March 17, 2025 • 9 mins
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon's adamant he won't be walking away from trade negotiations with India, even if they prove difficult.
Luxon's met with Prime Minister Narendra Modi to explore avenues for deeper bilateral ties and make more headway towards a Free Trade Agreement.
Trade negotiations will commence next month.
Luxon told Mike Hosking there's sensitivity from the Indian side about dairy, as it makes up about 15% of its GDP.
He says the Government wants to do everything it can to advance dairy with India, and that's been a key part of the conversation so far.
The Prime Minister’s hopeful they’ll be able to lock down an FTA by the end of the year.
Luxon told Hosking they haven’t put a time frame on achieving an agreement, but the two will be moving at pace.
He says given some of the work that's already happened and the relationships at the top level, we can expect to make good progress this year.
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Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Modig overnight. How the vibes going? Did it go well?
The Prime Minister on a trade mission, of course, of
some note, Christopher Luxen is with us from India. Good morning, morning, Mike.
The meeting with Mody on a scale of one to ten, ten,
it was a love first one. You can't stand each other.
What's your number?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That's pretty much a ten. We get on very well.
It's a good personal chemistry and good relationship there. He's
got a good sense of humor and we connected very
well in Laos and that actually is what led to
the state visit and then obviously we've accelerated things from there.
But you know, he approaches things in a similar way
that I think about things around delivery results, how you
get delivery out of a team in your public service.
(00:38):
So no, we ken it really well, really well.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
How much time was spent on the FTA specifically.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, there's been a lot of time leading up until
the announcement that I know Todd talked to you the
other day about. But from our point of view inside
the actual meetings that we had, it was, you know,
we talked about it. We know what we want to do.
We both said to our trade ministers. We wanted to
move as quickly as possible, and we said that in
front of our respective delegations, just to make sure that
the systems understood that we're expecting a response to be
(01:05):
worked through pretty quickly. So, but you know, there was
also conversations around the broader you know, defense, We've got
a big step up happening in defense and security. We
should be doing more work with India. We're actually leading
a maritime force at the moment with India as our
deputy and we've obviously got Ta Kaha coming into Mumbai
later on the week as well. So you know, we
talked about defense aspects, we talked about certainly, you know,
(01:27):
the commerce and economic aspects, but also there's a lot
of people to people connection stuff which is really important.
They're very interested in. One of the things we talked
a lot about was actually sports. I mean, they want
to make a pitch for the Olympics in twenty thirty six.
They noticed that we performed really well through the Olympics
on a per head basis, and they're interested in all
of those sorts of things so as well. So there's
quite a lot in the people to people space.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
How much actual business will be done this week from
the delegation.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, there's quite a bit going on. We've actually we've
just completed one day out of four. We've got another
here in New Delhi and then we do move to
a much more business orientation in the last two days
in Mumbai, which is obviously the commercial capital of India.
But you know, I think the you know, getting that
you know, really economic breakthrough, I think and being able
to kick off the you know, the FTA negotiations is
(02:15):
really important. I mean this morning as I check in
with the delegations each morning and get them to do
a round table, and I was just you know, talking
to you know, Pan Pacific and they were talking about
their wood products that are sold into India. Well, they
experience a five to ten percent tariff typically that they
don't experience out of Australia. Wine. You know, there's a
whole bunch of products, you know, apples that actually have
(02:36):
huge tariffs attached with them and the Australians don't have it. So,
you know, we know we've got work to do. There'll
be some sensitive issues on both sides, but you know,
I'm very comfortable with the relationship. We're built that we
can work them through quite practically.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Where where does dairies sit or where will it sit
or how do you handle it?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Well, what we what we don't do is say we're
going to walk away, because that will be a hard conversation.
And I get that sensitivity on the Indian side. To
give you a feel for it, Mike, about forty five
percent of Indians are engaged in agriculture and it's about
fifteen percent of their actual GDP, so it's a very
sensitive political issue.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Now.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Having said that, we want to make sure that we
do everything we can to advance dairy with India. We're
not going to give up and have a mentality to
say we can't even try, and so that's been part
of the conversation leading into the kickoff of these They
haven't ruled that out. We haven't ruled it out, and
we know that'll be difficult, but we're determined to try
and find a way through it and do the very
very best we can for New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Is it possible it's a slow burn, so you could
do some sort of deal with dairy coming in later.
Is that the sort of scenario you look at.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, there's all sorts of options, But for us right now,
I do actually want to push on and do the
very very best that we can do, and I want
to make sure that we get the best deal compared
to any other country around dairy and we protect ourselves
in that negotiation. So I'm sure there's lots of ways
we can play that. There'll be some other asks from
the Indian side, I suspect as well, and other things
(04:02):
that will come up from our side, but you know,
the key thing is I want to push on now
and get this thing resolved and done. What's the timeline
on it, Well, I mean promise to modion. I didn't
put a time frame on it, but suffice to say,
we made it very clear that we're expecting to make
good progress on it through the course of this year.
And you know, I think, actually, frankly, given some of
(04:23):
the work and conversations that have already happened, and given
the relationships that we've got at the top, top level,
there's no reason why we shouldn't have an expectation we
should be able to try and push really hard to
try and do as much of it as we can
this year. But you know, you never can put a
timeline on it. We will negotiate hard. They will negotiate hard.
I've done a lot of business in India here and
my past life, and I can tell you they are
(04:44):
the most some pretty brutal negotiations. But it's really important
that we do the very best we can. We secure
the best outcome we can. So it will take as
long as it takes. But you know, to be honest,
today and our bilaterals, we were making it pretty clear
to our teams on all sides that we wanted to
get on with it. And that's really helpful, big large
Indian system that's you know, got to negotiate agreements with
the US now, you know, we want to make sure
(05:06):
the system knows that actually this is a priority for
both prime ministers and let's get on to it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Having said that, Ursula Vandeline EU said they have it done.
She thought by the end of the year, shouldn't we
be aiming for that in that sense and state that
and being a bit bold about it.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yes, that's my expectation privately, and I think that would
be promise to motives and we might even try and
push even harder. But you know, we will push as
hard as we can to say stay focused. We know,
you know what the lay of the land looks like,
given the work that we've put into before we even
committed to launching these negotiations. So yeah, we know where
the issues will be difficult. But actually it's about a mentality, frankly, Mike,
(05:43):
which is that you know, this is a country he
z only needs to grow and then need to get
money into people's back pockets. And when you actually have
you know, with I think in the six year period
under the previous mistrature we declined like seventeen percent with
two way trade with India. You know, it's two or
three billion, three billion dollars. Now that's hardly anything in
the scheme of a country the size that it is,
with the wealth that it has. It's our twelfth biggest partner,
it's one point five percent of our exports and deserves
(06:05):
to be much bigger than that, and we have to
try and so but I can tell you, like we've
got a great delegation with us and even tonight we've
had a fantastic function with them, just hearing some of
the excitement that they've got and whether it's in the services,
whether it's in the sports world, where it's in the
education world, even the primary industries. There's you know, we've
got a lot of value added products and services that
(06:25):
are unavailable here in this market. So I think there's
lots of ways to skin this cat.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Explain and you would be an expert in this area
from a previous life. Explain to me. Given the immigration flow,
particularly from India to New Zealand, why is it that
the New Zealand doesn't go direct? Why can't I go
from Auckland to Delhi, Orkland, Tommy Auckland at anywhere in India.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, well, I'm pushing all the aligns really hard because
I actually think you're right. I think we're are at
a point where actually I haven't seen recent analysis. I
looked at it maybe ten years ago, and I think,
you know, the growth in the numbers of international tourists,
international students member every student brings in three or four
other visitors in a given year, you know, there's a
(07:04):
really good case to say there must be demand starting
to build from at least New Delhi or Mumbai into
Auckland directly. So I know ourrealines on both sides are
actually very keen to try and see whether they can
work together to make that happen. But the major issue,
to be honest, Mike, is actually demand, and you've got
to make sure that. You know, when you've got capital
deployed with two big aircraft doing a daily service, you've
got to cover costs. It's expensive, but equally you've got
(07:28):
to have confidence to go grow this market. And this
is a market where the middle classes are just growing
at such a rate. I mean, Mody said to me
tonight over dinner. He said, they need two thousand more aircraft.
They started with seventy airports, they have one hundred and
fifty and they're heading to two hundred and fifty in
the next three or four years. So you know, as
people are but you know, two hundred and fifty million
people have been lifted out of poverty, and as they
(07:50):
go into the middle class, you know, they're saving money
for retirement, they want to go traveling, they want to
make sure they invest in their kids' education, and so
you know, we've got to get our share of that money.
And that's why I think, you know the time is
right to revisit air routes and direct services as well.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
While I've got you and we had Peter's on the program, yesterday.
What's your expectation of the Peter's Rubio meeting tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Well, it's just really making sure that we've got good
connectivity into the administration. I think, as I'd said to
you before, you know, President Trump and I've had a
good connection. Secretary Rubio and Peter's have actually I already
had a conversation in person. Now it's about putting that
relationship together. And obviously Judith Collins has had a good
relationship with Peter Higseth in a good call as well.
(08:31):
So really we've set up as said system last year,
if you remember where we said, we want the Secretary
of State and the Foreign Minister have a formal meeting
at least once a year, and it just means that
we cannot go into a period of time like we'd
previously experienced where there wasn't a lot of deep connectivity
at the top to top level. And so really it's
a good chance for those two to build a good
relationship talk about some issues in the region and obviously
(08:53):
around the world.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
All right, go well for the rest of the week.
Appreciate a Prime Minister Christoph Luxon out of India this morning.
For more from the Mic Hosking Breakfast. Listen live to
News Talk Set B from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
Modig overnight. How the vibes going? Did it go well?
The Prime Minister on a trade mission, of course, of
some note, Christopher Luxen is with us from India. Good morning, morning, Mike.
The meeting with Mody on a scale of one to ten, ten,
it was a love first one. You can't stand each other.
What's your number?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
That's pretty much a ten. We get on very well.
It's a good personal chemistry and good relationship there. He's
got a good sense of humor and we connected very
well in Laos and that actually is what led to
the state visit and then obviously we've accelerated things from there.
But you know, he approaches things in a similar way
that I think about things around delivery results, how you
get delivery out of a team in your public service.
(00:38):
So no, we ken it really well, really well.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
How much time was spent on the FTA specifically.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, there's been a lot of time leading up until
the announcement that I know Todd talked to you the
other day about. But from our point of view inside
the actual meetings that we had, it was, you know,
we talked about it. We know what we want to do.
We both said to our trade ministers. We wanted to
move as quickly as possible, and we said that in
front of our respective delegations, just to make sure that
the systems understood that we're expecting a response to be
(01:05):
worked through pretty quickly. So, but you know, there was
also conversations around the broader you know, defense, We've got
a big step up happening in defense and security. We
should be doing more work with India. We're actually leading
a maritime force at the moment with India as our
deputy and we've obviously got Ta Kaha coming into Mumbai
later on the week as well. So you know, we
talked about defense aspects, we talked about certainly, you know,
(01:27):
the commerce and economic aspects, but also there's a lot
of people to people connection stuff which is really important.
They're very interested in. One of the things we talked
a lot about was actually sports. I mean, they want
to make a pitch for the Olympics in twenty thirty six.
They noticed that we performed really well through the Olympics
on a per head basis, and they're interested in all
of those sorts of things so as well. So there's
quite a lot in the people to people space.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
How much actual business will be done this week from
the delegation.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Well, there's quite a bit going on. We've actually we've
just completed one day out of four. We've got another
here in New Delhi and then we do move to
a much more business orientation in the last two days
in Mumbai, which is obviously the commercial capital of India.
But you know, I think the you know, getting that
you know, really economic breakthrough, I think and being able
to kick off the you know, the FTA negotiations is
(02:15):
really important. I mean this morning as I check in
with the delegations each morning and get them to do
a round table, and I was just you know, talking
to you know, Pan Pacific and they were talking about
their wood products that are sold into India. Well, they
experience a five to ten percent tariff typically that they
don't experience out of Australia. Wine. You know, there's a
whole bunch of products, you know, apples that actually have
(02:36):
huge tariffs attached with them and the Australians don't have it. So,
you know, we know we've got work to do. There'll
be some sensitive issues on both sides, but you know,
I'm very comfortable with the relationship. We're built that we
can work them through quite practically.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Where where does dairies sit or where will it sit
or how do you handle it?
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Well, what we what we don't do is say we're
going to walk away, because that will be a hard conversation.
And I get that sensitivity on the Indian side. To
give you a feel for it, Mike, about forty five
percent of Indians are engaged in agriculture and it's about
fifteen percent of their actual GDP, so it's a very
sensitive political issue.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Now.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
Having said that, we want to make sure that we
do everything we can to advance dairy with India. We're
not going to give up and have a mentality to
say we can't even try, and so that's been part
of the conversation leading into the kickoff of these They
haven't ruled that out. We haven't ruled it out, and
we know that'll be difficult, but we're determined to try
and find a way through it and do the very
very best we can for New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Is it possible it's a slow burn, so you could
do some sort of deal with dairy coming in later.
Is that the sort of scenario you look at.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Well, there's all sorts of options, But for us right now,
I do actually want to push on and do the
very very best that we can do, and I want
to make sure that we get the best deal compared
to any other country around dairy and we protect ourselves
in that negotiation. So I'm sure there's lots of ways
we can play that. There'll be some other asks from
the Indian side, I suspect as well, and other things
(04:02):
that will come up from our side, but you know,
the key thing is I want to push on now
and get this thing resolved and done. What's the timeline
on it, Well, I mean promise to modion. I didn't
put a time frame on it, but suffice to say,
we made it very clear that we're expecting to make
good progress on it through the course of this year.
And you know, I think, actually, frankly, given some of
(04:23):
the work and conversations that have already happened, and given
the relationships that we've got at the top, top level,
there's no reason why we shouldn't have an expectation we
should be able to try and push really hard to
try and do as much of it as we can
this year. But you know, you never can put a
timeline on it. We will negotiate hard. They will negotiate hard.
I've done a lot of business in India here and
my past life, and I can tell you they are
(04:44):
the most some pretty brutal negotiations. But it's really important
that we do the very best we can. We secure
the best outcome we can. So it will take as
long as it takes. But you know, to be honest,
today and our bilaterals, we were making it pretty clear
to our teams on all sides that we wanted to
get on with it. And that's really helpful, big large
Indian system that's you know, got to negotiate agreements with
the US now, you know, we want to make sure
(05:06):
the system knows that actually this is a priority for
both prime ministers and let's get on to it.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Having said that, Ursula Vandeline EU said they have it done.
She thought by the end of the year, shouldn't we
be aiming for that in that sense and state that
and being a bit bold about it.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yes, that's my expectation privately, and I think that would
be promise to motives and we might even try and
push even harder. But you know, we will push as
hard as we can to say stay focused. We know,
you know what the lay of the land looks like,
given the work that we've put into before we even
committed to launching these negotiations. So yeah, we know where
the issues will be difficult. But actually it's about a mentality, frankly, Mike,
(05:43):
which is that you know, this is a country he
z only needs to grow and then need to get
money into people's back pockets. And when you actually have
you know, with I think in the six year period
under the previous mistrature we declined like seventeen percent with
two way trade with India. You know, it's two or
three billion, three billion dollars. Now that's hardly anything in
the scheme of a country the size that it is,
with the wealth that it has. It's our twelfth biggest partner,
it's one point five percent of our exports and deserves
(06:05):
to be much bigger than that, and we have to
try and so but I can tell you, like we've
got a great delegation with us and even tonight we've
had a fantastic function with them, just hearing some of
the excitement that they've got and whether it's in the services,
whether it's in the sports world, where it's in the
education world, even the primary industries. There's you know, we've
got a lot of value added products and services that
(06:25):
are unavailable here in this market. So I think there's
lots of ways to skin this cat.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Explain and you would be an expert in this area
from a previous life. Explain to me. Given the immigration flow,
particularly from India to New Zealand, why is it that
the New Zealand doesn't go direct? Why can't I go
from Auckland to Delhi, Orkland, Tommy Auckland at anywhere in India.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yeah, well, I'm pushing all the aligns really hard because
I actually think you're right. I think we're are at
a point where actually I haven't seen recent analysis. I
looked at it maybe ten years ago, and I think,
you know, the growth in the numbers of international tourists,
international students member every student brings in three or four
other visitors in a given year, you know, there's a
(07:04):
really good case to say there must be demand starting
to build from at least New Delhi or Mumbai into
Auckland directly. So I know ourrealines on both sides are
actually very keen to try and see whether they can
work together to make that happen. But the major issue,
to be honest, Mike, is actually demand, and you've got
to make sure that. You know, when you've got capital
deployed with two big aircraft doing a daily service, you've
got to cover costs. It's expensive, but equally you've got
(07:28):
to have confidence to go grow this market. And this
is a market where the middle classes are just growing
at such a rate. I mean, Mody said to me
tonight over dinner. He said, they need two thousand more aircraft.
They started with seventy airports, they have one hundred and
fifty and they're heading to two hundred and fifty in
the next three or four years. So you know, as
people are but you know, two hundred and fifty million
people have been lifted out of poverty, and as they
(07:50):
go into the middle class, you know, they're saving money
for retirement, they want to go traveling, they want to
make sure they invest in their kids' education, and so
you know, we've got to get our share of that money.
And that's why I think, you know the time is
right to revisit air routes and direct services as well.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
While I've got you and we had Peter's on the program, yesterday.
What's your expectation of the Peter's Rubio meeting tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Well, it's just really making sure that we've got good
connectivity into the administration. I think, as I'd said to
you before, you know, President Trump and I've had a
good connection. Secretary Rubio and Peter's have actually I already
had a conversation in person. Now it's about putting that
relationship together. And obviously Judith Collins has had a good
relationship with Peter Higseth in a good call as well.
(08:31):
So really we've set up as said system last year,
if you remember where we said, we want the Secretary
of State and the Foreign Minister have a formal meeting
at least once a year, and it just means that
we cannot go into a period of time like we'd
previously experienced where there wasn't a lot of deep connectivity
at the top to top level. And so really it's
a good chance for those two to build a good
relationship talk about some issues in the region and obviously
(08:53):
around the world.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
All right, go well for the rest of the week.
Appreciate a Prime Minister Christoph Luxon out of India this morning.
For more from the Mic Hosking Breakfast. Listen live to
News Talk Set B from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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