May 8, 2025 • 6 mins
New Zealand Rugby has posted a $19.5 million loss for 2024.
Since NZR brought US fund manager Silver Lake on as an equity partner in June 2022, the national body has posted total accumulated losses of around $76 million over three years.
NZR is trumpeting record income of $285 million dollars against the loss.
CEO Mark Robinson told Mike Hosking that much of the deficit is as a result of investment, and putting all those aside, the deficit is just under $6 million over the last four years.
He says that they’re making choices to fund investment and growth for the future, and you can see some green shoots coming through.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
For the third year in a row, the New Zealand
rugby unions lost money. This time it's nineteen point five million.
They have rolled out plenty of defense. There's record revenue
coming in, good reserves of course, not a cash loss,
but a loss is a loss. So what's the plan.
Mark Robinson is the ends at our boss and he's
with us. Mark, good morning, Boding make when does you
stop losing money?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well? The other question could be, you know, when do
we say.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
About how about we do with my question, when do
you stop losing money?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well, well, we're always working towards a break even or
better position, and that's what we've achieved this year. You
are right in your intro and saying that put aside
and look at the adjusted result. If not for the
investment choice we made three years ago, which the whole
game agreed to when we did Project Future, and then
a late swing in effects right at the end of
(00:48):
the year, we were to break even. So the model
is improving if you look at the last or four years.
As you take the three years and the year before that,
we've generated over over a billion dollars and you put
to side the investment we've made over forty million dollars
into shoring up our stakeholders, so direct investment into the players,
provincial unions, superclubs and all our other partners And you
(01:14):
look at the investment we've made into the digital and
content space and this effect shift. Like I say, you
put that to the side. The deficit's been just under
six million dollars as an operating business across that time,
So you know you have to take into account the
fact here, Mike, when you look around the world, especially
in rugby, a lot of these losses are just straight
on sort of keeping lights on and getting the groceries
(01:35):
and all the basics. We are actually making choices to
make investment and growth for the future here, and you
can see some green shoots coming through as it relates
to Toyota signing this week, we hope some We've got
some other announcements in the next few months around partnerships,
so are definitely signaling now that our improved reach digitally,
both domestically and internationally is starting to pay dividends.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So it's top of the replacement for any awesome terms
of dollars.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Look, the properties are different, aren't they. So we've got
Toyota coming in as a as a partner on our
training kit, and we are working through a potential partnership
on the shorts. So anyos had both of those properties.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Okay, so are you close to a deal or you
can't say that on the rest of it on that we're.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Working We're always I think I've said this through the
discussions with any of us in the first quarter of
the year. We are always having conversations with partners, be
they existing ones, and making sure those relationships are really
strong and with the possibility of increasing and improving those
in terms of value or potential new ones. So that's
you know, that's the case. And as I say, i'd
(02:41):
like to think in the next sort of while we've
got more to say as it relates to those other properties.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We have anybody that you can announce this.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Year, Well that's what're working on. Yeah, and we're.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Working on don't so currently don't. I'm just trying to
work out how hard is to go to the international
market to get an international name to get on then
an all black jersey, and whether or not there's it's
slim pickings out there.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, I think by the fact that we've been able
to find Toyota as a partnership is a strong signal
that the interest is really strong. And I said that
right through, you know, from January onwards, I've been signaling
that that is evidence of that, and there'll be future
announcements may soon. I just can't put an exact date
on those. Minds.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
The money, here's my concern, and I don't have a
vested interest other than being a fan. When you're bringing
in more revenue than you ever have, which you are
so well done, and you're still losing money, something's broken.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, And we've been also very clear around that too,
And the conversations we've had for several years now is
that as the business grows and the scale increases and
revenues can continue to lift, of which we're confident of
continue to achieve, the fundamental funding frameworks we have around
(04:00):
the game need to be looked at. So that's what
this next six months is about. We've always signaled that
this is the year to try and look at the
way our funding agreements work with provincial unions, it was
the players, and through this course we have a whole
lot of things lining up for us to be able
to do that. Where those agreements come to an end
and need to be looked at. So look, we've had
a great couple of days in Wellington where we did
(04:22):
have all those stakeholders I just mentioned and others in
the rooms and that we were having meetings in and
we had some really good conversations about what the next
six months could look like. And I think the game
is aligned about the possibility. If we can do that,
then we're going to be in a fantastic space going forward.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
In simple terms, you said yesterday we need to have
a financially sustainable model. Do you have a financially sustainable
model as you sit and talk to me right now?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Breaking up? My I got you, Mike, Do.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You have a financially sustainable model as you sit here
talking to me right now.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Look, we've got a lot of work going on to
be able to present to the board at the end
of this month on what the model could look like.
And it could take a whole number of sort of
shapes and sizes and all that sort of thing. But
then ultimately is the beauty of sport and national sporting organization.
This is all about partnership and consensus eventually, so we
(05:18):
have to be able to get back in the room
with our stakeholders and partners and be able to work
through those models with them. So yeah, I mean there's
loads of ideas as to what the model could look
like and we just have to take our time and
work through this. But the pointers might be enough revenue
in the game and we continue to drive revenue. It's
just how it's a portion and allocated. And that's why
(05:40):
having a strategy that we clearly articulated to stakeholders yesterday,
aligning with that strategy where everyone can sive themselves in
that strategy, and then allocating resource on that basis and
a sustainable model is the key.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Appreciate your time, Mark Robinson, who is the New Zealand
Rugby CEO.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
What did your line break up? Just there?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
For the third year in a row, the New Zealand
rugby unions lost money. This time it's nineteen point five million.
They have rolled out plenty of defense. There's record revenue
coming in, good reserves of course, not a cash loss,
but a loss is a loss. So what's the plan.
Mark Robinson is the ends at our boss and he's
with us. Mark, good morning, Boding make when does you
stop losing money?
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Well? The other question could be, you know, when do
we say.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
About how about we do with my question, when do
you stop losing money?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well, well, we're always working towards a break even or
better position, and that's what we've achieved this year. You
are right in your intro and saying that put aside
and look at the adjusted result. If not for the
investment choice we made three years ago, which the whole
game agreed to when we did Project Future, and then
a late swing in effects right at the end of
(00:48):
the year, we were to break even. So the model
is improving if you look at the last or four years.
As you take the three years and the year before that,
we've generated over over a billion dollars and you put
to side the investment we've made over forty million dollars
into shoring up our stakeholders, so direct investment into the players,
provincial unions, superclubs and all our other partners And you
(01:14):
look at the investment we've made into the digital and
content space and this effect shift. Like I say, you
put that to the side. The deficit's been just under
six million dollars as an operating business across that time,
So you know you have to take into account the
fact here, Mike, when you look around the world, especially
in rugby, a lot of these losses are just straight
on sort of keeping lights on and getting the groceries
(01:35):
and all the basics. We are actually making choices to
make investment and growth for the future here, and you
can see some green shoots coming through as it relates
to Toyota signing this week, we hope some We've got
some other announcements in the next few months around partnerships,
so are definitely signaling now that our improved reach digitally,
both domestically and internationally is starting to pay dividends.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So it's top of the replacement for any awesome terms
of dollars.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Look, the properties are different, aren't they. So we've got
Toyota coming in as a as a partner on our
training kit, and we are working through a potential partnership
on the shorts. So anyos had both of those properties.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Okay, so are you close to a deal or you
can't say that on the rest of it on that we're.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Working We're always I think I've said this through the
discussions with any of us in the first quarter of
the year. We are always having conversations with partners, be
they existing ones, and making sure those relationships are really
strong and with the possibility of increasing and improving those
in terms of value or potential new ones. So that's
you know, that's the case. And as I say, i'd
(02:41):
like to think in the next sort of while we've
got more to say as it relates to those other properties.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We have anybody that you can announce this.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Year, Well that's what're working on. Yeah, and we're.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Working on don't so currently don't. I'm just trying to
work out how hard is to go to the international
market to get an international name to get on then
an all black jersey, and whether or not there's it's
slim pickings out there.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, I think by the fact that we've been able
to find Toyota as a partnership is a strong signal
that the interest is really strong. And I said that
right through, you know, from January onwards, I've been signaling
that that is evidence of that, and there'll be future
announcements may soon. I just can't put an exact date
on those. Minds.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
The money, here's my concern, and I don't have a
vested interest other than being a fan. When you're bringing
in more revenue than you ever have, which you are
so well done, and you're still losing money, something's broken.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Yeah, And we've been also very clear around that too,
And the conversations we've had for several years now is
that as the business grows and the scale increases and
revenues can continue to lift, of which we're confident of
continue to achieve, the fundamental funding frameworks we have around
(04:00):
the game need to be looked at. So that's what
this next six months is about. We've always signaled that
this is the year to try and look at the
way our funding agreements work with provincial unions, it was
the players, and through this course we have a whole
lot of things lining up for us to be able
to do that. Where those agreements come to an end
and need to be looked at. So look, we've had
a great couple of days in Wellington where we did
(04:22):
have all those stakeholders I just mentioned and others in
the rooms and that we were having meetings in and
we had some really good conversations about what the next
six months could look like. And I think the game
is aligned about the possibility. If we can do that,
then we're going to be in a fantastic space going forward.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
In simple terms, you said yesterday we need to have
a financially sustainable model. Do you have a financially sustainable
model as you sit and talk to me right now?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Breaking up? My I got you, Mike, Do.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You have a financially sustainable model as you sit here
talking to me right now.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Look, we've got a lot of work going on to
be able to present to the board at the end
of this month on what the model could look like.
And it could take a whole number of sort of
shapes and sizes and all that sort of thing. But
then ultimately is the beauty of sport and national sporting organization.
This is all about partnership and consensus eventually, so we
(05:18):
have to be able to get back in the room
with our stakeholders and partners and be able to work
through those models with them. So yeah, I mean there's
loads of ideas as to what the model could look
like and we just have to take our time and
work through this. But the pointers might be enough revenue
in the game and we continue to drive revenue. It's
just how it's a portion and allocated. And that's why
(05:40):
having a strategy that we clearly articulated to stakeholders yesterday,
aligning with that strategy where everyone can sive themselves in
that strategy, and then allocating resource on that basis and
a sustainable model is the key.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Appreciate your time, Mark Robinson, who is the New Zealand
Rugby CEO.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
What did your line break up? Just there?
Speaker 1 (06:05):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news Talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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