May 6, 2025 • 10 mins
Tonight on The Huddle, Auckland Councillor Maurice Williamson and Ali Jones from Red PR joined in on a discussion about the following issues of the day - and more!
The Government is overhauling the pay equity system - restricting future claims and stopping all 33 current claims. The changes will be rushed through under urgency this week. Do we think this is the right move?
National has outlined plans to ban social media for under-16s - do we think this is a good idea?
More Government ministers have admitted to using Gmail for Government tasks - is this a bad look?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty find you
are one of a kind on the huddle this evening'
got Morris Williamson Auckland Council obviously former National Party minister
and Ali Jones read pr and christ Church Local board member.
Holl are you too good?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Ay, Good evening, Heather, and good evening Ali Hirius.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Morris, what did you make of the pay equity announcement.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I think it's a sensible move because they're not getting
rid of pay equity. Pay equity will be here to stay.
But it's how you do the comparators. And I've had
a number of companies and employers raise it with me
along the way, saying that the ludicrous comparator of some
staff they've got with another occupation I think I I mean,
I've heard the Minister in the House today saying that
(00:42):
Health New Zealand and the clerical staff were being compared
to mechanical engineers Health New Zealand librarians to transport engineers.
And the one I loved was Oranger Tamariki social workers
to air traffic controllers. There's just lunatic lunacy. It's dear lunacy.
So the idea of pay equity is good, but make
sure you get the comparators sorted.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
What do you think about it, Ali, Well, there's no
doubt in my mind that the coalition's using this to
fund the budget. Absolutely nothing they have said today Luxeon
or van Walden has made sense. So I heard chryst
Re Luxen say we're making sure we have a process
that is more robust, workable and sustainable than what I mean.
I have been involved with the College of Midwives pay
(01:23):
equity case. I'm not any longer. The hopes they had
to jump through the independent very expensive reports that they
had to pay for to get robust and accepted comparators.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And this is also for Meris.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
The midwives union was huge. Morris, I think you're being
incredibly disingenuous when you start talking about, you know, comparing
librarians with engineers and so forth. Once it gets to
a negotiation into a court case, as it has with
the midwives, you just don't get that stuff accepted without
robust independent reports. So I think they're actually changing something
(01:59):
that doesn't need changeing.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Who were the midwives comparing themselves to. By the way, Alie, that's.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
A good question, and that's one but I haven't managed
to look at and pull up today. But the PwC report,
I think it was PwC that did it. They looked
at the number of years that someone studies for what
their experiences and what their life protection responsibilities are in
the work that they do. So there are a whole
lot of different things that it might have been, for example,
(02:28):
a police detective. I'm not sure, don't quote me on that,
but it is done in a very scientific, very very
independent and robust waste. So I was curious to hear
Brook van Velden say that rubbish to.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So Alie, Well, those comparators I gave you here that
are actually in claims, because I've seen the copies of them,
and I thought the best one i've seen, I haven't
even yes that one use this one. Corrections officers have
been used as a compartor for nurses claims, for admin's
support staff claims, and for teacher aides. Now, I don't
think they've got anything to do with each other, whether
one's better or not, or bigger or less, but I
(03:03):
just think to use them as a comparator for the
work you do is just wrong.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, but we don't know that, Morris. That's what the
Price Waterhouse Cooper's report does. It looks at how long
people study. It looks at their degree of responsibility. It
looks at the life protection and the work that they do.
It looks at their earnings. We can't sit here as
lay people and say, oh, an engineer is nothing like xyz.
It's got to be done properly. So those claims that
(03:27):
you're talking about are likely, if they don't stack up,
to be kicked out. So the process in the system
is already there. This is purely to get money that
they can put towards the budget, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Ali In which case, then if the claims will the
thirty three claims that have been sopped, they will simply
be reapplying, presumably under the new rules. It is just
deferring the spend, then, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Well, yes, it is deferring the spend. But we all
know and Morris will know this too, that when you're
working either with long term plans at a city council
level or you're doing it through a budget at a
national government level, being able to first spend and move
money around is absolutely key. And presenting of the budget,
and the point that she made about just starting again.
It was kind of just dropped into conversation. This case
(04:11):
that the Midwives has been have been running, has been
going for nearly a decade. The decision has been reserved
for nearly a year, and it has cost them thousands
and thousands of dollars. Is that just going to be
chucked out the window?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
When she doesn't? It will be, won't it? Because it
is retrospective. This law is retrospective, So it stops everything
in its tracks, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, that I don't know, And I've just been in
touch with the college head now and she she does, well.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It's out retrospect. But how about if you get a
much better sort of clarity about the comparators and the
definitions into the legislation and then you don't have these
wild and swings of there is no way that some
of these occupations are comparisons.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Why does it need to be in the legislation, Morris,
it's in the negotiations, and they vary so much, particularly
with women. Where you've got and who one of your
texters say earlier, Heather, Oh you can't compare? You know
what was it a librarian with an engineer. They've got
to be men and women in the same job. The
point is most of these professions have got only women
(05:11):
in them. That's what a comparator is for. So I
don't think people actually understand that the Huddle.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
With New Zealand Southeby's International Realty achieve extraordinary results with
unparallel reach.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Back of the Huddle. Morris Williams and Ali Jones. Ali,
what did you make of the NATS pretending they're going
to do something about banning kids from social media? Oh?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Look, when you get into the detail of it, I
think some of the comments that some of the politicians
have made are fair enough. They're talking about putting some restrictions,
putting some parameters, putting some controls around it that you know,
we try and help our kids in many ways in
their lives in New Zealand, and this is causing a
huge problem just almost unfettered access to the Internet. So look,
(05:54):
I think banning is probably not what they're going to do.
It all depends what the terms of reference are and
what the outcomes expected.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I mean, if you really were going to do something, Morris,
you wouldn't do it as a member's bill. Would you
you do it as much it does as a government bill,
or get some cross pack.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
It goes into the bis get ten and never gets
seen again, so it's got your headlined today and you'll
never remember it again. I actually think it's a great idea.
I've got very serious concerns about how you make it work,
and how are you implemented, and how easy it is
to get around it, because these tech companies will set
up new products which won't be called social media products.
They'll be streaming service or something else, and you'll still
(06:30):
be able to put your material in. I just think
the kids' minds are being warped so badly by social media.
I think it's really changing the world in a really
bad way. And if there is a way when my
kids grow up. We had to try and find a
way to blocking the Wi fi so they couldn't be
playing on the social media as it was back and
it was only getting started. In the end, we got
(06:50):
to the point we didn't know how to do it
because the technology didn't allow on those days, So we
turned the Wi Fi off at about six o'clock at
night and Raymond would complain to me, I want to
go on to the Internet and look, as I said,
well you can't because it's all blocked off so that
kids can't get on the w I think it's the
best thing to do is to stop your kids from
seeing this stuff because they are exposed to garbage on
that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I would have thought, Morris, that there's a reasonable number
of votes out there from parents, you know, parents like
yourself who've been through, parents like myself who face the
prospect of going through it like there must be a
huge number and grandparents, So there must be a huge
number of votes, and actually doing this properly and getting
it right.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Correct, And the only way you'll get it right is
if you do it as a government bill with all
the necessary advisors in there and the contestable advice about
how you make it work, how you get around the
tech companies trying to skirt around it. Put some penalties
in place that they can get pinged and stung quite
badly if they're proven to misbehave. Because it's a great idea.
I just it's really hard to do, That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Too, right, Hey, Ali, I'm still not even though three
of them have done it now with the gmails. I'm
still not that exercise by it, are you? No? Not really?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I look, this was actually really close to home for
me because I can't do everything that I need to
do with my elector roll, with my counselor email. I
can't screenshot, I can't copy and paste, and apparently this
is all downe to security and obviously it's a trust
issue as well. I know it's bloody.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It's very frustrated.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So I have to while I have to forward it
to my red PR email and do things from there,
which the Council's happy about because then if there's a leak,
thing though, it's me sending it to my work email.
But I know what the frustrations are. What I'm more
concerned about is how these ministers aren't able to do
the jobs that they are supposed to be doing. Quite
how hard is it to make sure you can print too, right?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I mean the printing issue is something I'll tell you
what though, Morris, I was thinking, actually I'm quite impressed
with I always worry about ministers doing this because I
think are they trying to get around the Official Information Act?
But I was quite impressed that actually TVs had managed
to get like a couple of folders that Erica actually
gave to them out of her own Gmail account. That's
not bad, is it? She's facing up Heather.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I learned about twelve thirteen years ago how to not
do this stuff. A strappy young reporter working for I
think the story TV three stopped me on the bridge
walk over and shoved a microphone in my face and said,
do you use private email? And what the hell is
this course?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Does that mean?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Oh? Yes, that's right, it was you.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Was because I think I was how embarrassing? Stop each
is the right way, but was it's why were you
in trouble? What were you doing?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
What you were asking? Every one of them? All ministers
were being asked as we walked over, did we use
private email? And I thought, well, yeah, of course I
do ye private email? I mean, if I'm arranging to
have dinner with Ray when I don't use my parliamentary
ministerial emails.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What are you doing and doing it on email? Anyway?
Why aren't you just calling your.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Wife many times? If you're stuck in a boring meeting
and you can't get out to make a phone call,
I'll flick an email to somebody. You really so.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Would you email? This is interesting, you'd email your wife
for a dinner date over texting your wife.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
No, no, no, no no, not a dinner date, but
just to say I'll be back home tonight for dinner.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Okay, all right, you're.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Still doing it hither, aren't you? Why don't you shove
the microphone right up?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
As I am so fascinated by Morris's private communications, as
you you years later.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You scared. You scared the bejeez on me that day
because I thought I had done something wrong, and then
it turned out every minister you were stopping and asking them.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It was just the confidence with which I was approaching it. Obviously, guys,
thank you. It's lovely to chat to you. Morris Williamson
and Ellie Jones are huddle this evening.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
For more from Hither Duplessy, Allen Drive listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
The huddle with New Zealand Southeby's International Realty find you
are one of a kind on the huddle this evening'
got Morris Williamson Auckland Council obviously former National Party minister
and Ali Jones read pr and christ Church Local board member.
Holl are you too good?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Ay, Good evening, Heather, and good evening Ali Hirius.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Morris, what did you make of the pay equity announcement.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I think it's a sensible move because they're not getting
rid of pay equity. Pay equity will be here to stay.
But it's how you do the comparators. And I've had
a number of companies and employers raise it with me
along the way, saying that the ludicrous comparator of some
staff they've got with another occupation I think I I mean,
I've heard the Minister in the House today saying that
(00:42):
Health New Zealand and the clerical staff were being compared
to mechanical engineers Health New Zealand librarians to transport engineers.
And the one I loved was Oranger Tamariki social workers
to air traffic controllers. There's just lunatic lunacy. It's dear lunacy.
So the idea of pay equity is good, but make
sure you get the comparators sorted.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
What do you think about it, Ali, Well, there's no
doubt in my mind that the coalition's using this to
fund the budget. Absolutely nothing they have said today Luxeon
or van Walden has made sense. So I heard chryst
Re Luxen say we're making sure we have a process
that is more robust, workable and sustainable than what I mean.
I have been involved with the College of Midwives pay
(01:23):
equity case. I'm not any longer. The hopes they had
to jump through the independent very expensive reports that they
had to pay for to get robust and accepted comparators.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
And this is also for Meris.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
The midwives union was huge. Morris, I think you're being
incredibly disingenuous when you start talking about, you know, comparing
librarians with engineers and so forth. Once it gets to
a negotiation into a court case, as it has with
the midwives, you just don't get that stuff accepted without
robust independent reports. So I think they're actually changing something
(01:59):
that doesn't need changeing.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Who were the midwives comparing themselves to. By the way, Alie, that's.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
A good question, and that's one but I haven't managed
to look at and pull up today. But the PwC report,
I think it was PwC that did it. They looked
at the number of years that someone studies for what
their experiences and what their life protection responsibilities are in
the work that they do. So there are a whole
lot of different things that it might have been, for example,
(02:28):
a police detective. I'm not sure, don't quote me on that,
but it is done in a very scientific, very very
independent and robust waste. So I was curious to hear
Brook van Velden say that rubbish to.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So Alie, Well, those comparators I gave you here that
are actually in claims, because I've seen the copies of them,
and I thought the best one i've seen, I haven't
even yes that one use this one. Corrections officers have
been used as a compartor for nurses claims, for admin's
support staff claims, and for teacher aides. Now, I don't
think they've got anything to do with each other, whether
one's better or not, or bigger or less, but I
(03:03):
just think to use them as a comparator for the
work you do is just wrong.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Yeah, but we don't know that, Morris. That's what the
Price Waterhouse Cooper's report does. It looks at how long
people study. It looks at their degree of responsibility. It
looks at the life protection and the work that they do.
It looks at their earnings. We can't sit here as
lay people and say, oh, an engineer is nothing like xyz.
It's got to be done properly. So those claims that
(03:27):
you're talking about are likely, if they don't stack up,
to be kicked out. So the process in the system
is already there. This is purely to get money that
they can put towards the budget, no doubt.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Ali In which case, then if the claims will the
thirty three claims that have been sopped, they will simply
be reapplying, presumably under the new rules. It is just
deferring the spend, then, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Well, yes, it is deferring the spend. But we all
know and Morris will know this too, that when you're
working either with long term plans at a city council
level or you're doing it through a budget at a
national government level, being able to first spend and move
money around is absolutely key. And presenting of the budget,
and the point that she made about just starting again.
It was kind of just dropped into conversation. This case
(04:11):
that the Midwives has been have been running, has been
going for nearly a decade. The decision has been reserved
for nearly a year, and it has cost them thousands
and thousands of dollars. Is that just going to be
chucked out the window?
Speaker 1 (04:23):
When she doesn't? It will be, won't it? Because it
is retrospective. This law is retrospective, So it stops everything
in its tracks, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Yeah, that I don't know, And I've just been in
touch with the college head now and she she does, well.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
It's out retrospect. But how about if you get a
much better sort of clarity about the comparators and the
definitions into the legislation and then you don't have these
wild and swings of there is no way that some
of these occupations are comparisons.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Why does it need to be in the legislation, Morris,
it's in the negotiations, and they vary so much, particularly
with women. Where you've got and who one of your
texters say earlier, Heather, Oh you can't compare? You know
what was it a librarian with an engineer. They've got
to be men and women in the same job. The
point is most of these professions have got only women
(05:11):
in them. That's what a comparator is for. So I
don't think people actually understand that the Huddle.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
With New Zealand Southeby's International Realty achieve extraordinary results with
unparallel reach.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Back of the Huddle. Morris Williams and Ali Jones. Ali,
what did you make of the NATS pretending they're going
to do something about banning kids from social media? Oh?
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Look, when you get into the detail of it, I
think some of the comments that some of the politicians
have made are fair enough. They're talking about putting some restrictions,
putting some parameters, putting some controls around it that you know,
we try and help our kids in many ways in
their lives in New Zealand, and this is causing a
huge problem just almost unfettered access to the Internet. So look,
(05:54):
I think banning is probably not what they're going to do.
It all depends what the terms of reference are and
what the outcomes expected.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
I mean, if you really were going to do something, Morris,
you wouldn't do it as a member's bill. Would you
you do it as much it does as a government bill,
or get some cross pack.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
It goes into the bis get ten and never gets
seen again, so it's got your headlined today and you'll
never remember it again. I actually think it's a great idea.
I've got very serious concerns about how you make it work,
and how are you implemented, and how easy it is
to get around it, because these tech companies will set
up new products which won't be called social media products.
They'll be streaming service or something else, and you'll still
(06:30):
be able to put your material in. I just think
the kids' minds are being warped so badly by social media.
I think it's really changing the world in a really
bad way. And if there is a way when my
kids grow up. We had to try and find a
way to blocking the Wi fi so they couldn't be
playing on the social media as it was back and
it was only getting started. In the end, we got
(06:50):
to the point we didn't know how to do it
because the technology didn't allow on those days, So we
turned the Wi Fi off at about six o'clock at
night and Raymond would complain to me, I want to
go on to the Internet and look, as I said,
well you can't because it's all blocked off so that
kids can't get on the w I think it's the
best thing to do is to stop your kids from
seeing this stuff because they are exposed to garbage on
that stuff.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I would have thought, Morris, that there's a reasonable number
of votes out there from parents, you know, parents like
yourself who've been through, parents like myself who face the
prospect of going through it like there must be a
huge number and grandparents, So there must be a huge
number of votes, and actually doing this properly and getting
it right.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Correct, And the only way you'll get it right is
if you do it as a government bill with all
the necessary advisors in there and the contestable advice about
how you make it work, how you get around the
tech companies trying to skirt around it. Put some penalties
in place that they can get pinged and stung quite
badly if they're proven to misbehave. Because it's a great idea.
I just it's really hard to do, That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Too, right, Hey, Ali, I'm still not even though three
of them have done it now with the gmails. I'm
still not that exercise by it, are you? No? Not really?
Speaker 3 (07:54):
I look, this was actually really close to home for
me because I can't do everything that I need to
do with my elector roll, with my counselor email. I
can't screenshot, I can't copy and paste, and apparently this
is all downe to security and obviously it's a trust
issue as well. I know it's bloody.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It's very frustrated.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
So I have to while I have to forward it
to my red PR email and do things from there,
which the Council's happy about because then if there's a leak,
thing though, it's me sending it to my work email.
But I know what the frustrations are. What I'm more
concerned about is how these ministers aren't able to do
the jobs that they are supposed to be doing. Quite
how hard is it to make sure you can print too, right?
Speaker 1 (08:30):
I mean the printing issue is something I'll tell you
what though, Morris, I was thinking, actually I'm quite impressed
with I always worry about ministers doing this because I
think are they trying to get around the Official Information Act?
But I was quite impressed that actually TVs had managed
to get like a couple of folders that Erica actually
gave to them out of her own Gmail account. That's
not bad, is it? She's facing up Heather.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I learned about twelve thirteen years ago how to not
do this stuff. A strappy young reporter working for I
think the story TV three stopped me on the bridge
walk over and shoved a microphone in my face and said,
do you use private email? And what the hell is
this course?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Does that mean?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Oh? Yes, that's right, it was you.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Was because I think I was how embarrassing? Stop each
is the right way, but was it's why were you
in trouble? What were you doing?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
What you were asking? Every one of them? All ministers
were being asked as we walked over, did we use
private email? And I thought, well, yeah, of course I
do ye private email? I mean, if I'm arranging to
have dinner with Ray when I don't use my parliamentary
ministerial emails.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What are you doing and doing it on email? Anyway?
Why aren't you just calling your.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Wife many times? If you're stuck in a boring meeting
and you can't get out to make a phone call,
I'll flick an email to somebody. You really so.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Would you email? This is interesting, you'd email your wife
for a dinner date over texting your wife.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
No, no, no, no no, not a dinner date, but
just to say I'll be back home tonight for dinner.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Okay, all right, you're.
Speaker 3 (09:53):
Still doing it hither, aren't you? Why don't you shove
the microphone right up?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
As I am so fascinated by Morris's private communications, as
you you years later.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
You scared. You scared the bejeez on me that day
because I thought I had done something wrong, and then
it turned out every minister you were stopping and asking them.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
It was just the confidence with which I was approaching it. Obviously, guys,
thank you. It's lovely to chat to you. Morris Williamson
and Ellie Jones are huddle this evening.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
For more from Hither Duplessy, Allen Drive listen live to
news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow
the podcast on iHeartRadio
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