September 9, 2024 • 10 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Josie Pagani from Child Fund and Brigitte Morten from Franks Ogilvie joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
ACT's David Seymour has outlined some new changes to the Treaty Principles Bill amid growing calls to not let the bill progress to select committee stage. Will this turn public opinion around? Will National change its mind about the bill?
The principal at Porirua College has cancelled upcoming literacy tests that students have to pass to get NCEA, because her students are not prepared. Is this the right call?
New research reveals Kiwis are really boring when it comes to going out for dinner. A new survey found Auckland restaurants closed the earliest in the world. Why do we think this is? Do we need to change our image?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Twenty away from Sex.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, Unparalleled Reach
and Results.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Huddle with Us this evening is Josephagani of Child Fund
and Bridget Morton Ere, lawyer at Frank's Ogilby. Hello you too, Hello,
good evening, Josie. Do you reckon that David Seymore's change
to the Treaty Principal's Bill will be enough to quell
some of the opposition?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
No, I don't, because I think I was looking on
the website today and they've said, you know, acts Treaty
Principal Bill will ensure our nation's founding documents delivers on
its promise of equal rights to all New Zealanders. Now,
the problem, I think Active God, is that the Treaty
is a contract and it doesn't actually promise equal rights
to all New Zealanders. What it promises is to give
(00:42):
Mary their own system of government and their own and
their own for their own people, and a new national
government that will take over the big stuff like trade,
foreign affairs, crime and so on.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I don't believe foreign affairs being in the Treaty no,
but I mean it was stuff into it there.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
It was it was it was a vision of government,
if you like. So it wasn't really promising equal rights
to all people, which is easy to say. And I
think there are a lot more creative ideas, and I
think Act of just you know, they've kind of pulled
themselves into a cul de sac with this stuff. Because
even people like Eric Crampton, right, who works in the
New Zealand Initiative, who is probably quite friendly to ACT
(01:19):
and their views. He just did an amazing piece recently
about Indigenous Indians in Canada, where the Canadian government have said, right,
these are your lands. On your lands, you can set
your own building regulations, you can build homes, you can
build whatever you want, you set the rules and regulations.
You can even tax your own people within your own
(01:40):
area of land. So there's a lot of other creative
ways of honoring the treaty. This he's trying to rewrite
the Treaty as some.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Kind trying to bring it in the twenty first century. Right, Yes,
you've got because because I mean the point that he's
trying to make is that the treaty was written at
a time when New Zealand was basically being settled, and
we have changed from there, and I guess his argument.
Your argument is you can take an eighteen forties way
of doing things and bring it into the twenty first century.
(02:10):
And I guess his argument is things have changed too much,
you've got to change it.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
No.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I just it's not about bringing a nineteen forties, eight
eighteen forties idea into today. But it is about saying,
how do you give I mean, devolution of services is
the way we've been doing it in subsequent government's, National
and Labor have done that very well.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Where you go.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
We just talked, you know, you just talk to Shane
Retti about health. You know where you devolve to Mari
to Mari for Mary to deliver health services because it's
better than central government doing it. So I think ACT
would have been much better. Owning the kind like charter
schools is a kind of devolution. Right, Mary can run
their own school.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
But as can everybody else. And that's the point is
it's not just for Mari, it's for everybody being But
it is.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
A contract, Heather, That's the thing I think that they're
not and you know, they believe in property rights, a
contract like we have trade deals, we have, we have
treaties on visa rights, and it is a treaty with
certain obligations and certain responsibilities. You can't look away from that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, what do you reckon, Bridget?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, I think the problem with the treaty Principal's bill
is it is too much of a blunt instrument. And
I think that's what Josie's really saying is the fact
is that to try and sort of take all of
this nuance and different policy outcomes and bring it into
modern time with one bill, it's almost impossible to ask.
And it was essentially you know, you can put it
up as a political statement, but the courts are almost
(03:31):
definitely going to knock it around. We're not going to
have the outcomes that Act as seeking from this particular bill.
And I think that's the problem that Acts got and
possibly why you know, we saw at Postcab that the
bill maybe is not even yet ready to be introduced
is because the drafting is so tricky to actually achieve
all of the things that Act promised it could pre election.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and lux and Bridget is obviously not going to
move on today.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, absolutely, And I think that's really clear, and it's
been clear for what ten months now that they're not
going to move on it, and it's just forcing that
issue further and further.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think that if they could be honest about what
they're really trying to push back against, they're trying to
push back against what they see as a sort of
treaty industry, you know, government departments changing situation with the GPS,
right exactly, So why not have that debate rather than
trying to do this thing. You're right, bridget I mean this,
(04:25):
this this bill is never going to see the light
of day. All it's doing is people have got an
idea that it's somehow, you know, negating the whole treaty
history that we've got. So all that all that it's
done is cause more problems and divide people even further.
Whereas if they wanted to push back on things like,
you know, the GPS only seeing Marty kids rather than
(04:47):
working class parking are kids who have no money, I
los poor, then then then let's have that debate and
and let's have a debate about what you do about
the fact that Marty have terrible health statistics. But this
is just it's just a canner, you know, it's just
a distraction.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
The huddle with new Zealand Southeby's International Realty exceptional marketing
for every property.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Right back with the huddle Bridget Morton and Joseph Ganni Bridget,
what do you make of put it to a college
canceling the literacy exams?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Ah, I'm completely frustrated by it. I think that it's
meant to whole bunch of students will not get the
opportunity to get that qualification. Last year we had the
highest proportion of students leaving school before they were seventeen
in the last decade, thirty six percent of Maori students
left before they were seventeen. So if they don't get
the opportunity to set that test this year, and we
(05:35):
know on current statistics about fifty percent of the mayor
passed it, they will not get that qualification. And I
think that's what's missing in this debates, like we want
more time, it's too stressful, there's too much work, But ultimately,
for many of the students, there's one chance for them
to get their schooling and putting out these deadlines actually
harms them more than worrying about principal workloades.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I worry.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I worry here Josie that what the fundamentally is an
admission of is that at put it to a college,
like at many other places around the country, there is
a huge group of kids who do not know how
to read and write at the level that they are
expected to for their age. And so we're just not
going to have an exam. That's the problem.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, And actually this would be a really good issue
for acts to own. That's what I mean about charter schools.
If these kids are failing, I think they can do
a better job than that principle who you interviewed a lot.
And I think what this what's behind this is that
there's a thing in teaching today where they don't like tests,
and the teachers keep pushing back on the.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Teescht because it reflects badly on them.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And also I think that it's a kind of belief
that you shouldn't train kids to be these economic little
units that you know, past tests or fail tests and
so on. Let them paint and make compost, you know.
And I think that's the problem is that we've done
this kind of child centered learning, is what it's called.
And actually the evidence shows that when you teach kids stuff,
when you when you fill their brains with facts and
(06:57):
figures and whatever they learn more drivestful, yes, right, when poor.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Kids suffer the most from the because the poor kids
suffer the most bridgid because they're not getting it at
home at least in wealthy homes that the parents will like,
you know, and there's a massive generalization we're making here.
But we'll have the time to be able to go
and fill in the gaps for them, so we make composts. Yeah,
and make the composts. We're actually failing the poorer kids,
aren't we.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, absolute we are. And I mean that's and that's
also proven statistic is that gap is getting wider and
wider in terms of the kids achieving the literacy and
numerously statistics and I yeah, this whole set of adversion
to testing also frustrates me. I'm tested on a daily basis,
you know, and my role as a lawyer, a client
problem comes to me, I need to turn it around,
get them back advice. Make sure that you know it's
(07:41):
high cool advice. That is what how most people have
to operate, is that they are tested every day on
their skills. I don't think we should be shying around
away from that, just you know, make sure that.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Hate exams and I failed exams and I failed tests
all through my schooling. I mean, I managed to get
to university, but only because I had massive intervention and
so I understand this. But if I don't even know
my time's table, Heather, We've had this conversation before.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Scross, I know, and no one taught me.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And so I look at this stuff and go, do
you not realize that the more kids know, the more
that the more they can learn? And that's just proven
fact that our brains aren't like hard drives. Kids' brains
can just absorb so much stuff and we're letting down
the poorest kids.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Really attitude, Bridget, Can you explain to me why it
is that we have to eat at nursery hours in
this country.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I totally agree with this, and I think the number
one frustration I have, particularly in Wellington, is you go
to something after work, so you know, a drinks function
something like that, and then you go to leave that
function you want some dinner and they're closing the kitchen
at eight pm, or you know, you sit down at
seven thirty and they're like, oh, you need to order
in the next ten minutes. That is the most frustrating thing.
And I do not understand why we have not developed
(08:55):
a culture here we're successful to eat beyond six pm
at night.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah, it's like we've got this culture where, you know,
we go home and we're good during the week and
we watch the Telly or Netflix or whatever, and we
do nothing. And then it gets to Friday night and
we make ourselves blotto and end up in a and e,
you know, and it's like we can't. We can't just
sort of be bit of a frend and go out
and have nice meals with you know, one glass of wine.
It's like we're either you know.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
What time do you eat your dinner? Josie?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Well, I see, when you've got kids, you get used
to eating it early.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Now I eat it later.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And then I did live in France, actually, and you
no one ate dinner before seven thirty eight?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And so what time do you eat it now?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Now?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
I'd eat about six thirty late at home, at home late.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
What that's like halfway through the news. Oh my gosh,
Bridget what you still watch the news? Heather? Of course
you do, yes, of course I do. Bridget. What time
do you eat your dinner? I think that's.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Seven thirty by the time we get home from work,
you know, fluff around it, but make the dinner.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But we do have this nitude like if you go,
I'm staying in a motel on the East Coast the
other day and it had a sign saying we do
like guests to cooperate, and you think, what in the
kitchen closed at six point thirty or something like that. Look,
we're so grow up New zeal Act.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I've got a yarn about Parmeston North. I have to
tell next because jeez, Palmerston North that Parmestan needs to
sort it out. Guys, thank you so much, appreciate it.
That's Josephagani of Child Fund and Bridget Morton, who's a
lawyer at Ogilvy Frank.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Twenty away from Sex.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
The Huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty, Unparalleled Reach
and Results.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Huddle with Us this evening is Josephagani of Child Fund
and Bridget Morton Ere, lawyer at Frank's Ogilby. Hello you too, Hello,
good evening, Josie. Do you reckon that David Seymore's change
to the Treaty Principal's Bill will be enough to quell
some of the opposition?
Speaker 3 (00:20):
No, I don't, because I think I was looking on
the website today and they've said, you know, acts Treaty
Principal Bill will ensure our nation's founding documents delivers on
its promise of equal rights to all New Zealanders. Now,
the problem, I think Active God, is that the Treaty
is a contract and it doesn't actually promise equal rights
to all New Zealanders. What it promises is to give
(00:42):
Mary their own system of government and their own and
their own for their own people, and a new national
government that will take over the big stuff like trade,
foreign affairs, crime and so on.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I don't believe foreign affairs being in the Treaty no,
but I mean it was stuff into it there.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
It was it was it was a vision of government,
if you like. So it wasn't really promising equal rights
to all people, which is easy to say. And I
think there are a lot more creative ideas, and I
think Act of just you know, they've kind of pulled
themselves into a cul de sac with this stuff. Because
even people like Eric Crampton, right, who works in the
New Zealand Initiative, who is probably quite friendly to ACT
(01:19):
and their views. He just did an amazing piece recently
about Indigenous Indians in Canada, where the Canadian government have said, right,
these are your lands. On your lands, you can set
your own building regulations, you can build homes, you can
build whatever you want, you set the rules and regulations.
You can even tax your own people within your own
(01:40):
area of land. So there's a lot of other creative
ways of honoring the treaty. This he's trying to rewrite
the Treaty as some.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
Kind trying to bring it in the twenty first century. Right, Yes,
you've got because because I mean the point that he's
trying to make is that the treaty was written at
a time when New Zealand was basically being settled, and
we have changed from there, and I guess his argument.
Your argument is you can take an eighteen forties way
of doing things and bring it into the twenty first century.
(02:10):
And I guess his argument is things have changed too much,
you've got to change it.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
No.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
I just it's not about bringing a nineteen forties, eight
eighteen forties idea into today. But it is about saying,
how do you give I mean, devolution of services is
the way we've been doing it in subsequent government's, National
and Labor have done that very well.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Where you go.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
We just talked, you know, you just talk to Shane
Retti about health. You know where you devolve to Mari
to Mari for Mary to deliver health services because it's
better than central government doing it. So I think ACT
would have been much better. Owning the kind like charter
schools is a kind of devolution. Right, Mary can run
their own school.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
But as can everybody else. And that's the point is
it's not just for Mari, it's for everybody being But
it is.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
A contract, Heather, That's the thing I think that they're
not and you know, they believe in property rights, a
contract like we have trade deals, we have, we have
treaties on visa rights, and it is a treaty with
certain obligations and certain responsibilities. You can't look away from that.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, what do you reckon, Bridget?
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Well, I think the problem with the treaty Principal's bill
is it is too much of a blunt instrument. And
I think that's what Josie's really saying is the fact
is that to try and sort of take all of
this nuance and different policy outcomes and bring it into
modern time with one bill, it's almost impossible to ask.
And it was essentially you know, you can put it
up as a political statement, but the courts are almost
(03:31):
definitely going to knock it around. We're not going to
have the outcomes that Act as seeking from this particular bill.
And I think that's the problem that Acts got and
possibly why you know, we saw at Postcab that the
bill maybe is not even yet ready to be introduced
is because the drafting is so tricky to actually achieve
all of the things that Act promised it could pre election.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, and lux and Bridget is obviously not going to
move on today.
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, absolutely, And I think that's really clear, and it's
been clear for what ten months now that they're not
going to move on it, and it's just forcing that
issue further and further.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
I think that if they could be honest about what
they're really trying to push back against, they're trying to
push back against what they see as a sort of
treaty industry, you know, government departments changing situation with the GPS,
right exactly, So why not have that debate rather than
trying to do this thing. You're right, bridget I mean this,
(04:25):
this this bill is never going to see the light
of day. All it's doing is people have got an
idea that it's somehow, you know, negating the whole treaty
history that we've got. So all that all that it's
done is cause more problems and divide people even further.
Whereas if they wanted to push back on things like,
you know, the GPS only seeing Marty kids rather than
(04:47):
working class parking are kids who have no money, I
los poor, then then then let's have that debate and
and let's have a debate about what you do about
the fact that Marty have terrible health statistics. But this
is just it's just a canner, you know, it's just
a distraction.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
The huddle with new Zealand Southeby's International Realty exceptional marketing
for every property.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Right back with the huddle Bridget Morton and Joseph Ganni Bridget,
what do you make of put it to a college
canceling the literacy exams?
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Ah, I'm completely frustrated by it. I think that it's
meant to whole bunch of students will not get the
opportunity to get that qualification. Last year we had the
highest proportion of students leaving school before they were seventeen
in the last decade, thirty six percent of Maori students
left before they were seventeen. So if they don't get
the opportunity to set that test this year, and we
(05:35):
know on current statistics about fifty percent of the mayor
passed it, they will not get that qualification. And I
think that's what's missing in this debates, like we want
more time, it's too stressful, there's too much work, But ultimately,
for many of the students, there's one chance for them
to get their schooling and putting out these deadlines actually
harms them more than worrying about principal workloades.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I worry.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I worry here Josie that what the fundamentally is an
admission of is that at put it to a college,
like at many other places around the country, there is
a huge group of kids who do not know how
to read and write at the level that they are
expected to for their age. And so we're just not
going to have an exam. That's the problem.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
Yeah, And actually this would be a really good issue
for acts to own. That's what I mean about charter schools.
If these kids are failing, I think they can do
a better job than that principle who you interviewed a lot.
And I think what this what's behind this is that
there's a thing in teaching today where they don't like tests,
and the teachers keep pushing back on the.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Teescht because it reflects badly on them.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And also I think that it's a kind of belief
that you shouldn't train kids to be these economic little
units that you know, past tests or fail tests and
so on. Let them paint and make compost, you know.
And I think that's the problem is that we've done
this kind of child centered learning, is what it's called.
And actually the evidence shows that when you teach kids stuff,
when you when you fill their brains with facts and
(06:57):
figures and whatever they learn more drivestful, yes, right, when poor.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Kids suffer the most from the because the poor kids
suffer the most bridgid because they're not getting it at
home at least in wealthy homes that the parents will like,
you know, and there's a massive generalization we're making here.
But we'll have the time to be able to go
and fill in the gaps for them, so we make composts. Yeah,
and make the composts. We're actually failing the poorer kids,
aren't we.
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Yeah, absolute we are. And I mean that's and that's
also proven statistic is that gap is getting wider and
wider in terms of the kids achieving the literacy and
numerously statistics and I yeah, this whole set of adversion
to testing also frustrates me. I'm tested on a daily basis,
you know, and my role as a lawyer, a client
problem comes to me, I need to turn it around,
get them back advice. Make sure that you know it's
(07:41):
high cool advice. That is what how most people have
to operate, is that they are tested every day on
their skills. I don't think we should be shying around
away from that, just you know, make sure that.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Hate exams and I failed exams and I failed tests
all through my schooling. I mean, I managed to get
to university, but only because I had massive intervention and
so I understand this. But if I don't even know
my time's table, Heather, We've had this conversation before.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Scross, I know, and no one taught me.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And so I look at this stuff and go, do
you not realize that the more kids know, the more
that the more they can learn? And that's just proven
fact that our brains aren't like hard drives. Kids' brains
can just absorb so much stuff and we're letting down
the poorest kids.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Really attitude, Bridget, Can you explain to me why it
is that we have to eat at nursery hours in
this country.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I totally agree with this, and I think the number
one frustration I have, particularly in Wellington, is you go
to something after work, so you know, a drinks function
something like that, and then you go to leave that
function you want some dinner and they're closing the kitchen
at eight pm, or you know, you sit down at
seven thirty and they're like, oh, you need to order
in the next ten minutes. That is the most frustrating thing.
And I do not understand why we have not developed
(08:55):
a culture here we're successful to eat beyond six pm
at night.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Yeah, it's like we've got this culture where, you know,
we go home and we're good during the week and
we watch the Telly or Netflix or whatever, and we
do nothing. And then it gets to Friday night and
we make ourselves blotto and end up in a and e,
you know, and it's like we can't. We can't just
sort of be bit of a frend and go out
and have nice meals with you know, one glass of wine.
It's like we're either you know.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
What time do you eat your dinner? Josie?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Well, I see, when you've got kids, you get used
to eating it early.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
Now I eat it later.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
And then I did live in France, actually, and you
no one ate dinner before seven thirty eight?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And so what time do you eat it now?
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Now?
Speaker 3 (09:33):
I'd eat about six thirty late at home, at home late.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
What that's like halfway through the news. Oh my gosh,
Bridget what you still watch the news? Heather? Of course
you do, yes, of course I do. Bridget. What time
do you eat your dinner? I think that's.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Seven thirty by the time we get home from work,
you know, fluff around it, but make the dinner.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
But we do have this nitude like if you go,
I'm staying in a motel on the East Coast the
other day and it had a sign saying we do
like guests to cooperate, and you think, what in the
kitchen closed at six point thirty or something like that. Look,
we're so grow up New zeal Act.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
I've got a yarn about Parmeston North. I have to
tell next because jeez, Palmerston North that Parmestan needs to
sort it out. Guys, thank you so much, appreciate it.
That's Josephagani of Child Fund and Bridget Morton, who's a
lawyer at Ogilvy Frank.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
news Talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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