The Prime Minister says he wants to ensure there's trust and confidence in public institutions.
Christopher Luxon's announced the Public Service Commission will investigate allegations of data misuse by Te Pāti Māori at Manurewa Marae.
The Privacy Commissioner, Electoral Commission, Police, and Stats NZ are already investigating.
Luxon told Mike Hosking that it's about having an all of Government response.
He says he wants to know if the agencies did the right thing in managing conflicts and the data appropriately.
Chinese Premier Li Qiang is visiting New Zealand this week, and the Prime Minister says he’ll agree to disagree during meetings.
He says that New Zealand and China cooperate where we can, particularly on trade.
But, he says, we'll never see eye-to-eye on every issue.
Luxon says New Zealand and China have different political systems, cultures, and histories, and therefore have differences of opinion.
But he says we also have differences with all other countries as well.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Time for the Prime Minister this Tuesday morning. Good to
see you. The Maori investigation, Mary Party investigation, the Public
Service Commission, who runs it and when are we getting
those details?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Yeah, so that'll be confirmed this week. The terms of reference,
who's the reviewer and actually the timing around that. Just
taking a step back, what we're trying to do is
make sure there's trust and confidence in the public institutions.
I want to make sure that we've actually got an
all of government sort of response to did the agencies
do the right thing managing conflicts? Making sure they manage
the data appropriately? And there's a bunch of independent agency
(00:30):
reviews going on, but I don't think it's appropriate that
agencies do their own sort of review for themselves. So
that's why I want to So.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
The ones that have started by the police, are they
wasting their time or not?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That's important that have a very narrow scope about what
they did or didn't do, but that all needs to
be fed into and interrogated by the Public Service Cool.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So are you looking at government departments and what they
did or didn't do, or are you looking at the
Maori Party and what they did or did So.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
The police and the Privacy Commissioner, they have compelling powers
and they'll be able to look at the third party
actors in this case to party MARII us.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Right, all of that stuff yesterday's got nothing to do
with the Malory Party.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Correct, It's got to really look at the government agency
response and its interaction with those agents, with those parties,
particularly did they follow the right process on data management,
conflicts of interest, those sorts of things.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Although you're never going to find anything out because if
I go along to the Mariah and I'm filling in
a sensus and they say, hey, there's your number, and
I'm going to take that over there and then we'll
ring you later on and send you a few texts
and you can vote for the Mallory Party, your investigation
doesn't get anywhere near that does now.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
But what I'd say is the police investigation will and
the Privacy Commissioner investigation will because they have compelling powers,
coercive powers to be able to look at all of
that stuff, which they've already got investigations up and running
and doing it. What I'm making sure is that actually
New Zealanders know that there is trust and confidence in
their institutions. And then the agencies in particular, I don't
want them essentially marking their own homework. I want to
(01:52):
make sure that actually they've acted appropriately managing potential conflicts interest,
because the alligations are pretty serious. If they end up
in a place where data roams from one organization through
to another organization because someone's wearing multiple hats that stuff,
I want to know how has that been managed?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Is that part the serious part? Or is it the
serious part the Mailory party who allegedly took information they
weren't entitled to and used it in a way that's
against the law.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, well that's the serious That's why these allegations are
incredibly serious, and that's why they need to be properly investigated.
And the police and the Privacy Commissioner have those powers
to do that part of it. And then I want
to make sure, rather than having a series of individual
agencies investigations which are important, but actually that there's a
whole of government response that we understand what government. You know,
I want to be reassured that government actually reconcreated wealth.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Does the Privacy Commissioner have the power to subpoena people?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Because yeses I understand it. They and the police do.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Because that's the only way you're going to get to
the bottom of it.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Those compelling powers, and that's why they've got those powers
and don't. I can't run an investigation that runs over
the top of all of that, and that's why when
I looked at all the options set that I had
in front of me, I decided that that was the
best way to go. And you know, they'll get an
independent reviewer and they'll be to get the terms of
reference and actually engage with all those agencies and make
sure that we've got that they've done everything right, because.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
You seem to me to have rules and you have laws.
So the rules, for example, is should a Maria whose
candidate is the CEO then turn out to be a
polling booth? Yep, Well, those that's your inquiry, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, that's a responsibility of the Electoral Commission, which will
actually be you know, the my inquiry will look at
all the government agencies and Crown indies if we have
to as well, and their response.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But then you go to the government that sets the
precedent by handing out lollies and warriors tickets to fill
in forms and that's part of it as well, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, Well, that's the point I'm trying to get to
is like, well, you know, have have the government agencies
behaved appropriately and.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well what's appropriate? Who decides?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, Well, that's what I want the independent reviewer to
look at. So for example, there are real rules around
you know, when you pass you know, third party information
off or data off into different organizations, whether you're outsourcing
that to other community organizations to do a bunch of
work or not. I want to make sure that's all
really tight, and I want to make sure conflicts are managed. Now,
that's the other piece in this as well, is to
make sure that conflicts of interest are properly, properly managed.
(04:10):
You can't have you know, data flowing through a series
of organizations while someone's wearing multiple hats.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I mean, but it was there for everyone to see.
I mean, the CEO is the candidate who runs the marah,
which is the polling booth, which is the center for
the census, which is the center of the COVID vaccine,
and the warriors tickets are being handed out and we
might be swapping numbers and texting people cluster.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, well that's why I'm saying the allegations are very serious.
New Zealand prides itself on having really robust quality public institutions.
That's why I want sunlight put on it because actually,
if if they're true, they're really serious, Yes they are,
and if they're not true, they're equally The parties deserve
clarity on that too.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Without prejudging what the police might come up with. As
regards David McLeod as the leader of the party, is
you're understanding he's administratively negligent, it's not criminal.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, look, he's really made a big mistake. He's owned
up to that. He's fully operating with the police. He's
grateful it. Actually it's moved through to the police quickly,
which is the.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Police being I mean, I know rules have been broken,
because we all seem to admit the rules were broken.
I mean, they got better things to do with their time.
What are they going to do an electoral system.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We've got an electoral commission and you know, the resubmission
of his return, as you know, got put back to
electoral commission and then they determine whether it's a breach
or not that requires police or serious fraud investigation. I
think those things are kind of important. You know, we
don't want to have our public institutions, our democratic processes
sort of undermined in any form of way. So let's
follow the process.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Okay, Chinese Premier, he walks into the room and you go, hello, Premier,
how are you? How long before there's a few translations,
but how long before the word orcat comes up?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Look, it'll be pretty The Chinese relationship is a long
standing one. It's pretty complex. There's two parts to it.
We cooperate where we can on common interest and that's
trade and all that good stuff, but equally a lot
Let's be honest, we have different political systems, we have
different political cultures, histories, and as a result, we have
differences of opinion. That's no different from any other relationship
we have frankly as well. But we'll be talking about
(06:02):
the issues that are important to us, and I'm sure
he'll raise things with that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
He's only here in Australia because they're worried about the Americans.
That's basically what's about, isn't it. Well there's a bit
of trade on the side, but.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, actually, in this case, I mean his focus is
he's very much responsible for the economic agenda in China,
and he's concerned because China's obviously hitting headwinds. They've got
a declining population, they've got to slow down on their growth.
I've got high levels of youth unemployment. So his interest
is really about productivity and economic productivity. So the trade
piece of it will actually be a very important part
because from a New Zealand perspective, there is still lots
(06:32):
of opportunity there. There's also lots of opportunities Southeast Asia,
Northeast Asia and India as well.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Okay, which we'll talk about Japana. Just a couple of
moments that they allegedly want into the CPTPP. Are we
in a position to help them if they ask? Have
they asked?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
They might likely ask, but our positions really clear. We
don't actually side with any particular aspirant that wants to
enter the CPTPP or deeper is the other one grouping
as well. We have a process which is they've got
to demonstrate that they've she managed other trade obligations. Well actually,
well that's what they're This is what we call the
Auckland principles. There's criteria they've got to go through, and
(07:08):
there's a process that they need to go through.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Well, as one of the people who would agree or
not agree to letting them in, they wouldn't pass mustard,
would they.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Well, again, that's something that we don't pass judgment on
individual cases. We do genuinely run it through the group
and there has to be consensus within.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
The group, so everyone has to agree.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Correct, You've got to make sure you've held up high standards. Well,
they's a high sounds in your trading obligation?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Would you tell them that if we asked, Well, that's.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
What We'll be laying out those criteria for sure.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Because they happen have they I mean, they're not free traders,
they're not good traders there.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, that's asssible the CPTPP you, I'll be outlining the
criteria when I get asked about that.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I'm you know, the Europeans and the Americans seem to
have a few issues with the way they do trade
and that would trip them up.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Surely. Well, it's them and many other aspirants that have
actually got to meet that test. And so it's pretty clear.
We laid out three things that they've got to do.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Okay, Direction one one O, which has come since we
have last talked, is it worth making a phone call
to anyone in Australia to express your upset at this
or well done?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Well? I think it's actually I mean, the first thing
I'd say is like Australia is completely within its freedom
to set its own rules and laws as it sees fit.
We have a major issue when people get deported here
that have no connections to the country. I've spoken to
Prome Minister Albanesi, Foreign Minister Peters has spoken to the
Immigration minister involved. We've raised our concerns very very strongly,
and he has reassured me that there will continue to
(08:27):
be a common sense approach will apply. The devil will
be in the detail and that's what we now need
to monitor as it moves from words on a page
to actually implementation of process. We want to see how
that all shakes down. I'll continue to raise that with
him and he's well aware of our concerns. He reassured
me that a common sense approach would continue to apply
and let's see, okay, and that's what I wanted.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It is Japan just an extension of what you did
the other day.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Well, Japan's quite important because one it's the fourth largest
economy in the world. It's our fourth biggest trading partner, actually,
third biggest source of international students, fifth biggest source of tourists.
And we need to do two things there. One is
to go back and say, hey, listen on our core
businesses and horticulture and agriculture and tourism and education, we're
back open for business because we actually need to turn
the volume up in those markets, and that's why I'm
(09:11):
taking thirty one business delegation there. And the second thing
is we have lots of things of interest to them
around renewable energy, geo therm or actually space that they're
very interested as well, so Sir Peter Beck's coming to
Rocket Lab with us on.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
That as well.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
And then the other bit is the political pieces that
you promise to Kashida is a key player in the
region and now I mean from a security sense as
well as obviously from an economic sense. So it's important
that again I want the intensity of our relationships lifted
big time. That's why when I've got a recess break,
I'm shooting off very quickly as I did last week
to the Pacific, this week to China and having China
visitors and then into Japan.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Go, well, you're on the seven five seven again. Yeah,
we will it got us there. Mic. Last time, one's further.
It's a longer trick.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, but I just chouned down the takeoffs and the
landings and we go to Port Moresby for the refuel
and then on to take so I've got every confidence.
I've got more building confidence every time I get on
that plane.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
All right, go, well, nice to see you, Prime Minister
Christer Blackson.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
Time for the Prime Minister this Tuesday morning. Good to
see you. The Maori investigation, Mary Party investigation, the Public
Service Commission, who runs it and when are we getting
those details?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Yeah, so that'll be confirmed this week. The terms of reference,
who's the reviewer and actually the timing around that. Just
taking a step back, what we're trying to do is
make sure there's trust and confidence in the public institutions.
I want to make sure that we've actually got an
all of government sort of response to did the agencies
do the right thing managing conflicts? Making sure they manage
the data appropriately? And there's a bunch of independent agency
(00:30):
reviews going on, but I don't think it's appropriate that
agencies do their own sort of review for themselves. So
that's why I want to So.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
The ones that have started by the police, are they
wasting their time or not?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That's important that have a very narrow scope about what
they did or didn't do, but that all needs to
be fed into and interrogated by the Public Service Cool.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
So are you looking at government departments and what they
did or didn't do, or are you looking at the
Maori Party and what they did or did So.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
The police and the Privacy Commissioner, they have compelling powers
and they'll be able to look at the third party
actors in this case to party MARII us.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Right, all of that stuff yesterday's got nothing to do
with the Malory Party.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Correct, It's got to really look at the government agency
response and its interaction with those agents, with those parties,
particularly did they follow the right process on data management,
conflicts of interest, those sorts of things.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Although you're never going to find anything out because if
I go along to the Mariah and I'm filling in
a sensus and they say, hey, there's your number, and
I'm going to take that over there and then we'll
ring you later on and send you a few texts
and you can vote for the Mallory Party, your investigation
doesn't get anywhere near that does now.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
But what I'd say is the police investigation will and
the Privacy Commissioner investigation will because they have compelling powers,
coercive powers to be able to look at all of
that stuff, which they've already got investigations up and running
and doing it. What I'm making sure is that actually
New Zealanders know that there is trust and confidence in
their institutions. And then the agencies in particular, I don't
want them essentially marking their own homework. I want to
(01:52):
make sure that actually they've acted appropriately managing potential conflicts interest,
because the alligations are pretty serious. If they end up
in a place where data roams from one organization through
to another organization because someone's wearing multiple hats that stuff,
I want to know how has that been managed?
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Is that part the serious part? Or is it the
serious part the Mailory party who allegedly took information they
weren't entitled to and used it in a way that's
against the law.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Yeah, well that's the serious That's why these allegations are
incredibly serious, and that's why they need to be properly investigated.
And the police and the Privacy Commissioner have those powers
to do that part of it. And then I want
to make sure, rather than having a series of individual
agencies investigations which are important, but actually that there's a
whole of government response that we understand what government. You know,
I want to be reassured that government actually reconcreated wealth.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Does the Privacy Commissioner have the power to subpoena people?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Because yeses I understand it. They and the police do.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Because that's the only way you're going to get to
the bottom of it.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Those compelling powers, and that's why they've got those powers
and don't. I can't run an investigation that runs over
the top of all of that, and that's why when
I looked at all the options set that I had
in front of me, I decided that that was the
best way to go. And you know, they'll get an
independent reviewer and they'll be to get the terms of
reference and actually engage with all those agencies and make
sure that we've got that they've done everything right, because.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
You seem to me to have rules and you have laws.
So the rules, for example, is should a Maria whose
candidate is the CEO then turn out to be a
polling booth? Yep, Well, those that's your inquiry, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Well, that's a responsibility of the Electoral Commission, which will
actually be you know, the my inquiry will look at
all the government agencies and Crown indies if we have
to as well, and their response.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But then you go to the government that sets the
precedent by handing out lollies and warriors tickets to fill
in forms and that's part of it as well, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yeah, Well, that's the point I'm trying to get to
is like, well, you know, have have the government agencies
behaved appropriately and.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Well what's appropriate? Who decides?
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Well, Well, that's what I want the independent reviewer to
look at. So for example, there are real rules around
you know, when you pass you know, third party information
off or data off into different organizations, whether you're outsourcing
that to other community organizations to do a bunch of
work or not. I want to make sure that's all
really tight, and I want to make sure conflicts are managed. Now,
that's the other piece in this as well, is to
make sure that conflicts of interest are properly, properly managed.
(04:10):
You can't have you know, data flowing through a series
of organizations while someone's wearing multiple hats.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
I mean, but it was there for everyone to see.
I mean, the CEO is the candidate who runs the marah,
which is the polling booth, which is the center for
the census, which is the center of the COVID vaccine,
and the warriors tickets are being handed out and we
might be swapping numbers and texting people cluster.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, well that's why I'm saying the allegations are very serious.
New Zealand prides itself on having really robust quality public institutions.
That's why I want sunlight put on it because actually,
if if they're true, they're really serious, Yes they are,
and if they're not true, they're equally The parties deserve
clarity on that too.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Without prejudging what the police might come up with. As
regards David McLeod as the leader of the party, is
you're understanding he's administratively negligent, it's not criminal.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, look, he's really made a big mistake. He's owned
up to that. He's fully operating with the police. He's
grateful it. Actually it's moved through to the police quickly,
which is the.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Police being I mean, I know rules have been broken,
because we all seem to admit the rules were broken.
I mean, they got better things to do with their time.
What are they going to do an electoral system.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
We've got an electoral commission and you know, the resubmission
of his return, as you know, got put back to
electoral commission and then they determine whether it's a breach
or not that requires police or serious fraud investigation. I
think those things are kind of important. You know, we
don't want to have our public institutions, our democratic processes
sort of undermined in any form of way. So let's
follow the process.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Okay, Chinese Premier, he walks into the room and you go, hello, Premier,
how are you? How long before there's a few translations,
but how long before the word orcat comes up?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Look, it'll be pretty The Chinese relationship is a long
standing one. It's pretty complex. There's two parts to it.
We cooperate where we can on common interest and that's
trade and all that good stuff, but equally a lot
Let's be honest, we have different political systems, we have
different political cultures, histories, and as a result, we have
differences of opinion. That's no different from any other relationship
we have frankly as well. But we'll be talking about
(06:02):
the issues that are important to us, and I'm sure
he'll raise things with that.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
He's only here in Australia because they're worried about the Americans.
That's basically what's about, isn't it. Well there's a bit
of trade on the side, but.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Yeah, actually, in this case, I mean his focus is
he's very much responsible for the economic agenda in China,
and he's concerned because China's obviously hitting headwinds. They've got
a declining population, they've got to slow down on their growth.
I've got high levels of youth unemployment. So his interest
is really about productivity and economic productivity. So the trade
piece of it will actually be a very important part
because from a New Zealand perspective, there is still lots
(06:32):
of opportunity there. There's also lots of opportunities Southeast Asia,
Northeast Asia and India as well.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Okay, which we'll talk about Japana. Just a couple of
moments that they allegedly want into the CPTPP. Are we
in a position to help them if they ask? Have
they asked?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
They might likely ask, but our positions really clear. We
don't actually side with any particular aspirant that wants to
enter the CPTPP or deeper is the other one grouping
as well. We have a process which is they've got
to demonstrate that they've she managed other trade obligations. Well actually,
well that's what they're This is what we call the
Auckland principles. There's criteria they've got to go through, and
(07:08):
there's a process that they need to go through.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Well, as one of the people who would agree or
not agree to letting them in, they wouldn't pass mustard,
would they.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Well, again, that's something that we don't pass judgment on
individual cases. We do genuinely run it through the group
and there has to be consensus within.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
The group, so everyone has to agree.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Correct, You've got to make sure you've held up high standards. Well,
they's a high sounds in your trading obligation?
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Would you tell them that if we asked, Well, that's.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
What We'll be laying out those criteria for sure.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Because they happen have they I mean, they're not free traders,
they're not good traders there.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Well, that's asssible the CPTPP you, I'll be outlining the
criteria when I get asked about that.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I'm you know, the Europeans and the Americans seem to
have a few issues with the way they do trade
and that would trip them up.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Surely. Well, it's them and many other aspirants that have
actually got to meet that test. And so it's pretty clear.
We laid out three things that they've got to do.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Okay, Direction one one O, which has come since we
have last talked, is it worth making a phone call
to anyone in Australia to express your upset at this
or well done?
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Well? I think it's actually I mean, the first thing
I'd say is like Australia is completely within its freedom
to set its own rules and laws as it sees fit.
We have a major issue when people get deported here
that have no connections to the country. I've spoken to
Prome Minister Albanesi, Foreign Minister Peters has spoken to the
Immigration minister involved. We've raised our concerns very very strongly,
and he has reassured me that there will continue to
(08:27):
be a common sense approach will apply. The devil will
be in the detail and that's what we now need
to monitor as it moves from words on a page
to actually implementation of process. We want to see how
that all shakes down. I'll continue to raise that with
him and he's well aware of our concerns. He reassured
me that a common sense approach would continue to apply
and let's see, okay, and that's what I wanted.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It is Japan just an extension of what you did
the other day.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Well, Japan's quite important because one it's the fourth largest
economy in the world. It's our fourth biggest trading partner, actually,
third biggest source of international students, fifth biggest source of tourists.
And we need to do two things there. One is
to go back and say, hey, listen on our core
businesses and horticulture and agriculture and tourism and education, we're
back open for business because we actually need to turn
the volume up in those markets, and that's why I'm
(09:11):
taking thirty one business delegation there. And the second thing
is we have lots of things of interest to them
around renewable energy, geo therm or actually space that they're
very interested as well, so Sir Peter Beck's coming to
Rocket Lab with us on.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
That as well.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
And then the other bit is the political pieces that
you promise to Kashida is a key player in the
region and now I mean from a security sense as
well as obviously from an economic sense. So it's important
that again I want the intensity of our relationships lifted
big time. That's why when I've got a recess break,
I'm shooting off very quickly as I did last week
to the Pacific, this week to China and having China
visitors and then into Japan.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Go, well, you're on the seven five seven again. Yeah,
we will it got us there. Mic. Last time, one's further.
It's a longer trick.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Yeah, but I just chouned down the takeoffs and the
landings and we go to Port Moresby for the refuel
and then on to take so I've got every confidence.
I've got more building confidence every time I get on
that plane.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
All right, go, well, nice to see you, Prime Minister
Christer Blackson.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
It'd be from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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