they weren't changing anything, they just want
to They just fought over who was going to hold
the remote. And I don't think that that misbehavior was
really about the remote control. I think it was about
the pent up emotion and the challenges and the difficulties
they're associated with going through this grieving process, recognizing that
(18:14):
emotion it's a contagious, Recognizing that sometimes kids don't want
to talk, sometimes they don't know how they're feeling. Sometimes
we don't, that there may be some misbehavior. Those things
are all going to be important in navigating this very,
very tricky and challenging time.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
And somehow, in spite of our own grief, we have
to find a way to be soft, softer on ourselves
and soft on our kids as they start to work
through everything together.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Tomorrow in our Older Better Tomorrow episode, it's going to
be short, but we're going to talk specifically about that
very thing and why it's so important, and what the
last ten or twelve days have taught us as a
family about kindness and love and goodness. I hope that
you'll join us for a conversation that I think will
(19:07):
make your family think about so much about what you
do so differently. Thank you so much for joining us
in a fairly somber conversation about a very difficult topic.
We hope that it has been helpful, and we hope
that it gives you some guidance as to how you
can navigate these tricky moments in your own Homes and Families.
As always, we appreciate so much the work of both
(19:28):
Justin rale And our producer, and Craig Bruce, our executive producer,
for the work that they do on making the Happy
Families podcast available to you. If you'd like more information
about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com dot
a you and if anything that we've talked about today
has created any challenges for you that you need to
talk about, please talk to somebody. You can google all
(19:50):
kinds of assistance lines, if you jump online, or just
pick up the phone and ring somebody you love and trust.
It's the Happy Family's podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Today's conversation is not a conversation for kids. We encourage
parents to make sure that you're aware of who's listening
to this discussion and make sure that only mature years
are participating in today's Happy Families podcasts. Hello, my name's Sobs.
Justin course, I'm here with my wife and mom to
our six daughters, Kylie, missus Happy Families. By now, you
(00:28):
would probably be well aware if you listened to a
podcast or follow us on social media, that we've had
a pretty rough week. Yesterday's podcast was one of the
most important conversations we may have ever had on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
I hope that you've got a lot from it.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
When I posted about my nephew's death last week, we
were overwhelmed with the incredible volume of support but also
grief that was shown on those social media platforms, on
Facebook and on Instagram. And one thing that we saw
(01:02):
more than perhaps anything, is just how many people have
been touched by profound loss through suicide. Many, many, many
people said to us, how do we talk to our
kids about this? And so that's what we're going to
attempt to answer in today's conversation and because we try
on this podcast to make this a podcast for time
(01:25):
poor parents who do just want answers. Now, we're going
to do our best to move through this at a
pace that is respectful and considered, but that also is
very much about getting straight to the point.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
I think this is a conversation that nobody wants to
be having with anyone, but especially your children. And you
think about your job as a parent, it's to protect
them and to have to open their eyes and hearts
up to just the pain of these kinds of conversations.
It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So we've had several of these conversations over the last
few days, as you would probably be aware, with that
many kids and that many questions, so let's dive into it.
Lots of people have been asking. And I should also
mention the principles that we're sharing will apply across the
board when it comes to talking about profound loss and
specifically suicide with your children. But the closer you are
(02:17):
to the pain and the grief, the more these things
will be helpful. If you are at a distance and
it's a friend of a friend or your children over
here something, then you'll probably be able to go a
lot lighter on the things that we're talking about. Nevertheless,
the same principles will apply, and it will be up
to you as a parent to use your discretion to
step into these conversations wisely and with so much compassion.
(02:41):
The first thing that I want to emphasize is that
we have limited research evidence on how to conduct these conversations,
specifically on this topic. Now, there's plenty of research out
there about how to have difficult conversations, and that's what
we're primarily going to lean on. There is only a
little bit of evidence that's out there is not particularly strong,
and I guess we can be grateful for that. If
there's no need to have the conversation, I would actually
(03:04):
discourage you from having one. And there are plenty of
times where there might not be a need. For example,
there may be considerable distance between the person who has
died and your child. They may not even be aware
of them. Or there may be just a cursory discussion
where we can say, yes, we're really sad because a
friend of ours has passed away, has died, and that's
(03:26):
kind of all you need to do when there is distance.
As the relationship gets closer, that's when we obviously begin
to address it. I guess the other thing that I'd
say as a preliminary discussion point is we really want
to keep at level.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Suicide can provoke.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Very strong reactions in us, and even in our children.
It seems that there's a visceral and immediately recognized understanding
that what we're talking about is serious.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
I think, from my end, the most important thing for
me was that our relationships with children are built on trust,
and that while these conversations are really hard, honesty is
really important.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I've always defined trust as believing that the other person
is going to act in your best interests, and in
conversations like these, our children need to really believe that
we are going to act in their best interests. And
all of the research evidence from places like the National
Scent of Childhood Grief. I've looked up so many research
articles and so many tip sheets and fact sheets on this,
(04:27):
and every single university, every single psychology clinic, everyone who's
out there consistently says honesty is the best policy.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I think it's showing our children that we actually honor
the questions that they have. They need to know that
as their parents, we're willing to go to the hard
places to help them understand the world better.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
The real trick is doing it in an age appropriate way.
It has to be developmentally appropriate. So let's talk about
some developmental realities here. We'll start with youngest children for
young children, and I'm talking about kids under six or seven.
So when we've got two and three and four year olds,
you can almost say nothing. I mean literally, they're just
(05:10):
not going to be attentive enough and picking up on
it unless it's somebody within their immediate family or somebody
that they were extremely close to. Let's assume though, that
it is somebody that they're extremely close to keep it
simple and go with what I call the fire hose principle.
I've shared this in a variety of different contexts over
the years on the podcast and elsewhere, but essentially, if
(05:31):
somebody's thirsty, it would be rare that we would hand
them the fire hose, tell them to open up their mouth,
and then crank that bad boy up. That's going to
cause potentially a whole lot of damage, and it's certainly
going to do anything except quench their first. Our job
as parents is not to tell them everything, and the
younger they are, the more this principle applies, But even
(05:53):
as they get older, we still need to be judicious
and discerning in.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
What we say.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Rather than turning on the fire hosey. It's much better
when somebody says I'm thirsty to give them a glass
of water, and once they've completed that glass of water,
simply to say would you like any more water? And
refill it or give them a half a cup or
whatever it.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Is that they need.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
When it comes to talking about difficult topics, and particularly
a topic such as suicide, the fire hose principle applies.
Give them a sip, and if they ask for another sip,
let them have that. Our children will have questions. We
should answer those questions in a developmentally appropriate way to
the degree that they're curious. But no further, they may
say something like what does dead mean? I mean, if
(06:37):
they're young enough, they may not. Children don't understand the
permanency of death, especially when they're around that three or
four age group. It's once they get four or five, six, yeah,
when they come back. And that's why it's important that
we don't use phrases like gone to sleep or gone away.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We need to be much more concrete.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
In fact, when I wrote the article that went on
to social media and was obviously seen by so many
people after it was partly the hardest sentence for me
to write and then to read and to have my
parents and my siblings and my nieces and nephews read,
was the Three Woods.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Because he's dead.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And yet those words matter in being straightforward and simple
and truthful with our kids. If they're young, you might say,
do you know what being dead means? And you can
give them examples of a pet that died, or perhaps
grandparents or an auntie or uncle that died, but they
need to understand what dead means. And when it comes
to something like suicide, it's completely appropriate for you to
(07:34):
say something like, this person had a disease in their
head and they died. It's very sad. Now, a statement
like that is truthful. We know that things like depression
are diseases of the mind, and when we say that
for a young child, that can often be enough. Now,
as they get older, if that stays with them and
they contemplate it, they may come back to us and say,
(07:55):
how what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (07:57):
What does a disease in my head mean?
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Can I get a disease in my head, and then
they're looking more for empathy than they are looking for definite,
clear answers, and they need a little bit of both.
In those circumstances, we want to answer them honestly, but
with lots of empathy. But for young children, those would
be my central points. Keep it really simple, use the
principle of the fire hose, make sure that they understand
(08:18):
what being dead means, and emphasize that this person had
a disease in their head and they died, and everybody's
very sad about that.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
I was kind of hoping that that's what we'd get
away with our nine year old when we received the
devastating news last week, but that wasn't the case. When
we first found out, we just let her know that
her cousin had passed away and left it at that,
and she was okay. But as the day wore on
and the conversations between her sisters and us continued and
(08:50):
the gravity of the loss was felt, she knew that
this was actually different. It was different, a difference to
the grief that we were experiencing in our home, and
sitting around the dinner table, she wanted to know what happened,
and she actually asked how did he die? And that
(09:12):
was a really hard conversation to have, but I knew
that in spite of the fact that I wanted to
protect her, I actually needed to be honest with her.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
So let's build on what we've talked about. For young children,
those same principles apply. We want to keep it simple,
we want to use the principle of the fire hose,
and we want to make sure that they understand the
meanings of the words. You were masterful. As we sat
around the dining table last Monday night, the first thing
that we did was we said to the children, everybody's
(09:42):
had a pretty rough day. It's been a really, really
bumpy day for us emotionally. Does anybody have any questions?
And the first question to come up came from Emily
middle childhood. We're talking about kids seven to twelve. She's
right in the center of that, age nine, and she's said,
how did he die? And that's when you, instead of
(10:04):
just diving in and answering the question, asked her a question,
have you ever heard of suicide? Do you know what
suicide means? She was hesitant and unsure, but she took
a guess and she was right. She didn't know what
it meant, and so we began a conversation about how
that was how Logan had died.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
But then she wanted more detail. She said, how did
he do it?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
And once again, based on all the very best research
that I can find, and based on the best advice
from the very best advisory groups that exists, we decided
that honesty was the best policy. And I took a
hugely deep breath. I was walking around the table at
the time and walking past you, and I put my
hand on your shoulder and thought, oh, no, how do
we do this? And you stepped straight in and, in
(10:49):
minor detail, without giving anything more than a gentle little
sip of water to her metaphorically, you explained enough, at
which point her desire for information was satisfied. She didn't
ask for any more, and we were able to move
the conversation forward from there. I think when it comes
(11:10):
to middle childhood and even with teenagers, those are going
to be the best principles for us to lean on.
It's the fire hose principle. It's keeping it simple, it's
answering questions to the degree to which they're curious, offering
lots of empathy and making sure that they understand with
(11:31):
everything that we've said, let's run through a handful of
general points. This may be a little bit repetitive, but
it's worth doing it, and there's definitely some ideas that
we haven't shared so far. The first one, keep it simple.
The second one operate on the principle of the fire hose.
The third one. If they ask why, tell them, but
(11:52):
keep it age appropriate. They don't need to know all
of the skeletons in the closet, just the basics, and
the more general you can be safe, you'll be particularly
when they're young. So the person had a disease in
their head and they died and it's very sad. Is
a wonderful start. If they say, what do you mean,
we might have a conversation about depression or I mean,
(12:12):
it's different in every family. There might have been something
going on in terms of money problems or relationship problems
or whatever, but we want to try to protect our
children and our broader family to the degree that that's
responsible behavior. Next, if they ask how, the National Scent
of Childhood Grief says to tell them, but to keep
(12:34):
it age appropriate. Next, remember that talking about it actually
helps to dispel misinformation and stigma, and rather than creating
ideas in our children's head. Research indicates that it creates
a safe space to ask questions. And so you want
to encourage your children to ask questions at any time
(12:56):
and to talk with you at any time. And that's
something that we've done all week long, for the last
week and a half, that's all we've done.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
The powerful thing about being able to have conversations with
your kids, honest, heartfelt conversations with them, is that they
are so perceptive. And as the week has gone on,
the emotions have varied, and it varied in intensity and
(13:25):
have been different from day to day. You know, you
talk about the stages of grief. There's been anchor, there's
been deep, deep sadness, there's been just a lot of
hurt and pain. And because of those honest conversations, I
think that the children haven't felt afraid of them because
(13:48):
they've understood the depth and the immensity of the situation,
even if they don't fully understand it, because we were
honest with them. When we're not able to have those
conversations with our kids, they're left wondering and they fill
in the gaps of what they think's going on, and
(14:08):
that's never helpful for anyone.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
Let me share a couple of other ideas that matter
a lot. Now I've already said this, but I want
to reemphasize at research shows that talking about it safely
doesn't exacerbate or amplify risk. In fact, you and I
have had a very very clear conversation with our kids,
very very clear, and one thing that we did was
I shared a story about how early in our marriage
we didn't have any kind of disagreement or argument in
(14:32):
our marriage for at least nine months, ten months, but
somewhere towards the end of the first year of our marriage,
we had our first argument, our first blow up, and
we'd never had one before, and so I don't know
how big it actually was, but it felt like a doozy.
And during the course of that argument, what twenty five
years ago now, you said something about getting divorced, and
(14:53):
I remember in that moment I said to you something
along the lines of, we can never use that word
in the context of this relationship. It's off the table.
It's not an option. We don't joke about it, and
we absolutely don't threaten it. We are committed to one another.
We love one another, and we will work this out. Now,
in hindsight, I don't necessarily believe that entirely. If somebody
is in a relationship that is not safe, then divorce
(15:16):
has to be an option. In fact, the reason the
divorce exists is so that we can make sure that
we do treat each other well. But I think that
taking it off the table change the nature of our relationship.
We looked at the decision we'd made to be married
as irreversible, and because we knew that we were safe together,
it was good that it was irreversible. We shared that
(15:38):
with our children one at a time, as we sat
with them and talked about Logan's death and we talked
about suicide. We said that in the same way that
it's fine to use the word divorce, it's fine to
talk about the concept of divorce and even to talk
about people who have been divorced. In the context of
our relationship, we don't talk about that as being an option,
because we love each other and we will work through
(15:59):
the challenge that we have when they arise. Similarly, when
it comes to suicide, it's perfectly fine to say the word.
It's also perfectly reasonable to talk about it, ask about it,
learn about it. But we need to be really clear
that it has to come off the table as an
option when life gets hard. It has to come off
the table as something that we would ever contemplate when
(16:21):
we don't know how to resolve the problems that we're facing.
It can't be an option. Now that sounds in some
ways like a terribly harsh thing to say. It sounds
like it's a confronting and provocative thing to say. But
the more I've thought about it, and I've actually shared
this with a couple of friends who are psychologists and
asked them what they thought, and they agreed, absolutely, this
(16:41):
is something that we want to take off the table.
We do not want our kids, our teenager is running
around thinking that it's an option because we don't need
this heartache and every problem is solvable. There is a
way through every challenge that we or our children might experience,
and that's the message that we need to get through
to them.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
It's not an option. Take it off the table.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Because the tsunami of grief that it doesn't just ripple out,
It sweeps across the family and friends and the communities
that are affected is just insurmountable in so many ways,
it is so extraordinarily large.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
I think the only other thing we haven't really talked
about is just acknowledging that our kids are going to
have different emotions around it.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
And in an hour, they're going to have different emotions,
let alone across a week and a half.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
As sometimes it's not actually helpful to ask them how
they're feeling, because just like there've been multiple times this
week where I haven't really understood what I'm feeling, there's
just so much emotion. Our kids are trying to work
this out and understand it. So they just need to
know that there's a safe place to have a cry,
(17:48):
have a hug, and not have to explain themselves.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
The kids had a remote control war the other day,
like literally a big war in the living room over
who got to hold the remote control. They weren't even
changing the channels, they weren't changing anything, they just want
to They just fought over who was going to hold
the remote. And I don't think that that misbehavior was
really about the remote control. I think it was about
the pent up emotion and the challenges and the difficulties
they're associated with going through this grieving process, recognizing that
(18:14):
emotion it's a contagious, Recognizing that sometimes kids don't want
to talk, sometimes they don't know how they're feeling. Sometimes
we don't, that there may be some misbehavior. Those things
are all going to be important in navigating this very,
very tricky and challenging time.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
And somehow, in spite of our own grief, we have
to find a way to be soft, softer on ourselves
and soft on our kids as they start to work
through everything together.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Tomorrow in our Older Better Tomorrow episode, it's going to
be short, but we're going to talk specifically about that
very thing and why it's so important, and what the
last ten or twelve days have taught us as a
family about kindness and love and goodness. I hope that
you'll join us for a conversation that I think will
(19:07):
make your family think about so much about what you
do so differently. Thank you so much for joining us
in a fairly somber conversation about a very difficult topic.
We hope that it has been helpful, and we hope
that it gives you some guidance as to how you
can navigate these tricky moments in your own Homes and Families.
As always, we appreciate so much the work of both
(19:28):
Justin rale And our producer, and Craig Bruce, our executive producer,
for the work that they do on making the Happy
Families podcast available to you. If you'd like more information
about making your family happier, visit happyfamilies dot com dot
a you and if anything that we've talked about today
has created any challenges for you that you need to
talk about, please talk to somebody. You can google all
(19:50):
kinds of assistance lines, if you jump online, or just
pick up the phone and ring somebody you love and trust.
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