Andrew Coster: Police Commissioner on the findings of the inquiry into the treatment inequities depending on race, sexuality, gender, mental health

Police say gaps in how they treat people are often explained by things outside of their control.  

They commissioned a three-year inquiry which has revealed ongoing inequities in treatment of people based on their race, sexuality, gender, and mental health.  

It's offered 40 recommendations. 

Police Commissioner Andrew Coster told Mike Hosking it found there's different outcomes for people they deal with, depending on their background.  

He says the report also finds many of the gaps are explained by things upstream of Police, like drug, alcohol, and mental health issues. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What don't we make of this report and to so
called police racism, There isn't enough fairness and equity in
policing services. Apparently the issues are systemic. The Policeman Commissioner
Andrew Costa with us good morning.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Good morning, MIKEL.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
I'm getting mixed messages out of this report. Are you
racist or not?

Speaker 2 (00:16):
The report has found gaps in relation to outcomes for
people depending on their backgrounds. However, the report has also
found that many of those gaps can be explained by
things that occur upstream of police. For example, drug and
alcohol is shoes, mental health issues and so on. So
the outcomes are actually very confirmatory of what police would

(00:40):
say about what counter is.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
This robust research? It seems to be based more on
a vibe than hard statistical data.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
It is robust and it's been done by respected researchers
and overseeing by experienced research panel. There are different methodologies
that have been used, and of course you know there's
a mix of data where it's available and then also
speaking to people's lived experience. If you're like so, it
is a mix of methodology.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Right, So when they say you're more likely to be
stopped if you Maori. How do they come to that conclusion.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
That conclusion is difficult based on data. The data that
we're strongest on is around prosecutions, where we have a
pretty rich data set. That one's really interesting because the
raw data might suggest that Maria is much as three
times more likely to be prosecuted three hundred percent, but
when you account for offending history has been seriously, it's

(01:40):
more like twelve percent exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
So that was my next question. So surely you are
more likely to be charged if you're already in the system,
you're known to the police, and you commit yet another crime.
I mean, why wouldn't you get charged? The fact you
happened to be Maor's neither here nor there. You're a criminal.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, So the strongest driver likelihood to charge is actually
if you're a member of a gang, who roughly two
hundred percent more likely to be charged non gang members.
And then factors like previous offending age shows, you know,
as indicative as a as a sort of factor. So

(02:20):
there are whole lot of things that come into it.
But in the end, the report does suggest that please
significantly deal with what is in front of us and
make Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
See I'm trying to defend you on this because I
just if you're a member of a gang, once again,
the fact that you're Maori is neither here nor there now.
The a lot of Marian gangs, but we know that.
But I mean, if you're a gang member who breaks
the law, I would expect you as the police to
do something about it. What's that got to do with race?

Speaker 2 (02:44):
And we know that gangs are very prominent and offending
in our communities. It dealing drugs and whatever else, and
that doesn't form the approach our people take now. To
be fair, there is still an unexplained gap and some
of the work that we need to continue to do.
But that explain gap has been reducing at quite a rate.
So five years ago it was nineteen percent. As of

(03:08):
this research, it's now at twelve percent. So there are
things that are also making shift in a positive way.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Correct me if I'm wrong, But part of the problem
solving that you would be under eye as far as
I can work out from my casual observation of the
police force in this country, it would be one of
the most multicultural operations going. Is that not true? And
if it is true, surely that would help address the
perceived problem.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, it's incredibly diverse, and the young people coming in
to our organization today are very alive to these issues
and they are very careful. So I have a huge
amount of confidence and how people were dealing with very
difficult situations every day. But it is a great police service.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
Right while, I've got you a couple of other things.
The layoffs announced yesterday, swear hand on heart. There are
no frontline people being affected by this.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
All of the roles that are in focus in there
are a non frontline roles, so they are in the
corporate support area. Now, you don't get a frontline officer
on the street without a car and a property to
be based and technology to support them. And so these
roles do relate to some of those areas, but none

(04:20):
of the roles impacted our frontline roles.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Can you cope?

Speaker 2 (04:25):
Look, we're a big organization. It's a large number, but
as a percentage it's not huge. And in the end
haven't finance as the type we've been asked to make
a contribution, and that's what we have to do.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
The Auckland CBD stats, crime is coming down, People on
the beat is working. Do you believe the numbers.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I do, and those numbers have been on a
gradual decline since about March twenty twenty three. Now there's
a lot more work to do, and I do think
that we're making progress. A lot of the issues are
in sort of anti social behavior more so than criminal offending,
and those problems are a bit stickier to address and

(05:05):
needs a broader effort. But yep, I think we're making
a difference.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
And the formal warning issue, you've got that the court
has found that if the person didn't agree with you,
then it's illegal. Were you handing out formal warnings in
lieu of arresting people and doing proper policing or not.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I'll give you the most likely one of the scenarios
that featured in formal warnings, and it's the situation where
you have, say, a sexual assault allegation, you don't have
enough evidence to pursue it in court, and the offender
was willing to accept a warning but wouldn't admit the offending.

(05:42):
That was quite often a good closure for a complainant
because they would at least feel like the person has
had that addressed. But the court's regularly said, basically, if
you can't prove it in court, then you can't give
a warning, and so that significantly reduces the opportunity for
for that kind of.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Activity that make your life more difficult.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Uh, look at in the that's what the law says.
I do think that that resolution made a difference for
some complainants who maybe didn't want to go through a
court process but felt like if the offending had at
least been addressed in some way. But you know, in
the end, if we if we can't prove it, the
law says, we can't woman for it, and that's kind

(06:26):
of where we are.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
Okay, appreciate it. Andrew costa police commissioner.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
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