Thomas Coughlan: NZ Herald political editor on Chris Luxon and Winston Peters' clash over US tariffs
April 14, 2025 • 5 mins
The Prime Minister's dismissing suggestions of tension with his deputy over US tariffs and trade.
Winston Peters last week said Chris Luxon was premature in calling other leaders - and yesterday labelled some language used around trade 'hysterical'.
But Luxon says all the Ministers responsible, which includes Peters, are aligned on the fact a trade war would be bad for New Zealand.
NZ Herald political editor Thomas Coughlan says the trade issue has generated a bipartisan response, but it's unwise to draw too much attention to it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thomas Coglin, the Herald's political editors, with us.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Thomas, Hello, hello here that welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Yeah, thank you very much. Congrats on the job. How
it's day one for you, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Day one? Day one? Yeah, it's been great so far.
I've really enjoyed it. Were a bit nervous, but I'm
doing my best.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Oh good, now, you'll be fantastic out it, Thomas, don't
worry about a thing. Now, tell me what you make
of this lux and versus Winston thing in the trade
war comments. Is it as the Prime Minister says a
media beat up?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I have to say I don't think it is. I
think it's probably inappropriate Winston Peter's over the weekend making
these remarks that calling the words that the Prime Minister
has been using hysterical and short sighted, those weren't directly
at what the Prime Minister had been saying. They were
at people who were using similar words to what the
Prime Minister had been using. So reading to that, what
(00:44):
you will? I think? And you heard David Seymour say
it on the Country earlier today that the Prime Minister
is basically the de facto foreign minister and in public
at least, he should probably have his way when it
comes to deciding which direction the country goes at and
goes in and the foreign affairs kind of kind of world.
That said, I do, I do really think that that
(01:06):
Winston has a point when it comes to the lack
of consultation. This is a big pivot, like the Prime
Minister's decision to hit the phones to basically build this
anti unofficially anti Trump coalition of free traders. That is
a big decision for New Zealand to go out on
a limb and be one of the countries that is
most notably in support of free trade and against what
(01:28):
the Americans are doing. And it probably would have been
wise if he had circulated that amongkst not just New
Zealand first, but that too the coalition.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
But Thomas, this is not going to be a surprise
to anybody that this is New Zealand's position on trade. Right, Well,
we are one of the leading lights in free trade.
So what is Winston worried about?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yes, you're absolutely right. It would look quite ridiculous if
New Zealand came out and said where in supportive tariffs?
And cones knows what I actually thought that the Prime
Minister's speech on Thursday was one of his best, where
he said, you know, in the nineteen seventies, we tried
to put up tariffs and shut the world out and
pretend that nothing was happening, and it was an absolute disaster.
And that's certainly a very accurate description of what happened there.
(02:06):
So yeah, there's no surprise that New Zealand do is
a free trading country. We're probably one of the most
free trading countries in the world. So there is obviously
our position. I think we're Winston's coming from and Winston
Peters I should be more respectful and my new job,
the Foreign Minister, I think where he's coming from. Is
is it wise to be sticking our head above the
parapet you know? Yeah, yeah, And you know those remarks
(02:29):
that that were made in the Rose Garden where Donald
Trump's sort of like, well, look, these are your tariffs,
but if you retaliate and if you a couple of stink,
well we can go further and farther. And you think, right, well,
I think we'll just take our ten percent and just
quietly go about our business. And that's probably more where
Winston Peters is coming and it's a fair.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Point to say that the Prime Minister is the de
facto foreign minister and therefore should get his way, right,
But if you are looking at the two of them,
you'd be dumb not to take the advice of Winston Peters,
who is our most experienced foreign minister, right.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, And I think you know, Winston Peters has got
a really good read on on how the Trump administration
thinks and operates. I mean, and that's pretty difficult because
the way it thinks and operates changes from out were
and and certainly you know you've seen well you saw
a few weeks ago, right with with Ted Cruz getting
grumpy about that that that story in the Israeli newspapers
(03:19):
about Israeli citizens needing a certain paperwork to come to
New Zealand. That was you know, wrong in the end,
but he got very grumpy and it turned into a
massive pilava over in the States. You really want to
not be on the Americans radar at the moment. They
are they are but trigger happy at the moment. And
I think you know that's that's certainly where Winston Peters
is coming from. Regardless of the point I think the
(03:39):
primes the point that Prime Minister is making most people
agree with, even labors sort of and and people on
the left. There's a really bipartisan view that that we
are a free trading nation and what the Americans are
doing right now is bad for us. But but whether
or not you need to be drawing attention to it
right now, that is certainly something on which the Prime
Minister and the Foreign miners that don't appear to be
on the same page.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Fair enough, Listen, I looked at this tourism funding announcement.
I thought, for nearly fourteen million bucks to bring about
twenty four thousand people here assumes like a hell of
a lot of money. It was a five hundred bucks
per person, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah. I haven't actually done done the math on that myself,
but yes, certainly it's it's I mean, it's the tourism
numbers are down, but on on COVID levels it's unclear
to me, and I'm not sure the Prime Minister made
a strong case today as to whether it's the advertising
and the marketing that is responsible for them not coming
here when you look at the numbers. I think the
biggest issue is that China is currently having a bit
(04:31):
of an economic meltdown, which is probably another reason why
you'd want to be be careful with the Americans because
when you look at our trade stead it's the Americans
who are really driving the growth at the moment. China
is not really the golden goose it used to be.
So really, if we're looking to what's wrong with tourism,
it's looking at that China number, which I think is
sitting at about fifty percent nearly of pre COVID levels,
(04:51):
and thinking how do we get that back to normal?
Because again, when you look at the American tourism numbers,
European tourism numbers, Australian tourism numbers, they're all looking much
better than they used to be. So I'm not really
sure it's a marketing thing that's possibly some visa issues
there and then global economic Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I mean, okay, you're right, Thomas. If you if you're
talking about a piddley amount like fourteen million dollars, then
what you're really doing is you just trying to look
like you're doing something, because that kind of money is
not going to shift the market, is it? I?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
No? I In short, I would I I tourism is
not my my, my area of expertise. But it would
be one would think would be quite incredible if you'd
spend fourteen million dollars in all of a sudden. I'm
happy to be proven wrong, happy to be proven wrong,
but at first blush, that seems that would seem unlikely.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Thomas, listen again, congrats all the job. Really looking forward
to seeing how you go. I know you'll be amazing.
That's Thomas Coglan, the Herald's new political editor. For more
from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
Thomas Coglin, the Herald's political editors, with us.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Thomas, Hello, hello here that welcome back.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Yeah, thank you very much. Congrats on the job. How
it's day one for you, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Day one? Day one? Yeah, it's been great so far.
I've really enjoyed it. Were a bit nervous, but I'm
doing my best.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Oh good, now, you'll be fantastic out it, Thomas, don't
worry about a thing. Now, tell me what you make
of this lux and versus Winston thing in the trade
war comments. Is it as the Prime Minister says a
media beat up?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
I have to say I don't think it is. I
think it's probably inappropriate Winston Peter's over the weekend making
these remarks that calling the words that the Prime Minister
has been using hysterical and short sighted, those weren't directly
at what the Prime Minister had been saying. They were
at people who were using similar words to what the
Prime Minister had been using. So reading to that, what
(00:44):
you will? I think? And you heard David Seymour say
it on the Country earlier today that the Prime Minister
is basically the de facto foreign minister and in public
at least, he should probably have his way when it
comes to deciding which direction the country goes at and
goes in and the foreign affairs kind of kind of world.
That said, I do, I do really think that that
(01:06):
Winston has a point when it comes to the lack
of consultation. This is a big pivot, like the Prime
Minister's decision to hit the phones to basically build this
anti unofficially anti Trump coalition of free traders. That is
a big decision for New Zealand to go out on
a limb and be one of the countries that is
most notably in support of free trade and against what
(01:28):
the Americans are doing. And it probably would have been
wise if he had circulated that amongkst not just New
Zealand first, but that too the coalition.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
But Thomas, this is not going to be a surprise
to anybody that this is New Zealand's position on trade. Right, Well,
we are one of the leading lights in free trade.
So what is Winston worried about?
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yes, you're absolutely right. It would look quite ridiculous if
New Zealand came out and said where in supportive tariffs?
And cones knows what I actually thought that the Prime
Minister's speech on Thursday was one of his best, where
he said, you know, in the nineteen seventies, we tried
to put up tariffs and shut the world out and
pretend that nothing was happening, and it was an absolute disaster.
And that's certainly a very accurate description of what happened there.
(02:06):
So yeah, there's no surprise that New Zealand do is
a free trading country. We're probably one of the most
free trading countries in the world. So there is obviously
our position. I think we're Winston's coming from and Winston
Peters I should be more respectful and my new job,
the Foreign Minister, I think where he's coming from. Is
is it wise to be sticking our head above the
parapet you know? Yeah, yeah, And you know those remarks
(02:29):
that that were made in the Rose Garden where Donald
Trump's sort of like, well, look, these are your tariffs,
but if you retaliate and if you a couple of stink,
well we can go further and farther. And you think, right, well,
I think we'll just take our ten percent and just
quietly go about our business. And that's probably more where
Winston Peters is coming and it's a fair.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Point to say that the Prime Minister is the de
facto foreign minister and therefore should get his way, right,
But if you are looking at the two of them,
you'd be dumb not to take the advice of Winston Peters,
who is our most experienced foreign minister, right.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
Yeah, And I think you know, Winston Peters has got
a really good read on on how the Trump administration
thinks and operates. I mean, and that's pretty difficult because
the way it thinks and operates changes from out were
and and certainly you know you've seen well you saw
a few weeks ago, right with with Ted Cruz getting
grumpy about that that that story in the Israeli newspapers
(03:19):
about Israeli citizens needing a certain paperwork to come to
New Zealand. That was you know, wrong in the end,
but he got very grumpy and it turned into a
massive pilava over in the States. You really want to
not be on the Americans radar at the moment. They
are they are but trigger happy at the moment. And
I think you know that's that's certainly where Winston Peters
is coming from. Regardless of the point I think the
(03:39):
primes the point that Prime Minister is making most people
agree with, even labors sort of and and people on
the left. There's a really bipartisan view that that we
are a free trading nation and what the Americans are
doing right now is bad for us. But but whether
or not you need to be drawing attention to it
right now, that is certainly something on which the Prime
Minister and the Foreign miners that don't appear to be
on the same page.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Fair enough, Listen, I looked at this tourism funding announcement.
I thought, for nearly fourteen million bucks to bring about
twenty four thousand people here assumes like a hell of
a lot of money. It was a five hundred bucks
per person, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah. I haven't actually done done the math on that myself,
but yes, certainly it's it's I mean, it's the tourism
numbers are down, but on on COVID levels it's unclear
to me, and I'm not sure the Prime Minister made
a strong case today as to whether it's the advertising
and the marketing that is responsible for them not coming
here when you look at the numbers. I think the
biggest issue is that China is currently having a bit
(04:31):
of an economic meltdown, which is probably another reason why
you'd want to be be careful with the Americans because
when you look at our trade stead it's the Americans
who are really driving the growth at the moment. China
is not really the golden goose it used to be.
So really, if we're looking to what's wrong with tourism,
it's looking at that China number, which I think is
sitting at about fifty percent nearly of pre COVID levels,
(04:51):
and thinking how do we get that back to normal?
Because again, when you look at the American tourism numbers,
European tourism numbers, Australian tourism numbers, they're all looking much
better than they used to be. So I'm not really
sure it's a marketing thing that's possibly some visa issues
there and then global economic Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
I mean, okay, you're right, Thomas. If you if you're
talking about a piddley amount like fourteen million dollars, then
what you're really doing is you just trying to look
like you're doing something, because that kind of money is
not going to shift the market, is it? I?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
No? I In short, I would I I tourism is
not my my, my area of expertise. But it would
be one would think would be quite incredible if you'd
spend fourteen million dollars in all of a sudden. I'm
happy to be proven wrong, happy to be proven wrong,
but at first blush, that seems that would seem unlikely.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Thomas, listen again, congrats all the job. Really looking forward
to seeing how you go. I know you'll be amazing.
That's Thomas Coglan, the Herald's new political editor. For more
from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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