David Seymour: ACT Leader on the Treaty Principles Bill being introduced to Parliament

ACT leader David Seymour told Newstalk ZB’s Mike Hosking that he refuted claims that the bill was dead post the first reading. 

He said the other parties see “that this far more constructive than anything they have seen before”. 

“I think it's very clear that more and more people see that this is an initiative that promotes equal rights.” 

He reiterated that Prime Minister Christopher Luxon had not taken him up on his multiple offers to “join the wagon”. 

“I think the National party is afraid of taking on hard issues.” 

Seymour said that this Bill is about giving “everyone a fair chance in life”. 

“Ultimately we are democratising the treaty... we are saying anyone gets a say in our constitutional future. 

“There has become this idea that the treaty is a partnership so therefore everything becomes about your identity and which side of the partnership you are on. 

“Until we remove the underlying idea that our treaty is a partnership between races and we each have a different role in our society based on our background those policies will all be back in the stroke of a pen.” 

He said Bill has produced a “difficult debate” on whether the Treaty allows people to have equal rights or provides a partnership based on identity. 

“If I am completely wrong and it never gets past the first reading, all that happens is that we produce the idea that each New Zealander has the right to have a say about their constitutional future. 

“My ultimate challenge to those who oppose this bill… where in the world has divided people up based on this background been a success?” 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Treaty Principles Bill arrived at Parliament yesterday, debated next week,

(00:03):
then sent off to select committee. Nothing the government has
done has created more ranks than this. Of course, the
Act Party leaders behind it, David Seymore's with us good.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Morning, good morning mate.

Speaker 1 (00:11):
Is what we've seen so far, your inability to explain
it clearly, or they just don't like it, and that's that.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh, I think it's very clear that more and more
people see this is an initiative that promotes equal rights.
In fact, if this country is about anything, it is
about the idea that no matter who you are or
where you're from, you get a fair go at life.
And the people that don't like it are simultaneously saying
that the debate is going nowhere, but also that it

(00:41):
must be stopped before it goes anywhere. And that's because
ultimately we are democratizing the treaty. We're saying anyone can
have a say on our constitutional future. You won't be
shouted down because you're not an expert or the you're
wrong kind of person, or you're racist or anything like that.
What we're seeing as people don't really know how to

(01:03):
respond to the treaty being democratized.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
What I don't understand, and I think most people listening
to this would be on your side broadly speaking, having
read what you put forward yesterday wasn't dramatically different from
what you put forward in the first place. And I
think most of us understand that. You know, if we
can all be equal, that would be fantastic. And the
courts are interventionist and that's a problem. Here's the difficulty
you face. How is it you couldn't get National across

(01:26):
the line on this? Why is it dead? Essentially?

Speaker 2 (01:30):
I think the National Party are afraid of taking on
hard issues. That's why I never joined the National Party.
That's why I believe we need act. It is difficult
because over the last forty eight years since the Treaty
of White Angy Acts was passed, the courts of the
White Angi Tribunal and so on have built up this
idea that the Treaty is a partnership and therefore everything

(01:51):
in New Zealand becomes about your identity in which side
of the partnership you're on. How do you govern three warders?
As there are separate Maori health author is there going
to be different consultation rights under the Resource Management Act.
Now I think the National Party would say, oh, that
we got rid of all those things. My point is
that until we remove the underlying idea that our treaty

(02:13):
is a partnership between races and we each have a
different role in our society based on our background, those
policies will all be back in the stroke of a pen.
This is about a big, and I admit difficult debate
whether our treaty gives us equal rights or a role
in a partnership where we're defined by identity. That's the

(02:33):
kind of thing that actors Herefore other parties often aren't.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Would you accept that as it stands right now here
this morning, it's dead post the first reading.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
No, because the other thing I know about other parties
is that are very responsive to public opinion, and they
may see that this debate is far more worthwhile and
far more constructive than anything that they've seen before. And
I say to Chris lux And every now and then, look,
you're always welcome to get back aboard the wagon if

(03:06):
you'd like to, so that may happen. I also just
make the point. But if I'm completely wrong and it
never gets past the first reading, all that happens is
that we produce the idea that each New Zealander has
the right to have a say about their constitutional future,
and it's an equal right. It's not something that is
the preserve of the courts, the White angu Tribune, all

(03:27):
the academics, the media, of the bureaucracy. Then we've actually
achieved something. And in the past you look at euthanasia
for example, the first bill was put up in nineteen
ninety five, got shot down in flames. No one thought
it would ever go anywhere. Twenty five, twenty four years later,
it became a loss. So you know, even if this

(03:48):
bill doesn't go all the way, the fact that people
are so opposed to it even just having the discussion
tells you we need.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
To have that to suc That's the thing that worries
me most the people that they won't even talk about
having said that. When you say what you just said,
is it dead in the sense that I see you
running this in twenty six surely this is what this
is about.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Ultimately, well, we'll see where this debate gets to. But
one thing that we certainly won't be giving up on
is the idea that each New Zealander is born free
and equal with the same basic respect and dignity due
to them. The idea that some people get to say
we're in partnership with the crown, or where tongue to

(04:28):
Fenla and your tongue or to tavs. You know. My
ultimate challenge to people who oppose this bill is, how
is this world that you want supposed to work? And
where in the world has dividing people up by their
background being a success for any society anywhere. You know,
in many ways, I'd much rather not be having this
debate and talk about regulation and education and balancing the

(04:50):
budget and how to back healthcare work with an aging population.
Love to talk about all that, but I put it
to people that it's going to be all the harder
to overcome those lengers when our underlying constitutional setting is
that we have a different role in society based on
things that happen two hundred years before the even born.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
And I appreciate your time, David see Moore, the act Party leader.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
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