Amy Ross: employment relations expert voices support for new bill protecting employees' rights to discuss their wages

An employment relations expert says many workers want to discuss how much they earn - and should be allowed to.

A Bill put forward by Labour would protect that right for employees.

It's supported by all parties, except for ACT and New Zealand First. 

Amy Ross says information about salaries belongs to the worker - and this bill would not force them to share it. 

"If I want to be able to discuss that and I want to be able to identify potential inequality in the workplace, then I should have the right to do so without risking getting fired or getting called into a disciplinary meeting. 

LISTEN ABOVE

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Would you like to tell your workmates about your salary
but your contract stops you from doing that. There's a
labor bill that's going through Parliament at the moment, currently
making its way through the House to protect employees' rights
to speak about their salary. Labor National, the Greens and
the Maori Party all voted for it at the first
reading Act in New Zealand. First, we're in Nate. Amy

(00:22):
Ross is an employment relations expert director of work Ethics.
She's with me now, Hi, Amy, Kyoda, Good to have
you on the show. Do you actually want Do you
think keewis actually want to tell their workmates how much
they're getting paid.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
I think a lot of people do, and I think
they should have the protected right to do so if
they wish. I mean, the information about what you earn
is effectively your information, so you should be able to
share it if you want to. You shouldn't be forced to,
and you can still under this alteration say oh no,
I'll keep that to myself. Thanks. But if I want

(00:58):
to be able to discuss that, and I want to
be able to identify potential inequality in the workplace, then
I should have the right to do so without risking
getting fired or getting called into a disciplinary meeting.

Speaker 1 (01:09):
But no one's forcing you to sign the contract, right,
There's no law that says no one can speak about
their contracts or their remuneration with one another. It's only
if you sign the contract that says you can't that
you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Yeah, but I think we have to remember the real world,
there's an imbalance of power between the employer and the employee.
In fact, that's one of the opening lines in the
Employment Relations Act. And the reason we have legal protections
is that the employer is often in a position where
they can say sort of take it or leave it,
and sometimes we have to take it. So I think
we have to be realistic in that we have legal

(01:43):
protections for a reason, and that is to smooth out
that imbalance of power and make sure that employees can
identify inequalities in the workplace in remedy those Do.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
You think they will though? I reckon that's the point.
I don't think it's the key we way to run
around and tell every on what you earn or how
much is in your bank account, or who you voted for.
I just don't think it's in our psyche.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
I think that often legislation encourages conversation and a change
in culture. And I think you're right, there is a
bit of a legacy of hangover of conservatism and being like, oh,
you know, salary is status and status and that is private,
and we've got to kind of keep all that under wraps.
But actually it's not serving us because we have a
persistent gender and ethnic pay yet. And unless we talk

(02:30):
about salary and able to identify what's causing those problems,
then we can't fix it. And legislative changes can encourage
that conversation and can actually change society. And some of
the legislative changes we see now seem totally normal now,
like homosexual law reform controversy at the time, completely normal now.

(02:51):
And you know, legislation can do that. It can shift
our cultural thinking.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
You're not surely you're not comparing this to homosexual law reform.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
I mean I'm saying that that's essentially what you're saying.
We're not ready for it, but legislation has to go
and change our thinking. Okay, yeah, give us our rights
and protections that we deserve it.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
But you have the protections now, there's no law that
says you are not allowed to discuss your remuneration. It's
only if you sign your rights away that you lose
that protection, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Yeah, so the Act is silent on it at the moment,
which gives employers the capacity to write those clauses in
to an agreement.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
I mean, it's hardly a Martin Luther King moment, is it.
I mean what we're talking about. No, But.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
Let's but you know, if you're going to make the
point about we're not ready for it, it's an example
about how legislation can also shift cultural thinking over time,
and how things which seem like transformative or radical we're
not ready for it, can actually be seen later down
the track as normal. And I think that is all
this is. It's another one of the pillars in the

(04:03):
platform we need to build to actually eradicate an equality
and pay which New Zealand is value fairness. You and
I would agree on that.

Speaker 1 (04:10):
All right, Okay we Amy, we have to leave it there,
but we'll see what the people think about this one.
I'm interested that you've put ford a good argument. I
appreciate you coming on the show. Amy Ross, who's an
employment relations expert and director of work ethics. For more
from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news talks
it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast

(04:31):
on iHeartRadio