Peter Lineham: religious historian explains what's known about the Two By Twos

Questions are being raised about whether a politician's religious beliefs are of public interest.

Christchurch-based National MP Hamish Campbell has admitted to TVNZ  a connection to a religious group embroiled in alleged child abuse allegations.

The group, dubbed the Two By Twos, has no official name or buildings, is not registered as a charity, and its members meet in homes. 

Religious historian Peter Lineham says he believes some claims are against preachers.

"The only aspect that is concerning for people in the group is this - that because it's so secretive, the Two By Two preachers are held in such respect that an abused person's story would probably not be believed."

LISTEN ABOVE

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So Benjamin Doyle has been at Parliament explaining themselves over
the bussy question. The Instagram post you will know all
about this. Here's what they had to say.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
The words I used in my private account historically were
not sexual words. They were nicknames and references to myself.
I recognize that a lot of people won't know the
word bussy and so they'll be hearing about it for
the first time now, and that some people don't use
or like it or have a particular definition. Every time
I have ever used that term, it has been a

(00:32):
reference to me and my nicknames. It's a nickname or
like a drag persona, it's a caricature of myself.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
So that's the reasoning the rationale. Take from that what
you will, and I'm assuming both sides of this will
take from that what they will. Ten minutes after four
now we're going to a story with a headline that
probably doesn't get much worse. I don't think this is
a one news story from last night. National Mpmush Campbell
is part of a secretive religious group that's being investigated

(01:04):
for alleged child abuse here and abroad. The group has
no official name, but has been called the Two by
Twos and the Truth. Hamish told one News in this
story that he's got no knowledge of any abuse.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
Look, I think kind of for any any accusations I've had,
I think the best place for that is the police.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Peter Linen was in the story. He's massive university religious
expert with us this afternoon.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Hi, Peter, how are you going round?

Speaker 1 (01:29):
You good? Thank you? How did you you obviously saw
that piece last night. How did you think? Because to
put someone's name in there, and you know, in the
headline with child abuse, it's pretty pretty serious stuff. I mean,
are you confident that there's enough information around this to
be doing that.

Speaker 3 (01:47):
I think there's probably a misunderstanding in the way that
the one story seemed to stack up. Yes, Hamish Campbell
is a member. It would appear of the two X
twos or whatever we will call them. Every book I've
got on the subject, I've got seven books named them
with a different name. So it's a bit hard to

(02:08):
be sure. But you see, the abuse is by specific people,
which is alleged against them. In the church, they had
these two They had these missionaries who go out in
pairs and they're usually almost always single males, one older
and one younger, and there have been allegations that some

(02:33):
of the missionaries have been involved in abuse. And the
only aspect that is concerning for people in the group
is this that because it's so secretive, it's sort of
created and because the two by two preachers, the go
preachers are held in such respect that probably an abused

(02:57):
person's story would not be believed. And I think that's
what's been happening. That's certainly true of the FBI stories.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Right, So it's not I mean, to your knowledge, there's
nothing you would just ask questions about this particular group
rather than about this national MP themselves. So you're talking
about the group itself. Do we know? So are they
definitely being investigated by a police? Are they here in
New Zealand?

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Specific there have been specific complaints against specific people. Some
of them are historic. I believe at least one of
them is dead. So it's going back. The group's been
around in New Zealand, remember, for more than one hundred years,
and people have because it's now become an atmosphere after

(03:44):
the Royal Commission where you can talk about sex abuse
for the first time, they come forward with their stories
and that's been just what has made the police very interested.
There are other issues, of course with the group. I
mean I've met various survivors of the group. Some come

(04:05):
out pretty well, some came out spectacularly well. There was
some very well known names involved with the group at times,
but some have struggled with suicide, with other traumas in
their life and have just had their lives ended up
a wreck. It's very hard to escape from a closed

(04:27):
group like this.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Interesting, Peter, I appreciate your time. Thanks very much for
coming on the program. Peter Lineham, Who's Massy University Religious Experts.
For more from Hither duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio