There’s a belief that changes to holiday laws will benefit employers.
The Government's drafting legislation to change the Holidays Act 2003.
It'll include proposals to pro-rata sick leave and move annual leave from an entitlement system to one using accrual.
Employers and Manufacturers' Association's Alan McDonald told Mike Hosking that an accrual system is favoured because a single calculation is needed.
He says employees will know what they're getting from day one, while employers just have to do the calculation and get it right.
But Unite Union Assistant Secretary Gerard Hehir says that the changes will affect many Kiwis.
He says over 40% of employees work part time.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Back to the reform that was announced yesterday. We've done
the early childhood. Now let's get onto the work rules.
Our Holidays Act is getting a once over, a couple
of big changes coming pro rate a sickly been switching
from an entitlement system to an accrual system. An annual
leave draft bill is going to be up for consultation
in September. Ellen McDonald of the Employers Manufacturer's Association with
us along with Jared Hare, who is with the Labor Workers' Union. Gentlemen,
(00:23):
very good morning to you. Good morning Allen. Overdue and
can it be tidied up? And tidied up?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, well, we live in hope, Mike. It's been successive
governments that have promised to have a crack at this,
and successive governments haven't got there. So we're really looking
forward to making it a much simpler system, easier for employers.
Means also that employees get paid, which is very important
because a lot of them are still waiting on back pay.
(00:49):
And let's crack on with it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Is sick or annual the problem or both?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's both and from our point of view anyways, So
first of all, with the holiday pay, the existing Act
is hugely complex. There are some massive provisions for back pay,
particularly in government departments, but also amongst employers. So I
think you're looking two point two billion for the health sector,
one point two et cetera for education and so on
(01:17):
and so on.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, can it be tidied up in your view? Because
having had a crack, no one's got there. Why is
there some miracle required or with just a bit of attitude.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, there's a bit of a holy grail in this
and that's the single calculation to do holiday pay. And
that's why we favor the cruel system. So if your
work ex you get why. It's simple straightforward. Employees know
what they're getting, they get it from day one instead
of having to wait twelve months, and employers can simply
do the calculation and get it right now.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Jared, where are you at in terms of is it
a mess and doesn't need changing? And if it does
need changing, what would you do?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, there does need to be some tweeting, but let's
be clear. The sickly changes are simply a reduction in
entitlement and they're going to affect I mean, it's just
going to be transferred from workers to employers, and that's
going to affect you know a lot of people forty
(02:18):
percent over forty percent of workers actually work part time.
If you take part time with less than forty hours,
we don't know what the calculation. That's the problem. That's
why it is complex sometimes because people don't work nine
to five forty hours a week anymore. Overall, picture's working
lines are complicated. That's why the rules have to be
(02:38):
complicated as well. Women will be absolutely affected. Fifty eight
percent of woman work less than forty hours, so you
know this is going to have a huge impact and
on the sickly. Sixty percent of the workers who work
part time work in four areas retail, hospitality, education, and healthcare.
(03:01):
Now those are the four areas where you get more
likely to catch something you get at work. There's a
good reason and woman. The reason why way woman is
because they are still in the twenty first centrally unfortunately
more likely to end up having to take sickly to
look after the strong women.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So it's part of the ideological because I think it
was your example, al and the person who works a
day a week that's forty eight days a year and
they get ten days sickly. That's heavy. So ideologically, the
union would argue, that's fair enough, that's life. You guys
would argue, no, it's not.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well if you go back to when the ten days
sick leave for part time workers came in, we're posted
at the time for this reason, if you work ten
twenty hours, you get the same amount of sick pay
as somebody who works forty hours a week. Now, if
you look at that from the flip side of that,
that means the person or the people working forty hours
a week and then carrying the burden of those people
(03:53):
that are off. And I'm not sure where it gets
a transfer from. You know, you accrue the leaves as
you go along, so we're not saying take away to sickly.
It's just a proturate to the hours that you work.
So and also you're coming from the point of view
that employers are trying to exploit these part time people,
take advantage of them, or however you want to look
at it, have a conversation with your employer. They're reasonable people,
(04:14):
they like keeping their start.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Indeed, the consultation side of it, though, Jared, when it
comes out in September, is the consultation from your point
of view, or the government's worked out what they want
to do and they'll do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Well, they seem to be pretty clear. The devil is
always be in the detail. It says what's thickly, what's
to find this part time on the leave, But in
terms of the end you'll leave, it's pretty clear they
go to any crual system. And actually we know what
that looks like because my union other unions been fighting
for eight years now to get the billions owed by
(04:46):
workers who are who weren't paid properly. And let me
give the example of what moving to it a cruel
system will be, because oh it's about simplicity, but it's
complex for a very good reason to make sure workers
get leave that they need. So if I start the
year working twenty hours, and then in January and I
(05:09):
move up to a forty hour job, I work hard
and I get some more hours. That's great, regular hours
to forty in June. And then it comes to December
and I go, I say, what a week's leave. Okay, Well,
under the current law, I get forty hours because I'm
working forty hours, and I go, I leave and at
the same pay under the cruel system. I get thirty
(05:29):
hours because you do twenty thirty hours. Yes, exactly, I
actually move twenty five percent. Okay, that's what a cruel
system means.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, no, I understand what a cruel is. I get it.
All right. Well, let's wait until September and see what
they come up with and see where we go. So
sick and annual leaves needlessly complex? Am I just sitting
here thinking this is needlessly complex? Or does that just me?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on ihardbred Yo
Back to the reform that was announced yesterday. We've done
the early childhood. Now let's get onto the work rules.
Our Holidays Act is getting a once over, a couple
of big changes coming pro rate a sickly been switching
from an entitlement system to an accrual system. An annual
leave draft bill is going to be up for consultation
in September. Ellen McDonald of the Employers Manufacturer's Association with
us along with Jared Hare, who is with the Labor Workers' Union. Gentlemen,
(00:23):
very good morning to you. Good morning Allen. Overdue and
can it be tidied up? And tidied up?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Well, well, we live in hope, Mike. It's been successive
governments that have promised to have a crack at this,
and successive governments haven't got there. So we're really looking
forward to making it a much simpler system, easier for employers.
Means also that employees get paid, which is very important
because a lot of them are still waiting on back pay.
(00:49):
And let's crack on with it.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Is sick or annual the problem or both?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
It's both and from our point of view anyways, So
first of all, with the holiday pay, the existing Act
is hugely complex. There are some massive provisions for back pay,
particularly in government departments, but also amongst employers. So I
think you're looking two point two billion for the health sector,
one point two et cetera for education and so on
(01:17):
and so on.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, can it be tidied up in your view? Because
having had a crack, no one's got there. Why is
there some miracle required or with just a bit of attitude.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Well, there's a bit of a holy grail in this
and that's the single calculation to do holiday pay. And
that's why we favor the cruel system. So if your
work ex you get why. It's simple straightforward. Employees know
what they're getting, they get it from day one instead
of having to wait twelve months, and employers can simply
do the calculation and get it right now.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Jared, where are you at in terms of is it
a mess and doesn't need changing? And if it does
need changing, what would you do?
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Well, there does need to be some tweeting, but let's
be clear. The sickly changes are simply a reduction in
entitlement and they're going to affect I mean, it's just
going to be transferred from workers to employers, and that's
going to affect you know a lot of people forty
(02:18):
percent over forty percent of workers actually work part time.
If you take part time with less than forty hours,
we don't know what the calculation. That's the problem. That's
why it is complex sometimes because people don't work nine
to five forty hours a week anymore. Overall, picture's working
lines are complicated. That's why the rules have to be
(02:38):
complicated as well. Women will be absolutely affected. Fifty eight
percent of woman work less than forty hours, so you
know this is going to have a huge impact and
on the sickly. Sixty percent of the workers who work
part time work in four areas retail, hospitality, education, and healthcare.
(03:01):
Now those are the four areas where you get more
likely to catch something you get at work. There's a
good reason and woman. The reason why way woman is
because they are still in the twenty first centrally unfortunately
more likely to end up having to take sickly to
look after the strong women.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
So it's part of the ideological because I think it
was your example, al and the person who works a
day a week that's forty eight days a year and
they get ten days sickly. That's heavy. So ideologically, the
union would argue, that's fair enough, that's life. You guys
would argue, no, it's not.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well if you go back to when the ten days
sick leave for part time workers came in, we're posted
at the time for this reason, if you work ten
twenty hours, you get the same amount of sick pay
as somebody who works forty hours a week. Now, if
you look at that from the flip side of that,
that means the person or the people working forty hours
a week and then carrying the burden of those people
(03:53):
that are off. And I'm not sure where it gets
a transfer from. You know, you accrue the leaves as
you go along, so we're not saying take away to sickly.
It's just a proturate to the hours that you work.
So and also you're coming from the point of view
that employers are trying to exploit these part time people,
take advantage of them, or however you want to look
at it, have a conversation with your employer. They're reasonable people,
(04:14):
they like keeping their start.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Indeed, the consultation side of it, though, Jared, when it
comes out in September, is the consultation from your point
of view, or the government's worked out what they want
to do and they'll do it anyway.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Well, they seem to be pretty clear. The devil is
always be in the detail. It says what's thickly, what's
to find this part time on the leave, But in
terms of the end you'll leave, it's pretty clear they
go to any crual system. And actually we know what
that looks like because my union other unions been fighting
for eight years now to get the billions owed by
(04:46):
workers who are who weren't paid properly. And let me
give the example of what moving to it a cruel
system will be, because oh it's about simplicity, but it's
complex for a very good reason to make sure workers
get leave that they need. So if I start the
year working twenty hours, and then in January and I
(05:09):
move up to a forty hour job, I work hard
and I get some more hours. That's great, regular hours
to forty in June. And then it comes to December
and I go, I say, what a week's leave. Okay, Well,
under the current law, I get forty hours because I'm
working forty hours, and I go, I leave and at
the same pay under the cruel system. I get thirty
(05:29):
hours because you do twenty thirty hours. Yes, exactly, I
actually move twenty five percent. Okay, that's what a cruel
system means.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yeah, no, I understand what a cruel is. I get it.
All right. Well, let's wait until September and see what
they come up with and see where we go. So
sick and annual leaves needlessly complex? Am I just sitting
here thinking this is needlessly complex? Or does that just me?
Speaker 2 (05:52):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on ihardbred Yo
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