February 13, 2025 • 6 mins
Questionable spending by schools has been flagged by the Auditor General.
According to a new report, 54 schools had spent money in ways that personally benefited their principals in 2023.
Expenses include Pilates classes and even overseas family travel.
New Zealand Principals Federation President Leanne Otene discusses the issue.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Digulous.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
So the Order to General has flags some questionable spending
by schools. In twenty twenty three, according to a new report,
auditors found that fifty four schools had spent money in
a way that personally benefited their principles. Some examples of
this sort pilates, classes, adventure, tourism, even overseas family travel.
So the antenna is the New Zealand Principles Federation prison
(00:25):
and she joins me, Now, hell are they am oh
cureda plartis and overseas trips don't sound like education spend,
do they?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well? Lock you know, That's what the audit and process
is all about, really, is just to ask those questions
about why boards of trustees are, you know, are okaying
some of these payments. So obviously the auditing process is
there to ensure that there is checks made by someone
other than the principle and they make recommendations. This is
(00:54):
not you. This happens every.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Year, yes, But the question is are pilates and over
trip overseas trips okay or not?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Look, I'm not going to comment on the individual schools
or whether or not boards or have you know, should
have spent it on this or that is I have
no context to the reason behind I guess the spending
and I wasn't at the board table, and that's really important.
And it's not that I'm deflecting from your question. It's
just that the boards would have talked about why and
(01:24):
the reason for and had a long conversation about the spend.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Are boards of trustees any good at this?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah? Well, this is the thing. Our boards of trustees
are actually representatives of our community. So not all boards
will have someone on the air that has got unfinancial skills.
You know, some of the biggest schools might have representatives
for accountants, but no, many boards don't have you know,
members who have financial oversight. And so what really happens
(01:57):
is most schools will have a off site or an
off site accountant to double check and make sure that
the boards have all the information, flag any spending that
or flag any budgets that are going over so there
are checks and balances in there. Boards of trustees really
do need professional development in and around financial management tens.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Fortunately, Yeah, I understand, and I agree. And ten schools
that are reported to have made excessive gifts. Do schools
get carried away with gifts? Are they necessary?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
No, I don't think so. And once again, it would
be a discussion that's had at the board table of
which I haven't been part of, so I can't comment
on the reasons why that has been done. Certainly, they
will all have policies and around gifts, I mean there
are and gifts sort of cover a lot of things,
(02:51):
so you know, once again there's a conversation head and
they'll follow the policy that the school has put in place.
Those policies are often you know, they are in line
with the Ministry advice and guidance, and they also have
to meet those financial expectations by the auditors, so they
are double cheaped.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
No, Jenny from the Principal's Federation, I thank you very much. Meanwhile,
one of the schools that was named in the report
was bream Bay College. In twenty twenty three, Bream Bay
College spent ten thousand dollars on a farewell event for
the school's former principal, and five thousand of that went
on buying a jacket for all the staff to wear
them photos so they look good. Julian Cosgrove is the
(03:32):
current principal. He joins you, now, how are Julian?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Afternoon?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
The board approved the jackets. The audience, the general has
flagged it. How do you justify it?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Look, spending money on jackets is fairly common in schools.
They're important for staff, especially on duty. So the jackets
went just for that occasion. They were used and continue
to be used by staff on gt both to be
identifiable for students but also keeps them warm wintless north.
But we do so it's a nice.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
So these are like puffers. These aren't dress jackets. These
are like puffers or something.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
No, no, these are These are jackets that you would
expect to see staff that we are on duty in
a school.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I had to say this. So we talk in grammar
school with school back in the day, and nobody got
bought jackets anywhere.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I've been at schools where that's been practiced in the past.
Sometimes they's subsidized and sometimes they've been given.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So what do you say to the taxpayers, which includes you,
who are listening to this and they hear that the
staff are getting five thousand dollars worth of jackets so
that they look good.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, it wasn't just about looking good. I understand the consume,
but actually it's it's a fairly practical item for a
staff member who does duty outside. Obviously, we have a
fairly large site, so there's a lot of duty done outside,
and so do you I.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Still think it was a good decision when we were
in the middle of a cost of living crisis and
everybody's doing it hard.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Look, I wasn't part of the group that made the decision,
so I wouldn't want a question with us the right
decision at the time.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Okay, Well, here's the thing. You might be leaving soon
or one day you know you won't bring Bay College
all the time.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Would you be happy?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Would you be happy enough as part of your farewell
event that people spend ten thousand dollars, including five thousand
dollars on jackets.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Look, from my view, it was a decision made at
the time, and it's not for me to comment on that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
But I'm asking when you leave and you found out
that somebody organizer that do and it was going to
cost ten grand, would you say, well, I don't.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Think it's a fair question, but it's actually a lot
of that funding wasn't spent on an event. So for example,
money was used in there for Kappa hockey uniforms, which
weren't necessarily for the event either. So one of the
things we've done as a school, as we have looked
at where we do now work with an account and
to make sure the way we code things is a
bit easier to follow, because that seems to be I
(05:46):
think part of why we made some mistakes there or
wasn't as obvious it could as it could have been.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
One final question, just talking to LeAnn or Tena, she says,
some boards of trustees don't have any financial experience on them,
but others have accountants and all sorts of people at
brim Bay College, do you have a good board with
financial experience.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
I've got a very good board and there is financial
experience on my board.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yes, all right, I thank you very much for your
time and yeah, thanks man, it's a pleasure. And there
is Julian Crosgrove who is the principal of brim Bay College.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
For more from hither Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Digulous.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
So the Order to General has flags some questionable spending
by schools. In twenty twenty three, according to a new report,
auditors found that fifty four schools had spent money in
a way that personally benefited their principles. Some examples of
this sort pilates, classes, adventure, tourism, even overseas family travel.
So the antenna is the New Zealand Principles Federation prison
(00:25):
and she joins me, Now, hell are they am oh
cureda plartis and overseas trips don't sound like education spend,
do they?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Well? Lock you know, That's what the audit and process
is all about, really, is just to ask those questions
about why boards of trustees are, you know, are okaying
some of these payments. So obviously the auditing process is
there to ensure that there is checks made by someone
other than the principle and they make recommendations. This is
(00:54):
not you. This happens every.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Year, yes, But the question is are pilates and over
trip overseas trips okay or not?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Look, I'm not going to comment on the individual schools
or whether or not boards or have you know, should
have spent it on this or that is I have
no context to the reason behind I guess the spending
and I wasn't at the board table, and that's really important.
And it's not that I'm deflecting from your question. It's
just that the boards would have talked about why and
(01:24):
the reason for and had a long conversation about the spend.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Are boards of trustees any good at this?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah? Well, this is the thing. Our boards of trustees
are actually representatives of our community. So not all boards
will have someone on the air that has got unfinancial skills.
You know, some of the biggest schools might have representatives
for accountants, but no, many boards don't have you know,
members who have financial oversight. And so what really happens
(01:57):
is most schools will have a off site or an
off site accountant to double check and make sure that
the boards have all the information, flag any spending that
or flag any budgets that are going over so there
are checks and balances in there. Boards of trustees really
do need professional development in and around financial management tens.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Fortunately, Yeah, I understand, and I agree. And ten schools
that are reported to have made excessive gifts. Do schools
get carried away with gifts? Are they necessary?
Speaker 1 (02:30):
No, I don't think so. And once again, it would
be a discussion that's had at the board table of
which I haven't been part of, so I can't comment
on the reasons why that has been done. Certainly, they
will all have policies and around gifts, I mean there
are and gifts sort of cover a lot of things,
(02:51):
so you know, once again there's a conversation head and
they'll follow the policy that the school has put in place.
Those policies are often you know, they are in line
with the Ministry advice and guidance, and they also have
to meet those financial expectations by the auditors, so they
are double cheaped.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
No, Jenny from the Principal's Federation, I thank you very much. Meanwhile,
one of the schools that was named in the report
was bream Bay College. In twenty twenty three, Bream Bay
College spent ten thousand dollars on a farewell event for
the school's former principal, and five thousand of that went
on buying a jacket for all the staff to wear
them photos so they look good. Julian Cosgrove is the
(03:32):
current principal. He joins you, now, how are Julian?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Afternoon?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
The board approved the jackets. The audience, the general has
flagged it. How do you justify it?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Look, spending money on jackets is fairly common in schools.
They're important for staff, especially on duty. So the jackets
went just for that occasion. They were used and continue
to be used by staff on gt both to be
identifiable for students but also keeps them warm wintless north.
But we do so it's a nice.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
So these are like puffers. These aren't dress jackets. These
are like puffers or something.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
No, no, these are These are jackets that you would
expect to see staff that we are on duty in
a school.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I had to say this. So we talk in grammar
school with school back in the day, and nobody got
bought jackets anywhere.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
I've been at schools where that's been practiced in the past.
Sometimes they's subsidized and sometimes they've been given.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
So what do you say to the taxpayers, which includes you,
who are listening to this and they hear that the
staff are getting five thousand dollars worth of jackets so
that they look good.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, it wasn't just about looking good. I understand the consume,
but actually it's it's a fairly practical item for a
staff member who does duty outside. Obviously, we have a
fairly large site, so there's a lot of duty done outside,
and so do you I.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Still think it was a good decision when we were
in the middle of a cost of living crisis and
everybody's doing it hard.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
Look, I wasn't part of the group that made the decision,
so I wouldn't want a question with us the right
decision at the time.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Okay, Well, here's the thing. You might be leaving soon
or one day you know you won't bring Bay College
all the time.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Would you be happy?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Would you be happy enough as part of your farewell
event that people spend ten thousand dollars, including five thousand
dollars on jackets.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Look, from my view, it was a decision made at
the time, and it's not for me to comment on that.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
But I'm asking when you leave and you found out
that somebody organizer that do and it was going to
cost ten grand, would you say, well, I don't.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Think it's a fair question, but it's actually a lot
of that funding wasn't spent on an event. So for example,
money was used in there for Kappa hockey uniforms, which
weren't necessarily for the event either. So one of the
things we've done as a school, as we have looked
at where we do now work with an account and
to make sure the way we code things is a
bit easier to follow, because that seems to be I
(05:46):
think part of why we made some mistakes there or
wasn't as obvious it could as it could have been.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
One final question, just talking to LeAnn or Tena, she says,
some boards of trustees don't have any financial experience on them,
but others have accountants and all sorts of people at
brim Bay College, do you have a good board with
financial experience.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
I've got a very good board and there is financial
experience on my board.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yes, all right, I thank you very much for your
time and yeah, thanks man, it's a pleasure. And there
is Julian Crosgrove who is the principal of brim Bay College.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
For more from hither Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio.
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