The Finance Minister says the planned independent inquiry into Te Pati Māori's data use is important for everyone.
It's been alleged information collected at Manurewa Marae was used to help the party's election campaign, which Te Pati Māori denies.
Minister Nicola Willis says it's important to ensure Government agencies have the proper processes in place to protect people's information.
"In this case, the Te Pati Maori allegations, the allegations of Manurewa Marae - they all relate to New Zealanders' personal information."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
With us. Now we have Nikola Willis finance mister, Hey Nikola.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hello, how are you very well?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Thank you? Now, how much power does the Public Service
Commission have in this investigation?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Well, it has powers into the Public Service Acts to
conduct independent inquiries. That means it can require information from
government agencies. It can provide oversight of their decision making
and investigate what's going on. In this case, the two
party Mati allegations are the allegations of Mana a Mudrai
(00:33):
all relate to New Zealander's personal information. So the concern
that we have is to ensure that government agencies have
had the proper processes in place to protect information and
ensure that any potential conflicts of interest have been well managed.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Okay, so it can compel evidence from the government agencies,
but can it compel evidence also from other people involved
in these allegations like the White peta to trust, the
Marti Party, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
No, in the first instance, you would expect that to
be the role of the police or the Privacy Commissioner,
who have their own coercive powers in relation to allegations
that are made to them, should they choose to use
those powers. So The reason we've got the Public Service
Commissioner involved is really that we want to make sure
(01:21):
that we've got our own house and order as government,
which is to say, have government agencies acted appropriately? Have
they had the good systems and processes? Is there any
tune up that's required at our end? What are the
facts here about what's actually gone on? Because protecting New
Zealander's data goes to the heart of our democratic process
(01:42):
and we need to make sure that if any mistakes
have been made yet, they are corrected.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay, so this is going to look at, for example,
if MESD just naming an agency or statistics. New Zealand
acted quickly when they were first told these allegations.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Exactly, and also in the first place when they set
up these arrangements. Do they have appropriate safeguards in place
for the protection of people's personal information by a third
party providers? Did the safeguards work? Are there good institutional
arrangements for the way personal information is used? Was there
review to check that there were conflict if there were
(02:16):
conflicts of interest where they properly managed those are issues
that you can see matter in this case. But also
we have to be clear that if there are any
problems with processes that will fixed them for the future too.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
What if I was found that any of these agencies
did not act properly and there's strong reason to suspect that,
what's the consequence.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, in the first instance, the Public Service Commissioner would
be doing fact finding, fund those facts and they make
recommendations for what needs to change, what went wrong and why,
and then those recommendations would come to me as minister.
In the first instance, I would involve other ministers, then
we'd go from there.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, I mean this is a tricky thing to deal with,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, I think we're all really conscious that there is
an an independent process being run by the police and
the Privacy Commissioner and it's not appropriate for there to
be any political influence of those independent processes. At the
same time, as a government, we do have an obligation
here to make sure that government agencies have done the
right thing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah. When you guys were considering what to do with this,
and I know that you guys thought about it a
long time, I mean clearly you did, right, these allegations
came out more than a week ago. Did you think
about the possibility that the Marti party could turn this
into some sort of a Trumpian thing and start claiming
a witch hunt.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, look, we're really conscious that because this involves another
political party, that we have to act really carefully to
make sure that it's not even perceived that we're acting
on this for any political reason. That's not what is
motivating us here. What this is about as New Zealander's data,
their personal information, and we do want NGOs, non government
(03:52):
organizations to be able to access that data sometimes in
order to deliver good public services. But if we're going
to do that, we have to be I'm really sure
it's being used appropriately and they're a good safeguards in place.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Have any offshoal investors indicated an interest in coming back
to do any oil and gas work here.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Look, I haven't got an update on that from Minister Jones,
but I can tell you what he is very keen
in everything he can to make it easier for them
to come back. At the weekend, of course announced the
reverse of the oil and Gas band, but in the
bill that he's putting forward there are other changes to
address concerns that overseas investors have had with investing in
(04:33):
oil and gas exploration here. That's things like the restrictions
that are emplaced on how permits are allocated, things like
the decommissioning requirements and other regulatory matters which he's seeking
to tidy up to make it an attractive place to invest.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
He wants to reprise the nineteen seventy three Mali gas contract.
Would you be up for that?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Well, what I know is that we need gas as
a trend vis fuel if we're going to have reliable
energy supply. I don't want this to be a country
where we literally have to tell our dairy factories to
stop processing milk because there isn't enough gas for our
schools and hospitals. And that is literally something that we
(05:16):
are having to contemplate and the cabinet at the moment
is what happens when the gas runs out? If it
runs out, who are we going to ration? Un Solo's
going to be at the back of the queue. That's
not a way for developed country to run. So we
have to be very open minded about it.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I couldn't agree with you more. It's crazy that we're
in this position. But would you be okay as going?
Would you be up for going as far as the
nineteen seventy three Mali Gas contract.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, I don't know anything about that contract either.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I'll tell you what. No, that's okay. The important thing
in the Mali Gas contract is that it was for
a long time, but it also made the Crown a shareholder,
a stakeholder and a fifty percent owner. Would you be
up for something like that.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, I'd have to be convinced. I'd really have to
be convinced that that's necessary for the taxpayer to make
that in my preference would for the private sector to
be making those investments.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Hey, how's it going with the building the ten thousand
ev charges? How many have you built?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We're still coming up with the perfect model. There is
that and night were no. No, we keep money in
the budget because we do think the government's got a
role to play in building EV charges. The Minister of
Transport is coming up with a model for how we
do that co investment because obviously we want to maximize
private investment. We don't want the government going around building
(06:30):
ev charges that the private sector would have happily built.
So we're coming up with a model there to supercharge
that program. But we also have another role, which is
just reducing the red tape, the regulation, having consistent standards
and working with the electricity authority or the connection costs
for those matters. So Simeon's progressing that work. He'll be
(06:50):
reputting back to Cabinet later this year.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Nicholas, what are we going to do about the Aussie
deportations where these guys are going to start sending people
back here who have in some cases not been in
the country as adults.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, that's right, and I find this one of those
really difficult issues where just on the face of it,
to me seems wrong to be deporting people to New
Zealand who have no connection to New Zealand, whose formative
experiences we're in Australia. At the same time, as I
think it's a disappointing approach from Australia and regressible, I
(07:22):
do recognize that there's a sovereign country, they have the
right to implement it.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
So what are we going to do about it?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Though, Well, we're going to keep reminding the Australians off
the commitments that made to us, which is to apply
a common sense approach to these decisions, and we're just
going to have to keep being the flea in the area,
reminding them of those commitments to us and the context
of our strong and trusting relationship and expecting them to
(07:48):
uphold those com up.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
What about a little bit of social investment, which you're
the minister of at the border right, So, realizing that
a lot of these people will come here and they
will have not enough and not enough kind of I
guess income and whatever to fall back and will therefore
fool themselves into crime, maybe the social investment thing to
do would be to provide them with enough accommodation to
kind of see them through for a few weeks, help
them find a job and stuff so they go on
the straight and arrow.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Look, I think there's something in that, Heather, and it
is something that I think it's worth talking to the
relevant authorities about because, as you say, if you've got
people bouncing into the country with nowhere to live, no
connection in their first port of call as the local gang,
then that's a bad recipe for everyone involved. So it
is something I'll take up with the Minister of Justice
(08:32):
called Goltsmouth and see what the thinking is there, Because
we all know five Oho ones have reached a lot
of havoc in our community too.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Right they have. Hey, Nicholas, thank you very much. We'll
talk to you again in a week. Look after yourself.
That's Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
news Talks.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
With us. Now we have Nikola Willis finance mister, Hey Nikola.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hello, how are you very well?
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Thank you? Now, how much power does the Public Service
Commission have in this investigation?
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Well, it has powers into the Public Service Acts to
conduct independent inquiries. That means it can require information from
government agencies. It can provide oversight of their decision making
and investigate what's going on. In this case, the two
party Mati allegations are the allegations of Mana a Mudrai
(00:33):
all relate to New Zealander's personal information. So the concern
that we have is to ensure that government agencies have
had the proper processes in place to protect information and
ensure that any potential conflicts of interest have been well managed.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Okay, so it can compel evidence from the government agencies,
but can it compel evidence also from other people involved
in these allegations like the White peta to trust, the
Marti Party, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
No, in the first instance, you would expect that to
be the role of the police or the Privacy Commissioner,
who have their own coercive powers in relation to allegations
that are made to them, should they choose to use
those powers. So The reason we've got the Public Service
Commissioner involved is really that we want to make sure
(01:21):
that we've got our own house and order as government,
which is to say, have government agencies acted appropriately? Have
they had the good systems and processes? Is there any
tune up that's required at our end? What are the
facts here about what's actually gone on? Because protecting New
Zealander's data goes to the heart of our democratic process
(01:42):
and we need to make sure that if any mistakes
have been made yet, they are corrected.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Okay, so this is going to look at, for example,
if MESD just naming an agency or statistics. New Zealand
acted quickly when they were first told these allegations.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Exactly, and also in the first place when they set
up these arrangements. Do they have appropriate safeguards in place
for the protection of people's personal information by a third
party providers? Did the safeguards work? Are there good institutional
arrangements for the way personal information is used? Was there
review to check that there were conflict if there were
(02:16):
conflicts of interest where they properly managed those are issues
that you can see matter in this case. But also
we have to be clear that if there are any
problems with processes that will fixed them for the future too.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
What if I was found that any of these agencies
did not act properly and there's strong reason to suspect that,
what's the consequence.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, in the first instance, the Public Service Commissioner would
be doing fact finding, fund those facts and they make
recommendations for what needs to change, what went wrong and why,
and then those recommendations would come to me as minister.
In the first instance, I would involve other ministers, then
we'd go from there.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, I mean this is a tricky thing to deal with,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, I think we're all really conscious that there is
an an independent process being run by the police and
the Privacy Commissioner and it's not appropriate for there to
be any political influence of those independent processes. At the
same time, as a government, we do have an obligation
here to make sure that government agencies have done the
right thing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Yeah. When you guys were considering what to do with this,
and I know that you guys thought about it a
long time, I mean clearly you did, right, these allegations
came out more than a week ago. Did you think
about the possibility that the Marti party could turn this
into some sort of a Trumpian thing and start claiming
a witch hunt.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, look, we're really conscious that because this involves another
political party, that we have to act really carefully to
make sure that it's not even perceived that we're acting
on this for any political reason. That's not what is
motivating us here. What this is about as New Zealander's data,
their personal information, and we do want NGOs, non government
(03:52):
organizations to be able to access that data sometimes in
order to deliver good public services. But if we're going
to do that, we have to be I'm really sure
it's being used appropriately and they're a good safeguards in place.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
Have any offshoal investors indicated an interest in coming back
to do any oil and gas work here.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Look, I haven't got an update on that from Minister Jones,
but I can tell you what he is very keen
in everything he can to make it easier for them
to come back. At the weekend, of course announced the
reverse of the oil and Gas band, but in the
bill that he's putting forward there are other changes to
address concerns that overseas investors have had with investing in
(04:33):
oil and gas exploration here. That's things like the restrictions
that are emplaced on how permits are allocated, things like
the decommissioning requirements and other regulatory matters which he's seeking
to tidy up to make it an attractive place to invest.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
He wants to reprise the nineteen seventy three Mali gas contract.
Would you be up for that?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Well, what I know is that we need gas as
a trend vis fuel if we're going to have reliable
energy supply. I don't want this to be a country
where we literally have to tell our dairy factories to
stop processing milk because there isn't enough gas for our
schools and hospitals. And that is literally something that we
(05:16):
are having to contemplate and the cabinet at the moment
is what happens when the gas runs out? If it
runs out, who are we going to ration? Un Solo's
going to be at the back of the queue. That's
not a way for developed country to run. So we
have to be very open minded about it.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I couldn't agree with you more. It's crazy that we're
in this position. But would you be okay as going?
Would you be up for going as far as the
nineteen seventy three Mali Gas contract.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Well, I don't know anything about that contract either.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
I'll tell you what. No, that's okay. The important thing
in the Mali Gas contract is that it was for
a long time, but it also made the Crown a shareholder,
a stakeholder and a fifty percent owner. Would you be
up for something like that.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Well, I'd have to be convinced. I'd really have to
be convinced that that's necessary for the taxpayer to make
that in my preference would for the private sector to
be making those investments.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Hey, how's it going with the building the ten thousand
ev charges? How many have you built?
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We're still coming up with the perfect model. There is
that and night were no. No, we keep money in
the budget because we do think the government's got a
role to play in building EV charges. The Minister of
Transport is coming up with a model for how we
do that co investment because obviously we want to maximize
private investment. We don't want the government going around building
(06:30):
ev charges that the private sector would have happily built.
So we're coming up with a model there to supercharge
that program. But we also have another role, which is
just reducing the red tape, the regulation, having consistent standards
and working with the electricity authority or the connection costs
for those matters. So Simeon's progressing that work. He'll be
(06:50):
reputting back to Cabinet later this year.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Nicholas, what are we going to do about the Aussie
deportations where these guys are going to start sending people
back here who have in some cases not been in
the country as adults.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Yeah, that's right, and I find this one of those
really difficult issues where just on the face of it,
to me seems wrong to be deporting people to New
Zealand who have no connection to New Zealand, whose formative
experiences we're in Australia. At the same time, as I
think it's a disappointing approach from Australia and regressible, I
(07:22):
do recognize that there's a sovereign country, they have the
right to implement it.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
So what are we going to do about it?
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Though, Well, we're going to keep reminding the Australians off
the commitments that made to us, which is to apply
a common sense approach to these decisions, and we're just
going to have to keep being the flea in the area,
reminding them of those commitments to us and the context
of our strong and trusting relationship and expecting them to
(07:48):
uphold those com up.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
What about a little bit of social investment, which you're
the minister of at the border right, So, realizing that
a lot of these people will come here and they
will have not enough and not enough kind of I
guess income and whatever to fall back and will therefore
fool themselves into crime, maybe the social investment thing to
do would be to provide them with enough accommodation to
kind of see them through for a few weeks, help
them find a job and stuff so they go on
the straight and arrow.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Look, I think there's something in that, Heather, and it
is something that I think it's worth talking to the
relevant authorities about because, as you say, if you've got
people bouncing into the country with nowhere to live, no
connection in their first port of call as the local gang,
then that's a bad recipe for everyone involved. So it
is something I'll take up with the Minister of Justice
(08:32):
called Goltsmouth and see what the thinking is there, Because
we all know five Oho ones have reached a lot
of havoc in our community too.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Right they have. Hey, Nicholas, thank you very much. We'll
talk to you again in a week. Look after yourself.
That's Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to
news Talks.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
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