January 12, 2026 • 68 mins
Sex and the City inspired women and gave them the freedom to talk about sexuality, intimacy, and relationships in ways we hadn’t prior to this iconic show’s debut.
Dr. Orna Guralnik joins Kristin to give expert advice on why the storylines are as crucial today as they ever were.
The deep meaning behind Carrie cheating, Charlotte’s prenup, Samantha's power, and The Mr. Big types.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte? Well, hello, hello, hello, everybody, welcome back
to Are You a Charlotte? We have such a thrilling
guest today. I have been trying to get her on
for quite some time. I'm a very big fan. Is
(00:22):
doctor Orna Geralnik. She is incredible. You may know her
from Couple's Therapy, which is on Paramount Plus Now. It's
a great, great show where she is actually a therapist
to actual, real people. She is a true psychologist and
psychoanalyst practicing in New York City. She's on the faculty
(00:43):
at NYU. Her academic instruction examines intergenerational trauma, the intersection
of socio political ideology, and psychoanalysis, disassociation and depersonalization. Doesn't
that sound am amazing? She's really, really smart and I
am so excited because I have her on today to
(01:06):
talk about one of the really intense episodes where Carrie
is cheating with Big behind Aiden's back, It's all or Nothing.
This episode aired August thirteenth, in the year two thousand,
is directed by Charles McDougall and written by the incredible
Jenny Bicks. So we're going to break it down. We're
going to talk about some bigger kind of cultural psychoanalysis
(01:33):
type therapy things, and then also I'm going to break
down the episode a little bit later on my own.
So please enjoy. I hope you love it. She's so great.
Thank you so so much for joining me. I am
the biggest fan. A mutual friend told me to watch
Couple's Therapy and I said, oh, I'm really worried about
watching it because I'm not in a relationship and I'm
(01:55):
worried that it will never make me want to get
into one. And it was totally opposite. It's so beautiful,
the people coming to you and really doing the work.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I know, it's I have to say, like being you know,
I'm writing a book now about couples, and I'm kind
of scanning the history of my work with couples over
the years, and it has made me believe more and
more in humanity.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Oh that's so nice. We need that right now.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, we definitely do.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
We definitely do. And it's just so great because also
you have such a great variety of people human beings
and what they're going through, and it really reminds you
of how we're connected and similar, even though we might
not realize that all the time. You know, everyone's right,
there's like struggling with the same things. And part of
the reason that I want to do I know this
is not your normal podcast that you would come on to,
(02:52):
so I really really appreciate it. But part of what
I love is that you do talk about and kind
of connect culture in terms of relationships. And I mean,
for me, I feel like you have insight into how
we're talking about things, and for me, for our show
(03:13):
for Sex and the City, especially when it started, which
was nineteen ninety eight, well quite a long time ago.
You know, we really wanted to at the time create
a new way of talking about relationships that was female centered,
you know, female empowering, talking about things that people weren't
talking about. Now, it's funny to me that in twenty
(03:34):
twenty five, this is still kind of a relevant thing,
and I would love your perspective on it and your
perspective on how culture relates to our expectations in relationships
because people have a lot to say. You know, people
have a lot of projection onto shows and characters, and
you know, they have a lot of deep feelings, like Oh,
(03:55):
Carrie's a narcissist. You know, everyone likes to call everyone
a narcissist. Now it's a very fascinating thing. But like,
what is your perspective on all of this, how do
they connect?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, really big questions. Sorry, I mean to just like gory.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, yes, Well I.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Must start by saying that I loved Sex and the
City at the time.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And my daughter, who's twenty five is she told me
that she knows episode episode by episode by heart.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I love that. Thank you, Oh tell her, thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Transferred along the generations level. Yeah, so look, I think
you know, Freud already talked about how mm hmm our connection,
(04:50):
our our sexual connection to other people is not like
a private event. It's always sort of it lives in
the context of like the social right, where we have
our desires and then we have society to contend with.
So we're always to some degree kind of mediating between
like all sorts of impulses and the culture that we
(05:11):
live in, right, and it's there's always some interesting tension there.
So in that sense, I find that couples are kind
of like a perfect arena, like the in which like
the or relationships are the perfect arena between like what
(05:32):
are our impulses individuals and what are the messages we're
getting from the culture at large about how to be
a human? And I do think like your show is
very much about that sort of how do you navigate
individuality and where does it live within the culture at large?
(05:54):
And how much freedom? How many degrees of freedom do
we have? And I feel like what Sex and the
City has done, is it carved out way more degrees
of freedom for women just in terms of like understanding
how to think about themselves and how to think about
relationships and how to think about sexuality. And I think
about friendship super important, absolutely, So I mean we can
(06:17):
talk about lots of things in terms of what are
those tensions?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And I know, I mean, I think that's really well put.
And I think it's like permission. Sometimes you need something
reflecting back to you that you have permission to, you know,
be certain ways. Like Samantha is a perfect example kind
of a different character than we had previously seen on television,
(06:43):
really embracing her singleness, her sexuality, her freedom to choose,
you know, not being judged. This particular episode is an
interesting one. I had totally forgotten. I really haven't rewatched
this until now, you know, which is many many years.
I always loved our show, but I'm having so much
more appreciation for the writing and you know, all the
(07:05):
different elements and the ways that we you know, even
each character goes through different moments that you forget, and
then you're like, oh, no, here's Samantha. She gets sick,
she call goes through her black book, calling her sex partners.
No one will come over to help her rehang her curtain,
which I, as a single woman, totally relate to. Right,
(07:25):
who is going to help you hang your curtain? You
got to call a handyman, this is what I've learned.
You cannot call a casual you know, date. But this
episode is called all or Nothing, which I really love
in It aired in two thousand, which is also so
crazy to me that it's just so relatable, you know,
forever these things. And then when she's sick and she
(07:47):
has a fever, Samantha, who we think is being completely
free and without judgment and not shackled by these societal
expectations of marriage, She's all of a sudden saying, I
should I've gotten married? You know, it is really kind
of heartbreaking, but then when she gets well, she's like, no, no,
I was just having a moment. But it's so freeing.
(08:11):
It's like a breath of fresh air, you know, to
have that character be so powerful, and so many people
still talk to me about that character, and it's kind
of amazing that we don't have more characters like her,
But I do feel like it has it is more
acceptable now to be someone who's saying, I am proudly
a Samantha, Yeah, and rightly. So you can choose your
(08:34):
own situation and be free. Now, do you feel like
if you look at it from your perspective and what
you're seeing, Because you're seeing clients all the time who
are in it, like living in relationships, trying to define
their roles in relationships. And I have friends who are divorced,
friends who are still married, younger friends who are looking
to get married. And someone was just talking to me
(08:55):
yesterday about how he's been divorced he's going to get remarried.
And he said, you know, I was in a top
sick relationship and I was pulling all the weight and
earning the money and she wasn't doing anything. And I said,
did you guys talk about this, like, did you ever
talk about this, you know, you know when you're and
he's a guy obviously, and he said, well, I just
thought that she was a partner and she would be
(09:16):
a partner. And I said, but you you have to
discuss this stuff. You have to negotiate it together, because
there's a huge range of expectations. Right, So it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Right, huge range of expectations. How do people imagine relationships work?
But also each person has their own perspective, right, this person,
this friend of yours, might have thought that he's pulling
all the weight in one domain, but not aware at
all of some other domain in which she felt like
she's pulling all the weight.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I'm sure, yes, I am sure. I mean, of course,
I saw a great clip of you talking about people
people wanting to change their partner, and you're saying, you
know that there is this kind of unspoken thing that
happens in therapy where you go to therapy and you think,
like I really want to change that person, and doctor
(10:06):
Ornan is gonna help me. Yes, Well that's not really
the game, that's not really the thing that you want
to do.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
It's not no, And really that's how most therapies start.
Most couple's therapies start with like each of them kind
of dragging the other one into the office and kind
of winking at me. Change them, change them right, And
then at some point in the work they realize, Oh,
she's not doing that.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
That's my love about you though. You're so you're so
you have such great boundaries, so you're so empathetic, but
at the same time you have to very calmly say,
do you see that you're doing the thing that we've discussed,
you know, and that's that's really powerful and so hard
to find.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, if I was in a couple, I would be
trying to see you, as would everyone else. But let's say,
the biggest thing that I really wanted to hear your
perspective on in this particular episode and in the show,
and I think in life is the cheating situation. Right,
So we're at the part in season three for everyone listening,
I know, you know, but it is when Carrie has
(11:19):
cheated and not aiden with Big and she's kept it
a secret. And I love how our writers and director
Charles mcdougil, great director, use the kind of she's she's like,
I have the best boyfriend. She starts the show I
have the best boyfriend, and then she'll just have these
flashbacks of the sex with Big and how you know powerful,
isn't that She's like trying to put it out of
(11:40):
her mind. I didn't do that. I didn't do that.
I didn't tell anyone. No one knows, you know, obviously
other than Big. Right, she hasn't told any of the friends.
But she's riddled my guilt, you know, which is of
course the horrible problem when you have ever cheated is
that then you can't really be yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Well, there's a lot to say about that, please go ahead,
So much to say about that, but let's just first
talk about what you're saying about the guilt. The fact
that Carrie is feeling guilty is actually a sign of,
(12:19):
if you want to say, psychological health or integration. Because
what happens sometimes when people cheat is they can't actually
tolerate guilt. They can't really wrestle with the fact that
they're cheating might mean something to their actual partner, so
(12:40):
they keep it dissociated. Wow, So there are people that
cheat and it's as if it's happening on another like
on a separate universe. And they in their inner world,
they keep it separate, so they don't actually they don't
actually deal with what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, I don't know anything about that.
I'm not one of those people. I have cheated, but
I'm not one of those people. So what would make
someone be like that? Like what's their makeup or what's
happening that they do that?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
We can take a little detour here and talk about
like defense mechanisms there. You know, there are all sorts
of ways that we hide from ourselves that we don't
want to know certain things about ourselves or about reality.
Reality can be pretty overwhelming and humiliating and misunderstood, and
there are many reasons why we can't deal with everything.
(13:39):
So we employ all sorts of different defense mechanisms, and
people differ in like the type of defense they tend
to gravitate towards and how much it distorts reality. So
some people use like you know, what we'd call like
really primitive defenses, and they just deny things that are
actually right in front of them them, like people could
(14:01):
actually people could cheat and deny that it's happening. Wow,
really almost deny to themselves. Certainly deny to anyone else.
But then there's people who can dissociate. They can just
keep their worlds very separate, so they can have like
a a semi functional relationship with their partner and they're
(14:25):
on the side doing something else that's coming from a
different part of their personality that is not integrated. And
you know, when these things emerge, or when someone is
let's say, caught, or something happens and the two realities meet,
they can really have a breakdown because they've in their
own mind, they've kept it separate.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, So the fact that Carrie's actually able to feel
guilt and she struggles with it is good.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
That makes so much, so much sense. It's good, Yeah,
of course. And I think it's of course because I
mean you're you're talking about like a really deep seated compartmentalization,
right right, and that that that's interesting. I'm sure that
I've dated people like this, but I'm not one of them.
But but it's interesting to think about. I mean, I
(15:17):
I in the one hand, it seems like it would
be great, but then there is like in another way,
I'm wondering if you're talking about like is it almost
like your shadow, like the shadow part of you, like
the more in a Jungian world, you're that part is
living over here and you're not integrating the two.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I don't know, I don't I don't know if the
union idea of shadow would necessarily work here. Okay, yeah,
that that won't necessarily work, Okay, okay, But it's I
mean when people used dissociation, I mean sometimes it's sort
of I mean people, I mean, in extreme cases it
(15:58):
has to do with trauma. People associate from traumatic events
so that it doesn't take over their life, and then
they learn how to split certain experiences from their normal,
everyday life. But that that's in the case of trauma.
But on a mild and a milder version of it,
people compartmentalize. As you say, I mean, this is not everyone.
(16:18):
This is a particular line of defense that people use.
And then there's the question of like what I mean,
this is going back to the union idea, like where
is the cheating coming from and how much is it
related to the rest of life. Is the cheating kind
of an expression of one's shadow of something that is
(16:40):
not not coming into play in the main relationship. Is
it an attack on the relationship which certain cheating can be.
It's it's like a communication to one's partner unconsciously that
someone can be resentful angry. Is it like some kind
of reenactment of some past experience that I don't know,
(17:04):
Maybe they've seen their parents cheat on each other and
they're kind of reenacting that story to understand it in
some way. I mean, this cheating is like a really
complicated thing. It is not to mention that also putting
it in a cultural context, and in some relationships certain
(17:25):
kind of things are considered cheating, and in other relationships,
in a different context, it wouldn't be considered cheating, Right,
you're in an open relationship, or if I don't know,
you're an old school Mormon, or sure, sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So one thing I think that the fans like to
talk a lot about with this Aiden Big situation, which
does go on for many years. Right, these two men,
they're very different characters. She Carrie has incredible chemistry with both,
which is, you know, somewhat because of the actors playing
the characters having credible chemistry and are great actors. And
(18:13):
there are people who love Aiden and hate Big, and
people who hate Big and love Aiden, and blah blah blah,
you know, it's fascinating and it goes on and as
I'm rewatching, I am reminded of weird things about the
times that we were making the show. So late nineties,
so mister Big to me and I don't know, were
you in New York in the late nineties. Also, yeah,
(18:34):
it was a very much a known prototype of man,
very much then. Especially. I mean, he was based on
a real person who was in the publishing world, very
high up in the publishing world. But he also seems
kind of like those financial guys, not like a stock
market guy, but like the higher up. You know. He's
like aloof but also super successful. And I think it
(18:56):
was kind of a like a desirable thing for men,
any young ladies in New York. Not me personally. I
was more into theater dudes, you know, but he was.
He was very much known. And when I first went back,
like known to us, you know, when I first went
back and looked at the beginning of the show, I
was shocked by how withholding his is like like he
(19:22):
is so covered and she is like chasing and chasing
and trying to get him to talk, and it just
broke my heart for her. But at the time I
also know that those thoughts never crossed my mind. They
never entered my mind. Yeah, because I was just so
used to it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
It's just like the air, the air you.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Breathe exactly exactly. It didn't I would never have thought
those thoughts. Then I was just like, yeah, I love
mister Vegan turn and now when people talk about him
and then people are there's still some people who are
like mister big. Now, of course he does go on
for quite a long time, and he developed sen we
get to know him better and all of those things.
(20:03):
But then the other interesting thing because I was like
Aidan as well. Now I know both the actors, so
I'm not really objective, but when he comes, I don't
know if you remember this part. The very first time
they go out, she's smoking, she's smoking a lot, and
he says right away, you know, oh no, you know,
I can't date a smoker. And she's like, oh okay,
I'll just put them away, and she thinks she can
(20:25):
just casually not smoke, but then she starts really jonesing,
and it's a very kind of wonderful mirror of you know,
you meet someone, they're different, you love them, they might
not totally get you, but you're drawn to them. You know.
He's kind of the anti Big, But she's trying to
put a part of herself away so that she can
(20:46):
be with him. She's trying to pretend like I could
just quit smoking it's fine, but it's not that easy,
and it doesn't there's a part of him that doesn't
really seem to fully get her. Yeah, and that, to
me is also part of why she does end up
back with Big, even though he's Withholding. Yeah, but I
(21:06):
don't know if that's just me projecting.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well interesting, I mean, first of all, I'm interested in
like the way we're our idea of what a man
is has changed. Yes, Like the first thing you talked about,
like the fact that at the time it didn't even
(21:31):
occur to you to think of him as withholding. Yep,
that there there used to be some in a way,
There used to be some way that we as women
or as a culture didn't see the full complexity of
what a man is. Yeah, and how it sucks to
(21:51):
be a man. Yeah, they have to perform to that
kind of standard. And like it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yes, it's like he was trapped in like a box,
like a wall.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, and it's like it's supposed to be so great
to be a mister Big, but oh my god, that
I can imagine that being so stressful.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yes, I agree to be that. Yeah, I agree fully. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And then you're saying there's a in a way, like
a mirror image of that of like trying to be
the girl that Aiden wants. It's really you'd have to
think that. I mean, the optimistic way of thinking about
it is that as a society we are making some
progress towards like having like a wider range of how
(22:41):
we understand who we are as humans and the constraints
of gender. I'm just not sure that's actually happening, right.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
It seems like it's trying to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
It's trying to happen, but there's yeah, there's a lot
of pushback on that.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I agree, And I'm just gonna have to bring something
because it's just so on my mind. But I don't
know if you've seen Heated Rivalry, No, oh my god, doctor, Oh,
it's so exciting. You have to watch it. We will
not be derailed by my obsession with this show, but
it is, in my mind the thing that I love
about it is that it is also a relationship show
(23:20):
that is moving things forward in the conversation, and people
are being drawn to it in a very powerful way
because I think they are hungry for progress in terms
of men and intimacy and how we can see this
playing out in a way that we also relate to
and aren't judging like it's so powerful, it's shocking. It's
(23:42):
about hockey. Okay, So I didn't watch it for months
and now I can not stop talking about it. But
it reminds me of when our show came on in
terms of, you know, there was this whole negative reaction
which we expected very much of, like, you know, women
don't talk this way, and you know, how dare they?
And I remember this one article. I've mentioned it many times.
(24:04):
Sorry listeners, you've heard me, But there's an article in
Wall Street Journal a male critic saying, you know, I
wouldn't date any of these women except maybe the nice
brunette one. Do you mean that was supposed to be
like a compliment to me. I'm like, no, no, that guy,
like you know what I'm saying. I mean, it was
just so intense and we expected it, but the joy
(24:27):
came in the wider embrace of women and gay men,
basically saying, oh, thank god, you know, someone's opening the
door to let some air in some light.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, it was very exciting at the time.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah it was, and it was exciting for us for sure.
And back to the expectations part, and we can just
bop around and I hope my listeners will come with us.
This is how I roll one time. And I think
it was right around the third season. This is when
the third season is when number one creatively. I feel
like everything started to really gel and these long storylines
started to pay off. And also, you know, more and
(25:05):
more people were able to watch because HBO used to be,
you know, very kind of niche. They said to us,
we want to put you on the cover of Time magazine,
and we're like, oh my god, amazing. So they took
a picture and then they put on the title is
Who Needs a Husband? And it hangs in my closet
still because I really love it. I still really love it, right,
(25:30):
I mean like it was kind of revolutionary then. And
then if you look at the numbers now in terms
of single women, women who are getting divorced and have
no interest in getting remarried, women who are self sufficient economically.
You know, it's so thrilling the openings that have happened.
And yes, there is a whole constricting sidebar, but I'd
(25:51):
like to ignore them right now, you know. I just
like to put them over there, because I do feel
like we want to progress. I feel like human beings
want to progress and have more freedom. Everyone should have
freedom to choose and be who they want to be
without judgment. That's how we're all going to be happier
and be kinder to each other and have a better
(26:12):
world than in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
And we also we still I mean there's still the
problem of having to live with each other.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yes, yes, so we need.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
We need certain kind of regulation constraints on ourselves. I
mean there is still I mean, we're always going to
need socialization. Yes, you know, dogs socialize each other. We
we we're gonna need somewhere. But it would be nice
to have more breathing.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Group definitely, definitely, And I feel like that's the future.
I hope. It's just horribly bumpy right now, you know.
And that's the thing that I love about what we
do in our field is that, you know, we are
somewhat in a bubble. Sometimes people criticize that bubble and understand,
but also you know, you can create things and the
(26:57):
people who want to find it can find it.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, but I also think that I mean, for example,
this show, I mean, it's it's there's a certain kind
of social responsibility of a show like yours, because you're
you're you're putting out there the coordinates of how one
(27:20):
can think of relationships, yes, and and and people look
to that and and they measure themselves against that, you know,
they they they I mean, TV is like the most
powerful medium on earth now and it really tells people
(27:42):
like how how can I live? What's okay? Right? What
makes sense? And what's intelligible. It's it's it's an important medium.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
It really is. It really is, and it's important to
have choices within that. And that's what we have to
keep pushing forward on. We're not even gonna talk about
where our industry is right now. But you know, the
good people at HBO or fight in a good fight
and they will continue to do so, so we love
them for that. Let's go back to carry in the
(28:24):
cheating for a second. So I love because we're talking
to an expert. Okay, So We've got the situation where
we have Aiden and she would like to somehow be
the girl that Aiden wants or that Aiden is seeing
or projecting onto her right, but she's having internal struggles
to do that, and you know, probably for other reasons. Also,
(28:46):
she goes and cheats with Big. Now my question that
I have, and again this is all my stuff. I
feel like she and Big have what I would call
unfinished business right, like they didn't really work things out fully.
And that's a hard thing. Now I know that you
cannot really necessarily complete or whatever you would like to
(29:08):
call it, sometimes without help, like you need some person
like yourself or something to help you. But obviously Carrie
is not a therapy person. She goes to therapy for
one episode and ends up sleeping with a character there
who's played by John bon Jovi, and at the end
of that, yeah, you don't remember that. It's really funny.
It's really funny. She meets him in the waiting room
(29:31):
and of course he's Jump bon Jovi. He's very cute,
and they go on a day there's a lot of chemistry.
Then they have sex and they're laying in bed afterwards,
and she says, oh, you know, I never asked you
why are you? Why are you going to therapy? And
he goes, oh, I'm paraphrasing, but he goes, oh, I
have this issue. You know, I sleep with women and
then I never call them again.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Oh god, it's terrible.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
It's terrible.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I know.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
So she's like, well, I guess I just shouldn't go
to therapy. That's where she goes. That's her her solution
to that is that's her out, that's her out exactly.
I also had this other client, this client, not a client,
a guest on the podcast who said to me, Oh,
you know, I was watching from this perspective because one
of the things I love about the show is like,
at different times in your life, you'll see different things
(30:18):
in the characters based on your own experience. And she said,
when I was watching this time, I thought, what is
Carrie's trauma? And I said, you know, we're never gonna
we're never going to look at that. We don't use
that word in the show, but like, what do you
make of that? Like that word is used a lot. Now,
what do you think of that?
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Well, it's sometimes relevant, very relevant. I mean I have
people that come into my office and like in a
first session, I will already be asking that question because
it's very palpable in the room, that there's like haunting
of something. Yes, but it's certainly not relevant the way
it's used now in the population. I mean, people use
(31:01):
the term trauma so loosely and so freely it's disturbing.
I mean, the fact that people go through hardships, or
have difficult periods in their lives, or get particularly upset
by certain things that is not trauma. And the fact
(31:22):
that early experiences in life shape later in life doesn't
mean you've had trauma. In my world, in the therapeutic world,
the or trauma is used very you know, decipheringly, like you,
trauma is something that really exceeds your capacity to process.
(31:42):
It's something very abnormal that shatters something in you. It's
not just difficulty. And in that sense, I mean, honestly,
I don't think I've thought even once watching Sex and
the City about trauma within of the characters got it.
I agree, it seemed to me like pretty healthy, alive people.
(32:08):
It never occurred to me to ask that question. That's good.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
I agree with you totally. I agree with you, and
I think also just from a writing perspective. What we
were trying to do was not be trying to dig
back words, you know, because most people are just living
their lives and doing the best they can and struggling
with the things that they're struggling with that we're all
struggling with, which is really the point of the show,
you know. Yes, And I wouldn't. I don't look at
(32:33):
carry and think what's her trauma? Either? I mean, I think,
as you said, sometimes we are playing out something that
might be based on your childhood that you don't know
that you haven't unearthed. But that's not necessarily right, that's
not trauma, that's just let right, that's just.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Being a layered person who carries a history. And sometimes
the history is even before your parents. It could be
your grandparents. You know.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yes, trauma, right, that's important. I think that's important to say. Now.
Could we also just touch for a second on the
narcissist thing and how everyone online wants to call everyone
else a narcissist? What is going on?
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah? Well, again, similar to what I said about trauma,
In my professional world, we use the term narcissists for
only very particular situations and particular personality organizations. People can
be selfish, people can be annoying, they can be disappointing.
(33:35):
It doesn't make them narcissists. The fact that somebody is
not giving you what you want from them doesn't make
them a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Be disappointing in many different ways and maybe a good
reason to turn away from them or not. But narcissism
is not necessarily what we're talking about, right. Narcissism in
professional terms has to do with a real kind of
fragility in sorry to use technical terms, but like the
(34:10):
ego structure, where there's the person has to gather up
a lot of resources to keep shoring up their sense
of self, which leaves them quite fragile and leaves them
with little that they can give outside of themselves because
they keep having to re pull together their very damaged,
(34:35):
yeah damage sense of self. It's a very particular personality
organization that is quite painful for the narcissists themselves. They
might need to put up a lot of bolstering and
show around them, but it's really based around something quite
a deep deficit. But there are other ways that people
(34:59):
use the term narcis that are just basically expressing their
frustration with the people around them, right.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I think like they basically mean selfish. They perceive the
other persons being selfish, which is obviously not does not
equate to a full narcissistic person. Or there's also narcissistic
tendencies right, right, which we.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
All can have narcissistic tendencies. Anyone who's like looked at children,
I mean children start off with plenty of ego centrism
and narcissistic tendencies and attempts to build the ego, and
we can all revert back to that under certain conditions.
There are some people that under the best conditions are
(35:41):
like the most generous and open as they can be.
But you put them under conditions of stress or conditions
that threaten them, and they will become they will they're
narcissistic tendencies will show up, right, So that's not narcissist.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Described narcissism to me one time as like the person
has had to create a house of cards for their identity,
and so it's a very fragile thing that's been built.
And then if one gets pulled out, like if an
event or a personal situation is like so stressful to
them as like one gets pulled out and the whole
thing falls, and then there can be very i don't
(36:24):
know what, like a defensive type behavior because they're trying
to protect the fragile. It helped me. I mean, there's
a lot of people in our industry who might be
having some narcissistic tendencies at least, so it was helpful
to think about it because it's very easy to just feel,
you know, upset about how that person might be acting. Right,
(36:45):
But then if you try to actually think about what's
happening inside them, you have a lot more empathy. Which
doesn't mean you don't have to protect yourself from it,
but you can at least have some empathy for what
is happening over there and maybe some understanding.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I guess like that description a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Well, thank you, thank you. It was a professional like
yourself who told me it was really helpful.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Though.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
It was really helpful because sometimes you're just like why
why is this person acting like this? Like what what
what is happening? I'm just over here doing like normal
nice things and they're like upset with me. But somehow
you you're you're in a situation with them that has
pushed buttons or you know, threatened them in some way, or.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Can I can I ask you a couple of questions. Yes,
I have both a question about the episode that we
were focusing on, and I have a more general question okay,
but more specifically about the episode. How did you feel
about the whole preenup, the prenup and especially like the
(37:48):
allocation of extra funds for the boy?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Oh my god, I mean I was so stressed by
the whole thing, and you know, it was It's interesting
because I'm not somebody who's ever focused on man. I
come from the South where everyone was like that, So
it really was, you know, playing Charlotte in general, who
wants these things so badly? And I certainly knew people
(38:11):
who felt that they needed to fulfill these expectations of
society and whatnot. It pushed a lot of buttons for me.
And sometimes I would just be like, oh god, you know,
and I would want to really like my own Christian
reaction would be much bigger, probably than Charlotte's. But because
Charlotte is Charlotte, you know, I had to really work
(38:33):
hard to filter my own, my own thoughts and feelings.
And when I watched back and Miranda. We're at that
scene where Miranda is reading the prenup, and I mean
Charlotte in general just doesn't even want a prenup because
to her, that's not romance, that's not love, you know,
which I fully fully get. Of course, if I ever
did get married, which I don't expect you, I would
(38:55):
definitely have a prenup. But you know, I get that
she's just like, you know, she doesn't want to live
in reality. She Charlotte is you know, she has created
an elaborate, beautiful world in her mind and I really
relate to that part, and she doesn't want to be
brought down to life. And part of the whole Tray relationship,
(39:17):
as it was presented to me before we filmed it
was that that this is what it was going to be.
On the one hand, it was going to look like
the shiny perfect goal and the reality was going to
be very, very different, and she was going to have
to try to find out who she was it within
those two things not matching, which I loved because that
(39:39):
is it's life, right.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, it's chapter two of my book.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Are Fantastic. I can't wait to read it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I might use the character go for it, babe.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So when we got to the prenup thing, I was
very scared about that whole episode. I was scared mostly
about when I have to say to Bunny, I'm worth
a million. Yeah, partly because it he's just so profoundly uncomfortable,
you know, to be not not that I didn't want
to try to stand up. I thought that it's great
(40:09):
that Charlotte's trying to stand up for herself, but also
it's just like embarrassing to be to be putting a
number on yourself, what the heck, you know. And I
remember at the time there were a few times in
this storyline, because it's really the more in depth storyline
so far that I've gotten right where there'd just be
a lot of the writers would just be like Jenny Biks,
who wrote this episode, would be like, you know, you
(40:31):
have to really like they were just very anxious about
what I was going to do. So I was trying
to find they want. They wanted me to like really
powerfully present myself to Bunny, but my feeling was I'm
still Charlotte, so you know, her version of powerful is
not going to be my version of powerful necessarily. And
(40:53):
also I'm much much younger at this point. I've never
been in any of these situations, and I just just
felt like it's it's uncomfortable, you know. And when I
watched it, I did like it better than I expected
because it's simple. I thought it was good that it
was simple. And also Frances Stern Haggen just such a
great actress who played Bunny and so present with me,
(41:16):
which is always so helpful. But when we looked at
the scene of Miranda reading the prenup, I was just
gagged that there's a price for boys and no, Also like,
what on earth, Like, I mean, tear that paper up?
You know, that's my feeling. I was shocked. I didn't
even really remember it, and I wish there was a
(41:36):
whole time too where they used to say to me
Charlotte wouldn't get angry, and I was like, you guys, what, Yeah,
like what is she doing with all these feelings? Then?
Like what is happening? And I remember towards the end
of the when the tray situation is not going well
and we're not having sex, which is of course horrible,
(41:58):
and you know, he doesn't really want to work on it,
which is all so horrible, And eventually I do kind
of get to start to get angry, thank god. But
I had said to them, you know, you guys, in
Charlotte's white apartment, there's going to be a closet, and
you're going to open the closet and there's going to
be little body parts of all the men that she's
chopped up and wrapped in cell a fane and put
in there. Because that's what would happen if she literally
(42:20):
is never angry, Like, yeah, right, that's insane. So but
I think also in the beginning, we had the kind
of archetypes of who the characters were supposed to be,
and over time we got to deepen and deepen and
you know, expand. But what did you think when you
when you saw that part.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, generally, I have I'm very fond of Charlotte's character.
I mean, I just think she's holding on to like
a certain kind of idealism or optimism that I you knows,
as a realist as I am, I have that in me.
It's very important for a couples therapist, for therapists generally
(43:01):
to have that. So so her sweetness and her idealism
always speak to me. But that part of it, I
was just like this is not too much too much.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Definitely agree, definitely and like the.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Like the it connected me to the way I feel
about like you know, like I had a friend years ago,
a woman who said to me, I would never go
to a female doctor. Oh, And I was like, how
is it that women have internalized this kind of self hating?
Like how what this bunny? Like what what do you
(43:44):
mean a prenup? The like values boys more like women
internalize this this exploitation Like yes, I don't know, it's
it's maddening.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I mean, that's another whole book. Yeah, we have so
much evidence in the world of this deep internalization of
the patriarchy. It's really mind boggling. And it goes on
and on. But also I have a fourteen year old daughter,
and it's interesting, you know, she's really at the age
(44:17):
where I struggle with how much to tell her about
the world, you know, and how deep to go. No
one really talked to me when I was that age
about these things. But I do feel like my eyes
have really been opened by life. You know, I'm sixty,
so I've obviously seen a lot, been through a lot,
and you know, with things going on now, you know,
(44:39):
such as the Epstein files like, it's huge. It purred
me so much of our daily lives.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
It's everywhere, all the time.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Exactly, And so I do feel I've started to without
I try not to scare her. I don't want her
to be riddled with fear, but at the same time,
I I feel like I need to say to her,
you know, there's this situation in life, ye unfortunately that
you need.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
To be aware of but and fight not be afraid.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Absolutely, yes, yeah, absolutely, but like for her because I
should probably not say all this, but you know, sometimes
she wants to do things, you know how she's fourteen.
She wants to go out with her friends and do
things or whatever. And I'm like, no, you can't go there.
I'm sorry, I have to go with you. And she's like, no, mom,
no one else's mom comes And I said, well, maybe
I'll stay a little distance and just watch, you know.
(45:31):
I mean, like, I just have anxiety about her out
in the world alone with her friends, because I don't
feel at fourteen that they really know all of the
things that could happen. They don't, right, thank you. I
need you to call her and tell her, because she
says to me, she says to me, Mom, I would
know if someone had bad intentions. I'm like, baby, no, no,
(45:53):
so cute that you think that. And then she's like,
I would just punch them, and like that is adorable.
But it's so much more complicated, you know. But it's
like the it's such a conundrum about like safety versus
knowledge versus feeling powerful. You want them to feel powerful
within it, not that it's like overwhelming and going to
(46:15):
get them. But on the other hand, it does permeate everything.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
It does. I don't think we can I don't think
as parents we can like deal with a safety issue
other than you know, like you're saying, like be there
and watch. But safety is something that's mostly out of
our hands. But what we can do is like help
(46:39):
our kids understand what are the ideological forces that are
right in front of them, like patriarchy, like the way
masculinity is defined absolutely, you know, women internalizing patriarchy. It's
(46:59):
those are the two that I think as parents, it's
really important to kind of keep giving our kids.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Great good I'm doing that. I'll keep doing that. That's good.
That's good. So wait, what else were you going to
ask me? You said, questions?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I was going to ask you more in general about
the gap between you and the character. How does that?
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It's funny because now it's been twenty eight years that
i've been playing a right not the whole time. We've
had breaks, obviously, but people are always asking me like,
where's the difference, And when we started, people would ask
me that, and I get to have a very specific
list of like this is Charlotte characteristics, these are Christian characteristics.
But after all this time, it's really hard to do.
But I don't feel I feel like she's part of me,
(47:55):
but she's not me, you know what I'm saying. But
she is me because she's not someone else. You know
what I'm saying. It's weird. It's a weird thing. But
I love her. I love her desperately. You know.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
She's very lovable, she really is.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
And she's lovable because she really tries hard, you know,
and she is willing to change. Like her the whole
idea of the Tray situation was that she was going
to be pursuing this goal. No matter what she was
going to get it. It wasn't going to be what
she thought. It was going to look great on the outside,
not be great on the inside, and she was going
(48:30):
to have to deal with that, like what does that
really mean to her? How important is it to actually
have the true love she talks about? Right? Yea, and
thank god she she It was not easy, right. And
also the first idea was that Kyle would only come
in as Tray for like five episodes. It would all
happen very quickly, but that he would be very dull.
He was supposed to be very boring, like that kind
(48:51):
of couple where like no one wants to talk to
the other person, like the friends are like, who's going
to talk to the husband? You know, like that. But
he was played by Kyle, so he wasn't very boring.
He was fantastic and all of us were just collectively
in love with him, right, So he stayed and it
became more complex as a result of us loving him
(49:12):
so much and what he brought to the character and
how kind of you know, off he made it just
slightly offbeat and interesting in terms of you didn't know
what was happening over there. Yeah. So then he stayed longer,
which I thought was good, and we got to kind
of I haven't rewatched all, but we got to kind
of go deeper into you know, what are the issues
(49:33):
with the intimacy? What's that about? And then she tries
to hall MD to therapy, but he doesn't really want
to participate, which is really heartbreaking. You know, when you
have the things that you think are going to be
amazing for your entire future. Like Charlotte is loyal. You know,
she's going to try her best, and I love that
about her. But then when it falls apart and Harry
(49:54):
shows up as her divorce lawyer, who looks nothing like
anything she would ever have thought of, but in fact
truly inside who she needs and wants, and she makes
it work and she pivots, you know, she changes. Love that, Yeah,
love that. I love him And we just saw him
last night. We gave Sara Jesska an award, which was
so wonderful, and Evan came and you know, I just
(50:17):
he was on the press line with me. And I
take Evan for granted so much because I've had him
so long, but like just hearing his voice just gives
me so much comfort, Like just working together over time,
you know, in the way that we've been able to
all of our people. I feel that way about But
you know, he's really been with me for a long time.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Like it's kind of amazing.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
But I love that about Charlotte. I love that Charlotte,
you know, like also with her children. She has these children,
she thinks they're going to be a certain way. Of
course they're not. She has to pivot again, you know.
I love the ability, even though she doesn't appear on
the outside, like she's the person who's going to be
able to do that, the insights, she's going to do
the work to try to get there. I love that
(50:59):
about her. Yeah, but it is sometimes hard to separate.
For sure.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
She has she changed you.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
I mean I think so. You know, that's that's a hard,
hard thing. It's hard to say because obviously the experience
of doing the show has changed me. It's changed all
of our lives so much. Sure, and we love each
other so much, and we've been through this just insane experience,
you know, for twenty eight years. I mean, we've filmed
a film in Morocco, like we you know, we've traveled
(51:31):
the world. It's just been unbelievable. Plus we've spent eighteen
hours a day together for years. Right, So it's a
very unusual and deep and intimate relationship with the actual
people behind the camera and on camera. That's hard to
separate characters. Yeah, yeah, the characters. We've all been with
(51:54):
our characters forever, and we've all been in these scenes together, right,
so like yeah, just as an actor knowing the other
actors so well, yeah, it is. It's just so unique
and amazing and I'm so grateful. I cannot I could
never have dreamt of this, you know, as an actor,
(52:16):
you're just trying to find any job, you know, for
two months or whatever. But it's just been a bounty
of joy and depth, and you know, we've been through
it all together really, so it's been incredible and I
can't really at this point kind of separate them out
really yeah. Yeah, but in a good way, you know,
(52:36):
in a good way. Okay, wait, let's talk about cheating again,
because I do feel like people are just fascinated by
this and talk about I feel like, in the world
cheating and or just sexuality chemistry, like it's so confusing
to think about, Like, Okay, so Big and Carrie have
this chemistry, right, And she says at one point, like
(52:58):
why does something so oh bad feels so good? And
Samantha says, well, it's created that way. Like as a therapist, Well,
how would you advise clients about such things?
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Are you asking me? What do I advise clients about cheating?
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Yeah? Or just a chemistry part or you know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Like, I know that's hard to diplomatically avoid that question.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Okay, fair enough, fair enough, I guess it's hard to know,
Like I mean for myself as a single person, right,
And there's all these people who talk about Like I'm
this one friend who said to me, like, you need
to go out and be bored on a date. And
I was like, but why come on, I'd rather be
home with my kids. I don't want to go be
bored on a date, you know. But she's like, you
need to do something different. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I
(53:44):
get it.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
And not that I want to dissect my own self
necessarily though obviously partly I do, or I wouldn't bring
that up. But okay, so, like it's it's hard for
me to want to do that, Like, if there's not chemistry,
I don't see the fucking point. Is that just me
(54:07):
being like not grown up? No?
Speaker 2 (54:10):
I look, there are many there are many channels that
make us want to connect to other people to attach, right,
And it depends on what what's the primary need you're
operating from. I mean, do you are you? I mean
it sounds like you're saying what you're looking for is
(54:31):
something interesting?
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yes, so.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Great, that's what you need right now, because probably you
have a lot of the other things already dealt with
in your life. I do, And that's the thing that
you're looking for. I mean, someone else might be seeking security, right.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
See. I never understood that stability, right, I never understood
that either that people would need that, that you would
look to a man for that. I don't. I don't
feel I don't that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Forget about man, not man. But you can imagine that
certain people, let's say, I mean it doesn't have to
be related to this, but let's say they've had a
very unstable early life, and what they really in their
heart of hearts or in their bones, what they're missing
is some sense of like predictability, it's to even start
(55:26):
going on being right, So for them, you know what
they're looking for. More, what's more important is that is
some sense of stability of companionship, you know, the non interest, right,
I mean, think of it as masslows hierarchy of needs.
I don't know what's more important. It really depends on
(55:47):
what are the deficits you're coming with or where you
are in your life, right, right, and different reasons to
attach to a person and right.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
I was always looking for adventure, travel, intimacy, excitement, like
things that are not like marriage e type things journy
mean or at least whatever the cliche is, I guess,
but my thing now is that. So then I found
myself thinking, oh my gosh, I think I want to
(56:19):
have children. So I adopted two children. Now I'm, you know,
very much in mommy mode when I'm not working, because
it's kind of a lot, right, Like, yeah, you know,
it's a lot, And it's also you know, a very
different kind of intimacy obviously, but like it's very intimate
to raise.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
Children, extremely intimate. Right.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
So it in some ways I feel like it uses
that muscle or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
I don't know how to put it, but supplies that need.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
Yeah, it does, it really does. So I don't really
I don't really feel like, oh my gosh, I'm missing
so much. But then I also feel and I'd love
to know your thoughts on this. I also feel like
there is a part of me that is not kind
of being challenged and or growing because I'm not in
(57:07):
an intimate relationship yep. And I don't know. I don't
know how to make that happen so that, but I
do feel I do feel like there. I feel in
a way like I'm chickening out. Do you know I
do I.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I mean, obviously I don't know you enough personally to
really say something. But I think one of the things
that an intimate relationship pulls for or makes us grow
is going back to the idea of selfishness, is the
idea of like it asks you to move outside of yourself,
(57:51):
and children do that, Yes, children do that more than anything. Yes,
Like You're constantly having to prioritize some other sense of subjectivity.
You have to try to imagine what it's like for
someone else, you have to deprioritize your own needs. It's
it's a it's and that's a huge important lesson. We
grow from that. It's it's everything that will take us
(58:16):
out of ourselves. So in that sense, you're you're you're
probably doing plenty in that realm.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
I mean, the other thing that I think romantic relationships
do is it has something to do with the realm
of like it's a different it's different intimacy when it's
like peer to peer intimacy, when it's not like a
parent child or or the other way around, taking care
of an elderly parent, it's it's peer to peer. And
(58:49):
then obviously the dimension of sexuality over time, which is
a whole other complex world. Sexuality over time, I'm not
just the thrill of like new new, but the thrill
of not the thrill, the getting to know someone on
that level over time. That's it's whole another world. Not
(59:14):
everyone is good at not everyone.
Speaker 1 (59:15):
Wants right, right. I mean, I was in a really
long relationship where I do feel like that happened and
was really great. But then there were other outside world
things that got in the way, which I'm sure also
had to do with my choosing. You know, I have
like whatever, because I wasn't choosing for safety and security
(59:35):
right and I didn't really think I was choosing for
life necessarily either. But I did stay for a very
long time. But one thing that I do think of
which I wouldn't say, except that I really love you
and I trust you, I feel like one of the
messages that I got somehow in my early childhood was
that it's hard to hold onto myself in a relationship,
like I lose myself. And there was a time when
(59:59):
I did this to try to have children on my own.
I was around forty something when I started thinking about it.
I kind of felt like, well, I'm kind of just
caretaking and not parenting, but like caretaking these men, I
should just raise some children, you know. But yeah, I
don't know how to necessarily do both, because I don't
(01:00:22):
think I could. I don't know if I could, I
should say, don't know yet. And I haven't tried really
lately to really keep myself because now that I have
the children, the children really need me. I can't give
myself up to a relationship. And I don't know how
to reconcile that in my mind. Obviously, if I've met
the right person, maybe, but you kind of have to
work to meet the right people. Yeah, and I'm definitely
(01:00:43):
not doing it, meaning go and meet them, yes, like
actually like leave the house. You know what I'm saying, right,
Because people have wanted to put me on the apps,
you know. Sarah Jeska at one point threatened to make
them profile for me, and I was like, unless you
are available to come on every one of those dates
with me, right, please don't do it, because I I
(01:01:04):
just don't know if I have the band with I
just it's I don't I don't know how to balance it,
I guess, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
But kind of going back to the one of the
first things you started talking about, and do you have to?
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
No, I do not have to. I've got to take
my sweater off. I do not have to. And that's
the thing too, is like, like Sir Jessica said to
me last night when we were at this thing, She
was like, I need an update, and I said, I don't.
I don't. I don't have an update, And I always
feel terrible, like she wants me to be happy. She
means the best, of course, right, but I just I
(01:01:44):
just don't know what how to. It doesn't seem to
be a priority. You know, there's sometimes when I think
about it, I think life is short, Like what the
fuck am I doing?
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
You're raising kids?
Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Okay, profession okay, okay, good, good, okay, good, But you
know that it's like that societal pressure of like people
don't quite know what to make of it. When you're
just like, yes, I'm single, Yes I've been single kind
of a long time, you know, like they're just like, oh,
something must be horribly wrong with her, like it's an
interesting thing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Yeah, I'm I'm not into that whole hegemony.
Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yes, it's so true. It's so true. It's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Also, look around us. I mean, people are now choosing
all sorts of ways to live that are not only
like you know, the heterosexual couple right love it all
these other ways that people live now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
It's definitely definitely. Also there's this great article. I don't
know how much of this kind of stuff you see,
but this woman in England wrote this article about how
it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend. Oh no, yeah, it
went just blew up because it was basically saying, you
know how people present on social media and it looks
(01:03:01):
so glossy and amazing and blah blah blah. And it
used to be like the flex was to have your
hot man there on vacation with you wherever, and then
after a while it seemed like that was like you're
just giving your power away, you know, like like why
like why does this amazing woman need to have a
man like like that's boring, you know, it's just really
(01:03:25):
fascinating and I love to watch just the reactions to
all to all the things like this and the changes.
And of course, as you said, it's it's not a
global situation where we're all changing, obviously, but there's inroads
I feel like, and I love to see them. It
makes me excited, you know. But yeah, that's one of
the things I love about your show too, is you
(01:03:46):
have so many different couples with so many different backgrounds
and expectations and kind of paving their own road forward,
and you're helping them do that and also understanding the
outside societal issues that they're also come bumping up against, right, Yeah,
I mean constant, absolutely constant. I mean I just try
(01:04:09):
never to discuss my dating life with anybody, necessarily in person,
so that they don't ask me twenty million questions that
I can't answer, do you know what I mean? Like
what like why are you single? You know, and I'm
just like, oh god, it's a story, okay, you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Know, No, this is not a legitimate question why are
you single? It's like asking someone why are you gay?
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Good? Good?
Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Why are you great?
Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
That's good? That's what I'm gonna say. That's what I'm
gonna say next time. I'm gonna say doctor Orne says this.
I love it. But I mean, really, what we're talking
about too, is just you have to create the freedom
to be yourself in that moment. Yeah, and that might
not be forever, but it is my moment right now.
It's not a priority.
Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
I do sometimes beat myself up about it, but it's
just not actually a priority.
Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
You know. Well, I approve, thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Oh you know what, I have such an interesting question
to ask you. I have no idea what you're going
to say, because I only know you as your doctor
self from watching your show. But I ask everyone who
comes on the show this, are you a Charlotte doctor Orna?
Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Oh, that's the title of the It is generally no, Okay,
Other than what I said earlier, this like the magic
dust of idealism. Yeah, I definitely have that.
Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
I love.
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Yeah, you would need that in your job for sure.
For sure, because you also need to give it. You
need to have a present in the room because people
are just going through so much when they come to you. Yeah,
and I do think that's the most bestest part of Charlotte. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I love it. Would you say if you had to
(01:05:58):
be placing yourself with another I think the obvious choice
for you would be a Miranda who's like super intellect
and straight talking. At least that's how I think of her.
Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
I don't know, Yeah, I think. I mean, on some
I think i'd say that I identify with each of
the characters.
Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Amazing. Yeah, that's great, that's what we want, that's what
we want. That's a great answer. That's a great answer.
I don't know if we talked about the show enough,
but I love everything we talked about. I love everything
we talked about because I wanted the bigger picture and
I wanted your professional opinion on some of it, because
(01:06:40):
I do feel like, on the one hand, is I
don't I don't think it's a bad thing that people
want to kind of try to analyze stuff online or whatever,
even though obviously they're not all doctors, because I do
feel like people are searching, right They're searching for what
is the truth of this what is the you know,
what should I do in this relationship? What is the
(01:07:00):
truth of our society?
Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
You know?
Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
All of those things, and they don't they don't necessarily
know what to say, you know, so like they grab
onto kind of easy answers or whatever. But also I
do know, just from a therapeutic standpoint that of course
you have a you know, much higher standard of how
you would use those terms that I think are It's
important to hear that, yeah, and be reminded of it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Even though I think people air a lot in the
overuse of terms like narcissism and trauma, I'm also glad
that people are interested in these kind of psychological ways
of like parsing out the world.
Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
Absolutely, it's good. Absolutely, Absolutely, it's a beginning, right, like
maybe they'll search more.
Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Yeah, we just need to get more refined and responsible
with how we use the terms.
Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Definitely, definitely. Well, let me let you go to your patient,
and we really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm a big, big fan. I
can't wait to see more shows. Gay bye, great day.
Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Bye,
Hi, I'm Kristin Davis, and I want to know are
you a Charlotte? Well, hello, hello, hello, everybody, welcome back
to Are You a Charlotte? We have such a thrilling
guest today. I have been trying to get her on
for quite some time. I'm a very big fan. Is
(00:22):
doctor Orna Geralnik. She is incredible. You may know her
from Couple's Therapy, which is on Paramount Plus Now. It's
a great, great show where she is actually a therapist
to actual, real people. She is a true psychologist and
psychoanalyst practicing in New York City. She's on the faculty
(00:43):
at NYU. Her academic instruction examines intergenerational trauma, the intersection
of socio political ideology, and psychoanalysis, disassociation and depersonalization. Doesn't
that sound am amazing? She's really, really smart and I
am so excited because I have her on today to
(01:06):
talk about one of the really intense episodes where Carrie
is cheating with Big behind Aiden's back, It's all or Nothing.
This episode aired August thirteenth, in the year two thousand,
is directed by Charles McDougall and written by the incredible
Jenny Bicks. So we're going to break it down. We're
going to talk about some bigger kind of cultural psychoanalysis
(01:33):
type therapy things, and then also I'm going to break
down the episode a little bit later on my own.
So please enjoy. I hope you love it. She's so great.
Thank you so so much for joining me. I am
the biggest fan. A mutual friend told me to watch
Couple's Therapy and I said, oh, I'm really worried about
watching it because I'm not in a relationship and I'm
(01:55):
worried that it will never make me want to get
into one. And it was totally opposite. It's so beautiful,
the people coming to you and really doing the work.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I know, it's I have to say, like being you know,
I'm writing a book now about couples, and I'm kind
of scanning the history of my work with couples over
the years, and it has made me believe more and
more in humanity.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Oh that's so nice. We need that right now.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, we definitely do.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
We definitely do. And it's just so great because also
you have such a great variety of people human beings
and what they're going through, and it really reminds you
of how we're connected and similar, even though we might
not realize that all the time. You know, everyone's right,
there's like struggling with the same things. And part of
the reason that I want to do I know this
is not your normal podcast that you would come on to,
(02:52):
so I really really appreciate it. But part of what
I love is that you do talk about and kind
of connect culture in terms of relationships. And I mean,
for me, I feel like you have insight into how
we're talking about things, and for me, for our show
(03:13):
for Sex and the City, especially when it started, which
was nineteen ninety eight, well quite a long time ago.
You know, we really wanted to at the time create
a new way of talking about relationships that was female centered,
you know, female empowering, talking about things that people weren't
talking about. Now, it's funny to me that in twenty
(03:34):
twenty five, this is still kind of a relevant thing,
and I would love your perspective on it and your
perspective on how culture relates to our expectations in relationships
because people have a lot to say. You know, people
have a lot of projection onto shows and characters, and
you know, they have a lot of deep feelings, like Oh,
(03:55):
Carrie's a narcissist. You know, everyone likes to call everyone
a narcissist. Now it's a very fascinating thing. But like,
what is your perspective on all of this, how do
they connect?
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Well, really big questions. Sorry, I mean to just like gory.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Yeah, yes, Well I.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Must start by saying that I loved Sex and the
City at the time.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
And my daughter, who's twenty five is she told me
that she knows episode episode by episode by heart.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
I love that. Thank you, Oh tell her, thank you
so much.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Transferred along the generations level. Yeah, so look, I think
you know, Freud already talked about how mm hmm our connection,
(04:50):
our our sexual connection to other people is not like
a private event. It's always sort of it lives in
the context of like the social right, where we have
our desires and then we have society to contend with.
So we're always to some degree kind of mediating between
like all sorts of impulses and the culture that we
(05:11):
live in, right, and it's there's always some interesting tension there.
So in that sense, I find that couples are kind
of like a perfect arena, like the in which like
the or relationships are the perfect arena between like what
(05:32):
are our impulses individuals and what are the messages we're
getting from the culture at large about how to be
a human? And I do think like your show is
very much about that sort of how do you navigate
individuality and where does it live within the culture at large?
(05:54):
And how much freedom? How many degrees of freedom do
we have? And I feel like what Sex and the
City has done, is it carved out way more degrees
of freedom for women just in terms of like understanding
how to think about themselves and how to think about
relationships and how to think about sexuality. And I think
about friendship super important, absolutely, So I mean we can
(06:17):
talk about lots of things in terms of what are
those tensions?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
And I know, I mean, I think that's really well put.
And I think it's like permission. Sometimes you need something
reflecting back to you that you have permission to, you know,
be certain ways. Like Samantha is a perfect example kind
of a different character than we had previously seen on television,
(06:43):
really embracing her singleness, her sexuality, her freedom to choose,
you know, not being judged. This particular episode is an
interesting one. I had totally forgotten. I really haven't rewatched
this until now, you know, which is many many years.
I always loved our show, but I'm having so much
more appreciation for the writing and you know, all the
(07:05):
different elements and the ways that we you know, even
each character goes through different moments that you forget, and
then you're like, oh, no, here's Samantha. She gets sick,
she call goes through her black book, calling her sex partners.
No one will come over to help her rehang her curtain,
which I, as a single woman, totally relate to. Right,
(07:25):
who is going to help you hang your curtain? You
got to call a handyman, this is what I've learned.
You cannot call a casual you know, date. But this
episode is called all or Nothing, which I really love
in It aired in two thousand, which is also so
crazy to me that it's just so relatable, you know,
forever these things. And then when she's sick and she
(07:47):
has a fever, Samantha, who we think is being completely
free and without judgment and not shackled by these societal
expectations of marriage, She's all of a sudden saying, I
should I've gotten married? You know, it is really kind
of heartbreaking, but then when she gets well, she's like, no, no,
I was just having a moment. But it's so freeing.
(08:11):
It's like a breath of fresh air, you know, to
have that character be so powerful, and so many people
still talk to me about that character, and it's kind
of amazing that we don't have more characters like her,
But I do feel like it has it is more
acceptable now to be someone who's saying, I am proudly
a Samantha, Yeah, and rightly. So you can choose your
(08:34):
own situation and be free. Now, do you feel like
if you look at it from your perspective and what
you're seeing, Because you're seeing clients all the time who
are in it, like living in relationships, trying to define
their roles in relationships. And I have friends who are divorced,
friends who are still married, younger friends who are looking
to get married. And someone was just talking to me
(08:55):
yesterday about how he's been divorced he's going to get remarried.
And he said, you know, I was in a top
sick relationship and I was pulling all the weight and
earning the money and she wasn't doing anything. And I said,
did you guys talk about this, like, did you ever
talk about this, you know, you know when you're and
he's a guy obviously, and he said, well, I just
thought that she was a partner and she would be
(09:16):
a partner. And I said, but you you have to
discuss this stuff. You have to negotiate it together, because
there's a huge range of expectations. Right, So it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Right, huge range of expectations. How do people imagine relationships work?
But also each person has their own perspective, right, this person,
this friend of yours, might have thought that he's pulling
all the weight in one domain, but not aware at
all of some other domain in which she felt like
she's pulling all the weight.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I'm sure, yes, I am sure. I mean, of course,
I saw a great clip of you talking about people
people wanting to change their partner, and you're saying, you
know that there is this kind of unspoken thing that
happens in therapy where you go to therapy and you think,
like I really want to change that person, and doctor
(10:06):
Ornan is gonna help me. Yes, Well that's not really
the game, that's not really the thing that you want
to do.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
It's not no, And really that's how most therapies start.
Most couple's therapies start with like each of them kind
of dragging the other one into the office and kind
of winking at me. Change them, change them right, And
then at some point in the work they realize, Oh,
she's not doing that.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
That's my love about you though. You're so you're so
you have such great boundaries, so you're so empathetic, but
at the same time you have to very calmly say,
do you see that you're doing the thing that we've discussed,
you know, and that's that's really powerful and so hard
to find.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Yeah, if I was in a couple, I would be
trying to see you, as would everyone else. But let's say,
the biggest thing that I really wanted to hear your
perspective on in this particular episode and in the show,
and I think in life is the cheating situation. Right,
So we're at the part in season three for everyone listening,
I know, you know, but it is when Carrie has
(11:19):
cheated and not aiden with Big and she's kept it
a secret. And I love how our writers and director
Charles mcdougil, great director, use the kind of she's she's like,
I have the best boyfriend. She starts the show I
have the best boyfriend, and then she'll just have these
flashbacks of the sex with Big and how you know powerful,
isn't that She's like trying to put it out of
(11:40):
her mind. I didn't do that. I didn't do that.
I didn't tell anyone. No one knows, you know, obviously
other than Big. Right, she hasn't told any of the friends.
But she's riddled my guilt, you know, which is of
course the horrible problem when you have ever cheated is
that then you can't really be yourself.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
Well, there's a lot to say about that, please go ahead,
So much to say about that, but let's just first
talk about what you're saying about the guilt. The fact
that Carrie is feeling guilty is actually a sign of,
(12:19):
if you want to say, psychological health or integration. Because
what happens sometimes when people cheat is they can't actually
tolerate guilt. They can't really wrestle with the fact that
they're cheating might mean something to their actual partner, so
(12:40):
they keep it dissociated. Wow, So there are people that
cheat and it's as if it's happening on another like
on a separate universe. And they in their inner world,
they keep it separate, so they don't actually they don't
actually deal with what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, I don't know anything about that.
I'm not one of those people. I have cheated, but
I'm not one of those people. So what would make
someone be like that? Like what's their makeup or what's
happening that they do that?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
We can take a little detour here and talk about
like defense mechanisms there. You know, there are all sorts
of ways that we hide from ourselves that we don't
want to know certain things about ourselves or about reality.
Reality can be pretty overwhelming and humiliating and misunderstood, and
there are many reasons why we can't deal with everything.
(13:39):
So we employ all sorts of different defense mechanisms, and
people differ in like the type of defense they tend
to gravitate towards and how much it distorts reality. So
some people use like you know, what we'd call like
really primitive defenses, and they just deny things that are
actually right in front of them them, like people could
(14:01):
actually people could cheat and deny that it's happening. Wow,
really almost deny to themselves. Certainly deny to anyone else.
But then there's people who can dissociate. They can just
keep their worlds very separate, so they can have like
a a semi functional relationship with their partner and they're
(14:25):
on the side doing something else that's coming from a
different part of their personality that is not integrated. And
you know, when these things emerge, or when someone is
let's say, caught, or something happens and the two realities meet,
they can really have a breakdown because they've in their
own mind, they've kept it separate.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, So the fact that Carrie's actually able to feel
guilt and she struggles with it is good.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
That makes so much, so much sense. It's good, Yeah,
of course. And I think it's of course because I
mean you're you're talking about like a really deep seated compartmentalization,
right right, and that that that's interesting. I'm sure that
I've dated people like this, but I'm not one of them.
But but it's interesting to think about. I mean, I
(15:17):
I in the one hand, it seems like it would
be great, but then there is like in another way,
I'm wondering if you're talking about like is it almost
like your shadow, like the shadow part of you, like
the more in a Jungian world, you're that part is
living over here and you're not integrating the two.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I don't know, I don't I don't know if the
union idea of shadow would necessarily work here. Okay, yeah,
that that won't necessarily work, Okay, okay, But it's I
mean when people used dissociation, I mean sometimes it's sort
of I mean people, I mean, in extreme cases it
(15:58):
has to do with trauma. People associate from traumatic events
so that it doesn't take over their life, and then
they learn how to split certain experiences from their normal,
everyday life. But that that's in the case of trauma.
But on a mild and a milder version of it,
people compartmentalize. As you say, I mean, this is not everyone.
(16:18):
This is a particular line of defense that people use.
And then there's the question of like what I mean,
this is going back to the union idea, like where
is the cheating coming from and how much is it
related to the rest of life. Is the cheating kind
of an expression of one's shadow of something that is
(16:40):
not not coming into play in the main relationship. Is
it an attack on the relationship which certain cheating can be.
It's it's like a communication to one's partner unconsciously that
someone can be resentful angry. Is it like some kind
of reenactment of some past experience that I don't know,
(17:04):
Maybe they've seen their parents cheat on each other and
they're kind of reenacting that story to understand it in
some way. I mean, this cheating is like a really
complicated thing. It is not to mention that also putting
it in a cultural context, and in some relationships certain
(17:25):
kind of things are considered cheating, and in other relationships,
in a different context, it wouldn't be considered cheating, Right,
you're in an open relationship, or if I don't know,
you're an old school Mormon, or sure, sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So one thing I think that the fans like to
talk a lot about with this Aiden Big situation, which
does go on for many years. Right, these two men,
they're very different characters. She Carrie has incredible chemistry with both,
which is, you know, somewhat because of the actors playing
the characters having credible chemistry and are great actors. And
(18:13):
there are people who love Aiden and hate Big, and
people who hate Big and love Aiden, and blah blah blah,
you know, it's fascinating and it goes on and as
I'm rewatching, I am reminded of weird things about the
times that we were making the show. So late nineties,
so mister Big to me and I don't know, were
you in New York in the late nineties. Also, yeah,
(18:34):
it was a very much a known prototype of man,
very much then. Especially. I mean, he was based on
a real person who was in the publishing world, very
high up in the publishing world. But he also seems
kind of like those financial guys, not like a stock
market guy, but like the higher up. You know. He's
like aloof but also super successful. And I think it
(18:56):
was kind of a like a desirable thing for men,
any young ladies in New York. Not me personally. I
was more into theater dudes, you know, but he was.
He was very much known. And when I first went back,
like known to us, you know, when I first went
back and looked at the beginning of the show, I
was shocked by how withholding his is like like he
(19:22):
is so covered and she is like chasing and chasing
and trying to get him to talk, and it just
broke my heart for her. But at the time I
also know that those thoughts never crossed my mind. They
never entered my mind. Yeah, because I was just so
used to it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
It's just like the air, the air you.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Breathe exactly exactly. It didn't I would never have thought
those thoughts. Then I was just like, yeah, I love
mister Vegan turn and now when people talk about him
and then people are there's still some people who are
like mister big. Now, of course he does go on
for quite a long time, and he developed sen we
get to know him better and all of those things.
(20:03):
But then the other interesting thing because I was like
Aidan as well. Now I know both the actors, so
I'm not really objective, but when he comes, I don't
know if you remember this part. The very first time
they go out, she's smoking, she's smoking a lot, and
he says right away, you know, oh no, you know,
I can't date a smoker. And she's like, oh okay,
I'll just put them away, and she thinks she can
(20:25):
just casually not smoke, but then she starts really jonesing,
and it's a very kind of wonderful mirror of you know,
you meet someone, they're different, you love them, they might
not totally get you, but you're drawn to them. You know.
He's kind of the anti Big, But she's trying to
put a part of herself away so that she can
(20:46):
be with him. She's trying to pretend like I could
just quit smoking it's fine, but it's not that easy,
and it doesn't there's a part of him that doesn't
really seem to fully get her. Yeah, and that, to
me is also part of why she does end up
back with Big, even though he's Withholding. Yeah, but I
(21:06):
don't know if that's just me projecting.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well interesting, I mean, first of all, I'm interested in
like the way we're our idea of what a man
is has changed. Yes, Like the first thing you talked about,
like the fact that at the time it didn't even
(21:31):
occur to you to think of him as withholding. Yep,
that there there used to be some in a way,
There used to be some way that we as women
or as a culture didn't see the full complexity of
what a man is. Yeah, and how it sucks to
(21:51):
be a man. Yeah, they have to perform to that
kind of standard. And like it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yes, it's like he was trapped in like a box,
like a wall.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, and it's like it's supposed to be so great
to be a mister Big, but oh my god, that
I can imagine that being so stressful.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Yes, I agree to be that. Yeah, I agree fully. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
And then you're saying there's a in a way, like
a mirror image of that of like trying to be
the girl that Aiden wants. It's really you'd have to
think that. I mean, the optimistic way of thinking about
it is that as a society we are making some
progress towards like having like a wider range of how
(22:41):
we understand who we are as humans and the constraints
of gender. I'm just not sure that's actually happening, right.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
It seems like it's trying to happen.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
It's trying to happen, but there's yeah, there's a lot
of pushback on that.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
I agree, And I'm just gonna have to bring something
because it's just so on my mind. But I don't
know if you've seen Heated Rivalry, No, oh my god, doctor, Oh,
it's so exciting. You have to watch it. We will
not be derailed by my obsession with this show, but
it is, in my mind the thing that I love
about it is that it is also a relationship show
(23:20):
that is moving things forward in the conversation, and people
are being drawn to it in a very powerful way
because I think they are hungry for progress in terms
of men and intimacy and how we can see this
playing out in a way that we also relate to
and aren't judging like it's so powerful, it's shocking. It's
(23:42):
about hockey. Okay, So I didn't watch it for months
and now I can not stop talking about it. But
it reminds me of when our show came on in
terms of, you know, there was this whole negative reaction
which we expected very much of, like, you know, women
don't talk this way, and you know, how dare they?
And I remember this one article. I've mentioned it many times.
(24:04):
Sorry listeners, you've heard me, But there's an article in
Wall Street Journal a male critic saying, you know, I
wouldn't date any of these women except maybe the nice
brunette one. Do you mean that was supposed to be
like a compliment to me. I'm like, no, no, that guy,
like you know what I'm saying. I mean, it was
just so intense and we expected it, but the joy
(24:27):
came in the wider embrace of women and gay men,
basically saying, oh, thank god, you know, someone's opening the
door to let some air in some light.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yeah, it was very exciting at the time.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah it was, and it was exciting for us for sure.
And back to the expectations part, and we can just
bop around and I hope my listeners will come with us.
This is how I roll one time. And I think
it was right around the third season. This is when
the third season is when number one creatively. I feel
like everything started to really gel and these long storylines
started to pay off. And also, you know, more and
(25:05):
more people were able to watch because HBO used to be,
you know, very kind of niche. They said to us,
we want to put you on the cover of Time magazine,
and we're like, oh my god, amazing. So they took
a picture and then they put on the title is
Who Needs a Husband? And it hangs in my closet
still because I really love it. I still really love it, right,
(25:30):
I mean like it was kind of revolutionary then. And
then if you look at the numbers now in terms
of single women, women who are getting divorced and have
no interest in getting remarried, women who are self sufficient economically.
You know, it's so thrilling the openings that have happened.
And yes, there is a whole constricting sidebar, but I'd
(25:51):
like to ignore them right now, you know. I just
like to put them over there, because I do feel
like we want to progress. I feel like human beings
want to progress and have more freedom. Everyone should have
freedom to choose and be who they want to be
without judgment. That's how we're all going to be happier
and be kinder to each other and have a better
(26:12):
world than in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
And we also we still I mean there's still the
problem of having to live with each other.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Yes, yes, so we need.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
We need certain kind of regulation constraints on ourselves. I
mean there is still I mean, we're always going to
need socialization. Yes, you know, dogs socialize each other. We
we we're gonna need somewhere. But it would be nice
to have more breathing.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Group definitely, definitely, And I feel like that's the future.
I hope. It's just horribly bumpy right now, you know.
And that's the thing that I love about what we
do in our field is that, you know, we are
somewhat in a bubble. Sometimes people criticize that bubble and understand,
but also you know, you can create things and the
(26:57):
people who want to find it can find it.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, but I also think that I mean, for example,
this show, I mean, it's it's there's a certain kind
of social responsibility of a show like yours, because you're
you're you're putting out there the coordinates of how one
(27:20):
can think of relationships, yes, and and and people look
to that and and they measure themselves against that, you know,
they they they I mean, TV is like the most
powerful medium on earth now and it really tells people
(27:42):
like how how can I live? What's okay? Right? What
makes sense? And what's intelligible. It's it's it's an important medium.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
It really is. It really is, and it's important to
have choices within that. And that's what we have to
keep pushing forward on. We're not even gonna talk about
where our industry is right now. But you know, the
good people at HBO or fight in a good fight
and they will continue to do so, so we love
them for that. Let's go back to carry in the
(28:24):
cheating for a second. So I love because we're talking
to an expert. Okay, So We've got the situation where
we have Aiden and she would like to somehow be
the girl that Aiden wants or that Aiden is seeing
or projecting onto her right, but she's having internal struggles
to do that, and you know, probably for other reasons. Also,
(28:46):
she goes and cheats with Big. Now my question that
I have, and again this is all my stuff. I
feel like she and Big have what I would call
unfinished business right, like they didn't really work things out fully.
And that's a hard thing. Now I know that you
cannot really necessarily complete or whatever you would like to
(29:08):
call it, sometimes without help, like you need some person
like yourself or something to help you. But obviously Carrie
is not a therapy person. She goes to therapy for
one episode and ends up sleeping with a character there
who's played by John bon Jovi, and at the end
of that, yeah, you don't remember that. It's really funny.
It's really funny. She meets him in the waiting room
(29:31):
and of course he's Jump bon Jovi. He's very cute,
and they go on a day there's a lot of chemistry.
Then they have sex and they're laying in bed afterwards,
and she says, oh, you know, I never asked you
why are you? Why are you going to therapy? And
he goes, oh, I'm paraphrasing, but he goes, oh, I
have this issue. You know, I sleep with women and
then I never call them again.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Oh god, it's terrible.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
It's terrible.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I know.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
So she's like, well, I guess I just shouldn't go
to therapy. That's where she goes. That's her her solution
to that is that's her out, that's her out exactly.
I also had this other client, this client, not a client,
a guest on the podcast who said to me, Oh,
you know, I was watching from this perspective because one
of the things I love about the show is like,
at different times in your life, you'll see different things
(30:18):
in the characters based on your own experience. And she said,
when I was watching this time, I thought, what is
Carrie's trauma? And I said, you know, we're never gonna
we're never going to look at that. We don't use
that word in the show, but like, what do you
make of that? Like that word is used a lot. Now,
what do you think of that?
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Well, it's sometimes relevant, very relevant. I mean I have
people that come into my office and like in a
first session, I will already be asking that question because
it's very palpable in the room, that there's like haunting
of something. Yes, but it's certainly not relevant the way
it's used now in the population. I mean, people use
(31:01):
the term trauma so loosely and so freely it's disturbing.
I mean, the fact that people go through hardships, or
have difficult periods in their lives, or get particularly upset
by certain things that is not trauma. And the fact
(31:22):
that early experiences in life shape later in life doesn't
mean you've had trauma. In my world, in the therapeutic world,
the or trauma is used very you know, decipheringly, like you,
trauma is something that really exceeds your capacity to process.
(31:42):
It's something very abnormal that shatters something in you. It's
not just difficulty. And in that sense, I mean, honestly,
I don't think I've thought even once watching Sex and
the City about trauma within of the characters got it.
I agree, it seemed to me like pretty healthy, alive people.
(32:08):
It never occurred to me to ask that question. That's good.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
I agree with you totally. I agree with you, and
I think also just from a writing perspective. What we
were trying to do was not be trying to dig
back words, you know, because most people are just living
their lives and doing the best they can and struggling
with the things that they're struggling with that we're all
struggling with, which is really the point of the show,
you know. Yes, And I wouldn't. I don't look at
(32:33):
carry and think what's her trauma? Either? I mean, I think,
as you said, sometimes we are playing out something that
might be based on your childhood that you don't know
that you haven't unearthed. But that's not necessarily right, that's
not trauma, that's just let right, that's just.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Being a layered person who carries a history. And sometimes
the history is even before your parents. It could be
your grandparents. You know.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yes, trauma, right, that's important. I think that's important to say. Now.
Could we also just touch for a second on the
narcissist thing and how everyone online wants to call everyone
else a narcissist? What is going on?
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah? Well, again, similar to what I said about trauma,
In my professional world, we use the term narcissists for
only very particular situations and particular personality organizations. People can
be selfish, people can be annoying, they can be disappointing.
(33:35):
It doesn't make them narcissists. The fact that somebody is
not giving you what you want from them doesn't make
them a narcissist.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Good point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Be disappointing in many different ways and maybe a good
reason to turn away from them or not. But narcissism
is not necessarily what we're talking about, right. Narcissism in
professional terms has to do with a real kind of
fragility in sorry to use technical terms, but like the
(34:10):
ego structure, where there's the person has to gather up
a lot of resources to keep shoring up their sense
of self, which leaves them quite fragile and leaves them
with little that they can give outside of themselves because
they keep having to re pull together their very damaged,
(34:35):
yeah damage sense of self. It's a very particular personality
organization that is quite painful for the narcissists themselves. They
might need to put up a lot of bolstering and
show around them, but it's really based around something quite
a deep deficit. But there are other ways that people
(34:59):
use the term narcis that are just basically expressing their
frustration with the people around them, right.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
I think like they basically mean selfish. They perceive the
other persons being selfish, which is obviously not does not
equate to a full narcissistic person. Or there's also narcissistic
tendencies right, right, which we.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
All can have narcissistic tendencies. Anyone who's like looked at children,
I mean children start off with plenty of ego centrism
and narcissistic tendencies and attempts to build the ego, and
we can all revert back to that under certain conditions.
There are some people that under the best conditions are
(35:41):
like the most generous and open as they can be.
But you put them under conditions of stress or conditions
that threaten them, and they will become they will they're
narcissistic tendencies will show up, right, So that's not narcissist.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
Described narcissism to me one time as like the person
has had to create a house of cards for their identity,
and so it's a very fragile thing that's been built.
And then if one gets pulled out, like if an
event or a personal situation is like so stressful to
them as like one gets pulled out and the whole
thing falls, and then there can be very i don't
(36:24):
know what, like a defensive type behavior because they're trying
to protect the fragile. It helped me. I mean, there's
a lot of people in our industry who might be
having some narcissistic tendencies at least, so it was helpful
to think about it because it's very easy to just feel,
you know, upset about how that person might be acting. Right,
(36:45):
But then if you try to actually think about what's
happening inside them, you have a lot more empathy. Which
doesn't mean you don't have to protect yourself from it,
but you can at least have some empathy for what
is happening over there and maybe some understanding.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
I guess like that description a lot.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Well, thank you, thank you. It was a professional like
yourself who told me it was really helpful.
Speaker 2 (37:07):
Though.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
It was really helpful because sometimes you're just like why
why is this person acting like this? Like what what
what is happening? I'm just over here doing like normal
nice things and they're like upset with me. But somehow
you you're you're in a situation with them that has
pushed buttons or you know, threatened them in some way, or.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Can I can I ask you a couple of questions. Yes,
I have both a question about the episode that we
were focusing on, and I have a more general question okay,
but more specifically about the episode. How did you feel
about the whole preenup, the prenup and especially like the
(37:48):
allocation of extra funds for the boy?
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Oh my god, I mean I was so stressed by
the whole thing, and you know, it was It's interesting
because I'm not somebody who's ever focused on man. I
come from the South where everyone was like that, So
it really was, you know, playing Charlotte in general, who
wants these things so badly? And I certainly knew people
(38:11):
who felt that they needed to fulfill these expectations of
society and whatnot. It pushed a lot of buttons for me.
And sometimes I would just be like, oh god, you know,
and I would want to really like my own Christian
reaction would be much bigger, probably than Charlotte's. But because
Charlotte is Charlotte, you know, I had to really work
(38:33):
hard to filter my own, my own thoughts and feelings.
And when I watched back and Miranda. We're at that
scene where Miranda is reading the prenup, and I mean
Charlotte in general just doesn't even want a prenup because
to her, that's not romance, that's not love, you know,
which I fully fully get. Of course, if I ever
did get married, which I don't expect you, I would
(38:55):
definitely have a prenup. But you know, I get that
she's just like, you know, she doesn't want to live
in reality. She Charlotte is you know, she has created
an elaborate, beautiful world in her mind and I really
relate to that part, and she doesn't want to be
brought down to life. And part of the whole Tray relationship,
(39:17):
as it was presented to me before we filmed it
was that that this is what it was going to be.
On the one hand, it was going to look like
the shiny perfect goal and the reality was going to
be very, very different, and she was going to have
to try to find out who she was it within
those two things not matching, which I loved because that
(39:39):
is it's life, right.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Yeah, it's chapter two of my book.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Are Fantastic. I can't wait to read it.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I might use the character go for it, babe.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
So when we got to the prenup thing, I was
very scared about that whole episode. I was scared mostly
about when I have to say to Bunny, I'm worth
a million. Yeah, partly because it he's just so profoundly uncomfortable,
you know, to be not not that I didn't want
to try to stand up. I thought that it's great
(40:09):
that Charlotte's trying to stand up for herself, but also
it's just like embarrassing to be to be putting a
number on yourself, what the heck, you know. And I
remember at the time there were a few times in
this storyline, because it's really the more in depth storyline
so far that I've gotten right where there'd just be
a lot of the writers would just be like Jenny Biks,
who wrote this episode, would be like, you know, you
(40:31):
have to really like they were just very anxious about
what I was going to do. So I was trying
to find they want. They wanted me to like really
powerfully present myself to Bunny, but my feeling was I'm
still Charlotte, so you know, her version of powerful is
not going to be my version of powerful necessarily. And
(40:53):
also I'm much much younger at this point. I've never
been in any of these situations, and I just just
felt like it's it's uncomfortable, you know. And when I
watched it, I did like it better than I expected
because it's simple. I thought it was good that it
was simple. And also Frances Stern Haggen just such a
great actress who played Bunny and so present with me,
(41:16):
which is always so helpful. But when we looked at
the scene of Miranda reading the prenup, I was just
gagged that there's a price for boys and no, Also like,
what on earth, Like, I mean, tear that paper up?
You know, that's my feeling. I was shocked. I didn't
even really remember it, and I wish there was a
(41:36):
whole time too where they used to say to me
Charlotte wouldn't get angry, and I was like, you guys, what, Yeah,
like what is she doing with all these feelings? Then?
Like what is happening? And I remember towards the end
of the when the tray situation is not going well
and we're not having sex, which is of course horrible,
(41:58):
and you know, he doesn't really want to work on it,
which is all so horrible, And eventually I do kind
of get to start to get angry, thank god. But
I had said to them, you know, you guys, in
Charlotte's white apartment, there's going to be a closet, and
you're going to open the closet and there's going to
be little body parts of all the men that she's
chopped up and wrapped in cell a fane and put
in there. Because that's what would happen if she literally
(42:20):
is never angry, Like, yeah, right, that's insane. So but
I think also in the beginning, we had the kind
of archetypes of who the characters were supposed to be,
and over time we got to deepen and deepen and
you know, expand. But what did you think when you
when you saw that part.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Well, generally, I have I'm very fond of Charlotte's character.
I mean, I just think she's holding on to like
a certain kind of idealism or optimism that I you knows,
as a realist as I am, I have that in me.
It's very important for a couples therapist, for therapists generally
(43:01):
to have that. So so her sweetness and her idealism
always speak to me. But that part of it, I
was just like this is not too much too much.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Definitely agree, definitely and like the.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Like the it connected me to the way I feel
about like you know, like I had a friend years ago,
a woman who said to me, I would never go
to a female doctor. Oh, And I was like, how
is it that women have internalized this kind of self hating?
Like how what this bunny? Like what what do you
(43:44):
mean a prenup? The like values boys more like women
internalize this this exploitation Like yes, I don't know, it's
it's maddening.
Speaker 1 (43:57):
I mean, that's another whole book. Yeah, we have so
much evidence in the world of this deep internalization of
the patriarchy. It's really mind boggling. And it goes on
and on. But also I have a fourteen year old daughter,
and it's interesting, you know, she's really at the age
(44:17):
where I struggle with how much to tell her about
the world, you know, and how deep to go. No
one really talked to me when I was that age
about these things. But I do feel like my eyes
have really been opened by life. You know, I'm sixty,
so I've obviously seen a lot, been through a lot,
and you know, with things going on now, you know,
(44:39):
such as the Epstein files like, it's huge. It purred
me so much of our daily lives.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
It's everywhere, all the time.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
Exactly, And so I do feel I've started to without
I try not to scare her. I don't want her
to be riddled with fear, but at the same time,
I I feel like I need to say to her,
you know, there's this situation in life, ye unfortunately that
you need.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
To be aware of but and fight not be afraid.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Absolutely, yes, yeah, absolutely, but like for her because I
should probably not say all this, but you know, sometimes
she wants to do things, you know how she's fourteen.
She wants to go out with her friends and do
things or whatever. And I'm like, no, you can't go there.
I'm sorry, I have to go with you. And she's like, no, mom,
no one else's mom comes And I said, well, maybe
I'll stay a little distance and just watch, you know.
(45:31):
I mean, like, I just have anxiety about her out
in the world alone with her friends, because I don't
feel at fourteen that they really know all of the
things that could happen. They don't, right, thank you. I
need you to call her and tell her, because she
says to me, she says to me, Mom, I would
know if someone had bad intentions. I'm like, baby, no, no,
(45:53):
so cute that you think that. And then she's like,
I would just punch them, and like that is adorable.
But it's so much more complicated, you know. But it's
like the it's such a conundrum about like safety versus
knowledge versus feeling powerful. You want them to feel powerful
within it, not that it's like overwhelming and going to
(46:15):
get them. But on the other hand, it does permeate everything.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
It does. I don't think we can I don't think
as parents we can like deal with a safety issue
other than you know, like you're saying, like be there
and watch. But safety is something that's mostly out of
our hands. But what we can do is like help
(46:39):
our kids understand what are the ideological forces that are
right in front of them, like patriarchy, like the way
masculinity is defined absolutely, you know, women internalizing patriarchy. It's
(46:59):
those are the two that I think as parents, it's
really important to kind of keep giving our kids.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Great good I'm doing that. I'll keep doing that. That's good.
That's good. So wait, what else were you going to
ask me? You said, questions?
Speaker 2 (47:22):
I was going to ask you more in general about
the gap between you and the character. How does that?
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It's funny because now it's been twenty eight years that
i've been playing a right not the whole time. We've
had breaks, obviously, but people are always asking me like,
where's the difference, And when we started, people would ask
me that, and I get to have a very specific
list of like this is Charlotte characteristics, these are Christian characteristics.
But after all this time, it's really hard to do.
But I don't feel I feel like she's part of me,
(47:55):
but she's not me, you know what I'm saying. But
she is me because she's not someone else. You know
what I'm saying. It's weird. It's a weird thing. But
I love her. I love her desperately. You know.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
She's very lovable, she really is.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
And she's lovable because she really tries hard, you know,
and she is willing to change. Like her the whole
idea of the Tray situation was that she was going
to be pursuing this goal. No matter what she was
going to get it. It wasn't going to be what
she thought. It was going to look great on the outside,
not be great on the inside, and she was going
(48:30):
to have to deal with that, like what does that
really mean to her? How important is it to actually
have the true love she talks about? Right? Yea, and
thank god she she It was not easy, right. And
also the first idea was that Kyle would only come
in as Tray for like five episodes. It would all
happen very quickly, but that he would be very dull.
He was supposed to be very boring, like that kind
(48:51):
of couple where like no one wants to talk to
the other person, like the friends are like, who's going
to talk to the husband? You know, like that. But
he was played by Kyle, so he wasn't very boring.
He was fantastic and all of us were just collectively
in love with him, right, So he stayed and it
became more complex as a result of us loving him
(49:12):
so much and what he brought to the character and
how kind of you know, off he made it just
slightly offbeat and interesting in terms of you didn't know
what was happening over there. Yeah. So then he stayed longer,
which I thought was good, and we got to kind
of I haven't rewatched all, but we got to kind
of go deeper into you know, what are the issues
(49:33):
with the intimacy? What's that about? And then she tries
to hall MD to therapy, but he doesn't really want
to participate, which is really heartbreaking. You know, when you
have the things that you think are going to be
amazing for your entire future. Like Charlotte is loyal. You know,
she's going to try her best, and I love that
about her. But then when it falls apart and Harry
(49:54):
shows up as her divorce lawyer, who looks nothing like
anything she would ever have thought of, but in fact
truly inside who she needs and wants, and she makes
it work and she pivots, you know, she changes. Love that, Yeah,
love that. I love him And we just saw him
last night. We gave Sara Jesska an award, which was
so wonderful, and Evan came and you know, I just
(50:17):
he was on the press line with me. And I
take Evan for granted so much because I've had him
so long, but like just hearing his voice just gives
me so much comfort, Like just working together over time,
you know, in the way that we've been able to
all of our people. I feel that way about But
you know, he's really been with me for a long time.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
Like it's kind of amazing.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
But I love that about Charlotte. I love that Charlotte,
you know, like also with her children. She has these children,
she thinks they're going to be a certain way. Of
course they're not. She has to pivot again, you know.
I love the ability, even though she doesn't appear on
the outside, like she's the person who's going to be
able to do that, the insights, she's going to do
the work to try to get there. I love that
(50:59):
about her. Yeah, but it is sometimes hard to separate.
For sure.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
She has she changed you.
Speaker 1 (51:08):
I mean I think so. You know, that's that's a hard,
hard thing. It's hard to say because obviously the experience
of doing the show has changed me. It's changed all
of our lives so much. Sure, and we love each
other so much, and we've been through this just insane experience,
you know, for twenty eight years. I mean, we've filmed
a film in Morocco, like we you know, we've traveled
(51:31):
the world. It's just been unbelievable. Plus we've spent eighteen
hours a day together for years. Right, So it's a
very unusual and deep and intimate relationship with the actual
people behind the camera and on camera. That's hard to
separate characters. Yeah, yeah, the characters. We've all been with
(51:54):
our characters forever, and we've all been in these scenes together, right,
so like yeah, just as an actor knowing the other
actors so well, yeah, it is. It's just so unique
and amazing and I'm so grateful. I cannot I could
never have dreamt of this, you know, as an actor,
(52:16):
you're just trying to find any job, you know, for
two months or whatever. But it's just been a bounty
of joy and depth, and you know, we've been through
it all together really, so it's been incredible and I
can't really at this point kind of separate them out
really yeah. Yeah, but in a good way, you know,
(52:36):
in a good way. Okay, wait, let's talk about cheating again,
because I do feel like people are just fascinated by
this and talk about I feel like, in the world
cheating and or just sexuality chemistry, like it's so confusing
to think about, Like, Okay, so Big and Carrie have
this chemistry, right, And she says at one point, like
(52:58):
why does something so oh bad feels so good? And
Samantha says, well, it's created that way. Like as a therapist, Well,
how would you advise clients about such things?
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Are you asking me? What do I advise clients about cheating?
Speaker 1 (53:15):
Yeah? Or just a chemistry part or you know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (53:18):
Like, I know that's hard to diplomatically avoid that question.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
Okay, fair enough, fair enough, I guess it's hard to know,
Like I mean for myself as a single person, right,
And there's all these people who talk about Like I'm
this one friend who said to me, like, you need
to go out and be bored on a date. And
I was like, but why come on, I'd rather be
home with my kids. I don't want to go be
bored on a date, you know. But she's like, you
need to do something different. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I
(53:44):
get it.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
I get it.
Speaker 1 (53:45):
And not that I want to dissect my own self
necessarily though obviously partly I do, or I wouldn't bring
that up. But okay, so, like it's it's hard for
me to want to do that, Like, if there's not chemistry,
I don't see the fucking point. Is that just me
(54:07):
being like not grown up? No?
Speaker 2 (54:10):
I look, there are many there are many channels that
make us want to connect to other people to attach, right,
And it depends on what what's the primary need you're
operating from. I mean, do you are you? I mean
it sounds like you're saying what you're looking for is
(54:31):
something interesting?
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yes, so.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Great, that's what you need right now, because probably you
have a lot of the other things already dealt with
in your life. I do, And that's the thing that
you're looking for. I mean, someone else might be seeking security, right.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
See. I never understood that stability, right, I never understood
that either that people would need that, that you would
look to a man for that. I don't. I don't
feel I don't that doesn't.
Speaker 2 (55:02):
Forget about man, not man. But you can imagine that
certain people, let's say, I mean it doesn't have to
be related to this, but let's say they've had a
very unstable early life, and what they really in their
heart of hearts or in their bones, what they're missing
is some sense of like predictability, it's to even start
(55:26):
going on being right, So for them, you know what
they're looking for. More, what's more important is that is
some sense of stability of companionship, you know, the non interest, right,
I mean, think of it as masslows hierarchy of needs.
I don't know what's more important. It really depends on
(55:47):
what are the deficits you're coming with or where you
are in your life, right, right, and different reasons to
attach to a person and right.
Speaker 1 (55:57):
I was always looking for adventure, travel, intimacy, excitement, like
things that are not like marriage e type things journy
mean or at least whatever the cliche is, I guess,
but my thing now is that. So then I found
myself thinking, oh my gosh, I think I want to
(56:19):
have children. So I adopted two children. Now I'm, you know,
very much in mommy mode when I'm not working, because
it's kind of a lot, right, Like, yeah, you know,
it's a lot, And it's also you know, a very
different kind of intimacy obviously, but like it's very intimate
to raise.
Speaker 2 (56:34):
Children, extremely intimate. Right.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
So it in some ways I feel like it uses
that muscle or whatnot.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
I don't know how to put it, but supplies that need.
Speaker 1 (56:47):
Yeah, it does, it really does. So I don't really
I don't really feel like, oh my gosh, I'm missing
so much. But then I also feel and I'd love
to know your thoughts on this. I also feel like
there is a part of me that is not kind
of being challenged and or growing because I'm not in
(57:07):
an intimate relationship yep. And I don't know. I don't
know how to make that happen so that, but I
do feel I do feel like there. I feel in
a way like I'm chickening out. Do you know I
do I.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I mean, obviously I don't know you enough personally to
really say something. But I think one of the things
that an intimate relationship pulls for or makes us grow
is going back to the idea of selfishness, is the
idea of like it asks you to move outside of yourself,
(57:51):
and children do that, Yes, children do that more than anything. Yes,
Like You're constantly having to prioritize some other sense of subjectivity.
You have to try to imagine what it's like for
someone else, you have to deprioritize your own needs. It's
it's a it's and that's a huge important lesson. We
grow from that. It's it's everything that will take us
(58:16):
out of ourselves. So in that sense, you're you're you're
probably doing plenty in that realm.
Speaker 1 (58:24):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
I mean, the other thing that I think romantic relationships
do is it has something to do with the realm
of like it's a different it's different intimacy when it's
like peer to peer intimacy, when it's not like a
parent child or or the other way around, taking care
of an elderly parent, it's it's peer to peer. And
(58:49):
then obviously the dimension of sexuality over time, which is
a whole other complex world. Sexuality over time, I'm not
just the thrill of like new new, but the thrill
of not the thrill, the getting to know someone on
that level over time. That's it's whole another world. Not
(59:14):
everyone is good at not everyone.
Speaker 1 (59:15):
Wants right, right. I mean, I was in a really
long relationship where I do feel like that happened and
was really great. But then there were other outside world
things that got in the way, which I'm sure also
had to do with my choosing. You know, I have
like whatever, because I wasn't choosing for safety and security
(59:35):
right and I didn't really think I was choosing for
life necessarily either. But I did stay for a very
long time. But one thing that I do think of
which I wouldn't say, except that I really love you
and I trust you, I feel like one of the
messages that I got somehow in my early childhood was
that it's hard to hold onto myself in a relationship,
like I lose myself. And there was a time when
(59:59):
I did this to try to have children on my own.
I was around forty something when I started thinking about it.
I kind of felt like, well, I'm kind of just
caretaking and not parenting, but like caretaking these men, I
should just raise some children, you know. But yeah, I
don't know how to necessarily do both, because I don't
(01:00:22):
think I could. I don't know if I could, I
should say, don't know yet. And I haven't tried really
lately to really keep myself because now that I have
the children, the children really need me. I can't give
myself up to a relationship. And I don't know how
to reconcile that in my mind. Obviously, if I've met
the right person, maybe, but you kind of have to
work to meet the right people. Yeah, and I'm definitely
(01:00:43):
not doing it, meaning go and meet them, yes, like
actually like leave the house. You know what I'm saying, right,
Because people have wanted to put me on the apps,
you know. Sarah Jeska at one point threatened to make
them profile for me, and I was like, unless you
are available to come on every one of those dates
with me, right, please don't do it, because I I
(01:01:04):
just don't know if I have the band with I
just it's I don't I don't know how to balance it,
I guess, you know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
But kind of going back to the one of the
first things you started talking about, and do you have to?
Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
No, I do not have to. I've got to take
my sweater off. I do not have to. And that's
the thing too, is like, like Sir Jessica said to
me last night when we were at this thing, She
was like, I need an update, and I said, I don't.
I don't. I don't have an update, And I always
feel terrible, like she wants me to be happy. She
means the best, of course, right, but I just I
(01:01:44):
just don't know what how to. It doesn't seem to
be a priority. You know, there's sometimes when I think
about it, I think life is short, Like what the
fuck am I doing?
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
You're raising kids?
Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Okay, profession okay, okay, good, good, okay, good, But you
know that it's like that societal pressure of like people
don't quite know what to make of it. When you're
just like, yes, I'm single, Yes I've been single kind
of a long time, you know, like they're just like, oh,
something must be horribly wrong with her, like it's an
interesting thing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Yeah, I'm I'm not into that whole hegemony.
Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Yes, it's so true. It's so true. It's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Also, look around us. I mean, people are now choosing
all sorts of ways to live that are not only
like you know, the heterosexual couple right love it all
these other ways that people live now.
Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
It's definitely definitely. Also there's this great article. I don't
know how much of this kind of stuff you see,
but this woman in England wrote this article about how
it's embarrassing to have a boyfriend. Oh no, yeah, it
went just blew up because it was basically saying, you
know how people present on social media and it looks
(01:03:01):
so glossy and amazing and blah blah blah. And it
used to be like the flex was to have your
hot man there on vacation with you wherever, and then
after a while it seemed like that was like you're
just giving your power away, you know, like like why
like why does this amazing woman need to have a
man like like that's boring, you know, it's just really
(01:03:25):
fascinating and I love to watch just the reactions to
all to all the things like this and the changes.
And of course, as you said, it's it's not a
global situation where we're all changing, obviously, but there's inroads
I feel like, and I love to see them. It
makes me excited, you know. But yeah, that's one of
the things I love about your show too, is you
(01:03:46):
have so many different couples with so many different backgrounds
and expectations and kind of paving their own road forward,
and you're helping them do that and also understanding the
outside societal issues that they're also come bumping up against, right, Yeah,
I mean constant, absolutely constant. I mean I just try
(01:04:09):
never to discuss my dating life with anybody, necessarily in person,
so that they don't ask me twenty million questions that
I can't answer, do you know what I mean? Like
what like why are you single? You know, and I'm
just like, oh god, it's a story, okay, you.
Speaker 2 (01:04:24):
Know, No, this is not a legitimate question why are
you single? It's like asking someone why are you gay?
Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Good? Good?
Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Why are you great?
Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
That's good? That's what I'm gonna say. That's what I'm
gonna say next time. I'm gonna say doctor Orne says this.
I love it. But I mean, really, what we're talking
about too, is just you have to create the freedom
to be yourself in that moment. Yeah, and that might
not be forever, but it is my moment right now.
It's not a priority.
Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
I do sometimes beat myself up about it, but it's
just not actually a priority.
Speaker 2 (01:04:59):
You know. Well, I approve, thank you, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Oh you know what, I have such an interesting question
to ask you. I have no idea what you're going
to say, because I only know you as your doctor
self from watching your show. But I ask everyone who
comes on the show this, are you a Charlotte doctor Orna?
Speaker 2 (01:05:20):
Oh, that's the title of the It is generally no, Okay,
Other than what I said earlier, this like the magic
dust of idealism. Yeah, I definitely have that.
Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
I love.
Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
Yeah, you would need that in your job for sure.
For sure, because you also need to give it. You
need to have a present in the room because people
are just going through so much when they come to you. Yeah,
and I do think that's the most bestest part of Charlotte. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I love it. Would you say if you had to
(01:05:58):
be placing yourself with another I think the obvious choice
for you would be a Miranda who's like super intellect
and straight talking. At least that's how I think of her.
Speaker 2 (01:06:11):
I don't know, Yeah, I think. I mean, on some
I think i'd say that I identify with each of
the characters.
Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
Amazing. Yeah, that's great, that's what we want, that's what
we want. That's a great answer. That's a great answer.
I don't know if we talked about the show enough,
but I love everything we talked about. I love everything
we talked about because I wanted the bigger picture and
I wanted your professional opinion on some of it, because
(01:06:40):
I do feel like, on the one hand, is I
don't I don't think it's a bad thing that people
want to kind of try to analyze stuff online or whatever,
even though obviously they're not all doctors, because I do
feel like people are searching, right They're searching for what
is the truth of this what is the you know,
what should I do in this relationship? What is the
(01:07:00):
truth of our society?
Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
You know?
Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
All of those things, and they don't they don't necessarily
know what to say, you know, so like they grab
onto kind of easy answers or whatever. But also I
do know, just from a therapeutic standpoint that of course
you have a you know, much higher standard of how
you would use those terms that I think are It's
important to hear that, yeah, and be reminded of it.
Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
Even though I think people air a lot in the
overuse of terms like narcissism and trauma, I'm also glad
that people are interested in these kind of psychological ways
of like parsing out the world.
Speaker 1 (01:07:38):
Absolutely, it's good. Absolutely, Absolutely, it's a beginning, right, like
maybe they'll search more.
Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Yeah, we just need to get more refined and responsible
with how we use the terms.
Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Definitely, definitely. Well, let me let you go to your patient,
and we really appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (01:07:55):
Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm a big, big fan. I
can't wait to see more shows. Gay bye, great day.
Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
Bye,
Host
Kristin Davis
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