Politicians on both sides of the divide agree that the Fair Digital News Bargaining Bill is worth a crack.
The Government's progressing an amended version of the Bill, which will make digital platforms like Facebook pay for news content.
It is set to progress through Parliament with the support of National, NZ First, and most likely Labour, but ACT's invoked its right to 'agree to disagree' and will oppose the Bill.
National Minister Mark Mitchell told Mike Hosking he thinks everyone agrees that they have to be doing something.
He said that bringing companies like Google and Facebook to the table is a big mountain to climb, but they should still continue to look for options and ways of trying to create a level playing field.
Labour’s Carmel Sepuloni agreed, saying it's probably the one thing the two will agree on in this interview.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It is politics. Wednesday. Mark Mitchell is with us long
with Carmel Seppaloni, who is in for Ginny Anderson, who
I believe to be in China. Good morning to you both.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Morning Carmel.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Now Mark, you're on the road, you're on the wire raside,
when's the Prime minister game?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Way as he's looking at Saturday. He's trying to get
the afford Saturday.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
So yeah, is there something wrong with the council there
as regards the bar, as regards the flooding and why
are you involved or the government involved in something council
should do and clearly haven't been doing properly.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Look, so there's not the the Warror Council themselves have
done an outstanding job. The staff then had done an
outstanding job in terms of not only deal with Gabriel,
but obviously this latest flooding event. And of course the
government has got a role to play to make sure
that we're alongside them and supporting them in that and
of course the town itself. There is major concern around
(00:53):
the management of the river mouth and whether or not
that contributed to you know, it made the flood. It
seems a stream. Yeah, Well, I mean but Obviously, there's
got to be a process that's gone through to identify clearly,
you know what the issues are. Number one, to address
those issues for warra. Number two, to make sure that
(01:13):
they can have confidence that the mitigations put in place
that doesn't happen again.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Okay, Carmel, a couple of things for you. One, why
are so many of your people? That's not criticism, is
just a question. Why are so many of your people
on leave? Is it because it's recess and everyone just
naps off and goes on holiday.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Well, I think it's still a lot of us here.
We've got the majority of our labor caucus in Auckland
this week for away caucus here and people do take leave,
so you know, like the best time to take it
is during a recess. So obviously we want to say
how many people are away at any given time. Do
you think I wouldn't be surprised that there's a few
national imps there are on lead too.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
The probably is is there enough parliament going on Carmel
At the moment there seems to be a lot of downweks.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It feels like that, particularly after a budget, we haven't
had the.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Opportunity there we would have usually.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
To interrogate the government because they've had very huge sitting weeks,
so they seem to have manufactured it in a way
where we haven't had the opportunity to scrutinize them, which.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
We didn't scrutinize us. There, it's a perfectosure.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, that's right, that's a really good point, Mike. But look,
we just came through a full scrutiny week where the
Labor Party had a whole week of scrutiny of government ministers,
which we did.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
We did, We did have that.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Soames, since we interrogation, sustained interrogation over a theory of
sitting week, because unfortunately you had a.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Week of sustained interrogation that didn't really seem to go
go anyway you though quite far.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Actually, Mark, there are quite a few detrimental headlines for
you guys.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
You know, it was an interesting week. I think in totality,
would you agree Carmel in general take the politics out
of for a moment. As an idea, scrutiny Week's a
good idea.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I think it is a good idea. I think that
we can make it better. It's the third time that
it's been held but certainly had the government under the
spotlight for that week.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, tell us Mark, I know you're in why Rara
and this is probably a million miles away from where
your head is. But this media bill, which was Labour's
idea originally, of course, and Goldsmith rolled it out yesterday,
are you guys in National genuinely in for this audio
sort of? Is this a soopweed? We'll give it a
crack and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
No, I think we know we're definitely in for it.
Otherwise we wouldn't have put the bill forward. But you know, yes,
it's it's Paul Goldsmith's portfolio area of but no, we
are fully we are fully committed to it.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
About that, do you think it'll work?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I don't know. I mean, honestly, might that's a question.
I've heard your challenges and in the points that you've made,
I think they're very, very good and valid ones. I
think that, But I think at the end of the day,
get Paul on and have a chat about it. You know,
I can certainly go through one of the things that
obviously have been trying that are trying to achieve through
the bill, and I think everyone agrees that you have
to be doing something, you know, and that's except what
(04:08):
Paul's doing.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
See, here's the interesting thing, cantill. I mean, I know
it's Willie's idea and all that sort of stuff. So
you guys will please no, I assume you're going to vote.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
For it, right, Yeah, I think that's definitely where we're heading.
So you should get done, Paul and Willie on. I
think it would be a good discussion. They might be agreeing, but.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It strikes me as and look, you know, give me
the credit for having been in this industry for a while,
I just don't. I mean, I like the idea in
the sense that, yes, there's a problem. I just don't
see these guys coming to the table because they don't care.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, I just.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Keep going back.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
No, I was just going to say, look, I do
agree with that when you look around the countries in
Australia recently, and yeah, they're struggling and gripping these things.
But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't still continue to
look for options in ways of trying to create a
level playing field. But yes, but I agree with you
Mike that it's a big mountain to climb.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, where do you reckon.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Come on, Yeah, this is probably the one thing that
we'll agree on in this interview.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So you think it's a mountain to climb, but it's
worth a crack to see if you can do it,
and it's better than doing nothing.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Okay, Mark, you're on the news this morning. Are these
briefing papers to you suggesting that your emphasis on youth
crime getting it down too reliant on the police, not
enough on early detection or early intervention agencies. You say, what, I.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Know, they've definitely got it. I mean, I'm focusing on
the police as well obviously on Minister of Police, but
they're doing an outstanding job. But yes, they haven't always
been supported well by other agencies and we've got to
focus on that as a government to make sure that
that changes. Look, every agency has got a role to
play and my position as policeman is just quite simply
been to step up and play your role, because you know,
(05:52):
the police are doing their job. They are detecting, they
are to investigating, they are arresting offenders, they are opposing
bail and then they straighten their count and.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
That's the judicial side of the equation. We had Brendan
Crompton on earlier from Blue Light. He said, that's all fine,
but the police come in and so he was talking
about your military academies as well. That's a fact, and
that's fine. But what he was saying is if you
get the kid earlier in the intervene earlier, you don't
need all of that. I mean, And that makes sense
to a degree, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
No. I agree, And you know, Bluelights, they're doing an
outstanding job. They've been around a long time and they
invest in not just our kids that are going on
the playoffs, but I award the ones that are doing
well too. But listen, the reality is this might is
that a lot of these programs are very effective for
the eighty or ninety percent of the duth and youth
and juveile offenders. The ones that we're talking about are
the recidivius violent youth offenders, the ones that are responsible
(06:42):
for multiple aggravated robberies, and we need a really serious intervention,
and that is taking them out of the community where
they're creating the arm and then investing in them so
they can come back and they got the best chance
of making good decisions in their lives instead of bad ones.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Carmel. Let me ask you this Q two ended as
this action plan for the government. Q three came into
play this week, so Q to. One thing they didn't
do was Tipu king They couldn't get the consultation underway
when you as opposition, now look at that. So you
put it together, they're deconstructing it. What do you do
if you get back and do you put it back
together again? And how long does that pattern go on for?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Are you still talking about the youth picking? Oh yeah, well,
I mean it's a mess at the moment. You know,
like the government don't really have a plan for what
they're going to do in the space. You know, what
we saw when we came into government in two thy
and seventeen was a polytech environment and landscape that was
(07:36):
indeed trouble financially. They were not sustainable and we had
to come up with a plan. It was the creation
of Tipu Kinger. The government have not allowed that to
continue and to actually reach the benefits. So now they
turn it on its head with no plan moving forward.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
But that's that's my question. We start back, that's my question.
You're watching them, you're watching them. Forget the politics. You
don't agree. I get that, but you put it together,
they're pulling it apart. What do you do next time
round put it back together again?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I mean that that is going to have to be
a discussion that we have over the over the next
couple of years. We're not in a position to announce policy,
but they have turned it upside down unnecessarily. They should
have just continued with the trajectory that their Pukinger was
on to ensure that we had an educational, terutory landscape
that was going to work for New Zealanders, and they
(08:25):
haven't done that as well as that, you know, disestablishing
the workforce Development councils, disestablishing the regional skills leadership groups,
all of the things that we're going to help with
actually providing a coherent workforce training a landscape across the
country so that we've got people who can access the
(08:46):
skills and training that they need to be able to
take up the jobs that are there.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Mike Carmel was right that it was it was a
complete mess. It wasn't financially sustainable. And Penny Simmons, who
of course has got a big background experience in this field,
is doing a lot of work to make sure that
we do have a world class bag.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I'm saying in two thousand that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Is financially sustainable because Carble, you guys made a real
hash of it.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So in twenty and seventeen marks and then we were
a triple it is you turned it all upside down again.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So many hashes, so little time. Chris Hipkins in his
TV cabinet. Be honest, Carmel, were you genuinely impressed with that?
I'm sorry, didn't he Chris Hopkins in his TV cabinet.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
And his TV cabinet?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Are you not? Are you not up on the Chris
Hopkins TV.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Cabin I see the social media and I mean it
just goes to show skillful and you know, hidden talents
our leader of the Labor Party.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
The leader of the Labor Party had.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Were you not impressed, Garble?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I'm not sure. Mark? Can you build a TV cabinet
from scratch?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I don't think he could cut one of those together.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
As long as the allen Keys of the year, I'm
good to go.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Nice to see you both appreciate it very much, Carmel
Cephaloni and Mark Mitchell. If you missed the story, I
was going to use the word loosely, but it was
in the mainstream media. He took Chippy. Part of my
problem is he's clearly got a lot of time on
his hands because putting together a from scratch television cabinet
is a multi hour project. So he's probably on leave
(10:32):
as well. Carmel Cephaloni, Mark Machell.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
He had a few things off for more from the
Mic Asking Breakfast Listen live to news talks. It'd be
from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
It is politics. Wednesday. Mark Mitchell is with us long
with Carmel Seppaloni, who is in for Ginny Anderson, who
I believe to be in China. Good morning to you both.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Morning Carmel.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Now Mark, you're on the road, you're on the wire raside,
when's the Prime minister game?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Way as he's looking at Saturday. He's trying to get
the afford Saturday.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
So yeah, is there something wrong with the council there
as regards the bar, as regards the flooding and why
are you involved or the government involved in something council
should do and clearly haven't been doing properly.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Look, so there's not the the Warror Council themselves have
done an outstanding job. The staff then had done an
outstanding job in terms of not only deal with Gabriel,
but obviously this latest flooding event. And of course the
government has got a role to play to make sure
that we're alongside them and supporting them in that and
of course the town itself. There is major concern around
(00:53):
the management of the river mouth and whether or not
that contributed to you know, it made the flood. It
seems a stream. Yeah, Well, I mean but Obviously, there's
got to be a process that's gone through to identify clearly,
you know what the issues are. Number one, to address
those issues for warra. Number two, to make sure that
(01:13):
they can have confidence that the mitigations put in place
that doesn't happen again.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Okay, Carmel, a couple of things for you. One, why
are so many of your people? That's not criticism, is
just a question. Why are so many of your people
on leave? Is it because it's recess and everyone just
naps off and goes on holiday.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Well, I think it's still a lot of us here.
We've got the majority of our labor caucus in Auckland
this week for away caucus here and people do take leave,
so you know, like the best time to take it
is during a recess. So obviously we want to say
how many people are away at any given time. Do
you think I wouldn't be surprised that there's a few
national imps there are on lead too.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
The probably is is there enough parliament going on Carmel
At the moment there seems to be a lot of downweks.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
It feels like that, particularly after a budget, we haven't
had the.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Opportunity there we would have usually.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
To interrogate the government because they've had very huge sitting weeks,
so they seem to have manufactured it in a way
where we haven't had the opportunity to scrutinize them, which.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
We didn't scrutinize us. There, it's a perfectosure.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Well, that's right, that's a really good point, Mike. But look,
we just came through a full scrutiny week where the
Labor Party had a whole week of scrutiny of government ministers,
which we did.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
We did, We did have that.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Soames, since we interrogation, sustained interrogation over a theory of
sitting week, because unfortunately you had a.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Week of sustained interrogation that didn't really seem to go
go anyway you though quite far.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Actually, Mark, there are quite a few detrimental headlines for
you guys.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
You know, it was an interesting week. I think in totality,
would you agree Carmel in general take the politics out
of for a moment. As an idea, scrutiny Week's a
good idea.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I think it is a good idea. I think that
we can make it better. It's the third time that
it's been held but certainly had the government under the
spotlight for that week.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, tell us Mark, I know you're in why Rara
and this is probably a million miles away from where
your head is. But this media bill, which was Labour's
idea originally, of course, and Goldsmith rolled it out yesterday,
are you guys in National genuinely in for this audio
sort of? Is this a soopweed? We'll give it a
crack and see what happens.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
No, I think we know we're definitely in for it.
Otherwise we wouldn't have put the bill forward. But you know, yes,
it's it's Paul Goldsmith's portfolio area of but no, we
are fully we are fully committed to it.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
About that, do you think it'll work?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I don't know. I mean, honestly, might that's a question.
I've heard your challenges and in the points that you've made,
I think they're very, very good and valid ones. I
think that, But I think at the end of the day,
get Paul on and have a chat about it. You know,
I can certainly go through one of the things that
obviously have been trying that are trying to achieve through
the bill, and I think everyone agrees that you have
to be doing something, you know, and that's except what
(04:08):
Paul's doing.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
See, here's the interesting thing, cantill. I mean, I know
it's Willie's idea and all that sort of stuff. So
you guys will please no, I assume you're going to vote.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
For it, right, Yeah, I think that's definitely where we're heading.
So you should get done, Paul and Willie on. I
think it would be a good discussion. They might be agreeing, but.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It strikes me as and look, you know, give me
the credit for having been in this industry for a while,
I just don't. I mean, I like the idea in
the sense that, yes, there's a problem. I just don't
see these guys coming to the table because they don't care.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, I just.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Keep going back.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
No, I was just going to say, look, I do
agree with that when you look around the countries in
Australia recently, and yeah, they're struggling and gripping these things.
But it doesn't mean that we shouldn't still continue to
look for options in ways of trying to create a
level playing field. But yes, but I agree with you
Mike that it's a big mountain to climb.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, where do you reckon.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Come on, Yeah, this is probably the one thing that
we'll agree on in this interview.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So you think it's a mountain to climb, but it's
worth a crack to see if you can do it,
and it's better than doing nothing.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Okay, Mark, you're on the news this morning. Are these
briefing papers to you suggesting that your emphasis on youth
crime getting it down too reliant on the police, not
enough on early detection or early intervention agencies. You say, what, I.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Know, they've definitely got it. I mean, I'm focusing on
the police as well obviously on Minister of Police, but
they're doing an outstanding job. But yes, they haven't always
been supported well by other agencies and we've got to
focus on that as a government to make sure that
that changes. Look, every agency has got a role to
play and my position as policeman is just quite simply
been to step up and play your role, because you know,
(05:52):
the police are doing their job. They are detecting, they
are to investigating, they are arresting offenders, they are opposing
bail and then they straighten their count and.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
That's the judicial side of the equation. We had Brendan
Crompton on earlier from Blue Light. He said, that's all fine,
but the police come in and so he was talking
about your military academies as well. That's a fact, and
that's fine. But what he was saying is if you
get the kid earlier in the intervene earlier, you don't
need all of that. I mean, And that makes sense
to a degree, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
No. I agree, And you know, Bluelights, they're doing an
outstanding job. They've been around a long time and they
invest in not just our kids that are going on
the playoffs, but I award the ones that are doing
well too. But listen, the reality is this might is
that a lot of these programs are very effective for
the eighty or ninety percent of the duth and youth
and juveile offenders. The ones that we're talking about are
the recidivius violent youth offenders, the ones that are responsible
(06:42):
for multiple aggravated robberies, and we need a really serious intervention,
and that is taking them out of the community where
they're creating the arm and then investing in them so
they can come back and they got the best chance
of making good decisions in their lives instead of bad ones.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Carmel. Let me ask you this Q two ended as
this action plan for the government. Q three came into
play this week, so Q to. One thing they didn't
do was Tipu king They couldn't get the consultation underway
when you as opposition, now look at that. So you
put it together, they're deconstructing it. What do you do
if you get back and do you put it back
together again? And how long does that pattern go on for?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Are you still talking about the youth picking? Oh yeah, well,
I mean it's a mess at the moment. You know,
like the government don't really have a plan for what
they're going to do in the space. You know, what
we saw when we came into government in two thy
and seventeen was a polytech environment and landscape that was
(07:36):
indeed trouble financially. They were not sustainable and we had
to come up with a plan. It was the creation
of Tipu Kinger. The government have not allowed that to
continue and to actually reach the benefits. So now they
turn it on its head with no plan moving forward.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
But that's that's my question. We start back, that's my question.
You're watching them, you're watching them. Forget the politics. You
don't agree. I get that, but you put it together,
they're pulling it apart. What do you do next time
round put it back together again?
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I mean that that is going to have to be
a discussion that we have over the over the next
couple of years. We're not in a position to announce policy,
but they have turned it upside down unnecessarily. They should
have just continued with the trajectory that their Pukinger was
on to ensure that we had an educational, terutory landscape
that was going to work for New Zealanders, and they
(08:25):
haven't done that as well as that, you know, disestablishing
the workforce Development councils, disestablishing the regional skills leadership groups,
all of the things that we're going to help with
actually providing a coherent workforce training a landscape across the
country so that we've got people who can access the
(08:46):
skills and training that they need to be able to
take up the jobs that are there.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Mike Carmel was right that it was it was a
complete mess. It wasn't financially sustainable. And Penny Simmons, who
of course has got a big background experience in this field,
is doing a lot of work to make sure that
we do have a world class bag.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I'm saying in two thousand that.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Is financially sustainable because Carble, you guys made a real
hash of it.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
So in twenty and seventeen marks and then we were
a triple it is you turned it all upside down again.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
So many hashes, so little time. Chris Hipkins in his
TV cabinet. Be honest, Carmel, were you genuinely impressed with that?
I'm sorry, didn't he Chris Hopkins in his TV cabinet.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
And his TV cabinet?
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Are you not? Are you not up on the Chris
Hopkins TV.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Cabin I see the social media and I mean it
just goes to show skillful and you know, hidden talents
our leader of the Labor Party.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
The leader of the Labor Party had.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Were you not impressed, Garble?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I'm not sure. Mark? Can you build a TV cabinet
from scratch?
Speaker 3 (10:01):
I don't think he could cut one of those together.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
As long as the allen Keys of the year, I'm
good to go.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Nice to see you both appreciate it very much, Carmel
Cephaloni and Mark Mitchell. If you missed the story, I
was going to use the word loosely, but it was
in the mainstream media. He took Chippy. Part of my
problem is he's clearly got a lot of time on
his hands because putting together a from scratch television cabinet
is a multi hour project. So he's probably on leave
(10:32):
as well. Carmel Cephaloni, Mark Machell.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
He had a few things off for more from the
Mic Asking Breakfast Listen live to news talks. It'd be
from six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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