November 8, 2023 • 30 mins
Welcome to Unbreakable! A mental health podcast hosted by Fox NFL Insider Jay Glazer. On today’s episode, Jay is joined by the incredibly brave and resilient Shoshana Johnson, the first ever African American female POW from the US Military and the actual marine who pulled her out of the place Saddam’s guards were keeping her, the amazingly courageous Curney Russell. Twenty years later, Johnson and Russell have been reunited for an exclusive, two-part conversation. It’s just the second time they have seen each other since her rescue in 2003.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is Unbreakable with Jay Glacier, a mental health podcast
helping you out of the gray and into the blue.
Now here's Jay Glacier.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome into Unbreakable, a mental health podcast with Jay Glazer.
I'm Jay Glazier, and today is a special show.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Sorry, Veterans Day week show.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You all know how invested I am into the military
and our veterans. And today is the best guests I've
ever had, Coolest guests I've ever had, most amazing story
I have ever heard in my life. And I do
have to get a little housekeeping out of the way
here first. If you're like many people, you will be
surprised to learn that one in five adults in this
country experienced mental illness last year. You get far too
(00:46):
many fail to receive the support they need. Carolin Behavioral
Health is doing something about it. They understand that behavioral
health is a key part of whole health, delivering compassionate
care that treats physical, mental, emotional, and social needs and
tandem Carolin behavioral health raising the quality of life through
empathy and action. All right, Welcome in again to Unbreakable,
mental health podcast with Jay Glazer.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Special Veterans Day Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I never get guests starstruck or words are hard to
come by in the last I don't know thirty years
of doing this and the career I've in except for
one time in my life.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
That's the other time I've.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Met these two people and don't know what I'm going
to do injustice introducing them. But folks, you want to
be on this journey with us tonight because it's the
most incredible story of love, first, perseverance, courage, and so
many other adjectives that you all will come up with
along this journey.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I'm so grateful they're here with me. Let me lay
this out correctly.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Here. There's two guests, and we've never done this before,
all right, Sushana Johnson, who's the first African American female
POW that America has ever had, and the marine that
rescued her in Iraq.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Curnie Russell. Welcome both to Unbreakable. So there's so many
ways we could start.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I met you both on the Zoom for MVP charity
found Emerging vets and Players, and that's the first time
you had ever seen each other, right since Kearnie, you
guys rescued Shoshana.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Yeah, yeah, that was the first time it was. It's
kind of weird that being the first time. Actually, now
that I think about.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It, is this the second time? Did you choose to touch?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
This is the second time?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Wow? Really?
Speaker 5 (02:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So all right, first of all, let's go back, Shoshana,
because it's two different ways.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Shashana, I want you to tell me your.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Version of what had happened in those days that day
when Kearnie and his crew rescued you, and then I
want Kearnie for you to chime in, because you obviously
had a version from the outside.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
A totally different way of seeing it. Shoshana, take it away.
Speaker 6 (02:49):
I remember it was a Sunday morning.
Speaker 7 (02:51):
I don't know if we're really keeping track or I remember,
or we figured out it was Sunday afterwards, and our
guards were given us breakfast.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
How long have you been in captivity at that point?
Speaker 6 (03:00):
Twenty two days?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Twenty two days? And how did you get captured in
the first place?
Speaker 7 (03:06):
We were captured in the ambush in a Nazaria Iraq. Wow,
we lost eleven who was six of us captured that
survived the captivity? Lori am Pistolla was captured alive and
she died of her injuries.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
Soderant. Donald Walters was captured and died of injuries.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Also, wow, So you get captured, and again, forgive me
because it's you know, I'm used to interview on football
players and fighters and all this, and you're.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
A different type of fighter. So forgive me if I
have a question that's ignorant or anything like that. You
get captured, what's going for your mind?
Speaker 6 (03:43):
First of all, you worry about the others. I mean,
I'm not in it by myself. There's my fellow soldiers
and so forth.
Speaker 7 (03:50):
So you you wonder who else got injured, who's dead,
and so forth.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
And then you start to wonder and are you going
to make it through this?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Keep you separated?
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (04:02):
Now, the way they have ambush happened. They broke down
our convoy into three parts. I was part of the
last part where we got captured. I don't know if
the rest of the convoy got out. I didn't find
that out until the day we were rescued and we
got to Doha and they broke down to us exactly
who died and who made it out. So part of
(04:24):
that we didn't know. For all of our captivity, we
knew about Lynch. We knew about LORII, but we didn't
know if they had survived or died or whatsoever. Especially Jessica.
I knew that she had been injured and taken to
the hospital in in Nazaria. I didn't know if she
had survived what happened, and I thought Lourie was dead.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Wow. So when they take where do they bring you
and put you in?
Speaker 7 (04:47):
They actually took us to Baghdad. And you know, unfortunately,
with the stuff that recently happened in the Middle East,
a lot of that stuff brought up some really intense
memories because a lot of the videos where they would
take the hostages out and show them off, they did
the exact thing thing to us. Wow, they did the
(05:09):
exact same thing. I mean, we're in a vehicle. They
would stop in different cities and show us off. You know,
we got spit on, we got slapped, and so forth,
as they took us from a nazarea to Baghdad. So lately,
seeing a lot of those images brought back a whole
lot into my head about those days. Sometimes it's good
(05:30):
because it's nice to realize where you are right now
and how well you're doing, but it also brings up
stuff like, oh, my gosh, I had forgotten about that
particular incident or you know, stuff like that, and it
makes it very intense.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
When it's happening. Are you trying to just reconcile like
it's going to take a while. Am I going to
live around?
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I can die? How do I survive? Like? How are you?
What's your survival? I guess tactics between the years and
the early point of.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
That you just hope, you know.
Speaker 7 (05:58):
I mean, there's always a time, Oh, this is it,
I'm going to dine, and then you're like nope, nope.
I mean within a minute, you know, you go back
and forth and talking to yourself and within a minute
you're like, no, this is it, I'm going to dine.
Then you're like nope, nope, nope. I made it this far.
There's a reason, you know, and you just hold on
as best as you can, and that's all you can do.
I had no control over anything. I had no control
whether I went to the bathroom where you know, whether
(06:20):
you ate, whether you slept, you know, and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
No control.
Speaker 7 (06:25):
All you can do is hope, pray, I mean, if
you have a sense of faith or anything like that,
and hold on, you know, I remember I tell this
story all the time when I was younger, back in
the day. Kernie won't remember this because he too young.
They used to have TV movies, Movie of the Weeks
and stuff like that. You know now they have Netflix
(06:47):
and all. It was TV and movie Week and there
was a one called Showgun. It was a mini series
and stuff like that. Part of Showgun, there was a
point where a guy like literally got so preyed he
had a heart attack and dropped it. I remember asking
my mom, Oh my god, what happened mom? She was
he had a heart attack. He got so scared. As
life goes on, things happen and everything you watch the
Lifetime movies and these dramatic things happen to these women,
(07:10):
and I'm like, that's not me. If it came up
to me, I have a heart attack and die, just
like the dude and Showgun. So here I am in
the ambush. I'm waiting to have my heart attack and
die because I'm terrified. But the heart attack doesn't come.
So it's kind of realization. I got to lift through this.
I'm gonna have to, you know, go day by day,
(07:31):
minute by minute. And that's the realization and It also
teaches you you don't know how strong you are until
you have to be.
Speaker 6 (07:40):
I sure thought I was going I was going ready
for my heart attack. I didn't think I was tough enough.
But here I am.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So when they brought you, I don't know where they
brought you. They bring you to one place and keep
you there for twenty two days. They move you around.
Speaker 7 (07:53):
They moved us around, bag Dad. We were taking the
bag Dad. We were interrogated. Then we were put into
a cell. We were in a prison for a couple
of days, and we got moved seven times. Every time
the US got close. And we can hear it. We
can hear the bombings, we can hear them getting gunfire
and stuff like that. We were moved as the US
(08:14):
got close. Kearney and them found us in a house.
It was somebody's home.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Wow, did you know, Like were you blindfold the whole time?
Or you were aware?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Like okay, I'm in this now they're moving us here
they're moving is like how where were you?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
What was happening?
Speaker 6 (08:29):
They blindfold us when they moved us, right, we couldn't
see a thing. Lots of times they moved us at night.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
We didn't know at the time we found out late
they were moving us in a red crescent van. There
was a couple of times there were firefights going on
and they're moving us in the middle of it, and
things like that.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
How many other people were you with? And are you?
Are you in a room or you.
Speaker 7 (08:51):
They kept me separate until the last two places. We're
all separate in the beginning. I think it was like
the third or fourth place where they started to put
the men together, and then I stayed by myself until
the last two houses.
Speaker 6 (09:03):
And then they put me with the guys and it
was six guys and myself.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Now, Prennie, I want to bring you in here, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So in the days wading up and you know, Shashana said,
she's in the house. Tell us what you're told, tell
us how you guys are starting to form this mission
to go rescue Shoshana and the others.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
Sort of backtrack a little.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Actually, she mentioned Nazarea, and my memory serves me correct.
We our battalion got ambushed in Nazarea. I think they
had dubbed that ambush alley shortly after we had gone
through there. Uh, you know, so it was it was
kind of a known area and I want to say
we had gone through there prior to Shoshana and her
unit moving through there, so it was kind of like
(09:47):
a known hot area to go through. So yeah, that
that was I remember that. I remember that night pretty
pretty vividly.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
It was one of those things where we were rolling through,
you know, back going back to Nazaria, rolling through, and
then it just seemed like up to the front of
the convoy, all hell broke loose and it just trickled
all the way down and it was like, WHOA, what's
going on here? And I think that was like our
first actual real engagement, you know, none of like the
pop shots or anything like that. It was actual real
(10:15):
engagement with guys who wanted to fight back. So yeah, no,
I remember, I remember Nazarie, I remember rolling through there.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
But so back to you.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Know, we were the whole goal for us, I guess
was just get to Baghdad, you know. I remember, you know,
talking with the guys and hey, you know, we've.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Got to get the bag Dad. Once we get to.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Bagdad, this war is over and all this stuff. And
we were making really good progress going up there.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Moving north.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
I remember we had stopped kind of on the outskirts
and I want to say we'd formed Cask Force Tripoli.
Task Force Tripoli was like formed, like, hey, forget about Baghdad.
We want you guys past Bagdad. Let's go up to
Saddam's home count to Crit. Like let's get up there
and like let's show them we're up here. We're going
to fight our way all the way through. I remember
hearing some talkway we take any any you know, shots
(11:02):
in Baghdad. We just want to race straight through there.
We want to get to to Crit where that was
supposed to be the like the big fight was supposed
to be into Crit because he was, you know, Saddam
was supposed to have his uh things like the Revolution
the Revolution Guard or something like that, like that was
going to be their last stand. Like the big fight
was going to be into Crit. So like, hey, let's
get Task Force Tripoli up there as fast.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
As we can.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
And uh so, you know, we kind of just pushed
straight through Baghdad. And I want to say, like the
night prior, so there's all these rumors going around.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
To like even you know, I've done.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
You know, I went to Iraq another time after that,
in Afghanistan after that and there's always rumors that fly about,
you know, and one of the rumors was that I
think it was like the Army's third Infantry Division was
going to come leave us in place, Like once we
get up there, we're gonna you know, once we get
to to Crate, we'll fight, we'll do our thing. The
Army's third idea is going to come to leave us
and we're going home, you know. So it's like the
(11:53):
rumors are spreading and all that stuff. So we, uh,
we got outside of the city where where the uh
that rescue had gone down, and just prior to moving in,
a friend of ours, Elliott Ruiz, he had got injured,
you know, he got injured. I think it was like
a few days prior to that. And so we move
into I forget the name of the CID. Do you
remember the name of the city Shashana Tomorrow Samara, thank you.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, So we we moved.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
We moved into Samara that night and I think it
was second platoon or something like that. They had taken
some you know, they taken some shots. They had some
action going on over by the area that they were
passed to secure.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
My platoon. We had a bridge.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
It was kind of quiet that night till the following morning. Uh,
you know, we're told, hey, stop every like high profile
car that's coming through, because that's going to be the
Those are like supposedly.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Like Saddam's guys.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
You know, like if you see any high like, you know,
a nice looking, luxurious car, stop them. You know, we
got guys that need to talk to them. So we're
just doing that. It was kind of boring for us
that that morning, I remember. And then then then we
get told, hey, Battalian commander wants to talk to you guys.
So we're like, hey, the Army's third ideas here. We're
gonna be going home soon, you know. And Italian commander
(13:02):
came out and he's like, hey, look we got a
mission for you guys. You know, kind of in a nutshell,
Hey we got a mission. There's seven Americans in this
town and we're going to go get them, you know.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
And it was like, whoa, So the Army's third idea
is not here, you know. So yeah, that's kind of
how it got got brief down to us.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And I remember hearing terms during that whole you know,
push up the bagdad and stuff. It was like, hey,
you guys are weapons free, you know, not out there
just lawless, you know, shooting and stuff like that, but
military age men that depose a threat. And that was
the first time that I heard, Hey, you guys are
gonna be weapons tight on this one, you know, so
like don't shoot unless you guys are getting shot at.
(13:37):
And it was like yeah, so I was kind of like,
oh wow. And then hey, by the way, Russell, you're
the point man, you know, and I'm like, all right,
you know this is this is gonna be great, you know.
So so yeah, that was like kind of leading up to.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It, how many how many other Marines are you with
leading this rescue?
Speaker 4 (13:52):
So it was our platoon there would have been we
were light on that that deployment.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
We were real light.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
So we probably had on the ground maybe ten guys,
maybe ten guys on the ground, but.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
We had Wow.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Yeah, then that was like, you know, we had we
plused up a little for that. I remember our our
company first sergeant came out with us, you know, maybe
one or two other people, but actually guys that I was.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
With the whole time, there was probably like ten of us.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
You know, we had vehicles in support. Don't get me wrong,
you know, we had our vehicles that brought us there.
The outer courdon was set with the know platoon of vehicles.
The intercurding was set with another platoon of vehicles. But
the actual rescue for us on the ground was was
kind of light.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And how did you know where to go? Where she was?
Speaker 7 (14:34):
You?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
When? When did that information?
Speaker 4 (14:36):
That morning? Somebody that morning? Yeah, that morning, somebody had
came up. We didn't know they were there. I remember
I remember hearing that that that you know, some some
soldiers had got captured. We heard that, you know, we
heard that like, hey, some soldiers got captured. Guys like
you know, stick together type deal, you know, don't get separated.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
You know this, that and the other. It's like all right,
So we had known that.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
I knew that just the Lynch had got rescued as well,
Like we had heard that the seals had gone in
and rescued Jessica Lynch. So yeah, that morning, I think
somebody had walked up to like first or second platoon,
one of the guys like was like, hey, handed them
a piece of paper.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
Basically, it kind of like how it was told to.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Us after was like that the people who had them captive,
like their people who were holding them got so scared because.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
We were like task Force Tripoli was doing what we
were supposed to do and moving.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
So fast that they were like whoa, like we don't
want them anymore type deal.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
So yeah, that's how it was told to us after
is like you know, they basically they got scared. They're like,
you know, we weren't supposed to be there that quick.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Okay. So now sh Sean, I'm to go back to
you here.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
You get to this, so it's the day of Do
you think something's different? Do you are you starting to
feel that, man, there could be home inside here.
Speaker 7 (15:52):
It was a little different because they used to keep
us in a room where we slept and all that
kind of stuff. That they brought us out to like
a living room kind of area, and they were giving
us breakfast, you know, which was tea and a little
you know, cake thing of a jig like that, and
I was like, okay, okay, you know, and the night
(16:12):
before I remember definitely the night before, they gave us
this big meal like a virgin of amberger with some rice,
and they gave us soda and chocolate and I was like,
oh yeah, And then I thought, oh, hell, this is
my last meal?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Wow?
Speaker 7 (16:27):
You know, so I definitely was terrified, terrified, terrified.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Did you know we were there? Curious if you had
heard like that firefight that I think it was first
or second platoon had gotten into.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
No, No, I didn't remember.
Speaker 7 (16:41):
And that was kind of the scary stuff because before
we were hearing firefights, we were hearing you know, gunfire
and stuff. Once you moved to a house and you
don't hear none of that action, then how are you
going to get found? They can't come and look through
every house in Iraq, So once you start putting us
in houses, I really started to get scared.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
I was like, they can't go through everybody's house. How
are they going to find us?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know?
Speaker 7 (17:05):
And then you know, then the last meal comes into
play and I'm like, oh shit is over? Well it
was over. You know, them guys came busting down the door.
I mean you're boom and then you're get down.
Speaker 6 (17:17):
Get down?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
And so where are you when this is going? When
dining room?
Speaker 7 (17:22):
You know, we're all in the little dining room or
living room area. You know, everything's said, you know, you
sit on the floor and stuff like that and everything.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
What kind of condition. Are you are you injured? Are
you anything?
Speaker 6 (17:33):
I was shot in both legs doing the ambush.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Oh my god, but you know I was doing okay me.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
I get up and I'm like, oh, they don't mean me.
I'm American. So I'm standing there and it was Gordon Miller,
he was the LT. Came up and like pushed me
to the ground and I'm like, what.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
You know?
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Basically they get everybody on the.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Ground back back. Are you blindfolder? You're not blackholed?
Speaker 6 (18:00):
I'm not black Olvid Okay, we're giving us a breakfast.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So do you hear like boom boom? But do you
hear anything outside? You hear them creeping? Do you have
any idea or are you just shocked when this door
kicks open? But I think you also said there was
a couple you heard a couple of booms.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I think the last time we.
Speaker 7 (18:15):
Hear I heard two big booms in the door coming
down right, okay, we're coming open. I was like, oh crap,
what the hell? And then you hear clear English there's
something I get down, get down and it's clear English.
It's not accented or anything. So I'm going home. How
quickly does that trigger with you like, this is it.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I'm getting rescued.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
I mean by the time, get down, get down, And
I was like, oh my god, it's Americans.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
I'm going home.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I'm going home.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Bring me inside your mind right there, when you realize
I'm not going to be left yard I am getting rescued,
I is just joy joy.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
I mean, it's hard to explain or put that into words.
The way they came in. I mean, it's like a movie.
That's what I in my head. It's like a movie.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
You know.
Speaker 7 (19:01):
You see these guys coming in and breaking down the
door and literally pulling you out and rescuing you. This
is not something I mean, none of it was ever
anything I would ever thought i'd ever experience. But it's
still something I prayed for and hoped for. But then
to have it really happening is surreal, sur real. And
(19:23):
you know I say this. There was a twentieth anniversary
in Las Vegas. I was hoping to see Kearnie there
and he wasn't there. And I was able to tell
most a lot of them. I said, in my mind,
y'all are all six feet tall. Your shoulders are so
broad you had to turn sideways to get in the
room because you are heroes.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
You know.
Speaker 6 (19:42):
We see this stuff in TV and movies and we see.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
These make believe but I got to experience it in
real life.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
You know.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
I think America sees our men and women in uniform
as abstract, the sacrifices they make and what they do
for us. I get to see it and experience it
face to face.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
You know.
Speaker 7 (20:03):
In this moment, I saw these men come in to
pull me out at the.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Risk of their own lives. I experienced that.
Speaker 7 (20:13):
So when people talk about, oh, you know, I appreciate
you know, the soldiers and marines, ILL was like, you
have no idea, you have no concept as a soldier
that went out and did and then you have no
concept of what they're really willing to do for you.
I understand because they got that intel. General well he
(20:35):
was Colonel Clarity at the time, sent those men in
and it could have all went to hell. It could
have all well went to hell, but they did it.
And here I am and to see my daughter grow up,
and she's a pain in my ass.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
You know. I see my niece and a niece.
Speaker 7 (20:54):
That I wouldn't have got to meet because my sister
was pregnant I have two nephews that I would have
never got to meet if they weren't willing to do
this for me, you know.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
So it's humbling.
Speaker 7 (21:06):
It's very humbling, what you know somebody's willing to do
for you.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
So this is the third time you met Kearnie. When
you met him that day, what was Kurnie doing? And
then Curnie, I want you to piggyback off it and
tell us again, pick it up from your point of
view what happened right before that.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
Weren't you the one that kicked down the door?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Yeah? No, that was me, And I always tell the story.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
It's like, you know, you watch on TV and you
just watch somebody walk up and kick a door and
it just flies open. So that was the first door
that I ever really kicked. It's not like the movie.
So the first two banks you heard that was my
failed attempt at trying to get that door open.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
The third one is when it actually came open.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Yeah, we didn't have any reaching equipment at the time,
so I was the breacher for the door.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Oh my god. So that okay? But wait, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So so you talk about stress and pressure, I can't
imagine what you must be thinking with those first two kicks,
because now the element of surprise is gone, and those
first two kicks aren't successful.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
The element of surprise for us had was gone from
the beginning. Basically, somebody had walked up and handed handed
one of the guys on you know that was on
guard one of the like you know, a letter or
something like that with a makeshift map that was drawn
up with. I think they were staying in a house
number thirteen, if I'm not mistaken, and it's like the
way it's written in Arabic, it looks different, so we
(22:32):
it almost looks like a seven than like a squiggly
seven then a one or something like that. So when
we found out what we were going to do, we
go in and we're trying to you know, the the
vehicle commanders, guys driving, they're trying to get you know,
navigate off of that map that we're given and they're like,
all right, cool, it should be right up there. That's
the house. So we're in this town, you know, the
city Samara, and we go up to this house. It's
(22:55):
the wrong house, you know, reading that map, and so
we figured out, oh, yeah, it's backwards, you know they
write they write backwards.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Yeah, So we went to the wrong house at first,
and then uh, and then it was like, all right, hey,
so we're on foot. Now, you know, we had exited
the vehicle, went hit the wrong house, left that house. Really, hey,
there's nobody here, all right, So now we're on foot
and we're just trying to like think we were like
a few blocks away, so we had to move down
a few blocks. But uh, you know, everybody knows we're there,
(23:24):
Like there's no element of surprise. And I remember telling
the story years ago. This was the only thing I
could really compare it to is you start seeing people
come up on rooftops, Like the rooftops are just flooded
with people. People are coming out, and it just reminded me,
you know, I had seen you know, my senior year
of high school. I think it was I went and
I saw black Hawk Down. And that was the only
thing I can compare it to. It was like, everybody's
(23:46):
on these rooftops. It's like reminds me like that movie
block black Hawk Down.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
It's a setup.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
We're going to get ambushed, you know, because we knew
that there was Americans that were still you know, being
held pow, but we didn't know where, you know, so
in my mind, I'm like, this is an ambush. And
then running, you know, a few blocks down with somehow
we get to that right house and uh, you know,
I remember being the point man going up to that door,
and I remember that house. It was kind of weird,
(24:14):
like there was actually two front doors. It was almost
looked like a duplex if I remember correctly, but you
know their style of house. So I went up to
the door on the right, just kind of you know,
running up to that door. I get on the door.
Two kicks, it doesn't open, third kick, it finally opens.
I think there was like the door that was on
the left was open and it connected to that house.
So as I'm coming up, there was a hallway. I
(24:36):
remember as I was coming up the hallway, there's a
door to my left, and I looked to the left
and I saw somebody in there with a with a gun,
you know, a rifle.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
But it was one of our guys.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
So like I went to turn real quick, and you know,
the whole time, we're you know, yelling everybody, get down,
get down, And I went to turn to tell that
guy to get down, but he was with me. He
just found that open door, you know. So I remember,
you know, we're going in and there was the first room.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
On the right. They were all in, and you know,
we went.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
In and you know, like she said telling everybody to
get down, get down, and uh, I remember somebody saying,
you know, she had you know, we told everybody to
get down, stand up.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
If you're an American, and people.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Started standing up, and I remember somebody said to Shoshana, like,
you know, get down, and I was like, no, she's
an American.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Everybody else was lack lack of better terms, everybody else
was Caucasian. She didn't look Arabic. She looked like people
that I know, you know, so she didn't look Arabic,
and I knew, like she's like, she's an American, you know,
And yeah, it was you know, I tell the story,
you know, looking back after, you know, on it is
I think the people there were so scared.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
It's like we could have went in there with m R.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Spoons and you got them out of there, like they
you know that people that were done.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
This is not just count what you've done. This this
is again we see the movies and.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Superhero this is superhero stuff, and so don't discount it.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And that's what a lot of us tend to do.
We tend to say, oh no, no, no, yeah, but it.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Wasn't this, No, this was the greatest moment you could have,
in the biggest moment of your life and you stepping up.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
So don't discount it at all.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Yeah no, yeah, right, So all right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So now you see Sirshawn and them so YouTube. I
guess it's your third meeting since or second meeting after that, Shirshanna.
Before we kind of get into how you guys get
out when you see Karnie here, Like, what kind of
emotions is it to bring for you?
Speaker 6 (26:32):
It's surreal. It's surreal.
Speaker 7 (26:35):
First of all, I always comme in. I was like, oh,
he's a grown man now, because I remember the eighteen
year old. He was eighteen, right, yeah, yeah, And I
remember thinking at the time, because you know, at that time,
everybody who's dusty dirty, they looked a little older. Kearnie
went back to Doha with us my security blanket.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
I had a grip on that boy's arm, so, you know,
because it made me feel safe, I was okay.
Speaker 7 (27:03):
And then he went and cleaned up and everything, and
then I saw this babyface.
Speaker 6 (27:07):
I was like, oh my god, this little boy. I
was thirty. I had twelve years on him. I saw
this baby and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
Yeah. If I remember correctly.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I think that's when somebody asked how old I was.
I was like, I'm eighteen and I was with Castro.
Castro I think was twenty one, you know, and they're like, what,
You're eighteen, Like, yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:27):
Yes, it was.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
It was.
Speaker 6 (27:29):
It was like, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
By that point, jeez, I was so new. I was new.
So I had got to the unit.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
I got to the unit in I think January of
two thousand and three.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
We check in and yeah, like so new.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
Yeah, like you know, boot camp. I went to boot
camp in June of two thousand and two, graduated boot camp, went.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
To school, and then checked in.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
So yeah, I had been in the Marine Corps I
think at that time for five months, you know, check in,
uh to the unit. And I remember our first company,
first earned he's like the senior listed advisor to the
company commander, but he was he was a gunnery sergeant,
was his reign gunnar in Peterson. There's like seven of
us checking in and He's like, you guys better learn
(28:17):
your job and learn it quick because we're going to war.
And I remember like, oh yeah, like eventually we'll go
to war, like someday. And it was probably ten days later.
I'm bringing my bag on ship. You know, we took
we took out, we took navy ships over there.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
And yeah. So that's that's how long I had been in.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Okay, So you you go in, you grab Sehana and
Shaana grabs you. And there's a famous picture of you,
you know, you guys running out away from there.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Tell me the process both of you go from there?
Where do you People just think, okay, you get Clayton.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah in the movie, we see you next and you know,
somebody's getting metal and that's it.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Tell us the journey from that moment on that picture.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
This picture that's hours later. Yeah, that's hours later. They
had to get us because let me tell you, I'm
gonna tell you this right now. And I've see in
general clarity. I just saw him a couple months ago
in stuff like that. I still keep in contact with him.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
He was their battalion commander, they said, and some of
the Hewitt guys, some of the Intael guys got some
of that information, took it to him and said, you know,
this is what we got and they said that he said, okay,
let me go and call up. They said five minutes
later that man came back and said, we're going to
do it.
Speaker 6 (29:30):
There's no way in hell. He got permission in five minutes.
No way in hell.
Speaker 7 (29:36):
So when they rescued us, they had to wait to
call in air to pick us up, so they had
to secure an area. The area they had, they had
to secure it, and they had to guard us until
that aircraft.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
Came and picked us up.
Speaker 7 (29:53):
So it wasn't just the rescue they had to Once
that happened, they still had to keep
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Us secure until we got picked up to take him
back
This is Unbreakable with Jay Glacier, a mental health podcast
helping you out of the gray and into the blue.
Now here's Jay Glacier.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome into Unbreakable, a mental health podcast with Jay Glazer.
I'm Jay Glazier, and today is a special show.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Sorry, Veterans Day week show.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You all know how invested I am into the military
and our veterans. And today is the best guests I've
ever had, Coolest guests I've ever had, most amazing story
I have ever heard in my life. And I do
have to get a little housekeeping out of the way
here first. If you're like many people, you will be
surprised to learn that one in five adults in this
country experienced mental illness last year. You get far too
(00:46):
many fail to receive the support they need. Carolin Behavioral
Health is doing something about it. They understand that behavioral
health is a key part of whole health, delivering compassionate
care that treats physical, mental, emotional, and social needs and
tandem Carolin behavioral health raising the quality of life through
empathy and action. All right, Welcome in again to Unbreakable,
mental health podcast with Jay Glazer.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Special Veterans Day Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I never get guests starstruck or words are hard to
come by in the last I don't know thirty years
of doing this and the career I've in except for
one time in my life.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
That's the other time I've.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Met these two people and don't know what I'm going
to do injustice introducing them. But folks, you want to
be on this journey with us tonight because it's the
most incredible story of love, first, perseverance, courage, and so
many other adjectives that you all will come up with
along this journey.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
I'm so grateful they're here with me. Let me lay
this out correctly.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Here. There's two guests, and we've never done this before,
all right, Sushana Johnson, who's the first African American female
POW that America has ever had, and the marine that
rescued her in Iraq.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Curnie Russell. Welcome both to Unbreakable. So there's so many
ways we could start.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
I met you both on the Zoom for MVP charity
found Emerging vets and Players, and that's the first time
you had ever seen each other, right since Kearnie, you
guys rescued Shoshana.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Yeah, yeah, that was the first time it was. It's
kind of weird that being the first time. Actually, now
that I think about.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
It, is this the second time? Did you choose to touch?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
This is the second time?
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Wow? Really?
Speaker 5 (02:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (02:29):
So all right, first of all, let's go back, Shoshana,
because it's two different ways.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Shashana, I want you to tell me your.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Version of what had happened in those days that day
when Kearnie and his crew rescued you, and then I
want Kearnie for you to chime in, because you obviously
had a version from the outside.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
A totally different way of seeing it. Shoshana, take it away.
Speaker 6 (02:49):
I remember it was a Sunday morning.
Speaker 7 (02:51):
I don't know if we're really keeping track or I remember,
or we figured out it was Sunday afterwards, and our
guards were given us breakfast.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
How long have you been in captivity at that point?
Speaker 6 (03:00):
Twenty two days?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Twenty two days? And how did you get captured in
the first place?
Speaker 7 (03:06):
We were captured in the ambush in a Nazaria Iraq. Wow,
we lost eleven who was six of us captured that
survived the captivity? Lori am Pistolla was captured alive and
she died of her injuries.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
Soderant. Donald Walters was captured and died of injuries.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Also, wow, So you get captured, and again, forgive me
because it's you know, I'm used to interview on football
players and fighters and all this, and you're.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
A different type of fighter. So forgive me if I
have a question that's ignorant or anything like that. You
get captured, what's going for your mind?
Speaker 6 (03:43):
First of all, you worry about the others. I mean,
I'm not in it by myself. There's my fellow soldiers
and so forth.
Speaker 7 (03:50):
So you you wonder who else got injured, who's dead,
and so forth.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
And then you start to wonder and are you going
to make it through this?
Speaker 3 (04:00):
Keep you separated?
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Yes.
Speaker 7 (04:02):
Now, the way they have ambush happened. They broke down
our convoy into three parts. I was part of the
last part where we got captured. I don't know if
the rest of the convoy got out. I didn't find
that out until the day we were rescued and we
got to Doha and they broke down to us exactly
who died and who made it out. So part of
(04:24):
that we didn't know. For all of our captivity, we
knew about Lynch. We knew about LORII, but we didn't
know if they had survived or died or whatsoever. Especially Jessica.
I knew that she had been injured and taken to
the hospital in in Nazaria. I didn't know if she
had survived what happened, and I thought Lourie was dead.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Wow. So when they take where do they bring you
and put you in?
Speaker 7 (04:47):
They actually took us to Baghdad. And you know, unfortunately,
with the stuff that recently happened in the Middle East,
a lot of that stuff brought up some really intense
memories because a lot of the videos where they would
take the hostages out and show them off, they did
the exact thing thing to us. Wow, they did the
(05:09):
exact same thing. I mean, we're in a vehicle. They
would stop in different cities and show us off. You know,
we got spit on, we got slapped, and so forth,
as they took us from a nazarea to Baghdad. So lately,
seeing a lot of those images brought back a whole
lot into my head about those days. Sometimes it's good
(05:30):
because it's nice to realize where you are right now
and how well you're doing, but it also brings up
stuff like, oh, my gosh, I had forgotten about that
particular incident or you know, stuff like that, and it
makes it very intense.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
When it's happening. Are you trying to just reconcile like
it's going to take a while. Am I going to
live around?
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I can die? How do I survive? Like? How are you?
What's your survival? I guess tactics between the years and
the early point of.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
That you just hope, you know.
Speaker 7 (05:58):
I mean, there's always a time, Oh, this is it,
I'm going to dine, and then you're like nope, nope.
I mean within a minute, you know, you go back
and forth and talking to yourself and within a minute
you're like, no, this is it, I'm going to dine.
Then you're like nope, nope, nope. I made it this far.
There's a reason, you know, and you just hold on
as best as you can, and that's all you can do.
I had no control over anything. I had no control
whether I went to the bathroom where you know, whether
(06:20):
you ate, whether you slept, you know, and stuff like that.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
No control.
Speaker 7 (06:25):
All you can do is hope, pray, I mean, if
you have a sense of faith or anything like that,
and hold on, you know, I remember I tell this
story all the time when I was younger, back in
the day. Kernie won't remember this because he too young.
They used to have TV movies, Movie of the Weeks
and stuff like that. You know now they have Netflix
(06:47):
and all. It was TV and movie Week and there
was a one called Showgun. It was a mini series
and stuff like that. Part of Showgun, there was a
point where a guy like literally got so preyed he
had a heart attack and dropped it. I remember asking
my mom, Oh my god, what happened mom? She was
he had a heart attack. He got so scared. As
life goes on, things happen and everything you watch the
Lifetime movies and these dramatic things happen to these women,
(07:10):
and I'm like, that's not me. If it came up
to me, I have a heart attack and die, just
like the dude and Showgun. So here I am in
the ambush. I'm waiting to have my heart attack and
die because I'm terrified. But the heart attack doesn't come.
So it's kind of realization. I got to lift through this.
I'm gonna have to, you know, go day by day,
(07:31):
minute by minute. And that's the realization and It also
teaches you you don't know how strong you are until
you have to be.
Speaker 6 (07:40):
I sure thought I was going I was going ready
for my heart attack. I didn't think I was tough enough.
But here I am.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
So when they brought you, I don't know where they
brought you. They bring you to one place and keep
you there for twenty two days. They move you around.
Speaker 7 (07:53):
They moved us around, bag Dad. We were taking the
bag Dad. We were interrogated. Then we were put into
a cell. We were in a prison for a couple
of days, and we got moved seven times. Every time
the US got close. And we can hear it. We
can hear the bombings, we can hear them getting gunfire
and stuff like that. We were moved as the US
(08:14):
got close. Kearney and them found us in a house.
It was somebody's home.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Wow, did you know, Like were you blindfold the whole time?
Or you were aware?
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Like okay, I'm in this now they're moving us here
they're moving is like how where were you?
Speaker 3 (08:28):
What was happening?
Speaker 6 (08:29):
They blindfold us when they moved us, right, we couldn't
see a thing. Lots of times they moved us at night.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
We didn't know at the time we found out late
they were moving us in a red crescent van. There
was a couple of times there were firefights going on
and they're moving us in the middle of it, and
things like that.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
How many other people were you with? And are you?
Are you in a room or you.
Speaker 7 (08:51):
They kept me separate until the last two places. We're
all separate in the beginning. I think it was like
the third or fourth place where they started to put
the men together, and then I stayed by myself until
the last two houses.
Speaker 6 (09:03):
And then they put me with the guys and it
was six guys and myself.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Now, Prennie, I want to bring you in here, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
So in the days wading up and you know, Shashana said,
she's in the house. Tell us what you're told, tell
us how you guys are starting to form this mission
to go rescue Shoshana and the others.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
Sort of backtrack a little.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
Actually, she mentioned Nazarea, and my memory serves me correct.
We our battalion got ambushed in Nazarea. I think they
had dubbed that ambush alley shortly after we had gone
through there. Uh, you know, so it was it was
kind of a known area and I want to say
we had gone through there prior to Shoshana and her
unit moving through there, so it was kind of like
(09:47):
a known hot area to go through. So yeah, that
that was I remember that. I remember that night pretty
pretty vividly.
Speaker 5 (09:54):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
It was one of those things where we were rolling through,
you know, back going back to Nazaria, rolling through, and
then it just seemed like up to the front of
the convoy, all hell broke loose and it just trickled
all the way down and it was like, WHOA, what's
going on here? And I think that was like our
first actual real engagement, you know, none of like the
pop shots or anything like that. It was actual real
(10:15):
engagement with guys who wanted to fight back. So yeah, no,
I remember, I remember Nazarie, I remember rolling through there.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
But so back to you.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Know, we were the whole goal for us, I guess
was just get to Baghdad, you know. I remember, you know,
talking with the guys and hey, you know, we've.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Got to get the bag Dad. Once we get to.
Speaker 4 (10:33):
Bagdad, this war is over and all this stuff. And
we were making really good progress going up there.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Moving north.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
I remember we had stopped kind of on the outskirts
and I want to say we'd formed Cask Force Tripoli.
Task Force Tripoli was like formed, like, hey, forget about Baghdad.
We want you guys past Bagdad. Let's go up to
Saddam's home count to Crit. Like let's get up there
and like let's show them we're up here. We're going
to fight our way all the way through. I remember
hearing some talkway we take any any you know, shots
(11:02):
in Baghdad. We just want to race straight through there.
We want to get to to Crit where that was
supposed to be the like the big fight was supposed
to be into Crit because he was, you know, Saddam
was supposed to have his uh things like the Revolution
the Revolution Guard or something like that, like that was
going to be their last stand. Like the big fight
was going to be into Crit. So like, hey, let's
get Task Force Tripoli up there as fast.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
As we can.
Speaker 4 (11:22):
And uh so, you know, we kind of just pushed
straight through Baghdad. And I want to say, like the
night prior, so there's all these rumors going around.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
To like even you know, I've done.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
You know, I went to Iraq another time after that,
in Afghanistan after that and there's always rumors that fly about,
you know, and one of the rumors was that I
think it was like the Army's third Infantry Division was
going to come leave us in place, Like once we
get up there, we're gonna you know, once we get
to to Crate, we'll fight, we'll do our thing. The
Army's third idea is going to come to leave us
and we're going home, you know. So it's like the
(11:53):
rumors are spreading and all that stuff. So we, uh,
we got outside of the city where where the uh
that rescue had gone down, and just prior to moving in,
a friend of ours, Elliott Ruiz, he had got injured,
you know, he got injured. I think it was like
a few days prior to that. And so we move
into I forget the name of the CID. Do you
remember the name of the city Shashana Tomorrow Samara, thank you.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, So we we moved.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
We moved into Samara that night and I think it
was second platoon or something like that. They had taken
some you know, they taken some shots. They had some
action going on over by the area that they were
passed to secure.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
My platoon. We had a bridge.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
It was kind of quiet that night till the following morning. Uh,
you know, we're told, hey, stop every like high profile
car that's coming through, because that's going to be the
Those are like supposedly.
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Like Saddam's guys.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
You know, like if you see any high like, you know,
a nice looking, luxurious car, stop them. You know, we
got guys that need to talk to them. So we're
just doing that. It was kind of boring for us
that that morning, I remember. And then then then we
get told, hey, Battalian commander wants to talk to you guys.
So we're like, hey, the Army's third ideas here. We're
gonna be going home soon, you know. And Italian commander
(13:02):
came out and he's like, hey, look we got a
mission for you guys. You know, kind of in a nutshell,
Hey we got a mission. There's seven Americans in this
town and we're going to go get them, you know.
Speaker 5 (13:10):
And it was like, whoa, So the Army's third idea
is not here, you know. So yeah, that's kind of
how it got got brief down to us.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And I remember hearing terms during that whole you know,
push up the bagdad and stuff. It was like, hey,
you guys are weapons free, you know, not out there
just lawless, you know, shooting and stuff like that, but
military age men that depose a threat. And that was
the first time that I heard, Hey, you guys are
gonna be weapons tight on this one, you know, so
like don't shoot unless you guys are getting shot at.
(13:37):
And it was like yeah, so I was kind of like,
oh wow. And then hey, by the way, Russell, you're
the point man, you know, and I'm like, all right,
you know this is this is gonna be great, you know.
So so yeah, that was like kind of leading up to.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
It, how many how many other Marines are you with
leading this rescue?
Speaker 4 (13:52):
So it was our platoon there would have been we
were light on that that deployment.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
We were real light.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
So we probably had on the ground maybe ten guys,
maybe ten guys on the ground, but.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
We had Wow.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Yeah, then that was like, you know, we had we
plused up a little for that. I remember our our
company first sergeant came out with us, you know, maybe
one or two other people, but actually guys that I was.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
With the whole time, there was probably like ten of us.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
You know, we had vehicles in support. Don't get me wrong,
you know, we had our vehicles that brought us there.
The outer courdon was set with the know platoon of vehicles.
The intercurding was set with another platoon of vehicles. But
the actual rescue for us on the ground was was
kind of light.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
And how did you know where to go? Where she was?
Speaker 7 (14:34):
You?
Speaker 3 (14:35):
When? When did that information?
Speaker 4 (14:36):
That morning? Somebody that morning? Yeah, that morning, somebody had
came up. We didn't know they were there. I remember
I remember hearing that that that you know, some some
soldiers had got captured. We heard that, you know, we
heard that like, hey, some soldiers got captured. Guys like
you know, stick together type deal, you know, don't get separated.
Speaker 5 (14:55):
You know this, that and the other. It's like all right,
So we had known that.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
I knew that just the Lynch had got rescued as well,
Like we had heard that the seals had gone in
and rescued Jessica Lynch. So yeah, that morning, I think
somebody had walked up to like first or second platoon,
one of the guys like was like, hey, handed them
a piece of paper.
Speaker 5 (15:12):
Basically, it kind of like how it was told to.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Us after was like that the people who had them captive,
like their people who were holding them got so scared because.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
We were like task Force Tripoli was doing what we
were supposed to do and moving.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
So fast that they were like whoa, like we don't
want them anymore type deal.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (15:32):
So yeah, that's how it was told to us after
is like you know, they basically they got scared. They're like,
you know, we weren't supposed to be there that quick.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Okay. So now sh Sean, I'm to go back to
you here.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
You get to this, so it's the day of Do
you think something's different? Do you are you starting to
feel that, man, there could be home inside here.
Speaker 7 (15:52):
It was a little different because they used to keep
us in a room where we slept and all that
kind of stuff. That they brought us out to like
a living room kind of area, and they were giving
us breakfast, you know, which was tea and a little
you know, cake thing of a jig like that, and
I was like, okay, okay, you know, and the night
(16:12):
before I remember definitely the night before, they gave us
this big meal like a virgin of amberger with some rice,
and they gave us soda and chocolate and I was like,
oh yeah, And then I thought, oh, hell, this is
my last meal?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Wow?
Speaker 7 (16:27):
You know, so I definitely was terrified, terrified, terrified.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Did you know we were there? Curious if you had
heard like that firefight that I think it was first
or second platoon had gotten into.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
No, No, I didn't remember.
Speaker 7 (16:41):
And that was kind of the scary stuff because before
we were hearing firefights, we were hearing you know, gunfire
and stuff. Once you moved to a house and you
don't hear none of that action, then how are you
going to get found? They can't come and look through
every house in Iraq, So once you start putting us
in houses, I really started to get scared.
Speaker 6 (17:00):
I was like, they can't go through everybody's house. How
are they going to find us?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
You know?
Speaker 7 (17:05):
And then you know, then the last meal comes into
play and I'm like, oh shit is over? Well it
was over. You know, them guys came busting down the door.
I mean you're boom and then you're get down.
Speaker 6 (17:17):
Get down?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
And so where are you when this is going? When
dining room?
Speaker 7 (17:22):
You know, we're all in the little dining room or
living room area. You know, everything's said, you know, you
sit on the floor and stuff like that and everything.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
What kind of condition. Are you are you injured? Are
you anything?
Speaker 6 (17:33):
I was shot in both legs doing the ambush.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
Oh my god, but you know I was doing okay me.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
I get up and I'm like, oh, they don't mean me.
I'm American. So I'm standing there and it was Gordon Miller,
he was the LT. Came up and like pushed me
to the ground and I'm like, what.
Speaker 5 (17:54):
You know?
Speaker 6 (17:55):
Basically they get everybody on the.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Ground back back. Are you blindfolder? You're not blackholed?
Speaker 6 (18:00):
I'm not black Olvid Okay, we're giving us a breakfast.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
So do you hear like boom boom? But do you
hear anything outside? You hear them creeping? Do you have
any idea or are you just shocked when this door
kicks open? But I think you also said there was
a couple you heard a couple of booms.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I think the last time we.
Speaker 7 (18:15):
Hear I heard two big booms in the door coming
down right, okay, we're coming open. I was like, oh crap,
what the hell? And then you hear clear English there's
something I get down, get down and it's clear English.
It's not accented or anything. So I'm going home. How
quickly does that trigger with you like, this is it.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
I'm getting rescued.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
I mean by the time, get down, get down, And
I was like, oh my god, it's Americans.
Speaker 6 (18:40):
I'm going home.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
I'm going home.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Bring me inside your mind right there, when you realize
I'm not going to be left yard I am getting rescued,
I is just joy joy.
Speaker 6 (18:50):
I mean, it's hard to explain or put that into words.
The way they came in. I mean, it's like a movie.
That's what I in my head. It's like a movie.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
You know.
Speaker 7 (19:01):
You see these guys coming in and breaking down the
door and literally pulling you out and rescuing you. This
is not something I mean, none of it was ever
anything I would ever thought i'd ever experience. But it's
still something I prayed for and hoped for. But then
to have it really happening is surreal, sur real. And
(19:23):
you know I say this. There was a twentieth anniversary
in Las Vegas. I was hoping to see Kearnie there
and he wasn't there. And I was able to tell
most a lot of them. I said, in my mind,
y'all are all six feet tall. Your shoulders are so
broad you had to turn sideways to get in the
room because you are heroes.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
You know.
Speaker 6 (19:42):
We see this stuff in TV and movies and we see.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
These make believe but I got to experience it in
real life.
Speaker 5 (19:50):
You know.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
I think America sees our men and women in uniform
as abstract, the sacrifices they make and what they do
for us. I get to see it and experience it
face to face.
Speaker 5 (20:03):
You know.
Speaker 7 (20:03):
In this moment, I saw these men come in to
pull me out at the.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Risk of their own lives. I experienced that.
Speaker 7 (20:13):
So when people talk about, oh, you know, I appreciate
you know, the soldiers and marines, ILL was like, you
have no idea, you have no concept as a soldier
that went out and did and then you have no
concept of what they're really willing to do for you.
I understand because they got that intel. General well he
(20:35):
was Colonel Clarity at the time, sent those men in
and it could have all went to hell. It could
have all well went to hell, but they did it.
And here I am and to see my daughter grow up,
and she's a pain in my ass.
Speaker 6 (20:52):
You know. I see my niece and a niece.
Speaker 7 (20:54):
That I wouldn't have got to meet because my sister
was pregnant I have two nephews that I would have
never got to meet if they weren't willing to do
this for me, you know.
Speaker 6 (21:04):
So it's humbling.
Speaker 7 (21:06):
It's very humbling, what you know somebody's willing to do
for you.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
So this is the third time you met Kearnie. When
you met him that day, what was Kurnie doing? And
then Curnie, I want you to piggyback off it and
tell us again, pick it up from your point of
view what happened right before that.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
Weren't you the one that kicked down the door?
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Yeah? No, that was me, And I always tell the story.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
It's like, you know, you watch on TV and you
just watch somebody walk up and kick a door and
it just flies open. So that was the first door
that I ever really kicked. It's not like the movie.
So the first two banks you heard that was my
failed attempt at trying to get that door open.
Speaker 5 (21:47):
The third one is when it actually came open.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Yeah, we didn't have any reaching equipment at the time,
so I was the breacher for the door.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
Oh my god. So that okay? But wait, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
So so you talk about stress and pressure, I can't
imagine what you must be thinking with those first two kicks,
because now the element of surprise is gone, and those
first two kicks aren't successful.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
The element of surprise for us had was gone from
the beginning. Basically, somebody had walked up and handed handed
one of the guys on you know that was on
guard one of the like you know, a letter or
something like that with a makeshift map that was drawn
up with. I think they were staying in a house
number thirteen, if I'm not mistaken, and it's like the
way it's written in Arabic, it looks different, so we
(22:32):
it almost looks like a seven than like a squiggly
seven then a one or something like that. So when
we found out what we were going to do, we
go in and we're trying to you know, the the
vehicle commanders, guys driving, they're trying to get you know,
navigate off of that map that we're given and they're like,
all right, cool, it should be right up there. That's
the house. So we're in this town, you know, the
city Samara, and we go up to this house. It's
(22:55):
the wrong house, you know, reading that map, and so
we figured out, oh, yeah, it's backwards, you know they
write they write backwards.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Yeah, So we went to the wrong house at first,
and then uh, and then it was like, all right, hey,
so we're on foot. Now, you know, we had exited
the vehicle, went hit the wrong house, left that house. Really, hey,
there's nobody here, all right, So now we're on foot
and we're just trying to like think we were like
a few blocks away, so we had to move down
a few blocks. But uh, you know, everybody knows we're there,
(23:24):
Like there's no element of surprise. And I remember telling
the story years ago. This was the only thing I
could really compare it to is you start seeing people
come up on rooftops, Like the rooftops are just flooded
with people. People are coming out, and it just reminded me,
you know, I had seen you know, my senior year
of high school. I think it was I went and
I saw black Hawk Down. And that was the only
thing I can compare it to. It was like, everybody's
(23:46):
on these rooftops. It's like reminds me like that movie
block black Hawk Down.
Speaker 5 (23:51):
It's a setup.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
We're going to get ambushed, you know, because we knew
that there was Americans that were still you know, being
held pow, but we didn't know where, you know, so
in my mind, I'm like, this is an ambush. And
then running, you know, a few blocks down with somehow
we get to that right house and uh, you know,
I remember being the point man going up to that door,
and I remember that house. It was kind of weird,
(24:14):
like there was actually two front doors. It was almost
looked like a duplex if I remember correctly, but you
know their style of house. So I went up to
the door on the right, just kind of you know,
running up to that door. I get on the door.
Two kicks, it doesn't open, third kick, it finally opens.
I think there was like the door that was on
the left was open and it connected to that house.
So as I'm coming up, there was a hallway. I
(24:36):
remember as I was coming up the hallway, there's a
door to my left, and I looked to the left
and I saw somebody in there with a with a gun,
you know, a rifle.
Speaker 5 (24:44):
But it was one of our guys.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
So like I went to turn real quick, and you know,
the whole time, we're you know, yelling everybody, get down,
get down, And I went to turn to tell that
guy to get down, but he was with me. He
just found that open door, you know. So I remember,
you know, we're going in and there was the first room.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
On the right. They were all in, and you know,
we went.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
In and you know, like she said telling everybody to
get down, get down, and uh, I remember somebody saying,
you know, she had you know, we told everybody to
get down, stand up.
Speaker 5 (25:09):
If you're an American, and people.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
Started standing up, and I remember somebody said to Shoshana, like,
you know, get down, and I was like, no, she's
an American.
Speaker 5 (25:18):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
Everybody else was lack lack of better terms, everybody else
was Caucasian. She didn't look Arabic. She looked like people
that I know, you know, so she didn't look Arabic,
and I knew, like she's like, she's an American, you know,
And yeah, it was you know, I tell the story,
you know, looking back after, you know, on it is
I think the people there were so scared.
Speaker 5 (25:39):
It's like we could have went in there with m R.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Spoons and you got them out of there, like they
you know that people that were done.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
This is not just count what you've done. This this
is again we see the movies and.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Superhero this is superhero stuff, and so don't discount it.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
And that's what a lot of us tend to do.
We tend to say, oh no, no, no, yeah, but it.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Wasn't this, No, this was the greatest moment you could have,
in the biggest moment of your life and you stepping up.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
So don't discount it at all.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Yeah no, yeah, right, So all right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
So now you see Sirshawn and them so YouTube. I
guess it's your third meeting since or second meeting after that, Shirshanna.
Before we kind of get into how you guys get
out when you see Karnie here, Like, what kind of
emotions is it to bring for you?
Speaker 6 (26:32):
It's surreal. It's surreal.
Speaker 7 (26:35):
First of all, I always comme in. I was like, oh,
he's a grown man now, because I remember the eighteen
year old. He was eighteen, right, yeah, yeah, And I
remember thinking at the time, because you know, at that time,
everybody who's dusty dirty, they looked a little older. Kearnie
went back to Doha with us my security blanket.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
I had a grip on that boy's arm, so, you know,
because it made me feel safe, I was okay.
Speaker 7 (27:03):
And then he went and cleaned up and everything, and
then I saw this babyface.
Speaker 6 (27:07):
I was like, oh my god, this little boy. I
was thirty. I had twelve years on him. I saw
this baby and I'm like, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (27:15):
Yeah. If I remember correctly.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
I think that's when somebody asked how old I was.
I was like, I'm eighteen and I was with Castro.
Castro I think was twenty one, you know, and they're like, what,
You're eighteen, Like, yeah.
Speaker 6 (27:27):
Yes, it was.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
It was.
Speaker 6 (27:29):
It was like, oh my god.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
By that point, jeez, I was so new. I was new.
So I had got to the unit.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
I got to the unit in I think January of
two thousand and three.
Speaker 5 (27:43):
We check in and yeah, like so new.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
Yeah, like you know, boot camp. I went to boot
camp in June of two thousand and two, graduated boot camp, went.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
To school, and then checked in.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
So yeah, I had been in the Marine Corps I
think at that time for five months, you know, check in,
uh to the unit. And I remember our first company,
first earned he's like the senior listed advisor to the
company commander, but he was he was a gunnery sergeant,
was his reign gunnar in Peterson. There's like seven of
us checking in and He's like, you guys better learn
(28:17):
your job and learn it quick because we're going to war.
And I remember like, oh yeah, like eventually we'll go
to war, like someday. And it was probably ten days later.
I'm bringing my bag on ship. You know, we took
we took out, we took navy ships over there.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
And yeah. So that's that's how long I had been in.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Okay, So you you go in, you grab Sehana and
Shaana grabs you. And there's a famous picture of you,
you know, you guys running out away from there.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Tell me the process both of you go from there?
Where do you People just think, okay, you get Clayton.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah in the movie, we see you next and you know,
somebody's getting metal and that's it.
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Tell us the journey from that moment on that picture.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
This picture that's hours later. Yeah, that's hours later. They
had to get us because let me tell you, I'm
gonna tell you this right now. And I've see in
general clarity. I just saw him a couple months ago
in stuff like that. I still keep in contact with him.
Speaker 7 (29:11):
He was their battalion commander, they said, and some of
the Hewitt guys, some of the Intael guys got some
of that information, took it to him and said, you know,
this is what we got and they said that he said, okay,
let me go and call up. They said five minutes
later that man came back and said, we're going to
do it.
Speaker 6 (29:30):
There's no way in hell. He got permission in five minutes.
No way in hell.
Speaker 7 (29:36):
So when they rescued us, they had to wait to
call in air to pick us up, so they had
to secure an area. The area they had, they had
to secure it, and they had to guard us until
that aircraft.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
Came and picked us up.
Speaker 7 (29:53):
So it wasn't just the rescue they had to Once
that happened, they still had to keep
Speaker 6 (29:58):
Us secure until we got picked up to take him
back
Host
Ben Maller
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