July 14, 2025 • 11 mins
Whenever there’s success at the top level of international rugby in New Zealand, more often than not there is one specific name involved.
Known as the ‘Scrum Doctor’, Mike Cron was an assistant coach for the All Blacks for more than 200 games, winning the 2011 and 2015 World Cups.
He then came out of retirement in 2022 to join the Black Ferns, helping them win a world title as well, before shifting over to join the Wallabies.
In the midst of all this, he’s written a book: ‘Coach: Lessons from an All Black Legend’.
Cron told Heather du Plessis-Allan that he’s always had a thirst for knowledge, and found ideas from looking at other elite sports.
“I’ve never been really interested in rugby coaching seminars,” he said.
“They left me a bit bland, so to speak. Y’know, they just showed you a new drill or something.”
Ballet and sumo are two sports he’s pulled ideas from, saying the key is to go in with an open mind.
“If you’ve got an open mind and you look and listen, there will be some, some bit of gold there for you.”
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, whenever there is success at the top level in
international rugby in this country, there is more often than
not one name involved, and that name is Mike Kron,
a legendary coach. He's known as the Scrum Doctor. He
was an assistant coach with the All Blacks for more
than two hundred games. He also won the twenty, twenty
eleven and twenty fifteen World Cups, or at least helped you.
He then came out of retirement to join the Black
(00:20):
Ferns in twenty two help them, we'll win a world
title too. And now he's with the Wallabies for the
last year and a half. In the midst of all
of that, he's had time to write a book. It's
called Coach Lessons from an All Black Legend and Mike
Cron is with us.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Now morning, Mike, good morning, good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Do you ever think you'd write a book?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Never? No, I never thought i'd have anything with what
writing about, to be fair.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, And now that you've written it and read it,
what do you think.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Well, it's quite interesting how much you do atf you forget,
you know, I'm seventy now, so over your lifetime you
have your memories. But once it's sort of get jogged
by my writer and I had to go away and
think about things. It's amazing how things do come floating
back from the back of the brain to the front
of the brain, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, yeah, relive it all again. I'll tell you what
I found fascinating about reading parts of your book as
we got your tips from. What made you think that
you should go to the ballet.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, Well, to be honest, I've never been really interested
in rugby coaching seminars. They left me a bit blend,
so to speak. You know, they just showed you a
new drill or something. I always have this thirst for knowledge.
Still have to be fair because I know I'm not
good enough. I know I've got to get better. So
(01:42):
you go to other elite sports. I found so ballet,
for instance, they have one of the worst records for
injury of what we loosely turned turf toe, which is
a problem under your big toe from jumping and landing
a lot and where you get it. And rugby quite
a bit, particularly in the hemisphere, from playing on hard services,
(02:03):
which we do. So I was interested to see how
they handled that, and out of that I found a
bit of gold about how they prevent that in ballet,
which I then passed back on to the medical staff
and the All Blacks, and we coached slightly differently.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So do you think because you also went and had
to look at the sumo wrestlers, did that inform how
to pack a scrum?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
No? No, I went and sat a week there in
the summer wrestling camp. I didn't know what I was
looking at. That's the first thing. Don't go in with
preconceived ideas. Just go in with an open mind. And
I was lucky enough I was allowed to video because
quite often when you go into other places, they are
very protective. But in the sumo camp, I was allowed
(02:50):
to video, so I videoed them. Every morning they do
an hour for the junior boys, then an ow the
intermediate guys, and an hour for the senior guys. And
I didn't know what I've seen. I would have a
clue and I got home. There's got to be something
I'm missing, you know, And there must have been. Three
months later I went back over the footage and I
just found that the last thing they do when they
(03:11):
came out of the blocks to attack their opponent is
they sort of crunched their toes into the ground and
then at leased to explode and that's what gave them
that force and power to get off the mark. And
I thought that's pretty interesting, So I brought that back
and included that and part of my coaching.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Do you think that it doesn't matter what elite sport
you go to, but if you are at the elite level,
there is something to learn?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Definitely? One again, I think so long should do a
lot of places I've gone into they said, well, what
are you going there for? I don't know, you know,
but I'm sure if you've got an open mind and
you look and listen, there will be some bit of
gold there for you. You know, Like one week I
went into cage fighters for a week and the Gold
(03:56):
Coast and came back into the ballet. You know, you
couldn't get two more verse sports that I learned something
from Bath.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
The impression that I get from you, Mike, is that
you you're all about continuous improvement, right, and you can
improve from everywhere and you must always improve. Is that
not all? Is it not exhausting?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
It can be, but exciting, isn't it? You know? Like,
like as I said in the book, the one thing
I live off when I'm for myself and for my
athletes that I coach, no matter who. Learning is motivation
and motivation is enjoyment. Yeah, so by doing this, you're
actually learning which motivates you. And if you're motivated, you're
(04:36):
actually you know, you're enjoying life, aren't you. Now?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
You tell a story about Andrew Hall and he was
not the start you did. You guys were not picking
him in the starting lineup and he came to he
got you obviously got on the ras or something one
night and he said to you, why is that? And
eventually you told him the truth was that you did
not think that he was technically up to it to
scrummage with the best in the world. And that changed everything.
And after that he actually took some coaching and then
(05:02):
improved himself and that after that you learned. Honesty is
you know, really important. But do you think honesty is
always importantly? Do you always go in and tell people
what they need to hear?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes? A different levels. You've got to know, like anything,
whether you're coaching someone or whether you're talking to someone,
you've got to know who you're talking to. Yeah, and
different if you're talking to a ten year old lad
or girl to a fifty test all black, and you would, then,
you know, do that accordingly. But Andrew I learned so
(05:38):
much of him because it was brutal honesty back at me.
I was sugarcoating, not giving him accurate feedback because one is,
you know, we had a pretty good friendship, and two
is in all honesty, I didn't really want to confront
that situation because it was difficult. People don't it's easier
to forget or put something under the carpet actually confront it.
(06:01):
And from that learning that I got from Andrew that
night about being honest, and I was letting him down.
That's the thing. I was letting the athlete down by
not being honest. I find a whole lot easier after that,
and quite often when I'm talking to young men or
women and I have to give honest, brutal feedback. I
told him that story, and I say, you know, if
(06:23):
I didn't care about you, I wouldn't be honest. I
could bullshit you and pushing out the door, you know,
tell you what you want to hear. But because I
care about you, because I think you've got a good
future and you deserve my honest answer. Now, I'm not
saying I'm right by any stretch of the imagination. I'm
just saying what I believe, and then we can work out.
(06:43):
I think that's a great starting point. And also getting permission,
you know, like when I talk to athletes, you know,
and you're going to give some feedback, you know, and
it is harsh. Sometimes I'll ask them, you know, how
honest do you want me to be? You know? One,
I can shut it it a bit. In tenotally brutally
honest and generally at top level. They also no, no,
(07:04):
I want to hear. I want to hear exactly I
want to.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Ten Probably like you, Mike, that they're constantly wanting to improve,
aren't they.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Mike?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Did you see that thing that the Safas pulled against
Italy with a little scrum at the start of the
game the other day?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I remember, probably forty years ago, some
teams to get deliberately out on the fall and then
go back to a scrum to try and do that. Yeah,
I haven't seen that for forty years. Probably so Rassi
coming up, smit ears dredging them up. Yeah, do you
like it? What? Ah? It's a tactic that I just
(07:39):
think I'm sort of a purist. I suppose, you know,
I coached that way. I don't like you know, I
just like doing things correctly. I find out a wee
bit just a bit harsh. You know. It's just play
the game that it's meant to be played and get
on with it.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
What do you think of the Blues wanting to move
to Mount Smart potentially?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, well, you know, they have very good reasons for it.
You know, it's a good field. I mean, I member
the or Blacks we trained there. It's a good field,
good facility, you know, so I'll certainly have their reasons
for it. And Andrew Hall, the boss there, he'll certainly
be making good decisions.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Won't Part of the reason be that the crowds have
dropped off and we just don't get enough people to
kind of pack out Eden Park.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's probably true, you know, because we have
live TV and you've got to drive there, and I
found Eden Parks not the easiest place to get to sometimes. Yeah,
I'm really looking forward, Sorry, Mike.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
What I was going to say is somebody pitched this
idea to me right that what we need to do
is we need to make super rugby more exciting. And
what you're probably going to hate this because you're a scrumman,
But what we need to see more is the running game.
So why don't we change the rules to give you
greater points for a try that comes off a running
game than just pushing over the line. And that way
we get more fans because it's engaging. Again, what do
you think?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
No, I probably wouldn't agree with that, but I actually
found this year super rugby was enjoyable to watch. The
stats went up watching and that came about through referring
being a stricter on people trying to slow the game
down intentionally to have a rest for tactics. Yeah, and
(09:26):
they made a couple of minor law changes. It was fast.
You couldn't get it much faster because the athlete wouldn't
be able to survive it. I think, you know you're covering,
you know, eight nine kilometers in a game of repeated
speed with collisions. So the ball and play now is
(09:46):
more than what it has been. So I think I
think the game itself is a good place. I think
the thing is for people to and I'm the same
for me. In christ that temporary stadium, I know it
was great it did a good job, but it's the
last place i'd want to go on a cold night.
Whereas the new stadium's getting built. Them all open next year,
(10:08):
you know I'll have to get in there.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, I'm in a good stadium. Is a good thing,
isn't it. How are you feeling about the game against
the lines? You're feeling confident?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
That wouldn't be a word i'd use. No, excited. Yes,
you know we're rank outsiders, which the way the way
it is. You know we're working hard. I'm here at
the moment in Brisbane with the team and you know
we're working away as hard as we can. That there
are a great bunch of young men. We've got a good,
(10:39):
good management crew. Everything's gone pretty well to plan, to
be fair, you know, because the things are fair of
like budge scares through your team or serious injuries to
key players. You know we're going okay that way. We
won't know how good we are until we get out.
You know, we've shadow box a fair bit. We've got
(11:00):
given the ring on said day and just see how
we go.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Good luck with it, Mike, It's been a delight to
talk to you, and they are very, very lucky to
have you that is Mike Kron And by the way,
if you want to have a read of Mike's book
Coach Lessons from an All Black Legend is what it's
called for. More from the Mic Asking Breakfast Listen live
to news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Now, whenever there is success at the top level in
international rugby in this country, there is more often than
not one name involved, and that name is Mike Kron,
a legendary coach. He's known as the Scrum Doctor. He
was an assistant coach with the All Blacks for more
than two hundred games. He also won the twenty, twenty
eleven and twenty fifteen World Cups, or at least helped you.
He then came out of retirement to join the Black
(00:20):
Ferns in twenty two help them, we'll win a world
title too. And now he's with the Wallabies for the
last year and a half. In the midst of all
of that, he's had time to write a book. It's
called Coach Lessons from an All Black Legend and Mike
Cron is with us.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Now morning, Mike, good morning, good morning.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Do you ever think you'd write a book?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Never? No, I never thought i'd have anything with what
writing about, to be fair.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, And now that you've written it and read it,
what do you think.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Well, it's quite interesting how much you do atf you forget,
you know, I'm seventy now, so over your lifetime you
have your memories. But once it's sort of get jogged
by my writer and I had to go away and
think about things. It's amazing how things do come floating
back from the back of the brain to the front
of the brain, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, yeah, relive it all again. I'll tell you what
I found fascinating about reading parts of your book as
we got your tips from. What made you think that
you should go to the ballet.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, Well, to be honest, I've never been really interested
in rugby coaching seminars. They left me a bit blend,
so to speak. You know, they just showed you a
new drill or something. I always have this thirst for knowledge.
Still have to be fair because I know I'm not
good enough. I know I've got to get better. So
(01:42):
you go to other elite sports. I found so ballet,
for instance, they have one of the worst records for
injury of what we loosely turned turf toe, which is
a problem under your big toe from jumping and landing
a lot and where you get it. And rugby quite
a bit, particularly in the hemisphere, from playing on hard services,
(02:03):
which we do. So I was interested to see how
they handled that, and out of that I found a
bit of gold about how they prevent that in ballet,
which I then passed back on to the medical staff
and the All Blacks, and we coached slightly differently.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
So do you think because you also went and had
to look at the sumo wrestlers, did that inform how
to pack a scrum?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
No? No, I went and sat a week there in
the summer wrestling camp. I didn't know what I was
looking at. That's the first thing. Don't go in with
preconceived ideas. Just go in with an open mind. And
I was lucky enough I was allowed to video because
quite often when you go into other places, they are
very protective. But in the sumo camp, I was allowed
(02:50):
to video, so I videoed them. Every morning they do
an hour for the junior boys, then an ow the
intermediate guys, and an hour for the senior guys. And
I didn't know what I've seen. I would have a
clue and I got home. There's got to be something
I'm missing, you know, And there must have been. Three
months later I went back over the footage and I
just found that the last thing they do when they
(03:11):
came out of the blocks to attack their opponent is
they sort of crunched their toes into the ground and
then at leased to explode and that's what gave them
that force and power to get off the mark. And
I thought that's pretty interesting, So I brought that back
and included that and part of my coaching.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Do you think that it doesn't matter what elite sport
you go to, but if you are at the elite level,
there is something to learn?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Definitely? One again, I think so long should do a
lot of places I've gone into they said, well, what
are you going there for? I don't know, you know,
but I'm sure if you've got an open mind and
you look and listen, there will be some bit of
gold there for you. You know, Like one week I
went into cage fighters for a week and the Gold
(03:56):
Coast and came back into the ballet. You know, you
couldn't get two more verse sports that I learned something
from Bath.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
The impression that I get from you, Mike, is that
you you're all about continuous improvement, right, and you can
improve from everywhere and you must always improve. Is that
not all? Is it not exhausting?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
It can be, but exciting, isn't it? You know? Like,
like as I said in the book, the one thing
I live off when I'm for myself and for my
athletes that I coach, no matter who. Learning is motivation
and motivation is enjoyment. Yeah, so by doing this, you're
actually learning which motivates you. And if you're motivated, you're
(04:36):
actually you know, you're enjoying life, aren't you. Now?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
You tell a story about Andrew Hall and he was
not the start you did. You guys were not picking
him in the starting lineup and he came to he
got you obviously got on the ras or something one
night and he said to you, why is that? And
eventually you told him the truth was that you did
not think that he was technically up to it to
scrummage with the best in the world. And that changed everything.
And after that he actually took some coaching and then
(05:02):
improved himself and that after that you learned. Honesty is
you know, really important. But do you think honesty is
always importantly? Do you always go in and tell people
what they need to hear?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes? A different levels. You've got to know, like anything,
whether you're coaching someone or whether you're talking to someone,
you've got to know who you're talking to. Yeah, and
different if you're talking to a ten year old lad
or girl to a fifty test all black, and you would, then,
you know, do that accordingly. But Andrew I learned so
(05:38):
much of him because it was brutal honesty back at me.
I was sugarcoating, not giving him accurate feedback because one is,
you know, we had a pretty good friendship, and two
is in all honesty, I didn't really want to confront
that situation because it was difficult. People don't it's easier
to forget or put something under the carpet actually confront it.
(06:01):
And from that learning that I got from Andrew that
night about being honest, and I was letting him down.
That's the thing. I was letting the athlete down by
not being honest. I find a whole lot easier after that,
and quite often when I'm talking to young men or
women and I have to give honest, brutal feedback. I
told him that story, and I say, you know, if
(06:23):
I didn't care about you, I wouldn't be honest. I
could bullshit you and pushing out the door, you know,
tell you what you want to hear. But because I
care about you, because I think you've got a good
future and you deserve my honest answer. Now, I'm not
saying I'm right by any stretch of the imagination. I'm
just saying what I believe, and then we can work out.
(06:43):
I think that's a great starting point. And also getting permission,
you know, like when I talk to athletes, you know,
and you're going to give some feedback, you know, and
it is harsh. Sometimes I'll ask them, you know, how
honest do you want me to be? You know? One,
I can shut it it a bit. In tenotally brutally
honest and generally at top level. They also no, no,
(07:04):
I want to hear. I want to hear exactly I
want to.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Ten Probably like you, Mike, that they're constantly wanting to improve,
aren't they.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Mike?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Did you see that thing that the Safas pulled against
Italy with a little scrum at the start of the
game the other day?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I remember, probably forty years ago, some
teams to get deliberately out on the fall and then
go back to a scrum to try and do that. Yeah,
I haven't seen that for forty years. Probably so Rassi
coming up, smit ears dredging them up. Yeah, do you
like it? What? Ah? It's a tactic that I just
(07:39):
think I'm sort of a purist. I suppose, you know,
I coached that way. I don't like you know, I
just like doing things correctly. I find out a wee
bit just a bit harsh. You know. It's just play
the game that it's meant to be played and get
on with it.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
What do you think of the Blues wanting to move
to Mount Smart potentially?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, well, you know, they have very good reasons for it.
You know, it's a good field. I mean, I member
the or Blacks we trained there. It's a good field,
good facility, you know, so I'll certainly have their reasons
for it. And Andrew Hall, the boss there, he'll certainly
be making good decisions.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
Won't Part of the reason be that the crowds have
dropped off and we just don't get enough people to
kind of pack out Eden Park.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's probably true, you know, because we have
live TV and you've got to drive there, and I
found Eden Parks not the easiest place to get to sometimes. Yeah,
I'm really looking forward, Sorry, Mike.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
What I was going to say is somebody pitched this
idea to me right that what we need to do
is we need to make super rugby more exciting. And
what you're probably going to hate this because you're a scrumman,
But what we need to see more is the running game.
So why don't we change the rules to give you
greater points for a try that comes off a running
game than just pushing over the line. And that way
we get more fans because it's engaging. Again, what do
you think?
Speaker 2 (09:04):
No, I probably wouldn't agree with that, but I actually
found this year super rugby was enjoyable to watch. The
stats went up watching and that came about through referring
being a stricter on people trying to slow the game
down intentionally to have a rest for tactics. Yeah, and
(09:26):
they made a couple of minor law changes. It was fast.
You couldn't get it much faster because the athlete wouldn't
be able to survive it. I think, you know you're covering,
you know, eight nine kilometers in a game of repeated
speed with collisions. So the ball and play now is
(09:46):
more than what it has been. So I think I
think the game itself is a good place. I think
the thing is for people to and I'm the same
for me. In christ that temporary stadium, I know it
was great it did a good job, but it's the
last place i'd want to go on a cold night.
Whereas the new stadium's getting built. Them all open next year,
(10:08):
you know I'll have to get in there.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Yeah, I'm in a good stadium. Is a good thing,
isn't it. How are you feeling about the game against
the lines? You're feeling confident?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
That wouldn't be a word i'd use. No, excited. Yes,
you know we're rank outsiders, which the way the way
it is. You know we're working hard. I'm here at
the moment in Brisbane with the team and you know
we're working away as hard as we can. That there
are a great bunch of young men. We've got a good,
(10:39):
good management crew. Everything's gone pretty well to plan, to
be fair, you know, because the things are fair of
like budge scares through your team or serious injuries to
key players. You know we're going okay that way. We
won't know how good we are until we get out.
You know, we've shadow box a fair bit. We've got
(11:00):
given the ring on said day and just see how
we go.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
Good luck with it, Mike, It's been a delight to
talk to you, and they are very, very lucky to
have you that is Mike Kron And by the way,
if you want to have a read of Mike's book
Coach Lessons from an All Black Legend is what it's
called for. More from the Mic Asking Breakfast Listen live
to news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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