Nicola Willis: Public Service Minister defends ordering public servants to go back to the office

The Public Service Minister has put the hard word on Government departments and urged them to call their staff back to the office.

She says there are performance downsides to working-from-home arrangements - and harmful impacts on local businesses.

Willis says these changes will begin with public service departments updating their remote working rules.

"Then we can compare one agency with another - that's when we can really take a close look at whether this is working the way people would expect. Because if everyone's taking Fridays off, we're going to have some questions."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister and also the Public Sector
Minister is with us right now. Hey Nicola, Hi Heather,
I'm very excited about you sending these guys back to work.
Are they crying?

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Well, look, there are many public servants who come into
work every day already. Are others. I think we'll be
having another look at their arrangements. We want to see
more public servants coming in to the office each day,
and our message to all of them is pretty clear.
If it's possible for you to work in the office,
you should. So we've tuned up the expectations.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
Right And how many days would you like them in
the office?

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Well, that is going to vary considerably from person to person.
The number one test for us is can it be
demonstrated that you will be performing one hundred percent? And
you have to think about performance in the broader sense,
because it's not just about what how many emails you're
sending or whether you've written a report. It's are you
available to your colleagues to answer their questions? Are you

(00:57):
collaborating with your team, are you helping support other workers,
are you engaging with people in other parts of the agency.
All of those things are more likely to happen if
you're physically present.

Speaker 1 (01:10):
But if you haven't actually set them any directives like
this is how many days you've got to be in
the office, this is how many of your staff we
expect in the office five days a week. What's to
stop them just carrying on the way they are and
saying we are working at one hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, we've set three very clear expectations. The first expectation
is that these arrangements are no longer and to be
seen as an entitlement. They are by agreement only, explicit
agreement that is explicitly monitored and overseen by your manager
and chief executive. Second, where those agreements exist, they should

(01:44):
it can be demonstrated. The performance isn't going to be
effected in any way, and that's performance in the broader
sense of the term. And third, here's the thing I
think is going to have a big impact. We are
going to require public sector agencies to report how many
people have these arrangements for how many days, and how
many people are working from home on any given day

(02:07):
of the week. And once we ask chief executives to
report that, and then we can compare one agency with
another that's when we can really take a close look
at whether this is working the way people would expect, because, Heather,
if everyone's taking Fridays off, we're going to have some questions.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
That way, isn't it? Oh my goodness. How long is
it going to take for them to actually get the
starter to you?

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Well, I want it in place early next year. I've
said to the Public Service Commission that they need to
make these expectations clear to chief executives, that in fact
written to chief executives today, and that I expect them
to refresh the guidelines and to start collecting the start
as soon as possible in a way that means we
can compare it. I think chief executives should know how

(02:51):
many workers they have in the office on a given day.
But the truth is right now, in the public sector
they can't tell us, and we've got to tune that up.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
Okay, Now, what proportion of the public sector have this
in their contracts?

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Well, that's a good question. I've made clear that all
contractual arrangements, of course, need to be upheld. New Zealand
employment law actually allows employees to ask for flexible arrangements
and people can expect those to be accommodated unless their
employer and employer can give a good reason, and the
reasons are stated in law, and they do relate to
performance and quality, so that legal expectation remains. But the

(03:31):
key thing here is some jobs just completely aren't suited,
of course, to working in the office. In fact, most
New Zealand workers don't have that option, because if you're
working in a supermarket, if you're a nurse, if you're
working on the roads, you don't have this option. And
many many jobs in the public service are the same.
And our view is that actually, if you're an office worker,

(03:51):
you shouldn't have this view that you have a special entitlement.
Actually you've got just as much of a need to
be physically present for work in many cases as any
other work.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
What are you going to do though, because there are
some agencies that have already started to downsize and either
move into new buildings that are smaller because they don't
have everybody there all the time, or they're giving up floors.
What happens then, well.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
This is one of the reasons I want the data,
because I'll tell you what. I've had more than one
minister say to me, Nikola, I went and did a
floor walk of my agency and I can't believe how
many empty desks there were. And so what we had
observe across the public service is that there does appear
to be spare capacity in offices. I know for a
fact that the Government Property Group has excess capacity across

(04:36):
its leases. So I don't think that that's going to
be a problem. Of course, all government departments are asked
to ensure that their leases are appropriate, and they'll continue
to do that, But I don't think we've got a
problem with a lack of space.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah. Now you obviously did this today because I wrote
a column about it yesterday and you read it.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
No, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is something
we have been working on for sometime. It's very good
timing by you.

Speaker 1 (05:03):
Very Look, if anybody asks you, just say, it's that
just I just need but I need to bump up
my street cred just a little bit. And it turns
out a fib here and there in Wellington's not a problem.
Do you think it's time?

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Not?

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Actually no, No, before we get to that, did you
see the Q and A interview?

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I did, and thoughts it was quite painful to watch Heather.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
It was which bit was more painful? Do you think
the bit about not having sold the car or the
bit about being confused about what's actually gonna happen with
the airport shares and the long term plan.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
I found the airport one particularly troubling because I thought
there had been many attempts by the interviewer to get
a clear answer, and the answer did seem to move
around the full three hundred and sixty degrees, So it
was not particularly excellent. But look, Heather, I'm hesitating here
because you know, I'm sure, sure as the eggs I'm

(05:59):
going to have a crash of an interview one day.
That will be the case. It happens to all politicians,
and so I hesitate to be the first phone.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
Nicola. I feel like this is a special case.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
I think I'll be having a bit of a chat
with the PM if that happened to me.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
I think we all be having a chat with a
PM at that stage. What's going on? Though? Do you
think that there needs to be a Crown observer? Have
we got to that stage?

Speaker 2 (06:20):
I am really worried about our council. The city just
clearly has major issues right now. We need a council
focused on doing the basics properly. Instead, it seems to
be quite focused on infighting on cycle ways, on speed bumps,
on road cones. And I also see the dysfunction over

(06:41):
the long term plan and votes around the table and relationships.
Even just the way the Mayor spoke about our fellow
counselors in that interview was quite concerning, So I am
concerned about it. Ultimately, the Minister for Local Government has
a range of statutory powers available to him should those
con turns reached quite a high bar, and I know

(07:02):
that Minister Simeon Brown is watching Wellington City Council very closely.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
I'm pleased to hear that. Now, look on the GDP, right,
we are in a bit of trouble here. We've obviously
had a recession for two years. If you look at
GDP per capita, do you see this turning around anytime soon?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yes, I do, But I acknowledge how tough the situation
has been, which is that we had a significant spike
in inflation, a big cost of living crisis, interest rates
jumped up and had got to very high levels, and
of course we didn't actually see any cut in interest
rates until August, and so the data for the GDP

(07:42):
last week was the period before that happened. What I'm
pleased to see is that we've now got forecasts for
interest rates coming down, inflation being back and banded, and
that's what you want to see, to see businesses feeling
confident again. And some surveys, the A and Z survey,
for example, show that many businesses are feeling more confident
about the future now, which is good to see. It's

(08:02):
not to say it's all roses for everyone, but I
think we're turning a corner.

Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, But now the trouble we've got coming at us
is that migration's about to fall off a cliff and
that's going to cause all kinds of troubles as well,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Well. I think New Zealanders want to see growth happening
in a real way. So we talk about per capita GDP,
which is per person GDP, and that is the number
that I think is ultimately really important. So even if
you don't have really high numbers of people coming into
the country, you can still get productive growth, and that's

(08:34):
what we want to see. We want to see businesses investing,
we want to see them confident about hiring more people,
exporting to new markets, trialing new products, buying new manufacturing
kit and all of those things can happen without high immigration.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah too, right, Nichola listen, Thank you, always appreciate your time.
That's Nichola Willis, the Finance Minister and the Public Sector Minister.
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