Paul Spoonley: Massey University Sociologist on the Government potentially banning Nazi salutes and symbols

Prime Minister Chris Luxon says the Government is open to discussing whether to ban language and symbols related to the Nazis.

It comes after individuals involved in a Mongrel Mob tangi procession in Lower Hutt on Tuesday openly used the term ‘sieg heil’, commonly known as a Nazi chant meaning ‘hail victory’.

Sociologist Paul Spoonley isn't sure a full ban would be enforceable. 

"I think banning doesn't address underlying problems - and I would say the same about swastikas and Nazi salutes as I would about the gang patches."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now the Prime Minister says that he's open to having
a discussion about banning Nazi salutes and symbols. And this
is because Mongrel Mob members obviously use the hands signal
your Nazi signal, along with the expression sighil and they
were pulling that out yesterday at the Tonguey in Wellington.
Sociologist Professor Paul Spoonley is an expert in far right
extremism and with us.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
Now, hey, Paul, did a Heather?

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Do you support a ban?

Speaker 2 (00:26):
No? I don't and I don't and I don't for
a couple of reasons. One is is it enforceable and
it's going to be very interesting to see whether that
is the case with the gang patch ban. And the
second is doesn't have any effect because I think banning
doesn't address underlying problems. And I would say the same
about swastik as the Nazi salutes as I would about

(00:47):
the gang patch.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
What is the underlying problem with the Mongrel Mob that
causes them to pull out this kind of a sign.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, they when they were being established in the late
nineteen sixties nineteen seventies. One of the signia and signs
and symbolism that they called upon was something that was
deeply offensive to a lot of people, and so they
used those Nazi symbols and signs so and of course
continue to do so. So it's what's called racially aggravated harassment.

(01:18):
And around the world, around the in Europe and other
parts of the world, those sort of signs have been
banned places like Switzerland, the UK, Poland and so on.
We've never gone down that route, and so the banning
of the gang patch is quite an interesting departure, and

(01:39):
I think I think if the government's going to be consistent,
it's going to have to say what else are we
going to ban? Because you know you can't. I've always
had a problem, Heather, with the way in which the
police and corrections identify people. So when they talk about gangs,
they tend to talk about black power and mangral moob

(02:00):
whereas I've been researching the Fourth Rank, which is a
white supremacist gang in South Island prisons. Now, why don't
you treat them in the same way and look at
what they do and what sort of signs they use.
But to go back to your first question, I think
banning doesn't address the underlying issues.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yeah, it's kind of weird that we're looking at banning
it now, isn't it? Like it's a real indication of
where we are at as a world, because in the
sixties and seventies, I would have imagined that them doing
it back then would be far more offensive than it
is now. Like as time has gone on, it just
looks increasingly ridiculous, doesn't it. So if we didn't ban
it back in the sixties and seventies, why in God's
name sixty years later are we suddenly so offended by it?

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah? I think some people are offended, and for some
people it has caused distress. So if you look at
the Australian example, where they've banned Nazi sallets and symbols
in New South Wales and Victoria, they've recognized that it
is really distressing and very offensive to certain communities, obviously
the Jewish community, so they've used that as a justification.

(03:00):
But we've we've never been very enthusiastic about that. So
you go back to Jeffrey Palmer and some of the
things that he was asked to do and didn't do,
And then you look again at Paul East. I don't
know whether you remember, but there was evidence that we
had war criminals come to New Zealand, and so the
government set up a particular group to investigate that did

(03:23):
discover that there were war criminals here, but then chose
not to do anything about it. And that was both
labor and national So we've never been enthusiastic PUD.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Why did we not do anything about it?

Speaker 2 (03:36):
It was all a bit too hard. You'd have to
take them to court, You'd have to find people who
could give evidence. Now, in fact, there was evidence, and
the commission that was set up did discover that evidence.
And in fact, Heather, I fucking just dislow something on
your radio station. In the nineteen eighties, I knew that

(03:56):
one of them was living in Palmerston North, and I
actually went and visited. So many people knew who they
were and where they were, but at a government level,
we just didn't. We weren't enthusiastic about prosecuting them as
war criminals.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
This war criminal that you visit in Pami, how senior
are we talking? Are we just talking like a low
level prison guard or were talking about somebody quite Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
It was my understanding. He was a prison guard and
he was quite old when when I saw him obviously,
and by the time they did the investigation, which was
in nineteen ninety one, when they set up the unit,
you know, most of them were either dead. Originally there
were forty six people identified who'd come to New Zealanders

(04:40):
and who would possibly be war criminals, so there was
quite a few, but of course by the nineteen nineties
most of them had died.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
Fascinating. So do we just not really care about this
stuff very much?

Speaker 2 (04:51):
I think we. I think we do care about it.
And obviously the Gang patch legislation, which is coming into
fall soon, does indicate that we care about in this
case offensive symbols. But we have been very reluctant to
legislate and to act in terms of prosecutions in this country.

(05:13):
So the gang legislation is actually a departure from what
the position that we've tended to adopt.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
How fascinating. Paul, Thanks for chatting to us. Always love
talking to you. That's Paul Spoonley, sociologist and expert in
far right extremism.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
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