December 16, 2024 • 9 mins
The Prime Minister's defending the Government effectively delaying a Cook Strait ferry decision.
Christopher Luxon appears to have let slip the Government's signed off two rail-compatible ferries, unless a better proposal is on the table within the next few months.
He told Heather du Plessis-Allan the ferries need to be replaced in 2029, meaning the procurement decision doesn't need to be made by the end of March.
Luxon says they have a proposal for two rail-compatible ferries as a default.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
With us as the Prime minister. Chris lux and good morning, Chris.
Are you there, Chris?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I am. Can you hear me?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kremlin's in the system, not your faults, so don't worry
about it. Yes, I can hear you. Hey, listen, I
got a text. I got a text from somebody yesterday
to say that I have been giving Eric a stan
for too much credit. And the phone in school's band
was actually your idea?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Was it?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Well?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
We both were very passionate about it. Yeah, I was
very passionate about it. I'd seen it in other parts
of the world, and we'd seen the advice actually from
school who already had it. But yeah, no, soon we
both joined. We both put that forward and we got
that through, which is great, and we got it done
fast because I raised it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Actually did you care so much about it?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Well, because it's I mean basically principals, teachers, parents, kids
filed out of control about it. The reality was at
the massive distraction in the classroom. We've got serious issues
around literacy and numeracy, as we've talked before, in school attendance.
Those are the three things we've got to focus on
back to basics. And it's been cool because actually, yes,
we took a bit of grief from the media in
the beginning and the opposition. But the point is the
(00:56):
principles are saying, rugby balls are going through windows again,
kids are actually talking to each other, cyber bullying is down,
and kids are less distracted. So all of that's a
good thing. And it's funny how even kids today will
come up to me and say, no, that's been a
good thing promised. So Nana, I'm on board with that.
That's okay, and so it's been good. So that's a
common sense, you know, a solution to a very common
(01:17):
problem that we've been.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Having some and a very big problem. And make sure
that I give you some of the credit next time
I give her credit for it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, I don't know you were a Norwegian wine expert.
I just heard it coming into your show. So I
was thinking talking about all the big issues of the day.
You say to know a lot about.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Norwegian some randomness, great worry and you know what it is,
Chris subject Well, what it is, Chris, is that when
you can't have something because you're heavily pregnant, you just
get really obsessed with it. Do you know what I mean?
It's one of those fomo, that's what I've got. At
the minute.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You knew the type of grapes and everything, it was
quite something.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well, thank you. Hey, So the high food today, should
we expect that you guys are going to push the
surplus out by another year?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah. Look, I'm not going to prempt the actual announcement
that's coming, but no surprises to anyone listening that. You know,
times are tough and we've had a we've inherited very
challenging economics. Look, we've got a choice, which as we
could continue carrying on spending as the last lot did,
which was tax spend and borrow more and massive debt
that we've got to deal with and interest payments around that,
(02:14):
or alternatively, we can throw the economy into really hard
austerity and that wouldn't be good either. I think we've
found the right balance, which is that actually we can
do get the front line right, get more value for
money out of the public service. We got to continue
that work for sure. That's not a one off. That
is daily practice here. We have to do that. We've
been able to get people tax relief and we're be
able to make some of those investments around the future.
(02:35):
But sometimes people say, well, why can't you just go
spend four billion dollars on fairies or three billion on
Dunedin Hospital. Those are tough choices, and the reason is
that we need to have financial discipline in place because
how it manifests itself is with more in bigger debt,
which we just can't have. And ultimately, I think heither.
The stuff that you and I've talked about in the
past is for the last thirty years, this country's had
(02:57):
what we call an economic productivity disease. By how hard
we work with some of the hardest working people on earth,
we haven't been able to generate higher incomes that actually
transform the quality of our life. So you know, we
need to invest in the long term pieces around education
and science and infrastritally.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
But you can cut harder than you are.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, we're going to continue the pressure. But you know,
I think we found I think we're finding the balance
and you can kind of see that those settings are
leading to inflation and interest rate and text.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Can we really say it's a balance, Chris, If you
still have more public servants working for us right now
than we had pre COVID.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well there's more to do. That's what I'm saying. We're
going to continue that. I mean, you see us work
within the next few years. We've talked about very very
tight operating allowances which we're committed to working within, and
that will mean that we have to drive and extract
more value for money without to.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Don Then why not just do it all in one go.
I mean, if you know that you're going to have
to cut harder, why drag it out and why it
right now?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well we are, We're going to continue to push hard
and that's been the message immediately the day after budget
twenty four this year was exactly that message to my
ministers and to the public services. This is how we're
going to continue to roll. We're going to be relentless
about making sure we get value for money, a return
on that investment. That has to happen. And so yes,
you're right, there's more to do, but where we know
that and that's how we are rolling through.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Think about it. I mean, nobody, nobody if you know that.
If you if you're running a household budget and you
know that you're getting into trouble with the credit card,
you don't cut. You don't cut a little bit, little
bit little bit, little bit, you go hard and you
just cut all the big expenses. Why ain't you guys
taking a similar approach.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, hard austerity actually has a whole bunch of other implication.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It's not hard austerity, Chris, because if you're just taking
us back to pre COVID public servant levels, that's not austerity.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well that may well be where we get too, but
the point is that we are working our way through that,
and we're doing that in a sensible kind of way
as we just you know, as we think about your
message very clearly to cease has been make sure all
the programs that you've got going on, all the funding
that you've got going on. And I can tell you
you know, there's an awful lot of providers, there's an
awful lot of money going out the door, a lot
(04:59):
of it gets lost bureaucracy. We're expecting massive amounts of efficiency.
We've had all the government agencies go through what we
call performance plans just in the last couple of months,
because that is actually helping those sees to really focus
on what we're asking them to deliver. That's why the
goals are there, That's why the cord action plans are
there because we want them to be focused on the
things that matter the most. And there's a lot of
(05:20):
stuff that's been going on, a lot of bureaucracy that's
built up that we've got to take out of the
system and so and liberate it and make it simpler.
We have a terrible habit in this country of complexing
things and making things very duplicate. If you've heard us
talk about councils yesterday, well the reason is councils and
local government are doing some of the same stuff, and
they should be complementary and working together doing the respective
(05:43):
roles that they have, not counsels trying to do the
work of central government and voice vice versa.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Listen on the fairies, Were you guys ready to sign
a contract for some new fairies in October?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, we've I mean on fairies. I saw your reporting
on that over the end of last week. But what
I'd say is it's really important we get this one rise.
You can't funfold it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
No, I know, and I want you to. But we're
signed a contract in October?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well we've got We don't need to because if you
work backwards, the theories need to be replaced in twenty
twenty nine. We actually don't need to make a decision
on the procurement of that to the end of March
I think it is, or your end of March. And
as a result, what we've got is we've delivered a
really good option. You've got a value for money option exactly.
That's we just talked about, safe, reliable, resilient, two rail
(06:26):
compatible theories. Now, all we're saying is between now and
the next three or four months, we've got some time.
We've got a window if that proposal can be improved
upon and deliver more value for money and give us
a better solution than fantastic. But if it can't, we
go with the chief composition that we're.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
So you have got a proposal ready to go, have you?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
We have yeah, two rail compatible theories. That's what we're saying.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Who are you signed with?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well, that's we know we can procure these theories, but
we don't need to do that.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Is that from staying it?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I won't I want to talk about who it is
because that's all commercial and we'll let that run through.
But all I'm just saying is we've got a proposal,
which is two rail compatible fairies exactly as we have
today on the mix, but fairies that are right size,
fit for purpose, good value for money.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And if you want us, said to Winston, is that
as new Minister Rail, you've got till you know, you
got three months or so to actually see whether you
can improve further on that proposal. If not, that's what
we're going with.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
And if you went with them, when they arrive.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
They'll be here before twenty twenty nine, which is when
we need to replace.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Them, okay. And are they going to cost nine hundred
million dollars together?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, we're not going to talk about any costs given
those commercial sensitivities, and those are decisions.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So this is because this is the original story that
we'd heard, which Winston then denied was true, that Nicola
had actually struck a deal for two fairies, and then
Winston decided no, he wanted the opportunity to try and
see if he could better it that actually happened.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, no, we if you just work backwards from a
timeline point of view, right, the fairies need to be
replaced in twenty twenty nine, the procurement decision needs to
be ultimately made. Is fine to be made at the
end of March or early April or whatever it is.
And the reality is we've got a great proposal which
we've built up with the Minister of Advisory Group with
conversations with the sector. We've come back with two rail
(08:12):
compatible ferries. So that's our default leed scenario right, And
all I've said to Winston is a new Minister of
Rail and Fairness taking on a new portfolio which I
actually want some dedicated management a of the faery procurement process,
which is why we put it into a schedule for company.
And secondly, I'm unhappy with the performance of Kiwi Rail
in general. That actually given he's got to the end
(08:32):
of that period of time to actually see whether you
can improve on that solution. Okay, Chris, just being pragmatic
about it.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
No, yep, it's not the story he told us. But
I'm going to go with your story because I prefer it.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Actually, well that is the story.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Just so what are you doing for summer?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Look, hopefull you're getting into the T shirt and shorts.
And I haven't seen some of my family and friends
for a while, so it's just a great chance to
sort of catch up with everybody. And I hope you
get in a little boat and go fishing with Amanda
and maybe the kids and Olivia, my daughter is coming
in from overseas, which would be awesome to hang out
with her for a little bit too. So just doing
what I think everyone does, which is just refreshing, refueling.
(09:10):
And to all your listeners, I hope they do exactly
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, absolutely as much done as possible. Hey go well,
enjoy yourself, Merry Christmas and we'll see you on the
other side of the year. That's Chris Luson the Prime Minister.
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
With us as the Prime minister. Chris lux and good morning, Chris.
Are you there, Chris?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I am. Can you hear me?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kremlin's in the system, not your faults, so don't worry
about it. Yes, I can hear you. Hey, listen, I
got a text. I got a text from somebody yesterday
to say that I have been giving Eric a stan
for too much credit. And the phone in school's band
was actually your idea?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Was it?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Well?
Speaker 2 (00:18):
We both were very passionate about it. Yeah, I was
very passionate about it. I'd seen it in other parts
of the world, and we'd seen the advice actually from
school who already had it. But yeah, no, soon we
both joined. We both put that forward and we got
that through, which is great, and we got it done
fast because I raised it.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Actually did you care so much about it?
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Well, because it's I mean basically principals, teachers, parents, kids
filed out of control about it. The reality was at
the massive distraction in the classroom. We've got serious issues
around literacy and numeracy, as we've talked before, in school attendance.
Those are the three things we've got to focus on
back to basics. And it's been cool because actually, yes,
we took a bit of grief from the media in
the beginning and the opposition. But the point is the
(00:56):
principles are saying, rugby balls are going through windows again,
kids are actually talking to each other, cyber bullying is down,
and kids are less distracted. So all of that's a
good thing. And it's funny how even kids today will
come up to me and say, no, that's been a
good thing promised. So Nana, I'm on board with that.
That's okay, and so it's been good. So that's a
common sense, you know, a solution to a very common
(01:17):
problem that we've been.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Having some and a very big problem. And make sure
that I give you some of the credit next time
I give her credit for it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, I don't know you were a Norwegian wine expert.
I just heard it coming into your show. So I
was thinking talking about all the big issues of the day.
You say to know a lot about.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Norwegian some randomness, great worry and you know what it is,
Chris subject Well, what it is, Chris, is that when
you can't have something because you're heavily pregnant, you just
get really obsessed with it. Do you know what I mean?
It's one of those fomo, that's what I've got. At
the minute.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You knew the type of grapes and everything, it was
quite something.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Well, thank you. Hey, So the high food today, should
we expect that you guys are going to push the
surplus out by another year?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah. Look, I'm not going to prempt the actual announcement
that's coming, but no surprises to anyone listening that. You know,
times are tough and we've had a we've inherited very
challenging economics. Look, we've got a choice, which as we
could continue carrying on spending as the last lot did,
which was tax spend and borrow more and massive debt
that we've got to deal with and interest payments around that,
(02:14):
or alternatively, we can throw the economy into really hard
austerity and that wouldn't be good either. I think we've
found the right balance, which is that actually we can
do get the front line right, get more value for
money out of the public service. We got to continue
that work for sure. That's not a one off. That
is daily practice here. We have to do that. We've
been able to get people tax relief and we're be
able to make some of those investments around the future.
(02:35):
But sometimes people say, well, why can't you just go
spend four billion dollars on fairies or three billion on
Dunedin Hospital. Those are tough choices, and the reason is
that we need to have financial discipline in place because
how it manifests itself is with more in bigger debt,
which we just can't have. And ultimately, I think heither.
The stuff that you and I've talked about in the
past is for the last thirty years, this country's had
(02:57):
what we call an economic productivity disease. By how hard
we work with some of the hardest working people on earth,
we haven't been able to generate higher incomes that actually
transform the quality of our life. So you know, we
need to invest in the long term pieces around education
and science and infrastritally.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
But you can cut harder than you are.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Well, we're going to continue the pressure. But you know,
I think we found I think we're finding the balance
and you can kind of see that those settings are
leading to inflation and interest rate and text.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Can we really say it's a balance, Chris, If you
still have more public servants working for us right now
than we had pre COVID.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well there's more to do. That's what I'm saying. We're
going to continue that. I mean, you see us work
within the next few years. We've talked about very very
tight operating allowances which we're committed to working within, and
that will mean that we have to drive and extract
more value for money without to.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Don Then why not just do it all in one go.
I mean, if you know that you're going to have
to cut harder, why drag it out and why it
right now?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well we are, We're going to continue to push hard
and that's been the message immediately the day after budget
twenty four this year was exactly that message to my
ministers and to the public services. This is how we're
going to continue to roll. We're going to be relentless
about making sure we get value for money, a return
on that investment. That has to happen. And so yes,
you're right, there's more to do, but where we know
that and that's how we are rolling through.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Think about it. I mean, nobody, nobody if you know that.
If you if you're running a household budget and you
know that you're getting into trouble with the credit card,
you don't cut. You don't cut a little bit, little
bit little bit, little bit, you go hard and you
just cut all the big expenses. Why ain't you guys
taking a similar approach.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well, hard austerity actually has a whole bunch of other implication.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It's not hard austerity, Chris, because if you're just taking
us back to pre COVID public servant levels, that's not austerity.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well that may well be where we get too, but
the point is that we are working our way through that,
and we're doing that in a sensible kind of way
as we just you know, as we think about your
message very clearly to cease has been make sure all
the programs that you've got going on, all the funding
that you've got going on. And I can tell you
you know, there's an awful lot of providers, there's an
awful lot of money going out the door, a lot
(04:59):
of it gets lost bureaucracy. We're expecting massive amounts of efficiency.
We've had all the government agencies go through what we
call performance plans just in the last couple of months,
because that is actually helping those sees to really focus
on what we're asking them to deliver. That's why the
goals are there, That's why the cord action plans are
there because we want them to be focused on the
things that matter the most. And there's a lot of
(05:20):
stuff that's been going on, a lot of bureaucracy that's
built up that we've got to take out of the
system and so and liberate it and make it simpler.
We have a terrible habit in this country of complexing
things and making things very duplicate. If you've heard us
talk about councils yesterday, well the reason is councils and
local government are doing some of the same stuff, and
they should be complementary and working together doing the respective
(05:43):
roles that they have, not counsels trying to do the
work of central government and voice vice versa.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Listen on the fairies, Were you guys ready to sign
a contract for some new fairies in October?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, we've I mean on fairies. I saw your reporting
on that over the end of last week. But what
I'd say is it's really important we get this one rise.
You can't funfold it.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
No, I know, and I want you to. But we're
signed a contract in October?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well we've got We don't need to because if you
work backwards, the theories need to be replaced in twenty
twenty nine. We actually don't need to make a decision
on the procurement of that to the end of March
I think it is, or your end of March. And
as a result, what we've got is we've delivered a
really good option. You've got a value for money option exactly.
That's we just talked about, safe, reliable, resilient, two rail
(06:26):
compatible theories. Now, all we're saying is between now and
the next three or four months, we've got some time.
We've got a window if that proposal can be improved
upon and deliver more value for money and give us
a better solution than fantastic. But if it can't, we
go with the chief composition that we're.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
So you have got a proposal ready to go, have you?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
We have yeah, two rail compatible theories. That's what we're saying.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Who are you signed with?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Well, that's we know we can procure these theories, but
we don't need to do that.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Is that from staying it?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
I won't I want to talk about who it is
because that's all commercial and we'll let that run through.
But all I'm just saying is we've got a proposal,
which is two rail compatible fairies exactly as we have
today on the mix, but fairies that are right size,
fit for purpose, good value for money.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And if you want us, said to Winston, is that
as new Minister Rail, you've got till you know, you
got three months or so to actually see whether you
can improve further on that proposal. If not, that's what
we're going with.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
And if you went with them, when they arrive.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
They'll be here before twenty twenty nine, which is when
we need to replace.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Them, okay. And are they going to cost nine hundred
million dollars together?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Well, we're not going to talk about any costs given
those commercial sensitivities, and those are decisions.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So this is because this is the original story that
we'd heard, which Winston then denied was true, that Nicola
had actually struck a deal for two fairies, and then
Winston decided no, he wanted the opportunity to try and
see if he could better it that actually happened.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well, no, we if you just work backwards from a
timeline point of view, right, the fairies need to be
replaced in twenty twenty nine, the procurement decision needs to
be ultimately made. Is fine to be made at the
end of March or early April or whatever it is.
And the reality is we've got a great proposal which
we've built up with the Minister of Advisory Group with
conversations with the sector. We've come back with two rail
(08:12):
compatible ferries. So that's our default leed scenario right, And
all I've said to Winston is a new Minister of
Rail and Fairness taking on a new portfolio which I
actually want some dedicated management a of the faery procurement process,
which is why we put it into a schedule for company.
And secondly, I'm unhappy with the performance of Kiwi Rail
in general. That actually given he's got to the end
(08:32):
of that period of time to actually see whether you
can improve on that solution. Okay, Chris, just being pragmatic
about it.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
No, yep, it's not the story he told us. But
I'm going to go with your story because I prefer it.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Actually, well that is the story.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Just so what are you doing for summer?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Look, hopefull you're getting into the T shirt and shorts.
And I haven't seen some of my family and friends
for a while, so it's just a great chance to
sort of catch up with everybody. And I hope you
get in a little boat and go fishing with Amanda
and maybe the kids and Olivia, my daughter is coming
in from overseas, which would be awesome to hang out
with her for a little bit too. So just doing
what I think everyone does, which is just refreshing, refueling.
(09:10):
And to all your listeners, I hope they do exactly
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, absolutely as much done as possible. Hey go well,
enjoy yourself, Merry Christmas and we'll see you on the
other side of the year. That's Chris Luson the Prime Minister.
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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