December 2, 2024 • 7 mins
The Finance Minister has been quick to unpack some of Labour's announcements from over the weekend.
At the party's annual conference, leader Chris Hipkins ruled out joining AUKUS - the security pact between Australia, the UK and the US.
Finance Minister Nicola Willis has said this rejection of AUKUS feels 'premature'.
"Let's remember it was Labour who started the discussions about Pillar Two of AUKUS back in 2021. No one's ever talked about joining the first pillar - but exploring how we could co-operate on technology was something Labour kicked off."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Time to catch up with Finance Minister Nichola Willis gel
A good evening, Jack. Did you indulge in the Black
Friday sales at all? Was it your cup of tea?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
No? Not really my kind of thing, but got on
those who did.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Yeah, so I think the Yeah, there's not only much
you can read into it. Apparently we had more transactions
than last year, but with a slightly lower cost, so
it's about even with last year, which I don't know.
Can you read anything into that when it comes to
our economic progress?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Ah? Well, look, I think a lot of people leave
this Christmas shopping to a bit later, don't they, And
that's when we all part with our precious dollars. So
people will be gearing up for that. And I know
many New Zealanders will share my argue that if you
can spend it at a local business on a local product,
you should very good.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, interest rates the ocr has drop fifty basis points,
but we haven't seen a whole lot of movement from
the banks when it comes to fixed term rates over
the last five or six days. Are you surprised by
that at all?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, look, banks always have a choice about how much
they pass on and I'd always rather see it kiwis
pockets than padding the bottom line of Australian banks, But
of course you know many of them will have priced
it in already. This year you have seen significant drops
across the board. There was a peak for one year
fixed term rates of seven point three four four percent
(01:16):
in January. That's now down to five point nine one
four percent at the rates vary. I see that there
are some banks advertising five point four nine for a
two year fix. So in all of these things, I
shouldn't give advice, but always shop around refixing your mortgage,
make sure you get the best rate possible, because that
(01:38):
is real money into your bank account.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
What did you think of Labour's call regarding ORCUS.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I was surprised by that because it seemed premature to me.
Let's remember that it was Labor who started the discussions
about Pillar two of Aucus back in twenty twenty one.
No one's ever talked about joining the pillar, but exploring
how we could cooperate on technology with something Labor kicked off,
(02:05):
and I was surprised that while those discussions are still ongoing,
they would come to a view. And what it said
to me is rather than taking a cool, calm view
of New Zealand's national interests. Chris Hopkins is putting the
views of his labor activists. First. I think he's a
leader under pressure.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
What would we actually get out of joining Pillar two?
Do you think that case has been sufficiently made.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, that's what we're continuing to explore, Jack, which is
exactly what you would expect us to do, because it's
too soon to say at this stage. And what the
Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister have been doing is
working with Australia in the UK and US to understand
how we could work with them in it and whether
there would be advantages to New Zealand. It's about technology
(02:51):
and it's about maintaining security for New Zealand and what
is an increasingly contested region of the world.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So David Parker said to us before SOCOT this evening
that increasingly it's become obvious that ORCUS is simply an
effort to contain China. Is he right?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, I don't see it that way. These are cooperation.
This is a cooperation agreement between three countries who are
looking to preserve security in the world. As I say,
it's a process that labor began back in twenty twenty one,
which we've continued and we are doing so with New
Zealand's best interests first and foremost in our minds, and
(03:31):
I think it's the right thing to do to let
that process run through and to so prematurely come to
a decision based on a remit at a Labor Party
conference that just suggests that Labor are putting politics ahead
of the national interest.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I was speaking to a security analyst in DC a
month or so ago, and we were talking about UCUS
and the implications for the Pacific and he said that
from his perspective, the thing that was being missed in
some of the orcust discourse so far was that there
would be really significant economic benefits potentially for New Zealand,
that some of this technology could be used by private
(04:05):
industry to actually benefit our economy. So when will New
Zealanders have a really good idea of what Pillar two
would actually entail. It seems to me that's absolutely critical.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, well, I'm sure we will in the coming months.
And that is those are conversations that the Defence Minister,
the Minister are frand I heres the Prime Minister are
regularly engaged in and you're right. Look, our security relationships
go to not just our safety in the world and
our ability to protect the values that we stand for,
but also, of course significantly, they do impact training relationships,
(04:38):
They do impact who our businesses operate with and on
what basis, And so we need to weigh up all
of that and as I say, we think it would
be wrong to have a knee jerk reaction at this
early interval. We need to assess the information and weigh
it up against what's best for keywis would.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
You consider underwriting the risk of fossil fuel exploration like
the oil and gas industry ask you to in July.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, I've actually recused myself from decision making on that matter,
and that is a matter that I have delegated to
the Associate Minister for Finance, Chris Bishop, and obviously the
Cabinet as a whole.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Can we ask why, Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's because I'm complying with the Cabinet Manual in terms
of how we manage any perceived conflicts of interest.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Right, Okay, what is the perceived conflict of interest there?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, per the Cabinet Manual, I'm not going to disclose
or go into the detail of that so much as
to say that New Zealanders can be assured that I
have made the decision that I should recuse myself from
that decision so that I can be free from any
accusations of bus. I always put New Zealand's interests first,
and if that means recusing myself in some matters, then
(05:48):
I will.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Is the government's investment one hundred and fifteen million bucks
into sold the zero is that gone? Pease?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah? Look, this is the New Zealand Green Investment Fund,
which was started by the previous government, which was intentionally
set out pretty independent of ministers in its decision making.
So they've told me they made one hundred and forty
five million dollar capital commitment and that to date one
hundred and fifteen million has been drawn down in subordinated lending.
(06:15):
What they are now trying to do is work out
how much is at risk, and they tell me that
they first need to understand the advice from the legal
and insolvency advisors. It's really important to me. One, I'm
really concerned for everyone who's lost their job here at
a terrible time, just before Christmas. That's really rough. So
I want to understand what has gone on, and the
(06:38):
second thing I want to understand is are all steps
being taken to protect tax payers money? And was this
a prudent investment to have made. So I will be
meeting with the New Zealand Green Investment Fund later this
week to ask those questions, as you would expect me
to do.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Your surplus definitely delayed, right, No, I haven't heard anyone
saying it's going to be saying at twenty seven twenty eight.
We're looking at twenty eight twenty nine minimum.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Right. Well, I make an announced about the forecasts on
the seventeenth of December and that's when I will share
them what the New Zealand is.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Can you tell us when you make a decision on
the Indo Islander replacement or the future of the replacement
theory as well?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Not long to wait. Jack will be coming out with
our plans for safe, reliable Fury crossings into the future
in the coming weeks.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Thank you for your time, We appreciate it. Finance Minister
Nichola willis with us this evening for more from Hither
Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to news talks. It'd be
from four pm weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
Time to catch up with Finance Minister Nichola Willis gel
A good evening, Jack. Did you indulge in the Black
Friday sales at all? Was it your cup of tea?
Speaker 2 (00:08):
No? Not really my kind of thing, but got on
those who did.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Yeah, so I think the Yeah, there's not only much
you can read into it. Apparently we had more transactions
than last year, but with a slightly lower cost, so
it's about even with last year, which I don't know.
Can you read anything into that when it comes to
our economic progress?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Ah? Well, look, I think a lot of people leave
this Christmas shopping to a bit later, don't they, And
that's when we all part with our precious dollars. So
people will be gearing up for that. And I know
many New Zealanders will share my argue that if you
can spend it at a local business on a local product,
you should very good.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Now, interest rates the ocr has drop fifty basis points,
but we haven't seen a whole lot of movement from
the banks when it comes to fixed term rates over
the last five or six days. Are you surprised by
that at all?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, look, banks always have a choice about how much
they pass on and I'd always rather see it kiwis
pockets than padding the bottom line of Australian banks, But
of course you know many of them will have priced
it in already. This year you have seen significant drops
across the board. There was a peak for one year
fixed term rates of seven point three four four percent
(01:16):
in January. That's now down to five point nine one
four percent at the rates vary. I see that there
are some banks advertising five point four nine for a
two year fix. So in all of these things, I
shouldn't give advice, but always shop around refixing your mortgage,
make sure you get the best rate possible, because that
(01:38):
is real money into your bank account.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
What did you think of Labour's call regarding ORCUS.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
I was surprised by that because it seemed premature to me.
Let's remember that it was Labor who started the discussions
about Pillar two of Aucus back in twenty twenty one.
No one's ever talked about joining the pillar, but exploring
how we could cooperate on technology with something Labor kicked off,
(02:05):
and I was surprised that while those discussions are still ongoing,
they would come to a view. And what it said
to me is rather than taking a cool, calm view
of New Zealand's national interests. Chris Hopkins is putting the
views of his labor activists. First. I think he's a
leader under pressure.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
What would we actually get out of joining Pillar two?
Do you think that case has been sufficiently made.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, that's what we're continuing to explore, Jack, which is
exactly what you would expect us to do, because it's
too soon to say at this stage. And what the
Foreign Minister and the Prime Minister have been doing is
working with Australia in the UK and US to understand
how we could work with them in it and whether
there would be advantages to New Zealand. It's about technology
(02:51):
and it's about maintaining security for New Zealand and what
is an increasingly contested region of the world.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
So David Parker said to us before SOCOT this evening
that increasingly it's become obvious that ORCUS is simply an
effort to contain China. Is he right?
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, I don't see it that way. These are cooperation.
This is a cooperation agreement between three countries who are
looking to preserve security in the world. As I say,
it's a process that labor began back in twenty twenty one,
which we've continued and we are doing so with New
Zealand's best interests first and foremost in our minds, and
(03:31):
I think it's the right thing to do to let
that process run through and to so prematurely come to
a decision based on a remit at a Labor Party
conference that just suggests that Labor are putting politics ahead
of the national interest.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I was speaking to a security analyst in DC a
month or so ago, and we were talking about UCUS
and the implications for the Pacific and he said that
from his perspective, the thing that was being missed in
some of the orcust discourse so far was that there
would be really significant economic benefits potentially for New Zealand,
that some of this technology could be used by private
(04:05):
industry to actually benefit our economy. So when will New
Zealanders have a really good idea of what Pillar two
would actually entail. It seems to me that's absolutely critical.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Yeah, well, I'm sure we will in the coming months.
And that is those are conversations that the Defence Minister,
the Minister are frand I heres the Prime Minister are
regularly engaged in and you're right. Look, our security relationships
go to not just our safety in the world and
our ability to protect the values that we stand for,
but also, of course significantly, they do impact training relationships,
(04:38):
They do impact who our businesses operate with and on
what basis, And so we need to weigh up all
of that and as I say, we think it would
be wrong to have a knee jerk reaction at this
early interval. We need to assess the information and weigh
it up against what's best for keywis would.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
You consider underwriting the risk of fossil fuel exploration like
the oil and gas industry ask you to in July.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Well, I've actually recused myself from decision making on that matter,
and that is a matter that I have delegated to
the Associate Minister for Finance, Chris Bishop, and obviously the
Cabinet as a whole.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Can we ask why, Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's because I'm complying with the Cabinet Manual in terms
of how we manage any perceived conflicts of interest.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Right, Okay, what is the perceived conflict of interest there?
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, per the Cabinet Manual, I'm not going to disclose
or go into the detail of that so much as
to say that New Zealanders can be assured that I
have made the decision that I should recuse myself from
that decision so that I can be free from any
accusations of bus. I always put New Zealand's interests first,
and if that means recusing myself in some matters, then
(05:48):
I will.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Is the government's investment one hundred and fifteen million bucks
into sold the zero is that gone? Pease?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Yeah? Look, this is the New Zealand Green Investment Fund,
which was started by the previous government, which was intentionally
set out pretty independent of ministers in its decision making.
So they've told me they made one hundred and forty
five million dollar capital commitment and that to date one
hundred and fifteen million has been drawn down in subordinated lending.
(06:15):
What they are now trying to do is work out
how much is at risk, and they tell me that
they first need to understand the advice from the legal
and insolvency advisors. It's really important to me. One, I'm
really concerned for everyone who's lost their job here at
a terrible time, just before Christmas. That's really rough. So
I want to understand what has gone on, and the
(06:38):
second thing I want to understand is are all steps
being taken to protect tax payers money? And was this
a prudent investment to have made. So I will be
meeting with the New Zealand Green Investment Fund later this
week to ask those questions, as you would expect me
to do.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Your surplus definitely delayed, right, No, I haven't heard anyone
saying it's going to be saying at twenty seven twenty eight.
We're looking at twenty eight twenty nine minimum.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Right. Well, I make an announced about the forecasts on
the seventeenth of December and that's when I will share
them what the New Zealand is.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Can you tell us when you make a decision on
the Indo Islander replacement or the future of the replacement
theory as well?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Not long to wait. Jack will be coming out with
our plans for safe, reliable Fury crossings into the future
in the coming weeks.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Thank you for your time, We appreciate it. Finance Minister
Nichola willis with us this evening for more from Hither
Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to news talks. It'd be
from four pm weekdays or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio,
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