The Public Service Minister has confirmed she's committed to cutting public service diversity requirements.
Minister Judith Collins is looking to bring a draft bill to Cabinet in July, to remove diversity requirements when hiring chief executives.
It would also remove their responsibilities to promote diversity.
Collins says these requirements are holding the public service back - and she's looking to ensure the right people are hired for the job.
"We're also hearing from public servants that they like to think that they are employed on merit, not based on little boxes that have been ticked."
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now it's being reported that Judith Collins is looking at
getting rid of DEI hiring in the public service. She's
written cabinet papers suggesting that public sector bosses should be
allowed to hire based solely on merit and without the
current requirements to foster an inclusive workplace. Now she's doing
this obviously in her capacity as the Public Service Minister. Judith. Hello, ah,
(00:20):
hi Heather, How committed are you to actually wanted to
get rid of these rules?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well? I think absolutely commissive. This is something that seems
to be some focus of the previous government. But we're
also hearing from public servants that they like to think
that they are employed on merit, not based on little
boxes that have been tipped. So I think it's one
of those things that's going to hold the public service
(00:46):
back if we can't get the right people for the
job and we can't have the widest pool of capable applicants.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
What are the rules? I mean, are the rules that
they don't seem like they're hard and fast. It's just
like it has to be a consideration diversity. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with valuing diversity of thought and experience.
Where you're at it too. It's all part of who's
the best person for the job. But at the moment,
it's really clear that the public service seems to be
getting itself wound up and not to make sure that
they followed this particular set of rules, such as the
equal pay rules, the Human Rights Act, all those sorts
(01:25):
of rules, but are already in law, So we're not
getting rid of of requirements. What we're saying is to
follow that law, not follow just this particular law, and
not even mentioning other laws. So it's like, I don't
know when Labor rewrote this. It was Chris Hipkins, I
think was the minister at the time. They seem to
be completely intent on identity politics, and I just don't
(01:48):
think the museum tax should be having to pay for that.
And it's also it's not fair on public servants who
feel sometimes and people accuse them of having been appointed
because of theirnicity or some diversity thing when they're just
trying to get do the right job. So it's like
acknowledging the fact we already have laws for these things.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Is there just explain to me exactly what the rules
currently are. Is there a rule that says you have
to have a woman chief executive or you have to
have fifty percent chief at executives or something like. Is
there an actual number a target here?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
No, but there's lots of There are targets, but there's
no requirement to actually have a woman chief execs for
this or that. But I think it is more important
to say, you know, this is over thirty percent of
a basically New Zealand's business, and it is important that
we know that everyone who's appointed is appointed on them.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
No, no, no, you don't need to convince me. I one
hundred percent agree with you. I'm just trying to establish
what on earth they've been doing. So has it been
sort of at your discretion if you're hiring, And many
of them have been overly focused on that?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I think of they're overly focused because New Zealanders tend
to be like that in particularly the public service. If
you give them the tools to say you've got to
look at all these things, they'll look at them all right,
they'll look at them all day long. If you don't say,
just choose the right person for the job. And I mean,
(03:20):
obviously may well take into account people's life experience and
who they are and what they're you know, everything that
they can do. But it's also their understanding that once
you make those targets that public servants report on, that's
what they will work to. So just say, get the
best versus of the job and get their job done.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Have you come across any people who have been hired
because they are women and actually have been otherwise disappointing?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Occasionally I have come across people who I wonder how
they were hired. But that's not just women. Of course,
there are some times I come across the odd man
and I think, well, how the hell did that happen?
But that's you know, hither that's me. I don't want
to name people.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
That's exactly I'm after. I want you to name names.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Oh you are naughty. No, But I think whatever it is.
If you tell public servers their role is to get
merit based appointments and not to take too much notice
of people's personal lives or anything else, I mean, you're
going to get better appointments. But also people know that
they're being appointed for the right reasons, not about anything
(04:33):
else about their personal lives.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Judas, it's good to talk to you. Thank you so much.
Judith Collins, Public Service Minister. For more from Heather Duplessy
Allen Drive, Listen live to news talks they'd be from
four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
Now it's being reported that Judith Collins is looking at
getting rid of DEI hiring in the public service. She's
written cabinet papers suggesting that public sector bosses should be
allowed to hire based solely on merit and without the
current requirements to foster an inclusive workplace. Now she's doing
this obviously in her capacity as the Public Service Minister. Judith. Hello, ah,
(00:20):
hi Heather, How committed are you to actually wanted to
get rid of these rules?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Well? I think absolutely commissive. This is something that seems
to be some focus of the previous government. But we're
also hearing from public servants that they like to think
that they are employed on merit, not based on little
boxes that have been tipped. So I think it's one
of those things that's going to hold the public service
(00:46):
back if we can't get the right people for the
job and we can't have the widest pool of capable applicants.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
What are the rules? I mean, are the rules that
they don't seem like they're hard and fast. It's just
like it has to be a consideration diversity. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with valuing diversity of thought and experience.
Where you're at it too. It's all part of who's
the best person for the job. But at the moment,
it's really clear that the public service seems to be
getting itself wound up and not to make sure that
they followed this particular set of rules, such as the
equal pay rules, the Human Rights Act, all those sorts
(01:25):
of rules, but are already in law, So we're not
getting rid of of requirements. What we're saying is to
follow that law, not follow just this particular law, and
not even mentioning other laws. So it's like, I don't
know when Labor rewrote this. It was Chris Hipkins, I
think was the minister at the time. They seem to
be completely intent on identity politics, and I just don't
(01:48):
think the museum tax should be having to pay for that.
And it's also it's not fair on public servants who
feel sometimes and people accuse them of having been appointed
because of theirnicity or some diversity thing when they're just
trying to get do the right job. So it's like
acknowledging the fact we already have laws for these things.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Is there just explain to me exactly what the rules
currently are. Is there a rule that says you have
to have a woman chief executive or you have to
have fifty percent chief at executives or something like. Is
there an actual number a target here?
Speaker 2 (02:23):
No, but there's lots of There are targets, but there's
no requirement to actually have a woman chief execs for
this or that. But I think it is more important
to say, you know, this is over thirty percent of
a basically New Zealand's business, and it is important that
we know that everyone who's appointed is appointed on them.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
No, no, no, you don't need to convince me. I one
hundred percent agree with you. I'm just trying to establish
what on earth they've been doing. So has it been
sort of at your discretion if you're hiring, And many
of them have been overly focused on that?
Speaker 2 (02:59):
I think of they're overly focused because New Zealanders tend
to be like that in particularly the public service. If
you give them the tools to say you've got to
look at all these things, they'll look at them all right,
they'll look at them all day long. If you don't say,
just choose the right person for the job. And I mean,
(03:20):
obviously may well take into account people's life experience and
who they are and what they're you know, everything that
they can do. But it's also their understanding that once
you make those targets that public servants report on, that's
what they will work to. So just say, get the
best versus of the job and get their job done.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Have you come across any people who have been hired
because they are women and actually have been otherwise disappointing?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Occasionally I have come across people who I wonder how
they were hired. But that's not just women. Of course,
there are some times I come across the odd man
and I think, well, how the hell did that happen?
But that's you know, hither that's me. I don't want
to name people.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
That's exactly I'm after. I want you to name names.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Oh you are naughty. No, But I think whatever it is.
If you tell public servers their role is to get
merit based appointments and not to take too much notice
of people's personal lives or anything else, I mean, you're
going to get better appointments. But also people know that
they're being appointed for the right reasons, not about anything
(04:33):
else about their personal lives.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
Judas, it's good to talk to you. Thank you so much.
Judith Collins, Public Service Minister. For more from Heather Duplessy
Allen Drive, Listen live to news talks they'd be from
four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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