Dave Gerrard: former Olympian and Otago University Emeritus Professor on the open letter urging the Government to rethink letting trans athletes take part in sports

Over 50 high-profile sporting identities and former Olympians have signed an open letter urging the Government to rethink the guiding principles for transgender athletes participating in sports.

The letter claims Sport New Zealand’s guidelines disregard the rights of female athletes and go against scientific evidence.

Former Olympian Dave Gerrard says allowing athletes to compete under self-identification ignores the science - and dismisses female athletes.

"I'm not, for one moment, trying to exclude transgender individuals from participating - I'm just trying to get some logic to this. How far do you allow somebody to go?"

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
God, Heather, do to see Allen.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
But anyway, Alan Lickman, who you know, is much more
experienced than I am and much more credible on this.
He'll be with us after five o'clock. Now, more than
fifty former Olympians have signed an open letter calling on
the government to rethink letting transgender athletes participate in women's
sports at the community level. The athletes, which include former
Olympians Barbara Kendall and also David Girard, said Sports New

(00:24):
Zealand's guidelines disregard the rights of female athletes and go
against scientific eveness.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
David Gerard is also an emeritus professor in sports medicine
at Otago University. Hey, Dave, Hello, how are you?

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Heather?

Speaker 2 (00:37):
Very well, and it's very nice to talk to you again. Now,
what is your concern about the participation of transgender women
at the community level?

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Well, my concern hasn't changed over the years. But I
think what has changed, Heather is the discussion we're having
now is a little bit different to the one we
would have had five years ago. And that's because there's
a lot more very convincing evidence and research out there
to show unequivocally that male bodied athletes. In other words,

(01:07):
athletes who have transitioned, having had the benefit of male
puberty will retain most of those benefits, irrespective of whether
they take and gen suppressing drugs and reidentify as a woman.
In other words, if we logically depending upon somebody's self

(01:31):
identification as the criterion for competition against females, then we're
ignoring the science, and I think we're being dismissive of
female athletes.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yes, okay, now you're not going to get an argument
out of me on that one. But I'd made a
distinction personally between what's going on at the professional or
elite level, where I think transgender women cannot compete against
against this gender women, but at the community level I
was more relaxed about it. Am I wrong?

Speaker 1 (02:00):
No? I don't necessarily think you're wrong, and I think
the jury is still out on that. I guess the
question that's raised and we need some more clarity from
Sport New Zealand on this is where we draw the line.
If somebody meets the criteria and participates in community sport,

(02:21):
and it's everyone's prerogative, isn't it The physical and psychological
benefits of exercise everyone's right, But where do we how
far do we allow a trans athlete to progress if
they want to participate in a team sport where there
may be contact, physical contact and issues relating to danger

(02:43):
or safety, And then there's the fairness. I think these
criterias still apply even in a community sport level, and
I think that's the clarity that's needed by the swimming
clubs and the athletic clubs and the social clubs, irrespective
of the sport and the national sporting association we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Okay, so do you think all of the things that
apply all of my objections at the elite level, which
is that you know, people body, people born into a
male body are better at competing, that they can throw further,
they can run faster, they can jump hi, they've got
all of that advantage, but also the damage that can
be done to the female body. All of those things
that I see as problems at the elite level, you
see at community level as well.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
Well. I think it's it begins somewhere. I'm not, for
one moment trying to exclude trans athletes or transgender individuals
from participating, but I'm just trying to get some logic
to this you know, how how far do you allow
somebody to go? And do you allow you know, male

(03:49):
bodied athletes to compete in collision sports or you know.
I mean, I just think there's a there's an issue
there that's still got to be addressed.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Look, I think fair for you to raise it, Dave.
What do we do though? I mean, if you've got
there will be a number of trans women in the
community who will want to be able to do things
like play netball or rugby or box or whatever. So
if they can't do it with women who they identify with,
where do they do it.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
Well, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't participate, but I'm
just asking that we add some clarity to this and
people are open and honest about it. And if a
bunch of netballers or a women's rugby team says, yes,
we're quite happy to have athlete X play with us

(04:40):
or against us, then that's fine. I just think there
needs to be some common sense applied to something which
was ideological.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
And give me your common sense, though, don't pussy foot
around on the stave, because you don't have to pussy
foot around on this particular program. We take everybody's opinions
as full noise as they come. So tell me what
you think, because you're the expert. Should trans women be
competing against naturally born women at the community sport level?

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well, again, it depends on the sport we're talking about, yep.
And if they want to join the swimming club or
run athletically, or throw the discuss or put the shot. Yeah,
you know. But what I'm more concerned about the issues
relating to physical contact in the same way you wouldn't

(05:30):
get a flyway or abandoned way, box are expected.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
To So you're talking about rugby, rugby league, boxing, those
kinds of things.

Speaker 1 (05:38):
Collision, collision and contact sports. That's you know, I mean,
as a physician, that's where my consume would be.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
David's always good to talk to you. I really appreciate it.
Dave Gerard, former Olympian and emeritus professor in Sports Medicine
at Otago University. For more from Hither duplessy Allen Drive,
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