January 27, 2025 • 10 mins
Christopher Luxon's defending the Government's handling of its new stand-off with Kiribati.
New Zealand's relationship with the central Pacific Island nation appears to have reached an all-time low.
Aid to the country has been put on hold pending a review after the Kiribati President pulled out of a pre-arranged meeting with Foreign Minister Winston Peters last week.
The nation continues to form closer ties with China, and the New Zealand government is responding to the "radio silence" by suspending aid to the central Pacific island nation - aid that amounts to more than $100 million over three years.
Luxon told Mike Hosking we can't keep sending aid money into Kiribati if we don't have a relationship or dialogue with them.
He says the Government has been putting tens of millions of dollars a year into Kiribati, and it needs to be spent effectively.
When it comes to tourism, the Prime Minister is hoping the new digital nomad visa reform will boost the industry back to pre-Covid levels.
He told Hosking it’s something they talked about in opposition, but had other things on their plate to deal with first.
Luxon says the sector hasn’t bounced back, and is actually turning off growth, which is absolutely unacceptable.
The next step, he says, is to ensure New Zealand is at the top of tourists’ bucket lists and to strengthen the relations that “went cold” through Covid.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Chrystopher Lux and Prime Minister is with us. Good morning
and happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well likewise, Mike, I have you had a good break.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
We had a lovely break, Thank you very much. Louise
up who's on the program a little bit earlier on,
she didn't have a very good answer. Why are we
so slow on the digital nomad's given the whole world's
already done it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Oh look, I mean it's something that we talked about
in an opposition we want to do and we're doing
it now. I mean, we just had a lot of
other things on the plate, as you know, through the
course of last year. But there's a lot more I
think that we need to do in terms of continuing
to tweak that tourism proposition. We haven't bounced back at all.
I think we're at eighty six percent of pre COVID levels.
There's a heap of space to go for and when
(00:37):
you've got people across the country saying, oh no, we
don't want the tourist back where we're actually turning off
growth and that's just not acceptable.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
So Fiji Raratonga reported just this last week they had
record years. So people are prepared to come to this
particular part of the world, specifically about us that the
world no longer likes.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, i'll tell you what I reckon happened. We ended
up staying COVID for way too long. You have all
these tourism operators in New Zealand that deal with wholesale
operators up in Asia and around the world, and though
those relationships went cold while we shut down and weren't traveling,
and as a result, other countries stepped in. It's a
competitive market and American will have on their list the
top twenty countries they want to visit before they die,
(01:13):
and our jobs we've got to make sure at the
top of that list so they choose to come for
their next trip. So you know, really it's a function
of I think you know, the industry went to sleep
by virtue of where we were and too slow coming
out of COVID extended lockdowns, aren't able to travel, and
as a result, others jumped in and filled that space.
The proposition from New Zone is still really good, but
we've got to get our a enterg and actually get
(01:33):
out and about in the world and actually sell the proposition.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
So one hundred percent back by when what's your target.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well as fast as possible. I don't have a target on.
I want to see tourists coming into the country.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
We nuclearly as possible. What we need we need KPIs
don't we we need to live on the cap.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
We do, we do, but we need people actioning stuff
and actually doing things. And that's why as pleased having
made that say to the nation speech said tourism something
you can power up really fast as you can also
international education. To see the team then respond within a
week to say right out we can do the digital nomads.
They can get that done well and out the door
and have the system focus on getting that dot job done.
I thought was very good.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, Naru I'm reading yesterday has never been closer to
China as they mark the first anniversary of their particular association.
Winston stuck. Is he still in Kirabas The president won't
meet him, The aids on hold. How worried should we be?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, I mean, I mean we're just being really clear
to say, look, we're putting taxpayers money into Kerebas about
one and one hundred and two million from memory over
the last three years or four years, and the reality
has got to be spent effectively, Winston's done a great job.
He's met with I think fifty different counterparts across the
world that he's visits them at forty five countries or
something in the first year. And Carabas we just had
(02:40):
radio silence. So he's doing the right thing actually by
saying I'm sorry, but actually we actually want the courtesy
of some engagement with the government of Carabas. And equally,
we can't send New Zealand taxpayers money and there if
we don't have a relationship or a dialogue happening.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And so I tell you about our relationship with the Pacific.
When the president of Kirabas doesn't want to meet our
foreign minister.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, I just say to you, I think it's peculiarly Carabats,
because our relationship across the Pacific is outstanding and I've
met with most of the leaders. Winstance done the same
with the foreign ministers. Our influence and our partnership in
the Pacific, I think is very very strong.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So you're still a bullish Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, absolutely. I think if you look at how we
stepped up the relationships with Fiji and sah and tong
On just in the last twelve months, a couple with
the other countries throughout the region as well, our contributions
in the Pacific Island Forum. All that stuff is really
very strong, and I think the Pacific Partners have played
that back to us very strongly that they've appreciated. You know,
We've hosted them here in New Zealand. I've met with
(03:39):
them personally when they're traveling through with dinners and I'm
getting to know each other, and so that's been very,
very positive, and I think in general, you know, we
had literally years where we just didn't get out of
New Zealand to go do foreign affairs work, and it
wasn't a priority for the last lot. Well, gee, it's
mission critical for us because it's about defense and it's
also about growth.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
You're sick. I watched you week in your State of
the Nation speech. Sick of the comp Are you sick
of the com com or you're sick of the lack
of action or both?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Sick you of just actually the lack of competition that's
in our big sectors. And when you're so far away
from the rest of the world, you don't get other
big operators wanting to operate in there. So it means
that your domestic sectors have to even be more competitive.
And when you go across the piece, whether it's frankly
banking as we've started to talk about last year, whether
it's energy, retailers, groceries, we actually have to seriously have
(04:28):
a proper converse, not a conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
We have to do something about competition. This is my
criticism of you, is that you're too much yack, not
enough do. If you don't like what the Commerce Commissioner
is doing, you just all fight up because of Trump's
executive orders. But that's what you need, exactly what you
need to executive orders. You need to get a bloody
market pen and start scratching out a few signatures and stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And the difference between a presidential system and a parliamentary
system that's quite profound in that regard. But if you look.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Most governments, you and I a the same things. But
what I'm watching here is a Commerce commission that's been
looking at petrol and supermarkets and building products and everything
else for your studies that nothing's happening.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, so we know what the problem is, but no
one ever pulls the trigger to say that's the action
that needs to take place. Off the back of that study, right,
So that's what we've got to do this year. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So when you talk about competition in retail, who specifically
you're worried about.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Well, I think we look at the grocery supermarket outlets.
We you know, we've obviously spoken before about the energy
pieces and there's some work going on around that right now.
I'm also very fixated on the banks. If I'm really
honest with you, I.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Think banks this year specifically, well.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Again, we're going to make sure, as we said, get
k K our banks sort of fired up and capitalize
in a way that actually can take on those banks.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
When you're going to do there's a whole bunch of
laws rate we.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Can change around what's called open banking because actually the
banks have been running that, whereas other countries that's run
by others, so the banks don't unincentivized to innovate or
do anything very different.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So kanks, you're a big thing.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Well, it's it's one of the things we can do
to make sure that we get banking more competitive. And
we're going to do that though, well, we're working. As
I said, we talked about that at the end of
last year. We've got to go through a process of
just making sure we can work up with the best
way to raise that five hundred million dollars in capital
that we want to put in there. That five hundred
million dollars will lead to billions of dollars of extra
investment to loan lending to businesses but also to consumers
(06:21):
as well, and so it's just working our way through that.
We're going to do that as quickly as we possibly can.
But I think there's other things Mark like that we
can do around sort of some of the regulations around
banks and making sure that they are, you know, as
competitive and as that we make it as easy as possible.
If you talk about the margins that exist in banking
and New Zealand relative to other parts.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Of the world, that's kind of a lot of sense.
We'll talk about this is this is my frustration. My
frustration with you is I think you're you're well intentioned,
but you're running out of time. Yeah, it's twenty twenty
five now, and you've spent all of last year talking
about this and thinking about that and passing a bit
of legislation. All of that's fantastic. Just agree well all
(07:00):
you want, but you're the one facing the voters in
twenty six not me right, and you're going to run
out a runway if you don't actually start kicking some
mass and getting this country moving.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, I would just say to you, I think the
way we actually dealt with government's been need to get
inflation down, to get interest rates down, to get business
confidence and consumer confidence at good levels, is fantastic. I'm
just signaling, as I did in my State of the
Nation speech last year was break the back of cost
of living. This year is all about growth, growth, growth,
So I think when you look at what we did
on fast Track, you think about RMA reform, where we've
bleeded on about it for eighteen years. It was supposed
(07:32):
to be a horse turned into a camera with endless
amendments and a whole industry around it. To go introduce
fast Track in the way that we are to talk
about changing the whole of the RMA system and getting
that moving this year is actually a major, major, There's
a lot of focus going on. So just I hear
what you're saying, and I know the frustration. If you're frustrated,
just meagine how frustrated I am about the speed of
things that happen here in Wellington. But I'm doing everything
(07:52):
we can with the team, as you saw even yesterday
on digital nomad visas within a whek.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
But you were late. You were a year of not
two years late on that. That's a stroke of a
pen decisions. Think of it Monday, Do it Tuesday. Not
come back a year after you've been in office and go,
oh it's what we've thought of.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Oh, you've come back from holiday, fired up my cost?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Gagal Well, someone's going to point a few things out,
don't they Look my road, the road north of Auckland. Right,
here's your new health minister. So one of the best
pieces of road in this country is State Highway one,
as commissioned by Stephen Joyce. That was going to one
hundred and twenty k's how fast was I traveling over
the holiday? Is one hundred? He announced it last year.
Why hasn't it changed the road cones around Auckland. Have
(08:32):
a look at the road cones around Auckland at the moment.
There's only millions of them. Why hasn't it changed? Sime
and Brown announced that would change. Hasn't changed? Why not?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well I will get onto it. The sweep month to.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Get onto it because I asked it. I mean, when
you announce something, actually do it.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yep. But there's a whole bunch of pilava that goes
with as you know, around speed limits, for example. We
have worked as quickly as we can. But you have
regional you have local government, you have regional government, you
have central government. Is a whole bunch pilava and all that.
We're trying to strip all of that out. I think
we're over governed. We've got way too many people in
the mix of everything, and so we're working our way
through that. And I think you'll see that very shortly.
(09:10):
So hang fire, I know, okay, did you.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I'm here all years, so you're going to get this
all Yearde and Joyce's peace in the Herald.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I haven't actually you get on to when you're.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Arranging the deck chairs. He's not a fan of what
you did with the science thing last week. He thinks
that's a mistake. You would disagree with them, presumably, Yeah, yeah, do.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Because Callahan was set up years ago to do the
innovation work in commercialization work, it didn't deliver for a
number of reasons. We've got four now, very focused Crown
Research institutes which needed to happen, and they need to
be powered up to be commercialized. If you go to Israel,
if you go to Ireland, you go to Denmark, academics
get to actually participate and become multimillionaires because of their
(09:48):
innovations that they then end up turning into great companies.
And so we want to make sure the money that
we spend in the R and D system, Frankly, it's
been going all over the place. It needs to go
just purely into things that make them. We go quackert
and those fourth focused institutes. The removal of Callahan will
actually give us the beginnings of what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Good stuff catch up next Tuesday, Appreciate of Crime Christopher
Luxen That article, by the way out of Saturday's Herald
Government Science Plan is like rearranging the dick chairs. Good read,
because he was heavily involved in the process, of course,
when he was in government. For more from the Mic
Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks. It'd be from
six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Chrystopher Lux and Prime Minister is with us. Good morning
and happy New Year.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Well likewise, Mike, I have you had a good break.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
We had a lovely break, Thank you very much. Louise
up who's on the program a little bit earlier on,
she didn't have a very good answer. Why are we
so slow on the digital nomad's given the whole world's
already done it.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Oh look, I mean it's something that we talked about
in an opposition we want to do and we're doing
it now. I mean, we just had a lot of
other things on the plate, as you know, through the
course of last year. But there's a lot more I
think that we need to do in terms of continuing
to tweak that tourism proposition. We haven't bounced back at all.
I think we're at eighty six percent of pre COVID levels.
There's a heap of space to go for and when
(00:37):
you've got people across the country saying, oh no, we
don't want the tourist back where we're actually turning off
growth and that's just not acceptable.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
So Fiji Raratonga reported just this last week they had
record years. So people are prepared to come to this
particular part of the world, specifically about us that the
world no longer likes.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, i'll tell you what I reckon happened. We ended
up staying COVID for way too long. You have all
these tourism operators in New Zealand that deal with wholesale
operators up in Asia and around the world, and though
those relationships went cold while we shut down and weren't traveling,
and as a result, other countries stepped in. It's a
competitive market and American will have on their list the
top twenty countries they want to visit before they die,
(01:13):
and our jobs we've got to make sure at the
top of that list so they choose to come for
their next trip. So you know, really it's a function
of I think you know, the industry went to sleep
by virtue of where we were and too slow coming
out of COVID extended lockdowns, aren't able to travel, and
as a result, others jumped in and filled that space.
The proposition from New Zone is still really good, but
we've got to get our a enterg and actually get
(01:33):
out and about in the world and actually sell the proposition.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
So one hundred percent back by when what's your target.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well as fast as possible. I don't have a target on.
I want to see tourists coming into the country.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
We nuclearly as possible. What we need we need KPIs
don't we we need to live on the cap.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
We do, we do, but we need people actioning stuff
and actually doing things. And that's why as pleased having
made that say to the nation speech said tourism something
you can power up really fast as you can also
international education. To see the team then respond within a
week to say right out we can do the digital nomads.
They can get that done well and out the door
and have the system focus on getting that dot job done.
I thought was very good.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, Naru I'm reading yesterday has never been closer to
China as they mark the first anniversary of their particular association.
Winston stuck. Is he still in Kirabas The president won't
meet him, The aids on hold. How worried should we be?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Well, I mean, I mean we're just being really clear
to say, look, we're putting taxpayers money into Kerebas about
one and one hundred and two million from memory over
the last three years or four years, and the reality
has got to be spent effectively, Winston's done a great job.
He's met with I think fifty different counterparts across the
world that he's visits them at forty five countries or
something in the first year. And Carabas we just had
(02:40):
radio silence. So he's doing the right thing actually by
saying I'm sorry, but actually we actually want the courtesy
of some engagement with the government of Carabas. And equally,
we can't send New Zealand taxpayers money and there if
we don't have a relationship or a dialogue happening.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
And so I tell you about our relationship with the Pacific.
When the president of Kirabas doesn't want to meet our
foreign minister.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Well, I just say to you, I think it's peculiarly Carabats,
because our relationship across the Pacific is outstanding and I've
met with most of the leaders. Winstance done the same
with the foreign ministers. Our influence and our partnership in
the Pacific, I think is very very strong.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So you're still a bullish Oh.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, absolutely. I think if you look at how we
stepped up the relationships with Fiji and sah and tong
On just in the last twelve months, a couple with
the other countries throughout the region as well, our contributions
in the Pacific Island Forum. All that stuff is really
very strong, and I think the Pacific Partners have played
that back to us very strongly that they've appreciated. You know,
We've hosted them here in New Zealand. I've met with
(03:39):
them personally when they're traveling through with dinners and I'm
getting to know each other, and so that's been very,
very positive, and I think in general, you know, we
had literally years where we just didn't get out of
New Zealand to go do foreign affairs work, and it
wasn't a priority for the last lot. Well, gee, it's
mission critical for us because it's about defense and it's
also about growth.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
You're sick. I watched you week in your State of
the Nation speech. Sick of the comp Are you sick
of the com com or you're sick of the lack
of action or both?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Sick you of just actually the lack of competition that's
in our big sectors. And when you're so far away
from the rest of the world, you don't get other
big operators wanting to operate in there. So it means
that your domestic sectors have to even be more competitive.
And when you go across the piece, whether it's frankly
banking as we've started to talk about last year, whether
it's energy, retailers, groceries, we actually have to seriously have
(04:28):
a proper converse, not a conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
We have to do something about competition. This is my
criticism of you, is that you're too much yack, not
enough do. If you don't like what the Commerce Commissioner
is doing, you just all fight up because of Trump's
executive orders. But that's what you need, exactly what you
need to executive orders. You need to get a bloody
market pen and start scratching out a few signatures and stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And the difference between a presidential system and a parliamentary
system that's quite profound in that regard. But if you look.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Most governments, you and I a the same things. But
what I'm watching here is a Commerce commission that's been
looking at petrol and supermarkets and building products and everything
else for your studies that nothing's happening.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, so we know what the problem is, but no
one ever pulls the trigger to say that's the action
that needs to take place. Off the back of that study, right,
So that's what we've got to do this year. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
So when you talk about competition in retail, who specifically
you're worried about.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Well, I think we look at the grocery supermarket outlets.
We you know, we've obviously spoken before about the energy
pieces and there's some work going on around that right now.
I'm also very fixated on the banks. If I'm really
honest with you, I.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Think banks this year specifically, well.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Again, we're going to make sure, as we said, get
k K our banks sort of fired up and capitalize
in a way that actually can take on those banks.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
When you're going to do there's a whole bunch of
laws rate we.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Can change around what's called open banking because actually the
banks have been running that, whereas other countries that's run
by others, so the banks don't unincentivized to innovate or
do anything very different.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
So kanks, you're a big thing.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Well, it's it's one of the things we can do
to make sure that we get banking more competitive. And
we're going to do that though, well, we're working. As
I said, we talked about that at the end of
last year. We've got to go through a process of
just making sure we can work up with the best
way to raise that five hundred million dollars in capital
that we want to put in there. That five hundred
million dollars will lead to billions of dollars of extra
investment to loan lending to businesses but also to consumers
(06:21):
as well, and so it's just working our way through that.
We're going to do that as quickly as we possibly can.
But I think there's other things Mark like that we
can do around sort of some of the regulations around
banks and making sure that they are, you know, as
competitive and as that we make it as easy as possible.
If you talk about the margins that exist in banking
and New Zealand relative to other parts.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Of the world, that's kind of a lot of sense.
We'll talk about this is this is my frustration. My
frustration with you is I think you're you're well intentioned,
but you're running out of time. Yeah, it's twenty twenty
five now, and you've spent all of last year talking
about this and thinking about that and passing a bit
of legislation. All of that's fantastic. Just agree well all
(07:00):
you want, but you're the one facing the voters in
twenty six not me right, and you're going to run
out a runway if you don't actually start kicking some
mass and getting this country moving.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Well, I would just say to you, I think the
way we actually dealt with government's been need to get
inflation down, to get interest rates down, to get business
confidence and consumer confidence at good levels, is fantastic. I'm
just signaling, as I did in my State of the
Nation speech last year was break the back of cost
of living. This year is all about growth, growth, growth,
So I think when you look at what we did
on fast Track, you think about RMA reform, where we've
bleeded on about it for eighteen years. It was supposed
(07:32):
to be a horse turned into a camera with endless
amendments and a whole industry around it. To go introduce
fast Track in the way that we are to talk
about changing the whole of the RMA system and getting
that moving this year is actually a major, major, There's
a lot of focus going on. So just I hear
what you're saying, and I know the frustration. If you're frustrated,
just meagine how frustrated I am about the speed of
things that happen here in Wellington. But I'm doing everything
(07:52):
we can with the team, as you saw even yesterday
on digital nomad visas within a whek.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
But you were late. You were a year of not
two years late on that. That's a stroke of a
pen decisions. Think of it Monday, Do it Tuesday. Not
come back a year after you've been in office and go,
oh it's what we've thought of.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Oh, you've come back from holiday, fired up my cost?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Gagal Well, someone's going to point a few things out,
don't they Look my road, the road north of Auckland. Right,
here's your new health minister. So one of the best
pieces of road in this country is State Highway one,
as commissioned by Stephen Joyce. That was going to one
hundred and twenty k's how fast was I traveling over
the holiday? Is one hundred? He announced it last year.
Why hasn't it changed the road cones around Auckland. Have
(08:32):
a look at the road cones around Auckland at the moment.
There's only millions of them. Why hasn't it changed? Sime
and Brown announced that would change. Hasn't changed? Why not?
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Well I will get onto it. The sweep month to.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Get onto it because I asked it. I mean, when
you announce something, actually do it.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Yep. But there's a whole bunch of pilava that goes
with as you know, around speed limits, for example. We
have worked as quickly as we can. But you have
regional you have local government, you have regional government, you
have central government. Is a whole bunch pilava and all that.
We're trying to strip all of that out. I think
we're over governed. We've got way too many people in
the mix of everything, and so we're working our way
through that. And I think you'll see that very shortly.
(09:10):
So hang fire, I know, okay, did you.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I'm here all years, so you're going to get this
all Yearde and Joyce's peace in the Herald.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
I haven't actually you get on to when you're.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Arranging the deck chairs. He's not a fan of what
you did with the science thing last week. He thinks
that's a mistake. You would disagree with them, presumably, Yeah, yeah, do.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Because Callahan was set up years ago to do the
innovation work in commercialization work, it didn't deliver for a
number of reasons. We've got four now, very focused Crown
Research institutes which needed to happen, and they need to
be powered up to be commercialized. If you go to Israel,
if you go to Ireland, you go to Denmark, academics
get to actually participate and become multimillionaires because of their
(09:48):
innovations that they then end up turning into great companies.
And so we want to make sure the money that
we spend in the R and D system, Frankly, it's
been going all over the place. It needs to go
just purely into things that make them. We go quackert
and those fourth focused institutes. The removal of Callahan will
actually give us the beginnings of what we need to do.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Good stuff catch up next Tuesday, Appreciate of Crime Christopher
Luxen That article, by the way out of Saturday's Herald
Government Science Plan is like rearranging the dick chairs. Good read,
because he was heavily involved in the process, of course,
when he was in government. For more from the Mic
Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks. It'd be from
six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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