September 9, 2025 • 11 mins
Ministers from both sides of the divide are praising the Police for their handling of the Tom Phillips situation.
The four-year manhunt for Phillips ended early on Monday, when he was shot and killed by Police after he shot at an officer in rural Waikato.
The children were safely recovered and are in the care of Oranga Tamariki.
Former Police Minister Ginny Andersen says authorities have been doing their best, during the four-year search for Phillips.
She told Mike Hosking the area is very remote and a difficult part of the country to navigate, so she thinks the police did everything they could.
Police Minister Mark Mitchell told Hosking the police have been outstanding, and the huge relief is having the children in a safe situation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It is time for politics Wednesday. Ginny Anderson Marc Mitchell
both with us.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Good morning, Good morning, by.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Right, let's just do the let's just do the obvious
thing firstly and move on to some other issues. Ginny,
you first, you're as a former Minister of Police. Your
observations of the last couple of days.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Are you talking about Tom Phillips. Yes, just a tragedy,
an absolute tragedy for the community, for the family and
the children, and for the for the police officer who's
been critically injured, in his family and colleagues. So no
one wins out of situations like this, and it's it's
(00:41):
a tough time for all of New Zealand to watch
this roll out to day by day.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And from your observation, did the police over the last
four years, and you would have been part of this,
of course, do their job.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I think the police do an amazing job and this
is an incredibly complex situation. I've been into that area
myself over the last few years, have looked around and
it is a very remote and difficult part of New
Zealand to navigate, with a lot of back roads. So
I think the police did everything they could keeping in
mind that there are three children involved at the same time.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Mark, Yeah, I mean the police is quite simply have
been outstanding. The commissioner and I spent time with the
officer's family yesterday. We took his wife with us up
to the hospital to visit him. He's got a long
road to recovery, but he's got a road to recovery,
and that's what we're thankful about. Just wanted to reassure
(01:34):
him that, of course, his family going to be looked
after and have the support wrapped around that they need
and a chance to be able to acknowledge him in
the outstanding that he did. The two officers that were
with him, without a doubt, saved his life. It was
obvious that Phillips was intent on killing him through his actions.
And of course the huge relief is that now we've
got those children in a safe situation where they can
(01:57):
be looked after and get them back on a healthy
pathway to recovery as well.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Do you have a view, Mark, is it enough now
for the media that the media need to back off
and just like let this thing play out and some
of the kids to be left alone and the agencies
to do their job, or is there enough interest from
the public to know more and therefore the sort of
coverage we're starting to see as acceptable.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I think there's genuine public interests in this, of course,
and so they'll probably and the police will keep the
public updated in terms of as the investigations progress. But
I think that if I think all of us as key,
we as a country would agree that the privacy of
those children, looking after those children, giving them the best
possible start, get well, restart is what everyone has focused on.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Do you have a view, Ginny?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I think it reflects the age that we live in.
Everybody gets to be a commentator because of social media,
and when you're talking about the well being of three
young people, it does make it really difficult. They've still
got to live here in New Zealand and grow up
and allen. So my foremost concerns that their privacy and
their well being is protected, and that's a challenging time
(03:07):
given that the age we live in.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
What mark do you do? And I'm not trying to
get you in trouble or anyone in trouble. I'm just
interested in there's a suppression order here. That suppression order
does not apply clearly to social media and it will
not apply to the international media once they get their
hands on it. What do you do as a legislator?
Are we living as the horse bolted? In other words?
I mean, this is just essentially a waste of time.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, I agree with you that we live in an
age now where people are going to report things online.
But obviously, you know in our position as ministers that
we have to the courts have put out directions on
this case at the moment, which means that there are
certain things that we can't talk about and we just
have to we have to comply with that. But you're
right that international media, those that aren't that don't have
(03:53):
to comply with those rules, will will report on things
and get information out there.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So, Jenny, what's the point.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I mean, we had the same situation with the Grace
Malaane case where there were identity details released about the
offender in that instance that were not that were made
public and compromised the judicial process here in New Zealand,
and so you know, I think potentially we could take
another look at our laws, you know, around how are
they working. How are we dealing with an age of
social media when privacy needs to be protected in order
(04:23):
for the integrity of a judicial or an inquiry to
take its place in.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Your brief breakin. Sorry, it's going to say.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The point that why it's making though, is that our
laws did not extend internationally, so we cannot control what
people are doing in other countries or the locked and
don at all. In fact, quite the opposite, is it,
especially if you're taking into account young children. Yeah, a
responsibility around this is critically important, but that's not the
area that we live in now.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
It is not a couple of quick comments if you
wouldn't mind mark you on Julie Christy as in the
documentary maker she's got access apparently to some sort of
insight information from the police and is making it doco
on this. Is that acceptable in your view or not?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Absolutely, I mean she's I think she's They've been making
a doco and following this story now for a while
and they've made they've gone through all the correct protocols
and made sure that they have done things the right way.
Of course, there's some things that they have access to
some areas and and and some people, and obviously where
it's appropriate, access is blocked. But from what I understand,
(05:27):
they've gone through all the correct protocols to be able
to do that.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
How do we ask for privacy for the kids while
doing a documentary.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, that's something they're going to have to work out
and figure out, because of course, the priority around anything
that we do is going to be around the privacy
and the welfare of those children. So that is something
that police obviously will have to bring forward and work
out with Julian. The work they're doing you're.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Going to view, Jinny.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Look, i'd have to say the details. I haven't mean
privy to what they've been given access to. But my
primary concerns are these kids have to go to school
in New Zealand. They have to live, no doubt in
small town New Zealand, and so my concern is that
when you get things like that yet, it just increases
your tension on them in their lives, and that's really
my worry.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
You said something interesting, Jenny, I may have misinterpreted what
you were meaning you talked about you'd been there, it's
a difficult part of the country. What surprised me is
the reaction we've had over the last few years from
some of the people who live in that area and
support that going and it strikes me there is something
wrong with parts of New Zealand, or it's just maybe
that we're in urban New Zealand completely out of touch
(06:34):
with that particular style of New Zealand living. But it
seems to me at times a different world.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It is a different world. I've been into that road.
It's one road into essentially quite a closed community who
everyone knows each other. There's kind of a local agreement
that you only let someone by land once they pass
a test, and they all have a say on who
gets to come in. So it's a very tight knit,
closed community and it's a very difficult to Those two
(07:00):
kind of go hand in hand. So I think that
there are parts of there are parts here that would
have known where he was.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, are they sort of sovereign citizen esque?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Well, I went into the pub and they seem very nice.
I had a good chat with a number of locals
in there, and they were very welcoming and open. So
I wouldn't say so, but I'd say that everyone knows
who everyone is, and they know a lot about what
goes on locally, and it's very unusual to have a
stranger come into that community.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You agreement.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I just say that, I just think that our rural
communities are quite simply outstanding. They do look after each
other and keep an eye es for each other, but
they're no different to any other key we in the
set of values that we hold, and I think that
I think that what I would say is this is
that the police have been very clear and I'm being
clear about this as well anyone that has been supporting
and enabling him. There is now a very thorough ongoing
(07:51):
police investigation and they.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Will be how to account Okay, super quick. On another thing,
News of the morning, this ministerial and are into organized crime?
Do you agree Mark that we need a Minister of
organized Crime?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Well, I agree that we needed to have a ministerial
advisory group set up to so that we could have
a look and see that These are all recommendations that
have been forward. I'm not going to preempt it that
has to go through a full cabinet process. I'm not
going to pre empt any decisions that are going to
be in cabinet. But the one thing I would say
is that we already have already started work across government
to make sure that we have a much more joined
up approach to how we deal with international organized crime
(08:31):
and gangs and crime in this country.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Okay, Jinny, I've got yeah, well I've seen from Justice Committee.
So we've got Nicole McKee who's getting rid of all
the red tape on anti money laundering with one hand
of the government, and the other hand you've got Casey
Costello who's cracking down on an organized crime and making
sure it's tougher for gangs to do their business. So
just within this government alone, there's two quite different agendas
that they're conflicting in terms of how we have one
(08:55):
unified response.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I'm in New Zealand, so I'm inside the I'll work
with both of those ladies that we sit down together
constantly figuring out what we need to do. We're actually
making really good in roads and dealing with with both
transnational crime and organized crimes. We've just been over in
Australia and they're admiring the work that we're doing. Are
we're working across ministers. However, the mag report just gives
us a good signal in terms of how we continue
(09:19):
to build on that work.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Okay, real quick, both of you, because just to get
a comment that this is typical of the texts we're
receiving a lot of not totally but a lot of
embarrassing for police not finding the guy for four years. Pathetic, really, Ginny,
you say, well, look, I.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Think it's very difficult to understand how that the work
for the police pans out. So I'm not going to
pass judgment on New Zealand police. They work incredibly in
difficult situations and this one was a complex case. So
I think you need to have an understanding of all
those details, and I'm sure they will come out once
the investigation is complete, but I think people need to
(09:57):
see all of that information before they pass judgment.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Well, I totally reject that, and they shouldn't be passing
judgment like that if you actually have a look at
what unfolded with the arrest and the attempt at arrest
of Tom Phillips is that he had multiple firearms, he
had intent to there was no way that he was
going to be taken peacefully, and he had three children
in the bush. It presented probably the worst case scenario
(10:23):
for police in terms of trying to deal with that,
and the forefront of their minds and everything that they're
doing was the safe recovery of those children of course
they wanted a peaceful outcome with Tom Phillips himself, but
it was very clear by the actions that we saw unfold.
We now have a police officer with critical injuries in
hospital having to recover, and I think the police have
quite simply approached, have taken the right approach on this.
(10:46):
It has always been around the safety of the children.
And I think if they'd stumbled, and it would have
been easy for them to put an operation together and
go in there and try and raid the camp and
recover them. But look at what might have occurred. In fact,
probably what would have could as you know, you could
have ended up with a complete tragedy with the loss
of the children.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
All right, guys, appreciate it very much. Mike Mitchell, Ginny Anderson.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
It is time for politics Wednesday. Ginny Anderson Marc Mitchell
both with us.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Good morning, Good morning, by.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Right, let's just do the let's just do the obvious
thing firstly and move on to some other issues. Ginny,
you first, you're as a former Minister of Police. Your
observations of the last couple of days.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Are you talking about Tom Phillips. Yes, just a tragedy,
an absolute tragedy for the community, for the family and
the children, and for the for the police officer who's
been critically injured, in his family and colleagues. So no
one wins out of situations like this, and it's it's
(00:41):
a tough time for all of New Zealand to watch
this roll out to day by day.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
And from your observation, did the police over the last
four years, and you would have been part of this,
of course, do their job.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
I think the police do an amazing job and this
is an incredibly complex situation. I've been into that area
myself over the last few years, have looked around and
it is a very remote and difficult part of New
Zealand to navigate, with a lot of back roads. So
I think the police did everything they could keeping in
mind that there are three children involved at the same time.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Mark, Yeah, I mean the police is quite simply have
been outstanding. The commissioner and I spent time with the
officer's family yesterday. We took his wife with us up
to the hospital to visit him. He's got a long
road to recovery, but he's got a road to recovery,
and that's what we're thankful about. Just wanted to reassure
(01:34):
him that, of course, his family going to be looked
after and have the support wrapped around that they need
and a chance to be able to acknowledge him in
the outstanding that he did. The two officers that were
with him, without a doubt, saved his life. It was
obvious that Phillips was intent on killing him through his actions.
And of course the huge relief is that now we've
got those children in a safe situation where they can
(01:57):
be looked after and get them back on a healthy
pathway to recovery as well.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Do you have a view, Mark, is it enough now
for the media that the media need to back off
and just like let this thing play out and some
of the kids to be left alone and the agencies
to do their job, or is there enough interest from
the public to know more and therefore the sort of
coverage we're starting to see as acceptable.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I think there's genuine public interests in this, of course,
and so they'll probably and the police will keep the
public updated in terms of as the investigations progress. But
I think that if I think all of us as key,
we as a country would agree that the privacy of
those children, looking after those children, giving them the best
possible start, get well, restart is what everyone has focused on.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Do you have a view, Ginny?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I think it reflects the age that we live in.
Everybody gets to be a commentator because of social media,
and when you're talking about the well being of three
young people, it does make it really difficult. They've still
got to live here in New Zealand and grow up
and allen. So my foremost concerns that their privacy and
their well being is protected, and that's a challenging time
(03:07):
given that the age we live in.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
What mark do you do? And I'm not trying to
get you in trouble or anyone in trouble. I'm just
interested in there's a suppression order here. That suppression order
does not apply clearly to social media and it will
not apply to the international media once they get their
hands on it. What do you do as a legislator?
Are we living as the horse bolted? In other words?
I mean, this is just essentially a waste of time.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, I agree with you that we live in an
age now where people are going to report things online.
But obviously, you know in our position as ministers that
we have to the courts have put out directions on
this case at the moment, which means that there are
certain things that we can't talk about and we just
have to we have to comply with that. But you're
right that international media, those that aren't that don't have
(03:53):
to comply with those rules, will will report on things
and get information out there.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
So, Jenny, what's the point.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
I mean, we had the same situation with the Grace
Malaane case where there were identity details released about the
offender in that instance that were not that were made
public and compromised the judicial process here in New Zealand,
and so you know, I think potentially we could take
another look at our laws, you know, around how are
they working. How are we dealing with an age of
social media when privacy needs to be protected in order
(04:23):
for the integrity of a judicial or an inquiry to
take its place in.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Your brief breakin. Sorry, it's going to say.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
The point that why it's making though, is that our
laws did not extend internationally, so we cannot control what
people are doing in other countries or the locked and
don at all. In fact, quite the opposite, is it,
especially if you're taking into account young children. Yeah, a
responsibility around this is critically important, but that's not the
area that we live in now.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
It is not a couple of quick comments if you
wouldn't mind mark you on Julie Christy as in the
documentary maker she's got access apparently to some sort of
insight information from the police and is making it doco
on this. Is that acceptable in your view or not?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Absolutely, I mean she's I think she's They've been making
a doco and following this story now for a while
and they've made they've gone through all the correct protocols
and made sure that they have done things the right way.
Of course, there's some things that they have access to
some areas and and and some people, and obviously where
it's appropriate, access is blocked. But from what I understand,
(05:27):
they've gone through all the correct protocols to be able
to do that.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
How do we ask for privacy for the kids while
doing a documentary.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Well, that's something they're going to have to work out
and figure out, because of course, the priority around anything
that we do is going to be around the privacy
and the welfare of those children. So that is something
that police obviously will have to bring forward and work
out with Julian. The work they're doing you're.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Going to view, Jinny.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Look, i'd have to say the details. I haven't mean
privy to what they've been given access to. But my
primary concerns are these kids have to go to school
in New Zealand. They have to live, no doubt in
small town New Zealand, and so my concern is that
when you get things like that yet, it just increases
your tension on them in their lives, and that's really
my worry.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
You said something interesting, Jenny, I may have misinterpreted what
you were meaning you talked about you'd been there, it's
a difficult part of the country. What surprised me is
the reaction we've had over the last few years from
some of the people who live in that area and
support that going and it strikes me there is something
wrong with parts of New Zealand, or it's just maybe
that we're in urban New Zealand completely out of touch
(06:34):
with that particular style of New Zealand living. But it
seems to me at times a different world.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
It is a different world. I've been into that road.
It's one road into essentially quite a closed community who
everyone knows each other. There's kind of a local agreement
that you only let someone by land once they pass
a test, and they all have a say on who
gets to come in. So it's a very tight knit,
closed community and it's a very difficult to Those two
(07:00):
kind of go hand in hand. So I think that
there are parts of there are parts here that would
have known where he was.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, are they sort of sovereign citizen esque?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Well, I went into the pub and they seem very nice.
I had a good chat with a number of locals
in there, and they were very welcoming and open. So
I wouldn't say so, but I'd say that everyone knows
who everyone is, and they know a lot about what
goes on locally, and it's very unusual to have a
stranger come into that community.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
You agreement.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
I just say that, I just think that our rural
communities are quite simply outstanding. They do look after each
other and keep an eye es for each other, but
they're no different to any other key we in the
set of values that we hold, and I think that
I think that what I would say is this is
that the police have been very clear and I'm being
clear about this as well anyone that has been supporting
and enabling him. There is now a very thorough ongoing
(07:51):
police investigation and they.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Will be how to account Okay, super quick. On another thing,
News of the morning, this ministerial and are into organized crime?
Do you agree Mark that we need a Minister of
organized Crime?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Well, I agree that we needed to have a ministerial
advisory group set up to so that we could have
a look and see that These are all recommendations that
have been forward. I'm not going to preempt it that
has to go through a full cabinet process. I'm not
going to pre empt any decisions that are going to
be in cabinet. But the one thing I would say
is that we already have already started work across government
to make sure that we have a much more joined
up approach to how we deal with international organized crime
(08:31):
and gangs and crime in this country.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Okay, Jinny, I've got yeah, well I've seen from Justice Committee.
So we've got Nicole McKee who's getting rid of all
the red tape on anti money laundering with one hand
of the government, and the other hand you've got Casey
Costello who's cracking down on an organized crime and making
sure it's tougher for gangs to do their business. So
just within this government alone, there's two quite different agendas
that they're conflicting in terms of how we have one
(08:55):
unified response.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I'm in New Zealand, so I'm inside the I'll work
with both of those ladies that we sit down together
constantly figuring out what we need to do. We're actually
making really good in roads and dealing with with both
transnational crime and organized crimes. We've just been over in
Australia and they're admiring the work that we're doing. Are
we're working across ministers. However, the mag report just gives
us a good signal in terms of how we continue
(09:19):
to build on that work.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Okay, real quick, both of you, because just to get
a comment that this is typical of the texts we're
receiving a lot of not totally but a lot of
embarrassing for police not finding the guy for four years. Pathetic, really, Ginny,
you say, well, look, I.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Think it's very difficult to understand how that the work
for the police pans out. So I'm not going to
pass judgment on New Zealand police. They work incredibly in
difficult situations and this one was a complex case. So
I think you need to have an understanding of all
those details, and I'm sure they will come out once
the investigation is complete, but I think people need to
(09:57):
see all of that information before they pass judgment.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Well, I totally reject that, and they shouldn't be passing
judgment like that if you actually have a look at
what unfolded with the arrest and the attempt at arrest
of Tom Phillips is that he had multiple firearms, he
had intent to there was no way that he was
going to be taken peacefully, and he had three children
in the bush. It presented probably the worst case scenario
(10:23):
for police in terms of trying to deal with that,
and the forefront of their minds and everything that they're
doing was the safe recovery of those children of course
they wanted a peaceful outcome with Tom Phillips himself, but
it was very clear by the actions that we saw unfold.
We now have a police officer with critical injuries in
hospital having to recover, and I think the police have
quite simply approached, have taken the right approach on this.
(10:46):
It has always been around the safety of the children.
And I think if they'd stumbled, and it would have
been easy for them to put an operation together and
go in there and try and raid the camp and
recover them. But look at what might have occurred. In fact,
probably what would have could as you know, you could
have ended up with a complete tragedy with the loss
of the children.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
All right, guys, appreciate it very much. Mike Mitchell, Ginny Anderson.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to
news talks it'd be from six am weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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