Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now the government is looking to text charities more at
this year's budget, and we'll have Nichola Willis on the
show after six talk about that. But after more than
a decade of research and charity law, a Wakato law
professor has changed her mind on this very important issue.
Associate Professor Juliet Chevellier Watts is with me this afternoon.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Good afternoon, Hello Ryan, Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Good to have you on. Now you changed your mind.
You used to say text them and now you say
don't text them. What's changed?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Yeah, so many years of research and suddenly discovering actually
how much religious charities and churches are worth economically to
our society, to New Zealand. It was it blew my
mind way to be honest, and quite often the reason
we don't know about all of this amazing work that
(00:54):
they carry out is because they hidelir lights under a bushel. Unfortunately,
they don't give themselves any many faiths doing that, and
all of their good much of their good work, is
hidden away. So my research has shown has brought to
light so much of this amazing work and the economic
relevance of it to New Zealand. So from a tax
(01:14):
payer perspective.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, so I want to ask you about this because
you have said that that contributed an enormous six point
one billion dollars to our economy in a single year.
What you've said it rightly, So it's bigger than some industries.
How you calculated that? Like, how are they actually doing that?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Right? So this takes into consideration, It only takes into
a consideration a small amount of what they do, but
this is basically their total value of services. So but
what that doesn't do is it doesn't include indirect impacts
such as the stuff they have to do with tax compliance,
the charity law compliance, improved health, et cetera, that you
(01:54):
get from being a religious entity. So yeah, we've really
only just scraped the surface on this research, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
So how I mean, how are they six billions a
lot of money?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
How is that?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And help? What is that?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
So this is my work that I carry out with
a research colleague by the name of Professor Frank Scrimjaw
who's at the Wheata Management School. So he specializes an
accountancy and tax and he has gone through so we've
taken data from the charity services website. So all charities
(02:33):
provide data, as it were, to the publicly available in
charity services register being registered as a charity, and we
can and anybody can obtain that data, but it takes
a lot of time and energy to go through it.
So it will include things like how many volunteers they have,
what income they've got, what outgoings they've got, all of
(02:54):
those sorts of things that they're expenses. So we have
looked at all of that data from twenty eighteen, and
we've still got to do post COVID work yet, or.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I guess for people to understand. So are you saying
that they are doing six billion dollars worth of good?
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Is that? Yes, that's pretty much what it boils down to. Yeah,
six point one billion New Zealand dollars of good for
the community. That was just in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Right, interesting, And so therefore we shouldn't text them because
they're doing more good, far more good than ham So
let's help them rather than hinder them.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Well, to be honest, you've hit the nail on the
head there, to be honest, Ryan, because I think what
people are not really aware of is what it actually
takes to be a charity. So it's not just a
handout that churches or religious entities or any charity gets
for tax exemptions. This is to recognize the amazing good
(03:52):
works that they do and to recognize all the billions
of dollars that they contribute to suity that the government
then doesn't have to fork out for saving tax money.
So yes, my views are is that actually the prospect
of income tax or additional taxes on charities is a
(04:12):
really horrifying thing because we don't yet know exactly how much,
in addition to what we've really uncovered, how much an
addition they are worth to society. So say additional taxes
were imposed on them, well, they would then have to
remove so much of their money to pay tax and
instead of focusing on the good work that they do.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Okay, interesting take. Dr Juliet Chevellia Watts. We appreciate you
coming on the program today. Thank you very much for that.
Associate professor, our law expert at Wakata University says she's
looked into it and reckons they shouldn't be paying tax.
What do you reckon? Nine to two nine two, it's
quarter past four. I mean six billion dollars is a
lot of money. I think our mining sector at the
(04:53):
moment makes less than two billion dollars a year. So
if that is true that they do six billion dollars worth,
I mean, there's no doubt it is. It is slightly
disconcerting when we have a debate about charities and tax
in New Zealand right in the midst of the Destiny
Church thing, because everybody gets so wound up about one
particular group when you've got to look at it as
(05:15):
a you know, as a wider issue. Surely. For more
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