Ivan Cleary is the most successful sports coach in Australia.
A former Warriors coach, Cleary has led the Penrith Panthers to victory, claiming the NRL Grand Final four times in a row.
He’s now co-authored a book all about leadership and success, detailing, as Cleary puts it, what he’s learned and how he leads.
‘Not Everything Counts but Everything Matters’ reflects on the decades he’s spent on both sides of the game, as both a player and a coach, his mental health, and the time he spent coaching the Warriors.
He told Mike Hosking that he’s enjoying every minute of the NRL success.
“I was a head coach for 14 seasons, and also played for 11, so that’s 25 years of being in the NRL before I experienced winning a premiership.”
“It’s been a long time coming.”
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And cleary, reveling in the sort of success very few
people ever experienced. Former Warrior, former coach of the Warriors,
of course, now coach of the Penrith Panthers, is the
most successful sports coach in Australia. Four Grand Final appearances,
four wins for in a row. His new book is
about leadership and achieving success. Not everything counts, but everything matters.
I've been cleary as we us. Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you, Mike. Very nice to be here so on.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
This, you know, early December morning. Where are you guys
at with your off season?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, so we're back at work preparing for the twenty
twenty five season. A lot of our players that were
in the Grand Final squad haven't come back to work here.
It's mainly just the younger guys, but they all start
sort of feeding in over the next few weeks and
just after Christmas, our whole squad will be back together.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And after you know the success you've had, after you
know these four successful, extraordinary seasons, how do you plan
season number five? Is it the same as four, three,
two and one?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
It's not exactly the same, but there's a I guess
a core way of doing things or a template I
suppose you could say of what we've found to be successful,
that we try to steactive, that we're trying to evolve
all the time as well. Each year is yea, you know,
the squads slightly different circumstances, a little different. But I
(01:20):
guess that's the hardest thing is trying to find the
balance between evolving and also staying truly. You know, you know,
what do you believe in and what it's.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Worked is for and winning leading to winning old saying,
but do you believe that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, I guess there's the danger of
living in the past that you know, because you don't
want to do that. You can certainly learn from it,
and I think the belief that you get from it
is probably the most important thing because that can't be faked.
You know, the other think you can do it or
you can't in many respects. So it's a been like
(01:54):
compound interest in many ways. You know, the system that
we have all the more you do it, the more
the players feel, the better a customer they are to it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So I think, so, yeah, are you enjoying it the
way you thought you would?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yes, I absolutely love it. I mean, to those who
don't know I was a head coach for fourteen seasons
until and also played for eleven, so that's twenty five
years of being in the NRL before I experienced winning
a premiership. So there's a long time coming and I'm
(02:28):
enjoying every minute of it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And what do you reckon the magic is? I mean,
have you actually got a recipe for it or not?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
There's no magic. But I think alignment is a key word.
So that usually comes from you know, everyone being on
the same page. You've heard it before, rowing in the
same direction. So the culture of the organ organization I
think is really important and that everyone I understand it
(02:54):
and be find it's fairly easy to you know, I
guess to live up to. So that's probably been the
main thing, just this alignment. Everyone's moving in the same direction.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
And what are the learnings? I mean, I refer to
your time maybe at the at the Warriors. I mean,
are you as good a coach now a better coach
now you experience the good days and the bad days?
I mean, how does it all work out? And what
role does luck play in that?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, it's definitely got a players part for sure, but yeah,
you also got to make your own life. Of course,
there's a lot of things that go into it. You know,
sometimes it's just the right group with the right the
right coach, just the right fit. There's so many things
to go in. But it definitely like plays as part,
I believe, But you know, I also think you've got
(03:39):
to put position yourself, sorry, to be in the right
position to actually perceive the luck when it gets handed out.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And do you look back on your time at the
Warriors in terms of, you know, what could have been
a review moved on and that was so long ago
it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And I always remember my memories of my time at
the Warriors of they gave me my initial shot at
Bernie head Case when I was pretty young and I
took a chance on then. I'll forever be am better
to them for that. I think I am a better
case than I was back then. You mentioned the word
experience just you know, as I'd saying, as you can't
(04:15):
buy it. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot,
you know. I certainly did some things then that I
know would do differently now. But it's sort of helped
me on my journey. I just think there's still so
much potential in that club and looking forward to, yeah,
(04:35):
seeing them prosper, which I'm you know, I'm really confident
that they will.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So I'm glad to hear that, because I mean, I've
been following them now for twenty six, twenty seven years,
whatever it is, I'm actually still waiting for them to prosper.
I mean, obviously we had a good couple of years,
but on paper, here's the thing. On paper, and last
year is probably as good as an example as any
On paper. They look like they can do well. They
seem to have a great coach, and yet it doesn't happen.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Why But yeah, I can't give you an exact answer.
Certainly agree with you. I'm the coach. I think Andrews
that fortunate enough to work within for a few years,
and tremendous person and a great coach. The squad is healthy.
I think the year before was probably setting them up
(05:24):
a little, probably before they may have been ready. Such
a great season in twenty three well, probably went as
far off as everyone may think. Last year I don't think.
And there's not much in it in the NL I honestly,
it's such a tight tire competition, the rigors of travel,
although it's never going to go away is far and
(05:44):
above what anyone else has to do in the NRL,
so that's always going to be potentially an issue. But yeah,
I think I'll be surprised if they don't have a
much better season this year.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, I hope you're right. Listen, what about recruiting and
how you handle this? Talk about that for a moment.
So again reference to the Warrior has got a feeder system.
So is that the way to work? You know, you
get your young kids, bring them through that system or
do you just go out with the checkbook and you know,
buy your talent.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Well, it depends on what your mandate is at the club.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
You're that.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
We're quite similar here at the Panthers to to the Warriors,
where we are development clubs. So it's much it's much
easier for us to develop our own here as opposed
to going and you know, buying everyone from elsewhere, which
other clubs like the Roosters, because they just don't have
the the nursery and they just don't have the you know,
(06:38):
the numbers. I guess that's what they have to do.
So we we look to develop our own. So a
year on year, we're just trying to improve our pathway
system as best we can, so we get players you
know that are already and are already when they come
into our system as we can. So that's that's that's
something that's worked quite well for us Worrias and they
(07:00):
are doing something similar and it's the club's always are
successful like here when we're getting that right.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And what's your experience towards dealing with young people, you know,
guys that look at like a team like the Panthers
and think well, I can be famous, I can be
the best in the business, bringing them through in a
way that they're you know, decent human beings, great athletes.
They want to perform well for a site as opposed
to losing their head and exploding.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, it gets a little bit like parenting. I think
it is in many ways. Actually, you know, there's a
lot of hard work to be done in any kind
of life. You know, we all know this. To want
to get to where you want to get to it
be successful because just you know, it's important to have goals,
but it's just really a daily exercises. But every little
(07:45):
thing you do matters, you know, on and off the field.
So you know, we try to definitely chieve them grounded,
but just got through a lot of detail, whether it's
on and off the field, and just be super consistent
with it. And then before we know it, some of
those goals that you've written down are starting to get
kicked off.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
And what about you know, the level of performance you
guys operate at nowadays, and whether that affects the game,
whether it lifts the game generally, because one of the
problems around the league, of course, is every now and again,
on a mad Monday, a team or a series of
players go crazy, and that hurts the reputation of the
whole sport.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, I'm not sure. I think I think the game
as a whole has grown up a little bit, and
players in that sense. I think everyone's attle bit more
aware of the dangers out there, particularly with our society
of technology and phones and CCT vision fort everywhere. I think, yeah,
I think responsibilities are much higher. I think the boys
(08:47):
sort of understand that a lot more these days. So
I don't know if we're helping, but you know, we
certainly pride ourselves on not just performing on the field,
but performing offered as well.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
The depression you talk about in the book one was
that difficult for you to do, and too, did it
surprise a lot of people that a person with your
level of success suffered those sort of difficulties.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think it did. I certainly got a lot of
feedback from it. I think that's part of the reason
I did it is that, you know, I've certainly found that,
you know, stick in the last few years, I've just
been sort of privatable finding out a lot of things
about people that it's just it's out there a lot,
but no one us men don't really like talking about it.
(09:30):
So I thought it was a good opportunity to, you know,
someone who's had some success sort of you know, it's
not it's not all beer and skittles. And I think
the more we talk about it and sort of almost
normalize it or certainly destigmatize it, I think is important
because it's a silent it's a bit of a silent thing.
You generally don't see it, and us as guys are
(09:52):
pretty good at disguising it. So that's that's really what
I will. You know, while I've brought it up and
wanted to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Now, what about the longevity of coaches once you reach
as you have a certain level of success do you think,
and I said, I don't know. Bill Belichick, Alex Ferguson,
do you reckon you should be able to stay on
as long as you like.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, that's a really good question, and I don't really
know the answer. You know, I've been here two times,
but the second time back is I'm going into my
seventh season. So at the moment, I'm just I'm just
really focused on, you know, one season, one campaign, you know,
(10:31):
one pre season at a time, and I guess time
will tell. I'm not looking too far into the future.
The club has spoken to me about that, but I'm not.
At the moment, I'm I'm just happy with I've got
three years to go on my current contract, so that's
that's plenty as far as you know, where I am
now on my license and really enjoying it and just
want to stay stay on a you know, I guess
(10:52):
president if you like, and just keep trying to get
this team performing.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
How well, how do you start that, by the way,
because you so this year obviously, I don't know, it's
playoffs preferably top four, and we'll go from there. Or
do you not look that far ahead?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Now? I always try to start with the end in mind. Mike.
I think that's that's been an important sort of chain
to shift in the way we look at things. So
you know, we we want to finish with the trophy,
that's what we want. And then once we've sort of
settled on that, then we you know, we basically don't
talk about it again sort of how we work. But
(11:28):
I think it's important to really be really clear on
where you want to get to. And I think you know,
we know that we're capable, which is as I said earlier,
it's that's an important belief to have to know that
you are one capable of dood doing it, and then
it's really just working and making sure we you know,
we get as close as our capabilities as we can.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Good stuff. Well, listen, I wish you all the very
very best for the coming season. Look forward to meeting you.
I say that lightly, of course, with the worries. Iban Cleary,
not everything counts, but everything matters. Ivan Cleary out of
Sydney this morning. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to News Talks at b from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
And cleary, reveling in the sort of success very few
people ever experienced. Former Warrior, former coach of the Warriors,
of course, now coach of the Penrith Panthers, is the
most successful sports coach in Australia. Four Grand Final appearances,
four wins for in a row. His new book is
about leadership and achieving success. Not everything counts, but everything matters.
I've been cleary as we us. Morning.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Thank you, Mike. Very nice to be here so on.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
This, you know, early December morning. Where are you guys
at with your off season?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yeah, so we're back at work preparing for the twenty
twenty five season. A lot of our players that were
in the Grand Final squad haven't come back to work here.
It's mainly just the younger guys, but they all start
sort of feeding in over the next few weeks and
just after Christmas, our whole squad will be back together.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And after you know the success you've had, after you
know these four successful, extraordinary seasons, how do you plan
season number five? Is it the same as four, three,
two and one?
Speaker 2 (00:58):
It's not exactly the same, but there's a I guess
a core way of doing things or a template I
suppose you could say of what we've found to be successful,
that we try to steactive, that we're trying to evolve
all the time as well. Each year is yea, you know,
the squads slightly different circumstances, a little different. But I
(01:20):
guess that's the hardest thing is trying to find the
balance between evolving and also staying truly. You know, you know,
what do you believe in and what it's.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Worked is for and winning leading to winning old saying,
but do you believe that?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Absolutely? Yeah. I mean, I guess there's the danger of
living in the past that you know, because you don't
want to do that. You can certainly learn from it,
and I think the belief that you get from it
is probably the most important thing because that can't be faked.
You know, the other think you can do it or
you can't in many respects. So it's a been like
(01:54):
compound interest in many ways. You know, the system that
we have all the more you do it, the more
the players feel, the better a customer they are to it.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
So I think, so, yeah, are you enjoying it the
way you thought you would?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yes, I absolutely love it. I mean, to those who
don't know I was a head coach for fourteen seasons
until and also played for eleven, so that's twenty five
years of being in the NRL before I experienced winning
a premiership. So there's a long time coming and I'm
(02:28):
enjoying every minute of it.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And what do you reckon the magic is? I mean,
have you actually got a recipe for it or not?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
There's no magic. But I think alignment is a key word.
So that usually comes from you know, everyone being on
the same page. You've heard it before, rowing in the
same direction. So the culture of the organ organization I
think is really important and that everyone I understand it
(02:54):
and be find it's fairly easy to you know, I
guess to live up to. So that's probably been the
main thing, just this alignment. Everyone's moving in the same direction.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
And what are the learnings? I mean, I refer to
your time maybe at the at the Warriors. I mean,
are you as good a coach now a better coach
now you experience the good days and the bad days?
I mean, how does it all work out? And what
role does luck play in that?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Well, it's definitely got a players part for sure, but yeah,
you also got to make your own life. Of course,
there's a lot of things that go into it. You know,
sometimes it's just the right group with the right the
right coach, just the right fit. There's so many things
to go in. But it definitely like plays as part,
I believe, But you know, I also think you've got
(03:39):
to put position yourself, sorry, to be in the right
position to actually perceive the luck when it gets handed out.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And do you look back on your time at the
Warriors in terms of, you know, what could have been
a review moved on and that was so long ago
it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And I always remember my memories of my time at
the Warriors of they gave me my initial shot at
Bernie head Case when I was pretty young and I
took a chance on then. I'll forever be am better
to them for that. I think I am a better
case than I was back then. You mentioned the word
experience just you know, as I'd saying, as you can't
(04:15):
buy it. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot,
you know. I certainly did some things then that I
know would do differently now. But it's sort of helped
me on my journey. I just think there's still so
much potential in that club and looking forward to, yeah,
(04:35):
seeing them prosper, which I'm you know, I'm really confident
that they will.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So I'm glad to hear that, because I mean, I've
been following them now for twenty six, twenty seven years,
whatever it is, I'm actually still waiting for them to prosper.
I mean, obviously we had a good couple of years,
but on paper, here's the thing. On paper, and last
year is probably as good as an example as any
On paper. They look like they can do well. They
seem to have a great coach, and yet it doesn't happen.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Why But yeah, I can't give you an exact answer.
Certainly agree with you. I'm the coach. I think Andrews
that fortunate enough to work within for a few years,
and tremendous person and a great coach. The squad is healthy.
I think the year before was probably setting them up
(05:24):
a little, probably before they may have been ready. Such
a great season in twenty three well, probably went as
far off as everyone may think. Last year I don't think.
And there's not much in it in the NL I honestly,
it's such a tight tire competition, the rigors of travel,
although it's never going to go away is far and
(05:44):
above what anyone else has to do in the NRL,
so that's always going to be potentially an issue. But yeah,
I think I'll be surprised if they don't have a
much better season this year.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, I hope you're right. Listen, what about recruiting and
how you handle this? Talk about that for a moment.
So again reference to the Warrior has got a feeder system.
So is that the way to work? You know, you
get your young kids, bring them through that system or
do you just go out with the checkbook and you know,
buy your talent.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Well, it depends on what your mandate is at the club.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
You're that.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
We're quite similar here at the Panthers to to the Warriors,
where we are development clubs. So it's much it's much
easier for us to develop our own here as opposed
to going and you know, buying everyone from elsewhere, which
other clubs like the Roosters, because they just don't have
the the nursery and they just don't have the you know,
(06:38):
the numbers. I guess that's what they have to do.
So we we look to develop our own. So a
year on year, we're just trying to improve our pathway
system as best we can, so we get players you
know that are already and are already when they come
into our system as we can. So that's that's that's
something that's worked quite well for us Worrias and they
(07:00):
are doing something similar and it's the club's always are
successful like here when we're getting that right.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
And what's your experience towards dealing with young people, you know,
guys that look at like a team like the Panthers
and think well, I can be famous, I can be
the best in the business, bringing them through in a
way that they're you know, decent human beings, great athletes.
They want to perform well for a site as opposed
to losing their head and exploding.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, it gets a little bit like parenting. I think
it is in many ways. Actually, you know, there's a
lot of hard work to be done in any kind
of life. You know, we all know this. To want
to get to where you want to get to it
be successful because just you know, it's important to have goals,
but it's just really a daily exercises. But every little
(07:45):
thing you do matters, you know, on and off the field.
So you know, we try to definitely chieve them grounded,
but just got through a lot of detail, whether it's
on and off the field, and just be super consistent
with it. And then before we know it, some of
those goals that you've written down are starting to get
kicked off.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
And what about you know, the level of performance you
guys operate at nowadays, and whether that affects the game,
whether it lifts the game generally, because one of the
problems around the league, of course, is every now and again,
on a mad Monday, a team or a series of
players go crazy, and that hurts the reputation of the
whole sport.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, I'm not sure. I think I think the game
as a whole has grown up a little bit, and
players in that sense. I think everyone's attle bit more
aware of the dangers out there, particularly with our society
of technology and phones and CCT vision fort everywhere. I think, yeah,
I think responsibilities are much higher. I think the boys
(08:47):
sort of understand that a lot more these days. So
I don't know if we're helping, but you know, we
certainly pride ourselves on not just performing on the field,
but performing offered as well.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
The depression you talk about in the book one was
that difficult for you to do, and too, did it
surprise a lot of people that a person with your
level of success suffered those sort of difficulties.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think it did. I certainly got a lot of
feedback from it. I think that's part of the reason
I did it is that, you know, I've certainly found that,
you know, stick in the last few years, I've just
been sort of privatable finding out a lot of things
about people that it's just it's out there a lot,
but no one us men don't really like talking about it.
(09:30):
So I thought it was a good opportunity to, you know,
someone who's had some success sort of you know, it's
not it's not all beer and skittles. And I think
the more we talk about it and sort of almost
normalize it or certainly destigmatize it, I think is important
because it's a silent it's a bit of a silent thing.
You generally don't see it, and us as guys are
(09:52):
pretty good at disguising it. So that's that's really what
I will. You know, while I've brought it up and
wanted to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Now, what about the longevity of coaches once you reach
as you have a certain level of success do you think,
and I said, I don't know. Bill Belichick, Alex Ferguson,
do you reckon you should be able to stay on
as long as you like.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah, that's a really good question, and I don't really
know the answer. You know, I've been here two times,
but the second time back is I'm going into my
seventh season. So at the moment, I'm just I'm just
really focused on, you know, one season, one campaign, you know,
(10:31):
one pre season at a time, and I guess time
will tell. I'm not looking too far into the future.
The club has spoken to me about that, but I'm not.
At the moment, I'm I'm just happy with I've got
three years to go on my current contract, so that's
that's plenty as far as you know, where I am
now on my license and really enjoying it and just
want to stay stay on a you know, I guess
(10:52):
president if you like, and just keep trying to get
this team performing.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
How well, how do you start that, by the way,
because you so this year obviously, I don't know, it's
playoffs preferably top four, and we'll go from there. Or
do you not look that far ahead?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Now? I always try to start with the end in mind. Mike.
I think that's that's been an important sort of chain
to shift in the way we look at things. So
you know, we we want to finish with the trophy,
that's what we want. And then once we've sort of
settled on that, then we you know, we basically don't
talk about it again sort of how we work. But
(11:28):
I think it's important to really be really clear on
where you want to get to. And I think you know,
we know that we're capable, which is as I said earlier,
it's that's an important belief to have to know that
you are one capable of dood doing it, and then
it's really just working and making sure we you know,
we get as close as our capabilities as we can.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Good stuff. Well, listen, I wish you all the very
very best for the coming season. Look forward to meeting you.
I say that lightly, of course, with the worries. Iban Cleary,
not everything counts, but everything matters. Ivan Cleary out of
Sydney this morning. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to News Talks at b from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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