Chris Finlayson: former Treaty Negotiations Minister fires back at David Seymour's comments amid Treaty Principles Bill debate

There's more back and forth between former ministers and David Seymour over the Treaty Principles Bill. 

Thousands are joining the hīkoi protesting the bill - which will arrive at Parliament tomorrow.

Former Prime Minister Jenny Shipley said Seymour is 'inviting civil war' and former Treaty Negotiations Minister Chris Finlayson said it's doing 'great damage'.

Seymour responded by saying Shipley's comments were grossly irresponsible and Finlayson was showing haughtiness and bitterness.

Finlayson says his comments are immature. 

"I thought David wanted to debate the issues - but when people sort of try and debate them, he turns on them."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Afternoon. A war of words has broken out on the
right of politics. Over the weekend, Former National Party Prime
Minister Jenny Shipley had a crack at ACT leader David Seymour,
accusing him of inviting civil war with his Treaty Principles bill.
This is what David fired back this morning.

Speaker 2 (00:14):
Jenny Shipley, it sounds like she took about as much
care on those comments as she took on reviewing the
accounts into as a director at MAINZI or quite frankly,
I just don't know why she would say that. It
is grossly irresponsible, especially for a former prime minister. And
as for Chrispin Lisson is showing the kind of haughtiness

(00:37):
and business that is unbecoming of someone who's had their time.

Speaker 3 (00:41):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
Jenny's not answering her phone today, but former Treaty negotiation
minister Chris fin Layson is high.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
Chris, good evening, How are you very well?

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Thank you? So did you hear it this morning?

Speaker 3 (00:52):
I did. I striving to the airport and heard him
have a go at Jenny and me, what do you think? Well?
I was a bit of it. I mean, I thought
David wanted to debate the issues, but when people sort
of try and debate them, he turns on them. I
wasn't too worried about me. Really. A lot of people
think I'm a bit haughty and up myself, and it's

(01:13):
fair enough. But I thought the comments about Jenny Shipley
were a bit nasty.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Really, what about the mains her handling of Mainzill.

Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, that kind of thing. You know, She's borne a
heavy burden over that, and I just felt very sorry
for her.

Speaker 1 (01:28):
Now, Chris, what do you make I mean, to some extent,
fair enough that the personal attacks are probably a little
bit out of, you know, off brand for him. Let's
just say. But Dame Jenny Shipley, her comments at the
weekend were pretty wild, don't you think.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Well?

Speaker 3 (01:46):
I think what she was really getting at is that
we've had pretty good race relations in this country. We
all annoy one another from time to time, that we
sort of get on pretty well, and she's just worried
that what could be happening could indicate a serious deterioration
and race relations and pitting New Zealand or against New Zealander.

(02:06):
Do we really want that? No?

Speaker 1 (02:08):
But sometimes I mean, do we really want to shy
away from some tough debates that we need to have
just because we're scared people are going to get upset.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Oh, absolutely not, and I totally agree with that proposition.
We have to have some tough debates, but those who
initiate the debate need to be prepared for a bottle.
And the trouble with David's bill is that some parts
of it don't belong in a Treaty Principles bill. They
belong in a Bill of rights source or in a constitution,

(02:37):
and it's fundamentally flawed and very badly drafted.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
We'll explain to Chris, and you make a fair argument,
but explain something to me.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
Right.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Normally, we allow a bill like this to go to
the select committee process and we nutted out and we
hope to take out the things that we don't like
and keep the things we do like. But what is
going on is that the response to this bill is
so hysterical people are calling for the bill to be
dropped before we even get to that stage. Why.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
Oh, I think that's actually an excellent question, and I
don't want to sort of go on at length, but
let me just say this. My first term as an
opposition MP, the Justice Committee had to deal with Doug
Wollerton's deletion of the principles of the Treaty Bill and
Michael Cullen and Halen Clark, as part of an arrangement

(03:25):
with UZM first said, oh, yeah, you go to a
select committee hearing it was incoherent and badly drafted. I
was on the committee and we had a good look
at it, and then came back to the House and
dumped it. And so initially I was saying to myself, well,
why can't you do the same with this nonsense? But
I think it takes place against a backdrop of perceived

(03:45):
antagonism towards Mari on a number of fronts, and it's
become part of that problem. So, yeah, I hear what
you're saying, but it's a different time, a eerror on
different circumstances.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Chris, What would it also said in the interview is
he sort of suggested that the reason that yourself and
Dame Jenny are speaking out is because you're patch protecting,
Because the reason that we've got to the point that
we have where we are with race relations is partly
because of work that you've done and work that she's done.
What do you make of that?

Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, I don't know Jenny was Prime Minister for two years,
during which time the Naitahu Settlement was concluded, So I
don't know what she's done wrong. As for me, while
I was nine years as Treaty Minister, did the best
to get treaty settlements over the line, did a few
interesting ones, like, for example, the Wanganui River and the

(04:36):
tu Hui won both which have been successful. So I
don't know what particular sins I have to me.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Well, I mean, I exercise I could probably argue with
you about the two hoy one. We've had arguments about
that on air before, haven't well, and I don't think
it was very successful.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
Well we'll wait and see. I think it's actually done
by doing very very well. And I I saw the
Director General of Conservation the other day. I'm on the
table to where a board and she said things going
very well. So that's from doc.

Speaker 1 (05:07):
All right, Chris listen, Thank you appreciate it. Chrispin Leason,
former Treaty Negotiation Minister. For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive,
listen live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays,
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