Paul Goldsmith: Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Minister on the plan to override a Court of Appeal decision regarding Customary Marine Titles

The Government wants to override a Court of Appeal decision over Māori claims to coastlines. 

The Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Minister has announced plans to tighten restrictions, requiring iwi seeking Customary Marine Titles to prove they've had continuous exclusive use and ownership of the area since 1840. 

Paul Goldsmith told Mike Hosking a 2023 court ruling went too far in weakening the eligibility test, and now they're having to tidy it up. 

He says while it is unusual for the Government to override the courts, a high threshold must be reinstated. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The government is moving on intervention as courts over customary
rights to coastlines. Of course they will change the Marine
and Coastal are Ier Act, basically taking it back to
what it was before the courts got involved in the
first place. Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is well, this very
good morning to you.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Good morning, how are you?

Speaker 1 (00:13):
How? I'm well, thank you. How much of this is
about a coalition deal and how much of this is
really hand on hard about the right thing to do?

Speaker 2 (00:21):
Well, it's very much about the right thing to do.
What we're doing is say, be asserting that all New
Zealanders have an interest in what happens in the postal
and marine areas. But we also recognize customary marine title
through the legislation. But Parliament always set a very high
bar for that because it does give valuable rights. It

(00:41):
gives the ability of people who have the customary marine
title the ability to grant resource consents or not in
particular areas for things such as aquaculture. So it's valuable
rights and that goes against the normal assumption that people
will have an equals say and what goes on in
their environment. And so we set a high threshold in

(01:01):
the legislation, the courts effectively materially reduced that threshold, and
that's why we're making the unusual step of overriding the
courts and restating what we thought was quite clear.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
So are the courts overreached, Well.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
We disagreed with the Court of Appeal absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Is there too much interventionism from courts these days in general?

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Oh no, no, I mean there's what's called a committee
between the different branches of government and I don't seek
to undermine that or to be critical of the courts
in general. It's a very unusual step, but Parliament is sovereign.
It says the laws, and in this case, we thought
we set a high test for what is a very

(01:47):
significant move away from what people would expect in terms
of having their say about what happens in the coastal area. Therefore,
we set a high test and we're going to make
sure that that sticks when.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
They set the lower bar. Are there practice out workings
where things have gone wrong as a result of that decision?

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Well, it's it's a long, slow process. So what we've
had there have been nine cases that have been decided
that will we're not going to overturn those specific cases
and the consequences of that haven't really flown through. But ultimately,
as I say, if you have customery marine title, that

(02:27):
group does has the ability to decline resort consents in
that area. And you know just what that means. You know,
there are things that are excluded. They can't you stop
existing infrastructure, for example, But for new infrastructure there is
quite a difficult and detailed process to work your way through.
And for things such as agriculture, it's just yes or no.

(02:48):
Now that's now, that's a that's a big deal, and
that's why we set a high test before that could
be given exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
So where does it and the reason I ask about you,
I mean you you are the ultimate court of the land,
of course, but where does and and the refine funding
problems currently, as you're well aware where some of the
Marri cases going to court in the first place. What's
the point of funding Marie cases to go to court
of the governments then going to overturn the court. I
mean that's just going run around in circles, isn't it.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Well, yes, but I mean we set up the system
the previous National government with the support of the multi
party with that threshold that was a high threshold recognizing
mari customary rights while protecting the legitimate interests of all
New Zealanders. We passed the law and that's the process,
and unfortunately it has gone awry given a decision that

(03:34):
we think materially reduced that and so we've got to
tidy that up. But we will continue with the process
and there will be parts of the coastline that come
under customary marine title and there are certainly parts around
on the far east coast where Marie have held the
land along the coastline since eighteen forty and that makes

(03:55):
sense and that it is legitimate and that's what the
purpose of the legislation is.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
All right. Good to talk to you, and a good weekend,
Paul Goldsmith, Justice Minister.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
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