Jarrod Gilbert: Independent Research Solutions report author on the research into gangs and prison culture

Research into New Zealand prisons has found more than a third of inmates are in voluntary segregation.   

The report from Independent Research Solutions says the influence of gangs on prison culture has grown significantly in the past decades.  

It finds inmates are being categorised as being gang members or non-gang members - with the latter being the worst off.  

Author Jarrod Gilbert told Mike Hosking prisoners must either join a gang, fend for themselves, or be separated.   

He says the massive increase in voluntary segregations is unconsciously establishing two prisons within a prison.  

Gilbert says the Department of Corrections may hold the keys to the prisons, but on the inside it's a different story. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
New report that's looked into the influence of gangs and
what sort of influence they're having in prisons. It's the
old line there is no rehabit simply a place of recruitment.
One suggesting that's interesting split the system gangs and non
gangs any way. Independent Research Solutions director and author of
the report, Jared Gilbert back with us morning.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Good morning to you, Mike.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
I noticed in this report you talk about rehab. Is
rehab really the goal? I mean, realistically the goal in prison?
Has it ever really been that? Well?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well, I mean the first prisons, when the first modern
prisons in the early eighteen hundreds, that's sort of what
the promise was.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
You know.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
Consequently they've I've got two or three functions, really punishment,
holding people to account, and making sure, you know, dangerous
people are are managed. But rehabilitation is certainly one important
goal for sure, right, So gangs, right, and we spend
a lot of money trying to achieve it.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Yes, we do. If gangs run the place, is that
a lack of oversight from corrections.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
You've got to be careful saying gangs run the place,
because corrections still hold the keys, right, But in that
informal world of the prism have you know, they do
have too much power, and this is a detriment to
the running of the prison. I don't think you can
see it any other way.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Is that known by corrections?

Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's certainly known by a correction staff, because I interviewed
them and actually look a meeting with the chief execut
later day to talk through the implications of the report.
But clearly, if one of your goals is rehabilitation, and
for corrections it certainly is, then this level of control
and power is problematic because of course, if you're creating
a place of fear not that doesn't just mean that

(01:33):
the gangs at the top tier of this sort of
informal hierarchy. It means that it pushes people toward joining
a gang for security. So while you're causing the problems,
you're also benefiting from them, which is kind of which
is far from idea.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
One of the most telling figures thirty five percent or
involuntary segregation. Does that mean a person like me, I
robbed the bank. I'm not a gang member, I don't
want to be a gang member, but I'm getting beaten
up on and so I go to stick me in
a sell and I'll stay there for my leg Is
that how it works?

Speaker 2 (02:04):
That, that is how it works. If you can take
care of yourself, the gangs will give you a bit
of status. You'll be sort of tire too. But if
you can't, then you've become incredibly vulnerable to They take
a chicken mic, they'll take your lozenges, you know, your
nicoteen longe, and they'll take whatever they can from you.
They may force you to do things as well. And
so yeah, the option is to go to voluntary segregation.

(02:25):
So what we've seen as the culture in the prisons
has changed, this massive increase over years of voluntary segregation.
So we're kind in some way ways we are unconsciously
established establishing two prisons.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
And could you do that? Well, I mean that's the
interesting thing. Could you do that? Could you split the
gangs off into a prison gang non prison gang? Is
that possible or hopelessly?

Speaker 2 (02:47):
No? It may well be that we have to go
to wings. But if we are going to separate wings,
but if we are going to do that, we should
be doing it consciously and with a plan, rather than
just sort of allowing it happen. I was going to
say naturally and as much in prisons as natural.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
No, exactly, all right, Jared, appreciate it. Jared Gilbert, Minister
of Corrections. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast listen
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