Pollies: Labour's Ginny Andersen and Nationals Mark Mitchell on retail crime, policing, Andrew Bayly
February 25, 2025 • 11 mins
The Opposition is wary innocent people may come off worse if more citizen's arrests are permitted.
The Government is due to announce a refresh in the way it handles retail crime this afternoon, following a 12% rise in rates last year.
A loosening of citizen arrest rules is expected, which currently only allow arrests between 9pm and 6am, and for crimes with a maximum punishment of at least three years in prison.
Labour's Police Spokesperson Ginny Andersen says New Zealand has already seen examples where people have been injured or lost their life, because a weapon was involved.
Police Minister Mark Mitchell told Mike Hosking the police can’t be everywhere all the time, and they want to make sure that business owners and customers are protected.
He says they want to ensure people have the right to defend themselves and their property without criminalising themselves.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Time for politics Wednesday, and Ginny Anderson's with us along
with Mark Mitchell. A very good morning to both of you.
Moning Jenny, did you know you would know because of
both of your jobs. But this this thousand dollars thing, Mark,
when you go make a citizen's arrest or, it's got
to be after nine o'clock or before six o'clock in
the morning. Who invented that?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Is that part of the Is that part of Paul's announcement?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
No, that's the law now, Mark, Well.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
To be honest with you, I'm going to wait until
Paul makes's announcement after and I'm quite excited about some
of the things that we're doing around retail crime. But
that law that you, just, to be honest, i'd have
to go away and have a look at it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
See, I don't think anyone knows that Lord what you did, Jenny. Clearly,
have you done a few arrests, a few citizens arresting
you in your life? Jenny, I'd back you on a
after a hard day to Select committee and you wandering
through the hut wall and you're going that bastard's got
a television. I'm taking them out.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, I think I'm a similar height to you, Mark,
so much chances of actually successfully doing something would be low.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Go for the ankles, ankle tap, a little ankle tap.
So without getting ahead of it, Mark, because I know
you're under instruction not to talk about it. But what
stops the sisters and arrest and the law and rules
and regulations around it getting out of control?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, I mean, you do have to have some pretty
strict rules and guidelines around it. And I don't want
to get ahead of Paul's announcement this afternoon. That will
be much clearer when he makes his announcement. But I
do know one thing that we have to do something
about making sure that retailers, their employers, and their customers
are safe. And although we're seen that we are seeing
(01:40):
a really positive reduction and violent retail crime, we know
that we still have a lot more to do. We
know that we want to get on top of the
nonviolent retail crime as well, because have you seen that continues.
Although it's slowing down, that continues to tick up, and
we want to get on top of that. But you know, overall,
I'm very very pleased to the direction that we're heading
as a country. We knew that we were in big
(02:01):
trouble under the previous government. I want to acknowledge the police.
They are doing an outstanding job. And by the way,
I just want to acknowledge our corrections officers too, because
we have it ad an uptick in people coming into
our prisons and they are doing an outstanding job. They
don't get recognized much because they're behind the wire, but
there's tens of thousands of positive actions that happen every
day in our correction system.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
As long as the writing instructions Ginny are fair or
reasonable in terms of what a security guard and a
supermarket can do by way of citizens arrest, Are you
broadly in favor of it.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, I understand it's people, so it's not just security
guards that would be someone.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
But that's going to be the outworking of it, isn't it.
I mean, I'm not going to arrest anybody. It'll be
a security guard and a supermarket are more Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
You might not, but what are they One of the
concerns of those big retailers who want people to buy
things in the shop is that they will see incidents
in the store. So if someone does attempt to steal something,
you have another another store member you're tackling them or
trying to restrain them or hold them down, and that's
where things can get dangerous.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I reckon the first video you see of somebody being
sat on at Harvey Norman, people are going going to
go good job and about a freaking time.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Well that, yeah, it is good, but there are lots
of instances and we've seen those in New Zealand where
people have been in jed or lost their life because
there's a weapon involved. And so that's the concern. And
I'm actually really surprised Marxi, Yes, because you ask any
police officer whether it's a good idea for people to
take law into their own hands, and they will always
say that it ends in disaster. And so it's a
(03:34):
strong message police have always given that it's not safe
for our communities for people to do. Would you think
it will be very interesting to see how this actually
pans out in reality and having some big risks on
the side of the government.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, they haven't supported anything we've done in terms of
public safety since we come into government. We see no, no, you,
Labor hasn't supported anything.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I think the police will support that smart against and.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
By the way, and by the way, Mike, I'm sorry,
but call me old fashioned shopkeepers that are having people
go and try to put hammers through the heads, and
I was at the bedside of one just recently. Have
to make sure the law actually protects him and put
some some protection around police.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I think you're missing the I think you're on the
right side of his crew. Having said that, I think
you're on the right side of it, Mark, But I
do take Jinny's point. The first one that goes wrong
and the chances are as something will because a few
of these are on meth heads and they got nothing
to lose, and it's going to get ugly. Really, the
politics of that, you're going to be peddling fairly hard,
i'd suggest.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, well, I can tell you now that already shopkeepers
that have stepped forward, and that example that I was
using was the son step forward to defend his his
father who was on the ground and having a hammer
put through his head. And I'm sorry, but the police
can't be everywhere all the time, and we want to
be very clear and make sure that those people and
customers are protected and have the right to be able
(05:05):
to actually defend their property and themselves without criminalizing themselves,
and I think that is just a practical, common sense
thing to do and to return some power back to
the people that are been victimized.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Quick comment before we get to Bailey Jinny. Just in general,
we had Erica Stanford yesterday those numbers on teachers that
they cocked up. Yet again we had the Rose report
last week. In general, from your experience, is the public
service holding a government of the day back through an
aptitude from experience?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
No?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
No.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
In general, the experience I've had with those people have
reported to me and given me advice have been incredibly
effective and have helped resolve some quite big problems that
would have cost a lot more if you have gone
to a private contractor Do you.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Have to micromanage them at times?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
I've never had to. I've had excellent people working to me,
have always done a very good job, and generally jocobus Okay,
what about you, mate.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, generally the very good. But we don't take all
their advice. That's what we've been voted in. Well, you know,
we have things that we want to achieve and things
that we want to do, and some of the advice
I taken. Other stuff I'm very clear about what I
want to achieve, and that's what we do.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
What about your math? So I mean, I know this
isn't your area, mark, but they thought they had a
thousand more teachers and turns out they got twelve hundred
and fifty short two and a half thousand wrong. But
when you're dealing with that level of incompetence, how do
you handle it? Because it comes back you.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well, I think I listened to that interview of the
Erica and she's very clear about the fact that her
own gut feeling was telling her that she couldn't rely
on the data and went back and challenged it and
thankfully sort of has got ahead of the curved to
some extent. But you know, that's our job. Our job
is just sit there and have people, have a long
line of officials come through and tell us what they
think we should be doing. We're in government because we
(06:48):
want to make changes and we want to implement what
our policies are and get on and do that. And
that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Know, the evidence just gets in the way sometimes, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Having well on, Sorry, any but you might have religiously
gone off everything that adviser has told you. We don't well,
and if I did that then we probably wouldn't be seen.
All the results were seen at the moment in relation
and reduction of violent crime in our country days. We've
got to keep that going.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
You've got four papers, one including when you signed out
saying that gangs were using gun rangers to practice their skills.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
We're not.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
You still didn't and you still didn't know about it,
so you don't read you.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Well, that's well, that's that's complete nonsense.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
It's not true effect having such Let's get back.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Let's get back. But I will say this, Mike, is
it is it? Labor didn't support getting legislation, but it's
proven to be very effective.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Well, if I have time, I'm going to come back
to chambers. I want a question on that. But Ginny,
just quickly on Bailey, Uh, do you run the risk
of in the it's the media's fault as well. You
know how long it took you had the weekend and
we didn't say anything and his hand was on his
arm and he had to go and everyone get sacked.
Do we not send the message overall the people coming
from outside into politics, So that's the sort of treatment
(08:03):
they get, and it's not excusing what Bailey did. But
that's the sort of treatment they get. Who can be
bothered with it? It sounds pathetic?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Is that's whose? Whose question to me? Well, I tell
you what did sound terrible? Was your interview with the
Prime Minister use today? And so I think you know
it was painful. He was all over the plane.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Asking I'm asking about Bailey and Hipkins barking at dogs
and cars, and it's just it becomes a sort of
a saccothon and I sacked them in two minutes and
it took it's like, from the outside to answer your question.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I think it would be really helpful if we knew
what actually happened.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So well, he got the heated discussion.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Pushed his arms, did he squeeze it was?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
If it was.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
If it did, someone stood.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
On then fair enough. But there was a heated exchange,
someone grabbed someone's arm and the next thing he knows
he's out of a career.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, we don't know that because he won't tell us
the details. So if we could make a judgment on
the facts, it would be good to know those facts.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I don't know, what do you think, Mark, I mean,
you've got I want to recognize Andrew and and the
fact that he was doing some outstanding there. He obviously
felt like he had crossed the line. He's he's a
very good local MP and you know him and his
family will be really feeling it now, without a doubt.
It's these things play out the public and it's not easy.
(09:24):
But he obviously stepped forward and took responsibility for him
and that was the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, I get that. But having said that, Ginny is right,
the fluxing did sound dreadful yesterday. What's his problem? Mark,
there's a shot.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, you're asking the wrong person because you know that
I really rate him. Well, look I do too.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I mean I like the guy and I want him
to do well. And that's not a political statement. I
just want anybody to do well to get this country
off its knees. But you know, if you heard yesterday,
I mean, come on.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Well, look I'm a huge supporter of his and I
think that no. But but but he's when you look
at it, we don't really step back and look at it.
It's extraordinary what he's achieved. He's only been in politics.
You know, this is a second term. He's the Prime
Minister of the country, leading us one of the most
difficult times that we've ever had economically, and he's a
(10:15):
solid he's dependable, he's there every day. He knows what
we have to do. He's great for me being a minister.
You couldn't ask for a better Prime Minise. He bx
me up in everything that I need to do.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
People aren't buying it people super.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Quick, Jenny. The Health Committee, I note, had fifteen thousand
written submissions on the gene technology bill. You're on the
committee for the treaty. Is this level of submissions unusual?
Are we suddenly more active or is it the same
people photocopying stuff off and just duplicating everything.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
There are huge amounts of submissions. They're breaking all records
every time. And one of the things that happened is
as we have larger umbrella groups that do form submission,
so you just had to write your name in a
few lines in that generation.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Is that useful?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Not really, because you're just getting the same thing a lot,
so you're wanting a variety of views so you understand
the details. So and I think people have this misconception
that it's a race, so the most submissions win.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
The point that's why. That's why I ask the question happens. Yeah,
it seems fruitless or pointless to be nice. To see you, guys, Mirk, Mitchell,
Ginny Anderson.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
For more from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
Time for politics Wednesday, and Ginny Anderson's with us along
with Mark Mitchell. A very good morning to both of you.
Moning Jenny, did you know you would know because of
both of your jobs. But this this thousand dollars thing, Mark,
when you go make a citizen's arrest or, it's got
to be after nine o'clock or before six o'clock in
the morning. Who invented that?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Is that part of the Is that part of Paul's announcement?
Speaker 3 (00:22):
No, that's the law now, Mark, Well.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
To be honest with you, I'm going to wait until
Paul makes's announcement after and I'm quite excited about some
of the things that we're doing around retail crime. But
that law that you, just, to be honest, i'd have
to go away and have a look at it.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
See, I don't think anyone knows that Lord what you did, Jenny. Clearly,
have you done a few arrests, a few citizens arresting
you in your life? Jenny, I'd back you on a
after a hard day to Select committee and you wandering
through the hut wall and you're going that bastard's got
a television. I'm taking them out.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Well, I think I'm a similar height to you, Mark,
so much chances of actually successfully doing something would be low.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Go for the ankles, ankle tap, a little ankle tap.
So without getting ahead of it, Mark, because I know
you're under instruction not to talk about it. But what
stops the sisters and arrest and the law and rules
and regulations around it getting out of control?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, I mean, you do have to have some pretty
strict rules and guidelines around it. And I don't want
to get ahead of Paul's announcement this afternoon. That will
be much clearer when he makes his announcement. But I
do know one thing that we have to do something
about making sure that retailers, their employers, and their customers
are safe. And although we're seen that we are seeing
(01:40):
a really positive reduction and violent retail crime, we know
that we still have a lot more to do. We
know that we want to get on top of the
nonviolent retail crime as well, because have you seen that continues.
Although it's slowing down, that continues to tick up, and
we want to get on top of that. But you know, overall,
I'm very very pleased to the direction that we're heading
as a country. We knew that we were in big
(02:01):
trouble under the previous government. I want to acknowledge the police.
They are doing an outstanding job. And by the way,
I just want to acknowledge our corrections officers too, because
we have it ad an uptick in people coming into
our prisons and they are doing an outstanding job. They
don't get recognized much because they're behind the wire, but
there's tens of thousands of positive actions that happen every
day in our correction system.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
As long as the writing instructions Ginny are fair or
reasonable in terms of what a security guard and a
supermarket can do by way of citizens arrest, Are you
broadly in favor of it.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, I understand it's people, so it's not just security
guards that would be someone.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
But that's going to be the outworking of it, isn't it.
I mean, I'm not going to arrest anybody. It'll be
a security guard and a supermarket are more Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
You might not, but what are they One of the
concerns of those big retailers who want people to buy
things in the shop is that they will see incidents
in the store. So if someone does attempt to steal something,
you have another another store member you're tackling them or
trying to restrain them or hold them down, and that's
where things can get dangerous.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I reckon the first video you see of somebody being
sat on at Harvey Norman, people are going going to
go good job and about a freaking time.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
Well that, yeah, it is good, but there are lots
of instances and we've seen those in New Zealand where
people have been in jed or lost their life because
there's a weapon involved. And so that's the concern. And
I'm actually really surprised Marxi, Yes, because you ask any
police officer whether it's a good idea for people to
take law into their own hands, and they will always
say that it ends in disaster. And so it's a
(03:34):
strong message police have always given that it's not safe
for our communities for people to do. Would you think
it will be very interesting to see how this actually
pans out in reality and having some big risks on
the side of the government.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Well, they haven't supported anything we've done in terms of
public safety since we come into government. We see no, no, you,
Labor hasn't supported anything.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I think the police will support that smart against and.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
By the way, and by the way, Mike, I'm sorry,
but call me old fashioned shopkeepers that are having people
go and try to put hammers through the heads, and
I was at the bedside of one just recently. Have
to make sure the law actually protects him and put
some some protection around police.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
I think you're missing the I think you're on the
right side of his crew. Having said that, I think
you're on the right side of it, Mark, But I
do take Jinny's point. The first one that goes wrong
and the chances are as something will because a few
of these are on meth heads and they got nothing
to lose, and it's going to get ugly. Really, the
politics of that, you're going to be peddling fairly hard,
i'd suggest.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, well, I can tell you now that already shopkeepers
that have stepped forward, and that example that I was
using was the son step forward to defend his his
father who was on the ground and having a hammer
put through his head. And I'm sorry, but the police
can't be everywhere all the time, and we want to
be very clear and make sure that those people and
customers are protected and have the right to be able
(05:05):
to actually defend their property and themselves without criminalizing themselves,
and I think that is just a practical, common sense
thing to do and to return some power back to
the people that are been victimized.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Quick comment before we get to Bailey Jinny. Just in general,
we had Erica Stanford yesterday those numbers on teachers that
they cocked up. Yet again we had the Rose report
last week. In general, from your experience, is the public
service holding a government of the day back through an
aptitude from experience?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
No?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
No.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
In general, the experience I've had with those people have
reported to me and given me advice have been incredibly
effective and have helped resolve some quite big problems that
would have cost a lot more if you have gone
to a private contractor Do you.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Have to micromanage them at times?
Speaker 3 (05:51):
I've never had to. I've had excellent people working to me,
have always done a very good job, and generally jocobus Okay,
what about you, mate.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah, generally the very good. But we don't take all
their advice. That's what we've been voted in. Well, you know,
we have things that we want to achieve and things
that we want to do, and some of the advice
I taken. Other stuff I'm very clear about what I
want to achieve, and that's what we do.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
What about your math? So I mean, I know this
isn't your area, mark, but they thought they had a
thousand more teachers and turns out they got twelve hundred
and fifty short two and a half thousand wrong. But
when you're dealing with that level of incompetence, how do
you handle it? Because it comes back you.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Well, I think I listened to that interview of the
Erica and she's very clear about the fact that her
own gut feeling was telling her that she couldn't rely
on the data and went back and challenged it and
thankfully sort of has got ahead of the curved to
some extent. But you know, that's our job. Our job
is just sit there and have people, have a long
line of officials come through and tell us what they
think we should be doing. We're in government because we
(06:48):
want to make changes and we want to implement what
our policies are and get on and do that. And
that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Know, the evidence just gets in the way sometimes, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Having well on, Sorry, any but you might have religiously
gone off everything that adviser has told you. We don't well,
and if I did that then we probably wouldn't be seen.
All the results were seen at the moment in relation
and reduction of violent crime in our country days. We've
got to keep that going.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
You've got four papers, one including when you signed out
saying that gangs were using gun rangers to practice their skills.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
We're not.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
You still didn't and you still didn't know about it,
so you don't read you.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Well, that's well, that's that's complete nonsense.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
It's not true effect having such Let's get back.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Let's get back. But I will say this, Mike, is
it is it? Labor didn't support getting legislation, but it's
proven to be very effective.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Well, if I have time, I'm going to come back
to chambers. I want a question on that. But Ginny,
just quickly on Bailey, Uh, do you run the risk
of in the it's the media's fault as well. You
know how long it took you had the weekend and
we didn't say anything and his hand was on his
arm and he had to go and everyone get sacked.
Do we not send the message overall the people coming
from outside into politics, So that's the sort of treatment
(08:03):
they get, and it's not excusing what Bailey did. But
that's the sort of treatment they get. Who can be
bothered with it? It sounds pathetic?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Is that's whose? Whose question to me? Well, I tell
you what did sound terrible? Was your interview with the
Prime Minister use today? And so I think you know
it was painful. He was all over the plane.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Asking I'm asking about Bailey and Hipkins barking at dogs
and cars, and it's just it becomes a sort of
a saccothon and I sacked them in two minutes and
it took it's like, from the outside to answer your question.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
I think it would be really helpful if we knew
what actually happened.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So well, he got the heated discussion.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Pushed his arms, did he squeeze it was?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
If it was.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
If it did, someone stood.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
On then fair enough. But there was a heated exchange,
someone grabbed someone's arm and the next thing he knows
he's out of a career.
Speaker 3 (08:57):
Well, we don't know that because he won't tell us
the details. So if we could make a judgment on
the facts, it would be good to know those facts.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
I don't know, what do you think, Mark, I mean,
you've got I want to recognize Andrew and and the
fact that he was doing some outstanding there. He obviously
felt like he had crossed the line. He's he's a
very good local MP and you know him and his
family will be really feeling it now, without a doubt.
It's these things play out the public and it's not easy.
(09:24):
But he obviously stepped forward and took responsibility for him
and that was the right thing to do.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Yeah, I get that. But having said that, Ginny is right,
the fluxing did sound dreadful yesterday. What's his problem? Mark,
there's a shot.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Well, you're asking the wrong person because you know that
I really rate him. Well, look I do too.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
I mean I like the guy and I want him
to do well. And that's not a political statement. I
just want anybody to do well to get this country
off its knees. But you know, if you heard yesterday,
I mean, come on.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Well, look I'm a huge supporter of his and I
think that no. But but but he's when you look
at it, we don't really step back and look at it.
It's extraordinary what he's achieved. He's only been in politics.
You know, this is a second term. He's the Prime
Minister of the country, leading us one of the most
difficult times that we've ever had economically, and he's a
(10:15):
solid he's dependable, he's there every day. He knows what
we have to do. He's great for me being a minister.
You couldn't ask for a better Prime Minise. He bx
me up in everything that I need to do.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
People aren't buying it people super.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Quick, Jenny. The Health Committee, I note, had fifteen thousand
written submissions on the gene technology bill. You're on the
committee for the treaty. Is this level of submissions unusual?
Are we suddenly more active or is it the same
people photocopying stuff off and just duplicating everything.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
There are huge amounts of submissions. They're breaking all records
every time. And one of the things that happened is
as we have larger umbrella groups that do form submission,
so you just had to write your name in a
few lines in that generation.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Is that useful?
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Not really, because you're just getting the same thing a lot,
so you're wanting a variety of views so you understand
the details. So and I think people have this misconception
that it's a race, so the most submissions win.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
The point that's why. That's why I ask the question happens. Yeah,
it seems fruitless or pointless to be nice. To see you, guys, Mirk, Mitchell,
Ginny Anderson.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
For more from The Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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