December 16, 2024 • 7 mins
The Assistant Police Commissioner says a trip police officers took to China is no different to any Kiwi going on holiday.
More than 30 police staffers visited in October.
Concerns have been raised over the potential for foreign interference, but police say it was a private, self-funded trip to encourage cultural competency.
Sam Hoyle says individuals paid for every little part of the trip.
"Our staff are allowed to travel to China - they did all the checks and everything sensible you expect people to do to take a holiday in China if you work for the New Zealand Government."
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right now, though, to the serious business. There are concerns
a number of New Zealand police officers may have been
the target of Chinese spying well on a trip to
China or October. Police say it was private, self funded,
but organized by the police's ethnic responses of responsive manager
and a tour company, a Chinese tour company. Experts, including
(00:21):
former SIS Minister Andrew Little, have raised serious concerns about
the trip that included a meeting with a Chinese government official,
Sam Hoyalse, the Assistant police Commissioner. Good evening, Good evening,
thanks for being on the show. You said earlier today
that you were going to check into whether any of
them were given gifts on this trip. Have you done
that and were they?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I have done that, and I can confirm that one
of the buffet meals they had, a fridge magnet was
left at each of the police mets on the table.
That's the entire chigel of gifts they received.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Were any of the flights or accommodation or meals discounted?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Not at all. Everyone. Everyone paid their way. They've paid
their way in full. Jessica, who organized the trip, is
acutely aware of the risks around foreign interference and the
appearances of that. She made sure that everything was paid
in full. Every trip, every side excursion of people decided
(01:26):
to take them up, or you step out of the
day's events and go shopping.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
So you you as police, you are absolutely confident that
none of the flights, none of that, anything that's been
paid for and you've checked was discounted. They haven't got
any advantage over a fire went on my own.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
No, the only advantage that have you going on young
is that someone else has organized it for them, that
Jessica has done the work. Our staff were allowed to
travel to China. They abided by all the PSR protectives.
Sure of your requirements that are current in New Zealand
for all of government, not just police. They checked with
(02:05):
ISG before they travel. That's our International Services Group. Now
we have staff full time in Beijing and Hong Kong.
We work with the Chinese on policing matters. They did
all the checks and everything sensible you expect. Who were
there to take a holiday in China if you work
for the own government.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
If it was a private holiday, why was Jessica organizing it?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
She was organizing it for a colleagues at work.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Is that is that a good use of j justic
as time.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You're making assumptions she did on work time, Ryan like
she did it because she's interested in the exposing other
police to the cultural experience. You know, for our ethnics,
liais and staff who work in this space, they are
acutely aware of the risks. They live this personally and
professionally all the time, both them and their families. They
(02:58):
are approached by special interest groups out of a number
of countries you know, who have a the spoiler living
in Aokland, who try and pressure them, get in front
of them, you know, make them accept they will real
on issues. Currently we're talking about China, we could be
talking about India or any other number of countries. These
people who lived this space every day every week, both
(03:20):
personally and professionally, understand the risks.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Who was the official they met with?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I understand he was a local cultural attache who invited
himself to the dinner.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And what did they talk about?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I don't have the details of what that conversation was.
I have confidence in our people that were there. They
are as I say, they lived in this space all
the time. They know the risk they go into these conversations,
eyes wide open.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
How did he know that the dinner was happening. I mean,
if this is just a private holiday, I mean it
all sound. I mean I can understand what you're saying. Look,
for God's sakes, Ryan, it's a fridge magnet. Get over this.
But you do have the former SIS Minister and Andrew
Little saying anybody with a level of influence, knowledge or
understanding about New Zealand and New Zealand decision making of
politics and institutions, and anyone with access to information or
(04:13):
influence China is very interested in. He says it would
be important for the police hierarchy to take a closer
look at the officer's disclosures and the extent of the
hospitality they enjoyed at the expense of provincial or Beijing
governments during the trip.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I read that today in the media somewhere. He's not
wrong about that that China would have an interest. We
know they would have an interest. That's why we have
the PSO requirements for all of government employees. That's why
they sorted buy some ISG before we went New Zealand.
Police is not flying to those risks. We have staff
(04:51):
who live in work in Beijing and Hong Kong who
are in that environment all the time, and we have
our ethnic Leosan staff and cities like Auckland who live
and work in that environment the entire time. They're aware
of the risks and they are live to that all
the time.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Did they take their private phones? Did anyone check them
on return.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
They took famous I can only assume they took their
private phones. I do know they left all police electronics behind,
which is always sensible when you're going away on holiday.
And though we are not in the business of checking
our staffs private phones when they were turned from holiday.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Would you do this type of trip again happily? Well,
I guess allow it to be done again.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I would allow staff take leave and travel to China,
whether they do it by themselves, whether they do it's
part of a public tour, whether they organize another group
of police staff to go together. You know, employees out
of workplaces organizing trips together is not unheard of, not
just in police. I'd expect that probably the PSO requirements.
(05:59):
I expect that they would speak to IG before they travel.
Either expect they look at the in fact advice on
the trouble on the country they intend traveling to to
make sure it's safe. They did all those sensible things.
There is no rule anywhere in the New Zealand system
that these officers couldn't travel to China.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
You're absolutely right. What did it cost them? Out of interest?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I have seen a couple of I don't want to
quote one, I might get it wrong. What roughly it
was several thousand dollars for each of them per person.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
A couple of grand to go. How long were they there?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I said several thousand dollars a few days, four days
or something. I've seen the itinerary like its look like
a good itinerary. They've visited some amazing sites and museums
and gorges and saw some great.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Stuff, all right, And we didn't bring home many spies no,
all right, Sam, thank you very much for your time.
Appreciate it. Sam Hoyle, the Assistant Police Commissioner. For more
from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Right now, though, to the serious business. There are concerns
a number of New Zealand police officers may have been
the target of Chinese spying well on a trip to
China or October. Police say it was private, self funded,
but organized by the police's ethnic responses of responsive manager
and a tour company, a Chinese tour company. Experts, including
(00:21):
former SIS Minister Andrew Little, have raised serious concerns about
the trip that included a meeting with a Chinese government official,
Sam Hoyalse, the Assistant police Commissioner. Good evening, Good evening,
thanks for being on the show. You said earlier today
that you were going to check into whether any of
them were given gifts on this trip. Have you done
that and were they?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
I have done that, and I can confirm that one
of the buffet meals they had, a fridge magnet was
left at each of the police mets on the table.
That's the entire chigel of gifts they received.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Were any of the flights or accommodation or meals discounted?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Not at all. Everyone. Everyone paid their way. They've paid
their way in full. Jessica, who organized the trip, is
acutely aware of the risks around foreign interference and the
appearances of that. She made sure that everything was paid
in full. Every trip, every side excursion of people decided
(01:26):
to take them up, or you step out of the
day's events and go shopping.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
So you you as police, you are absolutely confident that
none of the flights, none of that, anything that's been
paid for and you've checked was discounted. They haven't got
any advantage over a fire went on my own.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
No, the only advantage that have you going on young
is that someone else has organized it for them, that
Jessica has done the work. Our staff were allowed to
travel to China. They abided by all the PSR protectives.
Sure of your requirements that are current in New Zealand
for all of government, not just police. They checked with
(02:05):
ISG before they travel. That's our International Services Group. Now
we have staff full time in Beijing and Hong Kong.
We work with the Chinese on policing matters. They did
all the checks and everything sensible you expect. Who were
there to take a holiday in China if you work
for the own government.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
If it was a private holiday, why was Jessica organizing it?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
She was organizing it for a colleagues at work.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Is that is that a good use of j justic
as time.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You're making assumptions she did on work time, Ryan like
she did it because she's interested in the exposing other
police to the cultural experience. You know, for our ethnics,
liais and staff who work in this space, they are
acutely aware of the risks. They live this personally and
professionally all the time, both them and their families. They
(02:58):
are approached by special interest groups out of a number
of countries you know, who have a the spoiler living
in Aokland, who try and pressure them, get in front
of them, you know, make them accept they will real
on issues. Currently we're talking about China, we could be
talking about India or any other number of countries. These
people who lived this space every day every week, both
(03:20):
personally and professionally, understand the risks.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Who was the official they met with?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I understand he was a local cultural attache who invited
himself to the dinner.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And what did they talk about?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I don't have the details of what that conversation was.
I have confidence in our people that were there. They
are as I say, they lived in this space all
the time. They know the risk they go into these conversations,
eyes wide open.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
How did he know that the dinner was happening. I mean,
if this is just a private holiday, I mean it
all sound. I mean I can understand what you're saying. Look,
for God's sakes, Ryan, it's a fridge magnet. Get over this.
But you do have the former SIS Minister and Andrew
Little saying anybody with a level of influence, knowledge or
understanding about New Zealand and New Zealand decision making of
politics and institutions, and anyone with access to information or
(04:13):
influence China is very interested in. He says it would
be important for the police hierarchy to take a closer
look at the officer's disclosures and the extent of the
hospitality they enjoyed at the expense of provincial or Beijing
governments during the trip.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I read that today in the media somewhere. He's not
wrong about that that China would have an interest. We
know they would have an interest. That's why we have
the PSO requirements for all of government employees. That's why
they sorted buy some ISG before we went New Zealand.
Police is not flying to those risks. We have staff
(04:51):
who live in work in Beijing and Hong Kong who
are in that environment all the time, and we have
our ethnic Leosan staff and cities like Auckland who live
and work in that environment the entire time. They're aware
of the risks and they are live to that all
the time.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Did they take their private phones? Did anyone check them
on return.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
They took famous I can only assume they took their
private phones. I do know they left all police electronics behind,
which is always sensible when you're going away on holiday.
And though we are not in the business of checking
our staffs private phones when they were turned from holiday.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Would you do this type of trip again happily? Well,
I guess allow it to be done again.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I would allow staff take leave and travel to China,
whether they do it by themselves, whether they do it's
part of a public tour, whether they organize another group
of police staff to go together. You know, employees out
of workplaces organizing trips together is not unheard of, not
just in police. I'd expect that probably the PSO requirements.
(05:59):
I expect that they would speak to IG before they travel.
Either expect they look at the in fact advice on
the trouble on the country they intend traveling to to
make sure it's safe. They did all those sensible things.
There is no rule anywhere in the New Zealand system
that these officers couldn't travel to China.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
You're absolutely right. What did it cost them? Out of interest?
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I have seen a couple of I don't want to
quote one, I might get it wrong. What roughly it
was several thousand dollars for each of them per person.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
A couple of grand to go. How long were they there?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
I said several thousand dollars a few days, four days
or something. I've seen the itinerary like its look like
a good itinerary. They've visited some amazing sites and museums
and gorges and saw some great.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Stuff, all right, And we didn't bring home many spies no,
all right, Sam, thank you very much for your time.
Appreciate it. Sam Hoyle, the Assistant Police Commissioner. For more
from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.