Australia's Deputy Prime Minister - and Defence Minister - says it's time to strengthen the relationship with New Zealand.
The Foreign and Defence Ministers of New Zealand and Australia are meeting tomorrow.
Australia's Richard Marles says in terms of relationships - his country's had more dialogue with China and reinstated trade, but there are also significant security anxieties.
"This is a time to be doubling down with friends - so many other countries in the region face the same challenges, but for Australia and New Zealand, there are no two countries as close to each other."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Australia and New Zealand are set to discuss foreign policy,
security and defense during high level talks tomorrow. It comes
after Defense Minister Judith Collins warned earlier this week that
China's recent use of the continental Ballistic missile in the
Pacific had changed everything. Australia's Deputy Prime Minister, Richard Miles
and Foreign Minister Penny Wong will meet with Judith Collins
(00:23):
and wins Peter's and the Australian Deputy Prime Minister and
Defense Minister Richard Miles himself joins me. Now, Hello Richard,
and welcome to the program, and welcome to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good afternoon, Andrew. It's great to be talking with you.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
So is this week we delayed our defense plan because
of the ICBM. How did Australia view China's use of
that missile?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, I think what it tells us is that we well, firstly,
we are living in a world where which is much
less predictable, where there is much greater contest, strategic contest,
and that contest is playing out in the Pacific as well.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It's you know, for those of us who.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Are living in the Pacific as well as our neighbors
the Pacific island countries. We're not immune from the strategic
contest which we're seeing throughout the Endo Pacific and I
think the tests of the ICBM by China is a
perfect example of that, but it's not the only example,
and it really does remind us that what this requires
(01:25):
is a rethinking and certainly we've been going through this process.
I know New Zealand is now going through itself about
what our strategic challenges are and therefore what kind of
a defense force we need to meet those challenges, and
therefore what we need to build in the future.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
While also trading with China, who is, for both about countries,
one of our biggest trading partners.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And that's true, and China is Australia's largest trading partner.
It's obviously a very large trading partner for New Zealand
as well, and so you know, it's a complex relationship.
It's a difficult relifelationship with China. I mean to be clear,
we want the most productive relationship we can have with
China and a key part of what we've sought to
do since coming to power back in twenty twenty two
(02:10):
is to try and stabilize our relationship with China, and
we've seen the fruits of that with much greater dialogue
at a ministerial level. We've seen the reinstitution of the
better part of twenty billion dollars of trade between China
and Australia. But at the same time, there are significant
security anxieties with China, and so we've just got to
(02:31):
manage all of that, I mean, And so in that sense,
we talk about working with China where we can, disagreeing
with China where we must, and that's the challenge that
we face. Nothing here is obvious, the way through is complicated,
but one thing is clear. This is a time to
be doubling down with friends. So many of our countries
(02:53):
in the region face the same challenges, but for Australia
and New Zealand, there are no two countries as close
to each other as Australia in New Zealand. This is
the time to be doubling down in our relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
And we need to be clear with China that we
want peace, but we also need to be clear that
they can't take advantage of our smaller South Pacific nations,
and therefore we have a responsibility to be able to
protect our brothers and sisters throughout the Pacific.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And so on.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
That New Zealand spends one point one seven percent of
GDP on defense, You, on the other hand, spend one
point nine percent. There's the old rule of thumb that
two percent is the optimum level. Would you, in an
ideal world like to see New Zealand spending more money
on its defense capability so that you and I we
can actually defend our patch better.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, the last thing I'm going to do is give
advice to the New Zealand government about how it allocates
its budget. From our point of view, worre at about
two now, and we're growing our defense budget to two
point three two point four over the course of the decade,
and that does reflect a much more challenging strategic landscape
(03:59):
in our you and so we are dramatically increasing our
military capability. I mean to put that into dollars, that's
about an additional five billion Australian dollars in over the
next four years, about an additional fifty billion Australian dollars
over the next decade in terms of our defense budget,
(04:20):
and those represent as significant increases in peace time in
our defense spending really since the end of the Second
World War. So that gives you a sense of the
strategic landscape that we observe and that we are responding to.
I think what we will be talking to New Zealand
about during the course of today tomorrow is really making
(04:41):
sure that whatever either of us are spending on defense,
we need to be maximizing that spend through a much
greater coordination between our two countries. And we've actually done
so much in the last year or two in relation
to that, and so the real opportunity not just in
terms of how much we spend, but the quality of
that bend is where we can get so much value
(05:03):
through the very strong relationship that our two countries have.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So in terms of that cooperation, August Pillar two do
you want us to join that.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Well? August Pillar Aucust or is a technology sharing arrangement. Obviously,
August Pillar one is particularly around Australia acquiring a submarine
capability or a particular submarine capability, but Pillar two is
about looking at new innovative technologies in the defense space.
We are consulting with a number of countries, including New Zealand,
(05:35):
exploring opportunities where on a project by project basis, there
might be an ability for us to work together. None
of this is going to happen tomorrow, it's but over
the longer term. Clearly New Zealand has capability, and clearly
New Zealand is a country with whom we have great
(05:56):
strategic trust.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
But do we need August Pillar two to be able
to work together with you? In other words, is our
current information and technology sharing arrangements not up to par.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I wouldn't put it in those terms at all.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I mean there's nothing about Aucust Pillar two which becomes
conditional in the context of our relationship. We want to
be as close to New Zealand as we can possibly be,
whatever happens in terms of working on particular projects in
relation to Aucust Pillar two.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And in fact, if you look at what we've.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Been doing over the course of the last twelve months,
we've seen dramatic increases in the way in which our
two countries have cooperated around military planning, for example, looking
at how we can better kind of get bang for
our buck in terms of our procurement spend. We're looking
at every opportunity to create a more ANZAC feel, if
(06:53):
you like. In terms of the way and which our
two defense forces operate. And that, as I say, it
goes back to maximizing what both of our countries are
spending on defense, the quality of that spend, and reflecting
the fact that our two countries have complete trust. It's
our closest relationship. It is for New Zealand as well.
It makes sense for us to be working as closely
(07:15):
together as we can be.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Well, let's talk about relationships, because obviously the Australian Labor
Party is clearly convinced that AUCUS is a good idea.
And yet the New Zealand Labor Party voted last weekend
that it would not join AUCUST. They went further than that,
they said they would exit AUCUST if New Zealand were
to join and they ever become the government. Again, should
you be talking to your brothers across the Tasman about
(07:37):
a bipartisan agreement.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Well, obviously what the New Zealand Labor Party says and
does is a matter for it from our point of view.
In terms of the pillar one which is around Australia
acquiring a particular submarine capability that is clearly specific to Australia,
the idea of Australia and New Zealand working together in
(08:02):
terms of new technologies is not a particularly new idea.
It really is just exploring what opportunities there might be
on a project by project basis going forward. As I say,
none of this is happening tomorrow. We are very much
in an exploratory phase. We're not just talking to New Zealand,
but we're also talking with Canada, Japan, Korea, and you
(08:26):
can see what we're looking at is countries that have capability,
that they have technological expertise, but countries with whom our selves,
the United States and the Arited Kingdom shared deep strategic
trust and it's really no more complicated than that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Richard, I trust you have a very fruitful meeting tomorrow.
Thank you so much for coming over and thank you
for your time today. That is Richard Miles, Australian Deputy
play Minister and Defense Minister. And of course the summit happens,
the high level talks happens tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
News Talks it B from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
Australia and New Zealand are set to discuss foreign policy,
security and defense during high level talks tomorrow. It comes
after Defense Minister Judith Collins warned earlier this week that
China's recent use of the continental Ballistic missile in the
Pacific had changed everything. Australia's Deputy Prime Minister, Richard Miles
and Foreign Minister Penny Wong will meet with Judith Collins
(00:23):
and wins Peter's and the Australian Deputy Prime Minister and
Defense Minister Richard Miles himself joins me. Now, Hello Richard,
and welcome to the program, and welcome to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Good afternoon, Andrew. It's great to be talking with you.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
So is this week we delayed our defense plan because
of the ICBM. How did Australia view China's use of
that missile?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Well, I think what it tells us is that we well, firstly,
we are living in a world where which is much
less predictable, where there is much greater contest, strategic contest,
and that contest is playing out in the Pacific as well.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It's you know, for those of us who.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Are living in the Pacific as well as our neighbors
the Pacific island countries. We're not immune from the strategic
contest which we're seeing throughout the Endo Pacific and I
think the tests of the ICBM by China is a
perfect example of that, but it's not the only example,
and it really does remind us that what this requires
(01:25):
is a rethinking and certainly we've been going through this process.
I know New Zealand is now going through itself about
what our strategic challenges are and therefore what kind of
a defense force we need to meet those challenges, and
therefore what we need to build in the future.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
While also trading with China, who is, for both about countries,
one of our biggest trading partners.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
And that's true, and China is Australia's largest trading partner.
It's obviously a very large trading partner for New Zealand
as well, and so you know, it's a complex relationship.
It's a difficult relifelationship with China. I mean to be clear,
we want the most productive relationship we can have with
China and a key part of what we've sought to
do since coming to power back in twenty twenty two
(02:10):
is to try and stabilize our relationship with China, and
we've seen the fruits of that with much greater dialogue
at a ministerial level. We've seen the reinstitution of the
better part of twenty billion dollars of trade between China
and Australia. But at the same time, there are significant
security anxieties with China, and so we've just got to
(02:31):
manage all of that, I mean, And so in that sense,
we talk about working with China where we can, disagreeing
with China where we must, and that's the challenge that
we face. Nothing here is obvious, the way through is complicated,
but one thing is clear. This is a time to
be doubling down with friends. So many of our countries
(02:53):
in the region face the same challenges, but for Australia
and New Zealand, there are no two countries as close
to each other as Australia in New Zealand. This is
the time to be doubling down in our relationship.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
And we need to be clear with China that we
want peace, but we also need to be clear that
they can't take advantage of our smaller South Pacific nations,
and therefore we have a responsibility to be able to
protect our brothers and sisters throughout the Pacific.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
And so on.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
That New Zealand spends one point one seven percent of
GDP on defense, You, on the other hand, spend one
point nine percent. There's the old rule of thumb that
two percent is the optimum level. Would you, in an
ideal world like to see New Zealand spending more money
on its defense capability so that you and I we
can actually defend our patch better.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well, the last thing I'm going to do is give
advice to the New Zealand government about how it allocates
its budget. From our point of view, worre at about
two now, and we're growing our defense budget to two
point three two point four over the course of the decade,
and that does reflect a much more challenging strategic landscape
(03:59):
in our you and so we are dramatically increasing our
military capability. I mean to put that into dollars, that's
about an additional five billion Australian dollars in over the
next four years, about an additional fifty billion Australian dollars
over the next decade in terms of our defense budget,
(04:20):
and those represent as significant increases in peace time in
our defense spending really since the end of the Second
World War. So that gives you a sense of the
strategic landscape that we observe and that we are responding to.
I think what we will be talking to New Zealand
about during the course of today tomorrow is really making
(04:41):
sure that whatever either of us are spending on defense,
we need to be maximizing that spend through a much
greater coordination between our two countries. And we've actually done
so much in the last year or two in relation
to that, and so the real opportunity not just in
terms of how much we spend, but the quality of
that bend is where we can get so much value
(05:03):
through the very strong relationship that our two countries have.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
So in terms of that cooperation, August Pillar two do
you want us to join that.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Well? August Pillar Aucust or is a technology sharing arrangement. Obviously,
August Pillar one is particularly around Australia acquiring a submarine
capability or a particular submarine capability, but Pillar two is
about looking at new innovative technologies in the defense space.
We are consulting with a number of countries, including New Zealand,
(05:35):
exploring opportunities where on a project by project basis, there
might be an ability for us to work together. None
of this is going to happen tomorrow, it's but over
the longer term. Clearly New Zealand has capability, and clearly
New Zealand is a country with whom we have great
(05:56):
strategic trust.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
But do we need August Pillar two to be able
to work together with you? In other words, is our
current information and technology sharing arrangements not up to par.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I wouldn't put it in those terms at all.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I mean there's nothing about Aucust Pillar two which becomes
conditional in the context of our relationship. We want to
be as close to New Zealand as we can possibly be,
whatever happens in terms of working on particular projects in
relation to Aucust Pillar two.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
And in fact, if you look at what we've.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Been doing over the course of the last twelve months,
we've seen dramatic increases in the way in which our
two countries have cooperated around military planning, for example, looking
at how we can better kind of get bang for
our buck in terms of our procurement spend. We're looking
at every opportunity to create a more ANZAC feel, if
(06:53):
you like. In terms of the way and which our
two defense forces operate. And that, as I say, it
goes back to maximizing what both of our countries are
spending on defense, the quality of that spend, and reflecting
the fact that our two countries have complete trust. It's
our closest relationship. It is for New Zealand as well.
It makes sense for us to be working as closely
(07:15):
together as we can be.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Well, let's talk about relationships, because obviously the Australian Labor
Party is clearly convinced that AUCUS is a good idea.
And yet the New Zealand Labor Party voted last weekend
that it would not join AUCUST. They went further than that,
they said they would exit AUCUST if New Zealand were
to join and they ever become the government. Again, should
you be talking to your brothers across the Tasman about
(07:37):
a bipartisan agreement.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Well, obviously what the New Zealand Labor Party says and
does is a matter for it from our point of view.
In terms of the pillar one which is around Australia
acquiring a particular submarine capability that is clearly specific to Australia,
the idea of Australia and New Zealand working together in
(08:02):
terms of new technologies is not a particularly new idea.
It really is just exploring what opportunities there might be
on a project by project basis going forward. As I say,
none of this is happening tomorrow. We are very much
in an exploratory phase. We're not just talking to New Zealand,
but we're also talking with Canada, Japan, Korea, and you
(08:26):
can see what we're looking at is countries that have capability,
that they have technological expertise, but countries with whom our selves,
the United States and the Arited Kingdom shared deep strategic
trust and it's really no more complicated than that.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Richard, I trust you have a very fruitful meeting tomorrow.
Thank you so much for coming over and thank you
for your time today. That is Richard Miles, Australian Deputy
play Minister and Defense Minister. And of course the summit happens,
the high level talks happens tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to
News Talks it B from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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