Duane Leo: Public Service Association national secretary on the Government wanting public servants to work from offices again

The Government's ordering public servants back to the office, with a crackdown on working from home.

Public Service Minister Nicola Willis has outlined new expectations for agency bosses to make flexible working an agreement, not an entitlement.

She says there are performance downsides to such arrangements - and impacts on local businesses.

Public Service Association national secretary Duane Leo says the Government's blaming public servants for a problem of its own making.

"If the Government really cared about the Wellington economy, why did they sack thousands of public servants this year? That's one of the issues that the Wellington economy is struggling with at the moment."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Public servants have been given the hard word from the
government to stop working from home. Cabinets told them that
working from home is not an entitlement and must be
agreed to if it doesn't compromise and only if it
doesn't compromise work output. Public Service Association National secretary Dwayne
Leo is with me.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Now, Hey, Dwayne, Ah, good afternoon, Heather.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm going to forgive you that one day. Why are
you guys opposed to this?

Speaker 2 (00:25):
Well, I think what we've got here is a massive distraction.
I mean, this is a desperate reaction blaming public servants
for a problem that the government's created. I mean, if
the government really cared about the Wellington economy, then why
do they sex five thousand public servants this year. That's
the effect, that's the reason why one of the issues
that the Wellington economy is struggling at the moment.

Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, but what's wrong with public servants getting back into
the office.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
Well, I mean what we've got is we've got public
servants and I just want to predate here that public
servants have been have flexible working for a number of
years now. It predates COVID, and that's something that really
came about terms of modern workplaces that private and public
sector companies around the world have embraced in terms of
flexible working. So it's not a matter of simply saying

(01:08):
you've all got to go back into the office. A
lot of members would have employment agreements and arrangements whereby
that's part of their contract as such, to work from
time to time from home.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
How would it be in the like would it be
prescriptive in the contract it would say you get to
work from home one day a week or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, you would have to have some kind of understanding.
It's not just a blanket you can work whenever you
want from home. There would be either through an employment agreement,
a collective agreement, or possibly workplaces also have policies that
run around these things, so there are structures in place
for this to occur.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
And from our duane, what proportion of workers in the
public sector would have that in their contract?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Oh, well, that's something we wouldn't miss because it might
not necessarily just be a contract either, it could be
a policy, so it could be a policy wide arrangement
that the policies, cogency, policy conchange is for the ones
who have.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
It in their contract fair game. It's in their contracts.
But for the rest of them, what's wrong with them
going into the office.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, we're not saying necessarily that they don't go into
the office, but what we're saying is where there are
arrangements that are working, Where there are arrangements that they
are actually getting more efficient work done. Where there are arrangements,
that's because of those situations that helps them to retain
experienced staff with institutional knowledge. Those things need to be
taken into account. Simply saying that the Wellington economy has

(02:26):
been hammered by working from home is just not factual.
The fact is, as I said before, we've had thousands
of public service workers made redundant. And when I say
that that's not the end of it, we understand we've
got another two budget rounds that could potentially impact on this.
That's where the issue is. It's not simply a public
service worker coming in and buying a cup of coffee.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Can I give you an insight into something outside of Wellington.
If they don't go into the office, you're going to
find very little sympathy outside of Wellington for the public
service cuts.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Well in terms of that, hither saying necessarily that they
don't go into the office because these arrangements very dramatically.
You can have someone that works from home one day
a week, you can have someone that has flexible time.
These arrangements, there's a broad spectrum.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
And just what I'm saying is they might want to
haul button to the office that I want to get fired.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Well, you know, you know, I don't think that's fair,
and I actually think that's disrespectful for public service workers
who do a hard job, and a lot of them.
We're not talking about workers that actually get paid large
amounts on your program. I think last week we had
feedback in relation to our civilian workers in the Ministry
of Defense. They have been offered a zero percent pay
rise this year. So there's no money at all for

(03:37):
anyone on any form. And you say you've got them
bringing them back in.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
From home made are they sorry? I'm bestiding I don't
think people in uniform are w s H working from home.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
No, I'm talking about civilian staff, Heather. So we've got
civilian side varies. You can have administration workers, you can
have logistics support, payroll it varies. No, there is yeah
distinct difference between Civilion which are all members and uniformed.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
All right, Duane, listen, thank you. We'll leave it there,
but I'm sure we'll talk about it again at some stage.
Duane Leo, National Secretary of the Public Service Association Success.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
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