Christopher Luxon says he has no regrets about the Treaty Principles Bill.
Parliament's Justice Committee has recommended the bill not proceed when it returns to the House, after public submissions were overwhelmingly opposed to it.
The Prime Minister says it's time for the debate to end.
He told Mike Hosking allowing the bill to proceed to committee stage, but refusing to support it any further, is the right approach.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Prime Minister is with us. Good to see you,
good to see it. Do you expect to see a
global recession?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I think the tariffs and trade wars are going to
cause huge pressure economically, no doubt about it. It'll lead
to rising inflation, there'll be currency challenges, they'll be slow
down in economic growth. And that's why we just don't
think it's the right thing. You know, tariffs, trade war
is not the way to go forward. Actually hurts lots
of countries, all countries, I think ultimately, and so it's
a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Do you expect the EU to come back like China
has over the weekend?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, I mean that the noises everyone wants to go
into full retaliatory mode and trade war mode, and I
just think that's going to be bad, bad outcomes for everybody.
You've obviously got a lot of countries now that have
had the retaliatory higher rates of tariffs coming back to
the government, coming back to the Trump administration to say otherwise.
But I mean it's interesting, Mike, having lived in the US,
that private sector will slow up big time. It'll stop
(00:50):
on a dime. And you've seen that even over the weekend.
People don't buy the new car, because the new car
is going to be twenty five percent, it's more expensive.
Businesses don't go off and invest plant and cap on
growth and actually start to sort of kick for touch
rather than play to win. And the only loser and
all of that is going to be the US consumer.
It's going to be paying a lot more and as
a result, the US economy, when it's a quarter to
a third of the total global economy, that has flow
(01:13):
on effects everywhere. So you know, we are in quite
good shape, you know, relatively speaking. I think we're quite
well positioned with the product mix that we sell and
the demand for our products and services. And that's why
we're out in the world trying to drum up business
and other places as well. Can you explain whose logic No,
I mean, I just have been a person for a
long time just doesn't believe that tariff's work. I mean,
(01:34):
all that happens as you end up just piling on
cost to the consumer in your own country. It's the
same reason why we won't retaliate with a ten percent
tariff the other way, because Franklin's just hurts New Zealand
workers big time. So it's not good. We disagree with
the approach. It's not a surprise. I mean, the President
campaigned very strongly on this through his election campaign. But
(01:54):
rubbers hitting the road now because it will cause disruption economically.
But I'd just say to you, I think relative to
other countries, the kind of products we are selling are
in huge demand across the Indo Pacific region, and we
have lots of places to sell products too, And that's
what I've been pushing.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Do you see a material shift? So red meat is
probably your best story. We sell now red meat to
the Americans more than we sell to anybody in the world.
Where does that red meat go? Does it go to
America plus or does it go to somewhere else?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
For Look, here's the deal. You're right, red meats the
number one export that we've got into the US. But
when you talk to that sector, they have done a
very good job of tailoring their products to American consumers.
And you've got to remember in the US it's three
hundred and sixty million people. You've got people that are
largely recession proof, and if you find the right seam
of gold, that is wealthy consumers that actually, you know,
(02:44):
we haven't had a free trade agreement. We've out dealt
with tariffs in the US system for some time, and
our guys, through better targeting of their products and finding
those niches, are able to get in their zespri for example,
about to go launch full bore into the US. Spoke
to them on the day of the tariffs and then
before they still feel like this huge opportunity and so
our nimbleness and our relative competitiveness compared to other countries
(03:07):
I think means that people's experts still feel they can
do well. But having said that, we want to double
exports everywhere, that means trading and selling stuff everywhere.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, Truty principles builders that go back to the House
this week.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It will come out of the Yes, it's coming back
into the House this.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Week, so as it did this week.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, it'll be depending on the Leader of the House
as to when it's scheduled. But you know, it's got
to come to an end. I think, you know, we've
had an aeration of the issues. There's been strong views
on all sides of that debate, and now we've got
to bring it too close.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Indeed, does it go back to you in some way,
shape or form of your negotiating skills or lack of.
Either back it and let it see it's or kill
it one or the other, because what you've given this
country is this half baked shambles basically.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, I mean we didn't want to do it at all,
act wanted to go to a full blow and referendum.
We found the compromise, yep, I get it compromises what's
necessary in an mpronment.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Even if it achieves nothing of waste everyone.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Well, I mean you know, from you know, the act
point of view, there was an aeration of views on
all sides, I guess, and you know now we're at
a place where it's it's going to come to.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Any but no regrets on your part.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
No, I mean like the reality of an immature MMP
environment where you're trying and bring three parties together that
have a lot of policies that are aligned, but also
policies that are different and views that are different. You
have to compromise and find a way through. That's what
the New Zone people demand us to do with an
MMP system that they've given us to work with. And
so that does mean you've got compromise from time to time.
It does mean that you've actually got, you know, you
(04:35):
go through like we have on Treaty principle spill, you know,
an eration of the views. People have strong views on
all sides of it, but it is now time to
bring it to a close and focus on what matters most.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
The mona WHENUI the report came out Friday. As much
as you don't want to criticize people who I'm sure
went through very difficult times, does that, in its microcosmic
way not some up some of the problems of this country.
People who weren't trained properly, shouldn't have been doing the job,
a ship that wasn't certified properly and sink well.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think there's you know, we.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Want to mean, what part of that's a good news story.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
None of that's a good news story. I mean, the
only good news story out of that is that seventy
five people were able to keep their lives. And I actually,
given the events of what actually happened at that moment,
I thought, you know, we're at very high risk of
having lost some people, and that would have been absolutely
just a different level of tragedy. Again, this is kit yes,
and it's incredibly frustrating, and it's clearly this human era
(05:27):
that's been the primary reason for this incident. But look,
I mean, we have to invest in New Zealanders and
we have to improve our capacity and our professionalism and
our skills. If we're going to access and create kids
that are going to be AI leaders and build your
four lane highway to Funga, which you desperately need and want,
how the hell a they supposed to do it? If
half of them can't read by at the level they
(05:49):
need to be for it, A five can't do meths
they need to be.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
But that is New Zealand, isn't it the ship that
sinks manned by people who weren't trained properly.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Oh I disagree, I mean I disagree. There there are
New Zealanders. We are genuinely world class, and we can
be world class. But that is a reminder that we
need to continue to invest in our own skills and
to make sure that we are setting our kids up
and our grand kids up so they can compete with
the kids from Singapore for what are a lot of
high paying jobs out there in the world that we
have to get home and bring back home here.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So this morning you've released this Q two. Yes, of
what are you taking are these quarterly plans? Like I reckon,
can I just bring to your attention number thirteen? Well,
to be fair to you, Q one, you've ticked off everyone,
I think bar two or three, whatever it is, So
you've really got there. Do you run the risk? You
see parst legislation to remove barriers to the use of
overseas building products, to increase competition, reduced costs. So that's
(06:41):
your board and all the various products, et cetera. So
you've made an announcement on that, you're now making another
announcement on that of something. You will see what I'm saying.
There's a lot of announcements going on here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
No, so let me explain. So there's a couple of things.
First and foremost, for a bill to become law, you've
got to go through three readings this bill, right, So
it's a process of you put a bill into the
Parliament and then goes into typically a six month select
Comitee process where a public and stakeholder get to comment
on it, then comes back for a second reading, gets enhanced,
then in third reading and then it becomes law. So
(07:12):
you've got to deal with that process. We can truncate
some of that stuff, and that's when we use something
called urgency. But equally, the reason I do those quarterly
plans is to focus the public service and also the
coalition government and ministers, because I think you know, in
the past, what you saw was actually a public service
that had no direction from ministers and from a government.
And as a result, now every public servant gets that,
(07:35):
all the CEOs get that, they know what they've got
to work towards, which is actually, now we've talked about
that product overseas products, we've understood the case for it,
we've made the case for it. The public go, yeah,
that's good, and now we've actually got to make that
more and that's what meaning past the legislation means.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Okay, so the guy who was running O ring at
Tomaruki on Friday quit. I didn't realize he'd been away
sick since September. Is he genuinely sick? And if he
is genuinely sick, that's fine, and we feel bad for him.
Why is you still running an organization that needs a
massive amount of overhaul.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, I'm not going to go into that individual case,
but there is genuinely a very serious you know, sickness
and health issue there and we wish him all the
very best. We've had acting sees and ce in place
since he has been on sick leave. But look, that
is an organization that has been underperforming for a long
period of time. There's been endless reviews and we now
(08:24):
need to actually deal with that because you know clearly
we're not getting good results of good outcomes there.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
No shanean dot Jones. I'm assuming you're aware of the story.
Over the week. I called Shane, what do we do
about that? Because you're lucky you've got people looking after you.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, I think, Look, I mean it's really you know,
it's interesting what you go off overseas and honestly, the
MP's and the prime ministers live in real bubbles because
there is just twenty four cars around you and when
you move through a city, it's just there's two ambulances,
there's you know, it's just banana. It's right, and we
in New Zealand want to try and maintain this thing
that I can walk through an airport and be accessible,
(08:58):
I can go to do a lepro on for day
night with Amanda and it's actually people are going to
be fine with me. Being out and about being appropriate,
approachable and accessible, but equally there are serious risks and threats. Sadly,
you know that there are people who get very fixated
or are very angry about a particular issue or policy
and therefore direct it at you as a politician or
prime minister. So you know, we're trying to find that
(09:19):
balance of getting making sure that there's enough security and
support for families in particulars. It's tough as a promise
when your wife and your kids get Missus Jones does
not deserve No, she does not. So none of that
is acceptable whatsoever. And I think you know New Zealand needs.
You know, we want to be in a place where
we can be accessible and approach with politicians, which is
highly unique compared to what happens around the world, and
(09:40):
actually still have security. It's interesting living in the States.
I remember talking to Obama about it. You know, like
most of those senators arrived by private planners to come
in to do their week in Parliament. At your equivalence,
you know, whereas we run into people in the airports
and we're talking to our colleagues on the opposite sides,
and so that you don't want to lose that somehow.
So we've got to find this balance. And it's a
(10:01):
challe dual leaper any good outstanding. As I said to
you last year, best song of the Year, Chris Stapleton,
do a leaper. Yep. You got to listen to that
song outstanding.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
You appreciate it. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
The Prime Minister is with us. Good to see you,
good to see it. Do you expect to see a
global recession?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I think the tariffs and trade wars are going to
cause huge pressure economically, no doubt about it. It'll lead
to rising inflation, there'll be currency challenges, they'll be slow
down in economic growth. And that's why we just don't
think it's the right thing. You know, tariffs, trade war
is not the way to go forward. Actually hurts lots
of countries, all countries, I think ultimately, and so it's
a real challenge.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Do you expect the EU to come back like China
has over the weekend?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, I mean that the noises everyone wants to go
into full retaliatory mode and trade war mode, and I
just think that's going to be bad, bad outcomes for everybody.
You've obviously got a lot of countries now that have
had the retaliatory higher rates of tariffs coming back to
the government, coming back to the Trump administration to say otherwise.
But I mean it's interesting, Mike, having lived in the US,
that private sector will slow up big time. It'll stop
(00:50):
on a dime. And you've seen that even over the weekend.
People don't buy the new car, because the new car
is going to be twenty five percent, it's more expensive.
Businesses don't go off and invest plant and cap on
growth and actually start to sort of kick for touch
rather than play to win. And the only loser and
all of that is going to be the US consumer.
It's going to be paying a lot more and as
a result, the US economy, when it's a quarter to
a third of the total global economy, that has flow
(01:13):
on effects everywhere. So you know, we are in quite
good shape, you know, relatively speaking. I think we're quite
well positioned with the product mix that we sell and
the demand for our products and services. And that's why
we're out in the world trying to drum up business
and other places as well. Can you explain whose logic No,
I mean, I just have been a person for a
long time just doesn't believe that tariff's work. I mean,
(01:34):
all that happens as you end up just piling on
cost to the consumer in your own country. It's the
same reason why we won't retaliate with a ten percent
tariff the other way, because Franklin's just hurts New Zealand
workers big time. So it's not good. We disagree with
the approach. It's not a surprise. I mean, the President
campaigned very strongly on this through his election campaign. But
(01:54):
rubbers hitting the road now because it will cause disruption economically.
But I'd just say to you, I think relative to
other countries, the kind of products we are selling are
in huge demand across the Indo Pacific region, and we
have lots of places to sell products too, And that's
what I've been pushing.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Do you see a material shift? So red meat is
probably your best story. We sell now red meat to
the Americans more than we sell to anybody in the world.
Where does that red meat go? Does it go to
America plus or does it go to somewhere else?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
For Look, here's the deal. You're right, red meats the
number one export that we've got into the US. But
when you talk to that sector, they have done a
very good job of tailoring their products to American consumers.
And you've got to remember in the US it's three
hundred and sixty million people. You've got people that are
largely recession proof, and if you find the right seam
of gold, that is wealthy consumers that actually, you know,
(02:44):
we haven't had a free trade agreement. We've out dealt
with tariffs in the US system for some time, and
our guys, through better targeting of their products and finding
those niches, are able to get in their zespri for example,
about to go launch full bore into the US. Spoke
to them on the day of the tariffs and then
before they still feel like this huge opportunity and so
our nimbleness and our relative competitiveness compared to other countries
(03:07):
I think means that people's experts still feel they can
do well. But having said that, we want to double
exports everywhere, that means trading and selling stuff everywhere.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Okay, Truty principles builders that go back to the House
this week.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
It will come out of the Yes, it's coming back
into the House this.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Week, so as it did this week.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Well, it'll be depending on the Leader of the House
as to when it's scheduled. But you know, it's got
to come to an end. I think, you know, we've
had an aeration of the issues. There's been strong views
on all sides of that debate, and now we've got
to bring it too close.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Indeed, does it go back to you in some way,
shape or form of your negotiating skills or lack of.
Either back it and let it see it's or kill
it one or the other, because what you've given this
country is this half baked shambles basically.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, I mean we didn't want to do it at all,
act wanted to go to a full blow and referendum.
We found the compromise, yep, I get it compromises what's
necessary in an mpronment.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Even if it achieves nothing of waste everyone.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
Well, I mean you know, from you know, the act
point of view, there was an aeration of views on
all sides, I guess, and you know now we're at
a place where it's it's going to come to.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Any but no regrets on your part.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
No, I mean like the reality of an immature MMP
environment where you're trying and bring three parties together that
have a lot of policies that are aligned, but also
policies that are different and views that are different. You
have to compromise and find a way through. That's what
the New Zone people demand us to do with an
MMP system that they've given us to work with. And
so that does mean you've got compromise from time to time.
It does mean that you've actually got, you know, you
(04:35):
go through like we have on Treaty principle spill, you know,
an eration of the views. People have strong views on
all sides of it, but it is now time to
bring it to a close and focus on what matters most.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
The mona WHENUI the report came out Friday. As much
as you don't want to criticize people who I'm sure
went through very difficult times, does that, in its microcosmic
way not some up some of the problems of this country.
People who weren't trained properly, shouldn't have been doing the job,
a ship that wasn't certified properly and sink well.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
I think there's you know, we.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Want to mean, what part of that's a good news story.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
None of that's a good news story. I mean, the
only good news story out of that is that seventy
five people were able to keep their lives. And I actually,
given the events of what actually happened at that moment,
I thought, you know, we're at very high risk of
having lost some people, and that would have been absolutely
just a different level of tragedy. Again, this is kit yes,
and it's incredibly frustrating, and it's clearly this human era
(05:27):
that's been the primary reason for this incident. But look,
I mean, we have to invest in New Zealanders and
we have to improve our capacity and our professionalism and
our skills. If we're going to access and create kids
that are going to be AI leaders and build your
four lane highway to Funga, which you desperately need and want,
how the hell a they supposed to do it? If
half of them can't read by at the level they
(05:49):
need to be for it, A five can't do meths
they need to be.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
But that is New Zealand, isn't it the ship that
sinks manned by people who weren't trained properly.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Oh I disagree, I mean I disagree. There there are
New Zealanders. We are genuinely world class, and we can
be world class. But that is a reminder that we
need to continue to invest in our own skills and
to make sure that we are setting our kids up
and our grand kids up so they can compete with
the kids from Singapore for what are a lot of
high paying jobs out there in the world that we
have to get home and bring back home here.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
So this morning you've released this Q two. Yes, of
what are you taking are these quarterly plans? Like I reckon,
can I just bring to your attention number thirteen? Well,
to be fair to you, Q one, you've ticked off everyone,
I think bar two or three, whatever it is, So
you've really got there. Do you run the risk? You
see parst legislation to remove barriers to the use of
overseas building products, to increase competition, reduced costs. So that's
(06:41):
your board and all the various products, et cetera. So
you've made an announcement on that, you're now making another
announcement on that of something. You will see what I'm saying.
There's a lot of announcements going on here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
No, so let me explain. So there's a couple of things.
First and foremost, for a bill to become law, you've
got to go through three readings this bill, right, So
it's a process of you put a bill into the
Parliament and then goes into typically a six month select
Comitee process where a public and stakeholder get to comment
on it, then comes back for a second reading, gets enhanced,
then in third reading and then it becomes law. So
(07:12):
you've got to deal with that process. We can truncate
some of that stuff, and that's when we use something
called urgency. But equally, the reason I do those quarterly
plans is to focus the public service and also the
coalition government and ministers, because I think you know, in
the past, what you saw was actually a public service
that had no direction from ministers and from a government.
And as a result, now every public servant gets that,
(07:35):
all the CEOs get that, they know what they've got
to work towards, which is actually, now we've talked about
that product overseas products, we've understood the case for it,
we've made the case for it. The public go, yeah,
that's good, and now we've actually got to make that
more and that's what meaning past the legislation means.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Okay, so the guy who was running O ring at
Tomaruki on Friday quit. I didn't realize he'd been away
sick since September. Is he genuinely sick? And if he
is genuinely sick, that's fine, and we feel bad for him.
Why is you still running an organization that needs a
massive amount of overhaul.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yeah, I'm not going to go into that individual case,
but there is genuinely a very serious you know, sickness
and health issue there and we wish him all the
very best. We've had acting sees and ce in place
since he has been on sick leave. But look, that
is an organization that has been underperforming for a long
period of time. There's been endless reviews and we now
(08:24):
need to actually deal with that because you know clearly
we're not getting good results of good outcomes there.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
No shanean dot Jones. I'm assuming you're aware of the story.
Over the week. I called Shane, what do we do
about that? Because you're lucky you've got people looking after you.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Yeah, I think, Look, I mean it's really you know,
it's interesting what you go off overseas and honestly, the
MP's and the prime ministers live in real bubbles because
there is just twenty four cars around you and when
you move through a city, it's just there's two ambulances,
there's you know, it's just banana. It's right, and we
in New Zealand want to try and maintain this thing
that I can walk through an airport and be accessible,
(08:58):
I can go to do a lepro on for day
night with Amanda and it's actually people are going to
be fine with me. Being out and about being appropriate,
approachable and accessible, but equally there are serious risks and threats. Sadly,
you know that there are people who get very fixated
or are very angry about a particular issue or policy
and therefore direct it at you as a politician or
prime minister. So you know, we're trying to find that
(09:19):
balance of getting making sure that there's enough security and
support for families in particulars. It's tough as a promise
when your wife and your kids get Missus Jones does
not deserve No, she does not. So none of that
is acceptable whatsoever. And I think you know New Zealand needs.
You know, we want to be in a place where
we can be accessible and approach with politicians, which is
highly unique compared to what happens around the world, and
(09:40):
actually still have security. It's interesting living in the States.
I remember talking to Obama about it. You know, like
most of those senators arrived by private planners to come
in to do their week in Parliament. At your equivalence,
you know, whereas we run into people in the airports
and we're talking to our colleagues on the opposite sides,
and so that you don't want to lose that somehow.
So we've got to find this balance. And it's a
(10:01):
challe dual leaper any good outstanding. As I said to
you last year, best song of the Year, Chris Stapleton,
do a leaper. Yep. You got to listen to that
song outstanding.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
You appreciate it. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast,
listen live to news talks. It'd be from six am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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