Air New Zealand wants to tap into more sustainable aviation fuel - to meet net zero emissions by 2050.
It's aiming to cut well-to-wake jet fuel greenhouse gas emissions by 20-to-25-percent in five years, compared to pre-Covid.
Air New Zealand's Kiri Hannifin says this is the main way airlines can de-carbonise.
She says sustainable fuel is costly, but there's ongoing work looking at keeping airfare prices fair - especially for domestic travel.
"Why it's so expensive at the moment is because there's hardly any available, so the more demand there is, the more supply there'll be available - and that will help get the prices down."
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now Air New Zealand has done away with climate targets,
but has instead replaced it with its first emissions guidance. Now,
the airline wants to reduce net green house gas emissions
from jet fuel by twenty to twenty five percent. And
you'll remember last year Airline abandoned its carbon targets at
the time, blaming it on a shortage of new aircraft
availability and also the high price of sustainable jet fuels.
Kitty Hannafan is Air New Zealand's chief sustainability and corporate
(00:23):
affairs officer and with us now, Hey Candy, hello, how
are you well? Thank you? What's the difference between targets
and guidance?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So a target is a static goal, and what we're
doing is because we couldn't achieve the target we set
and had to put out of it last year, we
wanted to have something back in the market that we
could be very.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Transparent and honest about how we were going.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So what we're doing is saying what we expect to
do by twenty thirty, but we'll update everybody every year
to sort of give a realistic appraisal of how we're tracking.
You know, given what's happening in the world or you know,
in the markets, or HARSAF scaling up.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
So it's just a different, more transparent approach.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Okay, And so how do you expect to do it?
I mean, how much are you going to have to
rely on sustainable fuel, which, as you guys have said,
is so expensive a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's the main way that airlines will decarbonize, I think,
and it's probably quite timely from some of the discussions
that have been heaven that are having been head at
the moment around the world. We're going to have a
bit you know, we're going to have some residual emissions
left and we'll have to.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Use carbon removals as well.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
We know that, but by by far the greatest lever
that we have is the use of sustainable aviation fuel.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Is it going to push up the price of the
air tickets?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
It's a really good question at the moment.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's not because we're using such a small quantity, but
it is expensive and we've got a really significant piece
of work underway now to work out how we can
bring the cost down. And there's a few ways we
can do that. We can sort of enter long term
off take agreements, which are much more affordable. We can
buy it from markets that are subsidized like the US,
and we can and we can obviously help with supply.
(02:04):
So why it's so expensive at the moment is because
there's hardly any available. So the more demand there is,
the more supply they will be available and that will
help get the price down.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So how much do you think, like, what does it
add to the price of a ticket.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
At the moment? Nothing?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And in the long term once you're actually buying it
and really.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Fine, we don't know, like, you know, rough of the
you know, we see the back of the envelope, you know,
maybe a few dollars for you know, for a ticket domestically,
but that's not how we do it. Would probably look
to sort of to make it fair. So obviously international
travels much more emission heavy than domestic travel. We want
to look after the price of traveling in New Zealand.
(02:42):
We're going to try and sell a lot of the
scope three parts of the SAF to third parties to
businesses who want to reduce their own emissions. So big
organizations like Microsoft and Apple are buying parts of Airline
Safe to reduce their own emissions. So that's what we
want to do to see if we can commercialize it
to take the burden off our own flyers.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Now I want your take on something. I have been
watching what's going on with the Paris Agreement right and
I just want to Chloe Swarbrick about it about just
over half an hour ago, and she could tell me
that she believed the Paris Agreement will hold. Do you
think it will hold?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Oh gosh, that's such a good question. Look, it's not
a question I can't really answer. It's an agreement that
government's entered and I guess centered on the back of
what they thought was, you know, excellent advice from hundreds
of scientists. You know, I guess it's the world's global
climate framework, and that's really important.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
There was near.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Agreement to join it from governments, and there's actually some
really good progress being made with technology. And ironically, I
guess you're referring to what Tony Blairsbean saying the UK
have been doing probably one of the best out of
all the countries in the world. I think it's really
important that governments and businesses like ours commit to decarbonizing,
and our own twenty to fifty goal is not part
(04:03):
of the Paris Agreement obviously because we're not a government,
but we do have our own twenty to fifty net
net zero emissions go and we know we're very determined
and committed to getting there.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So tell me what I mean, because you must have
thought about this, or because I know you care about
this deepening a lot. What happens, kitty? What happens the
US pulls out, right, they've already done it, And then
what happens if the UK abandons it? And bit by
bit all these larger countries start to fall out of
the Paris Agreement or realize it's completely it's overly ambitious,
they can't meet the targets. Smaller countries like ours realize
(04:34):
we are also then going to be left doing way
more than our fair share, so we abandon it. Where
does it leave? Are you still there?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah? I'm here?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Oh sorry, we just had a little beep there and
I thought she's bailed out before answering this hard question?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
But where does it gofit? Through?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Hard?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Where does it leave an airline? Right, if all these
countries have bailed out, where doesn't he leave an airline
sitting there pushing up its own prices, trying to do
the right thing, but abandoned by all the countries.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
It's a really good question, and I guess, you know,
the most positive thing I can say is that a
New Zealand is not alone in our ambition, Like we
are part of every global airline wanting.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
To do this work. So this is a global action
from aviation.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It's not just a New Zealand out on a limb,
but generally, like pulling away from climate action a country
by country would be a death by a thousand.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Cuts, and.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
That would be regrettable for everybody, not just aviation but
for all industry. And I guess it will come down
to decisions between the cost of action versus the cost
of inaction, because what I can tell you is that
doing nothing and having to navigate adaptation or response to
climate damage will be incredibly costly as well. So I think,
(05:45):
you know, and we are trying to be more realistic.
You know, we couldn't do what we committed to last year,
and so this is us trying to be much more
honest and pragmatic and realistic about what we can do.
But it's still ambitious, and it's still going to stretch us,
and we're going to do everything we can to push
ourselves harder.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
But because I think yes, of course.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, I think you guys are are part of the
problem in the sense like from your perspective, right, So
you are just doing as a corporate what all these
countries are going to do, look at the ambition, realize
it's impossible, and pull back, and therefore the climate just
keeps getting hotter.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Well, we're still we are going to our emissions by
twenty thirty, so we are taking absolute or gross emissions
out of our business, and that's what.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
We have to do.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
We are take you know, we are using less stiel,
We're going to be burning less carbon and we're you know,
we are tracking the right way, and that's what we
all have to do. So it's possible we couldn't. We couldn't,
you know, because of things are outside of our control.
And don't mean to make excuses like around fleet or
SAFF We couldn't get to the level that we thought
we might be able to.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
But we're still We're still going.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Really hard, and we're still going to make a difference,
and you know, it all counts.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Every you know, every.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Dicimal point of carbon savings makes a difference, and I
think that's worth fighting for.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Hey, Kitty, thank you. I really appreciate having chat to
you about its. Kitty Hanafan, Chief Sustainability and corporate affairs
officer at in New Zealand. Heather, the Ponzi scheme of
carbon is over, do you know what. The more that
I watch what's happening right now, the more I talk
to people like Kitty Hanaffan, Chloe Swarbrick, people who actually
deeply committed to trying to save the planet, the more
convinced I am this thing is over. The Paris Agreement
(07:19):
is going to fall over. And the closer we get
to twenty thirty, that's our first target we have to meet.
The closer we get to that, we will start to
realize at that point. The closer we get, the more
we will realize that we cannot meet these targets and
we're going to fall away from them. I'm happy to
make that prediction now, and I'm sure that there will
just be mounting evidence as we get closer to it.
For more from Heather Duplessy, Allen Drive, listen live to
(07:41):
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
Now Air New Zealand has done away with climate targets,
but has instead replaced it with its first emissions guidance. Now,
the airline wants to reduce net green house gas emissions
from jet fuel by twenty to twenty five percent. And
you'll remember last year Airline abandoned its carbon targets at
the time, blaming it on a shortage of new aircraft
availability and also the high price of sustainable jet fuels.
Kitty Hannafan is Air New Zealand's chief sustainability and corporate
(00:23):
affairs officer and with us now, Hey Candy, hello, how
are you well? Thank you? What's the difference between targets
and guidance?
Speaker 2 (00:30):
So a target is a static goal, and what we're
doing is because we couldn't achieve the target we set
and had to put out of it last year, we
wanted to have something back in the market that we
could be very.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Transparent and honest about how we were going.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
So what we're doing is saying what we expect to
do by twenty thirty, but we'll update everybody every year
to sort of give a realistic appraisal of how we're tracking.
You know, given what's happening in the world or you know,
in the markets, or HARSAF scaling up.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
So it's just a different, more transparent approach.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Okay, And so how do you expect to do it?
I mean, how much are you going to have to
rely on sustainable fuel, which, as you guys have said,
is so expensive a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's the main way that airlines will decarbonize, I think,
and it's probably quite timely from some of the discussions
that have been heaven that are having been head at
the moment around the world. We're going to have a
bit you know, we're going to have some residual emissions
left and we'll have to.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Use carbon removals as well.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
We know that, but by by far the greatest lever
that we have is the use of sustainable aviation fuel.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Is it going to push up the price of the
air tickets?
Speaker 3 (01:38):
It's a really good question at the moment.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
It's not because we're using such a small quantity, but
it is expensive and we've got a really significant piece
of work underway now to work out how we can
bring the cost down. And there's a few ways we
can do that. We can sort of enter long term
off take agreements, which are much more affordable. We can
buy it from markets that are subsidized like the US,
and we can and we can obviously help with supply.
(02:04):
So why it's so expensive at the moment is because
there's hardly any available. So the more demand there is,
the more supply they will be available and that will
help get the price down.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
So how much do you think, like, what does it
add to the price of a ticket.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
At the moment? Nothing?
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And in the long term once you're actually buying it
and really.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Fine, we don't know, like, you know, rough of the
you know, we see the back of the envelope, you know,
maybe a few dollars for you know, for a ticket domestically,
but that's not how we do it. Would probably look
to sort of to make it fair. So obviously international
travels much more emission heavy than domestic travel. We want
to look after the price of traveling in New Zealand.
(02:42):
We're going to try and sell a lot of the
scope three parts of the SAF to third parties to
businesses who want to reduce their own emissions. So big
organizations like Microsoft and Apple are buying parts of Airline
Safe to reduce their own emissions. So that's what we
want to do to see if we can commercialize it
to take the burden off our own flyers.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Now I want your take on something. I have been
watching what's going on with the Paris Agreement right and
I just want to Chloe Swarbrick about it about just
over half an hour ago, and she could tell me
that she believed the Paris Agreement will hold. Do you
think it will hold?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Oh gosh, that's such a good question. Look, it's not
a question I can't really answer. It's an agreement that
government's entered and I guess centered on the back of
what they thought was, you know, excellent advice from hundreds
of scientists. You know, I guess it's the world's global
climate framework, and that's really important.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
There was near.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Agreement to join it from governments, and there's actually some
really good progress being made with technology. And ironically, I
guess you're referring to what Tony Blairsbean saying the UK
have been doing probably one of the best out of
all the countries in the world. I think it's really
important that governments and businesses like ours commit to decarbonizing,
and our own twenty to fifty goal is not part
(04:03):
of the Paris Agreement obviously because we're not a government,
but we do have our own twenty to fifty net
net zero emissions go and we know we're very determined
and committed to getting there.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So tell me what I mean, because you must have
thought about this, or because I know you care about
this deepening a lot. What happens, kitty? What happens the
US pulls out, right, they've already done it, And then
what happens if the UK abandons it? And bit by
bit all these larger countries start to fall out of
the Paris Agreement or realize it's completely it's overly ambitious,
they can't meet the targets. Smaller countries like ours realize
(04:34):
we are also then going to be left doing way
more than our fair share, so we abandon it. Where
does it leave? Are you still there?
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah? I'm here?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Oh sorry, we just had a little beep there and
I thought she's bailed out before answering this hard question?
Speaker 3 (04:48):
But where does it gofit? Through?
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Hard?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Where does it leave an airline? Right, if all these
countries have bailed out, where doesn't he leave an airline
sitting there pushing up its own prices, trying to do
the right thing, but abandoned by all the countries.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
It's a really good question, and I guess, you know,
the most positive thing I can say is that a
New Zealand is not alone in our ambition, Like we
are part of every global airline wanting.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
To do this work. So this is a global action
from aviation.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
It's not just a New Zealand out on a limb,
but generally, like pulling away from climate action a country
by country would be a death by a thousand.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Cuts, and.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
That would be regrettable for everybody, not just aviation but
for all industry. And I guess it will come down
to decisions between the cost of action versus the cost
of inaction, because what I can tell you is that
doing nothing and having to navigate adaptation or response to
climate damage will be incredibly costly as well. So I think,
(05:45):
you know, and we are trying to be more realistic.
You know, we couldn't do what we committed to last year,
and so this is us trying to be much more
honest and pragmatic and realistic about what we can do.
But it's still ambitious, and it's still going to stretch us,
and we're going to do everything we can to push
ourselves harder.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
But because I think yes, of course.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Yeah, I think you guys are are part of the
problem in the sense like from your perspective, right, So
you are just doing as a corporate what all these
countries are going to do, look at the ambition, realize
it's impossible, and pull back, and therefore the climate just
keeps getting hotter.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Well, we're still we are going to our emissions by
twenty thirty, so we are taking absolute or gross emissions
out of our business, and that's what.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
We have to do.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
We are take you know, we are using less stiel,
We're going to be burning less carbon and we're you know,
we are tracking the right way, and that's what we
all have to do. So it's possible we couldn't. We couldn't,
you know, because of things are outside of our control.
And don't mean to make excuses like around fleet or
SAFF We couldn't get to the level that we thought
we might be able to.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
But we're still We're still going.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Really hard, and we're still going to make a difference,
and you know, it all counts.
Speaker 3 (06:51):
Every you know, every.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Dicimal point of carbon savings makes a difference, and I
think that's worth fighting for.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Hey, Kitty, thank you. I really appreciate having chat to
you about its. Kitty Hanafan, Chief Sustainability and corporate affairs
officer at in New Zealand. Heather, the Ponzi scheme of
carbon is over, do you know what. The more that
I watch what's happening right now, the more I talk
to people like Kitty Hanaffan, Chloe Swarbrick, people who actually
deeply committed to trying to save the planet, the more
convinced I am this thing is over. The Paris Agreement
(07:19):
is going to fall over. And the closer we get
to twenty thirty, that's our first target we have to meet.
The closer we get to that, we will start to
realize at that point. The closer we get, the more
we will realize that we cannot meet these targets and
we're going to fall away from them. I'm happy to
make that prediction now, and I'm sure that there will
just be mounting evidence as we get closer to it.
For more from Heather Duplessy, Allen Drive, listen live to
(07:41):
news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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