The 2025 Budget is due out this week - and the Finance Minister's feeling hopeful despite the concerns around Te Pāti Māori's antics.
Prime Minister Chris Luxon made it clear earlier today that National will not make any concessions on the Privileges Committee's recommendation to suspend three Te Pāti Māori MPs from Parliament.
Nicola Willis says this week is all about the Budget - which aims to address concerns Kiwis have about the cost of living.
"We just need to focus on the things that will make a difference to people. We can't control Te Pāti Māori, they will do what they want to do."
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And with us. Now is Nikola Willi's Finance minister in
budget week? Hi Nikoler, Hi Heather? Are you but gutted
that this budget week is being overshadowed by this business
with the Marti Party punishment.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
No, this week is still about the budget because that's
what's going to deliver benefits for New Zealanders, and I
think that's what most Keywis would want us focused on.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Did you watch one News and three News this evening.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I haven't watched them yet.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Okay, what I hate to tell you, but it was
all about the Marti Party punishment and very little about
your tax changes, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well. I think that's going to frustrate New Zealanders because
when I speak with every day people, they're saying to me,
I'm worried about the cost of living, about the economy.
I want to see investment in the health system, and
that's exactly what the budget's about this week. What they
don't want to see is parliamentarians obsessed with themselves, focused
on parliamentary procedure and breaking the rules.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Have you got any more? You've got a couple more
days before the budget, a couple of full working days.
Have you got any more announcements lined up.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yes, there will be ministers making a couple of small
announcements in the next cup.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, and see small announcements are going to be drowned
out by that debate tomorrow, aren't they. Oh well, look,
come on, I'm just going to keep for us this
right frustrating to you.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, we just need to focus on the things that
will make a difference to people. We can't control the party, Mary.
They will do what they want to do. Labor will
do what they want to do and how they want
to be seen as part of a chaoto. It's distracted
from the issues, then that's on them to be.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Fair and it is fair that the opposition will make
hay but this is an opportunity that was left to
them by Jerry Brownlee the Speaker, a member of your party.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, the process in Parliament is clear. There are rules.
If people break the rules, the Privileges Committee investigate those
rule breaks and then they determine what censure should occur.
The Privileges Committee have made a series of recommendations in
the House Tomorrow after question time, Judith Collins, the chair
of that committee, will present the report. A debate will
(01:57):
ensue and how long that debate goes on is ultimately
up to the House.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Is it normal? Is it normal to have the debate.
I mean, it's normal for everybody to be able to
debate it obviously debate the recommendations. Is it normal for
the speaker to point out to them that the debate
is available to them or is it normally just a
case if you move it and then get seconded and
there we go.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, that's the discretion of the speaker. I think that
what is unusual he is the way that Labor of
taken to party Marty's side, or that's way to be
endorsing them, taking actions which we're pretty threatening, pretty physical,
and then really thumbing their nose at the privilege.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
How do you know that Labor has taken their side?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
That seems to be the indications from Chris Hipkins public statements.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh interesting that they're going to pay for that. Is
it normal though, for during one of these debates about
the Privileges Committee, for every single amendment to be debated
by everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Again, well, I understand that that is the procedure of
the House, and ultimately the Speaker is the right person
to make that determination. So those are his statements. As
I say, I believe in allowing the rules of Parliament.
The Speaker ultimately determines how those rules are applied, and
we respect his authority in that regard. It's a shame
that more members of Parliament don't respect the rules of
(03:11):
the place. We are there to do a job for
New Zealanders, not to just behave however we wish to behave.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Do you know whether this debate, because this debate can
go on for days and days and days, right, does
it end? Does Budget day end it? Or can it
or does it just pause? We have Budget Day and
then it resumes thereafter?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well two things there. First, it's ultimately up to the
House how long that debate goes on, so we'll see tomorrow.
And then second, budget day is pretty sacrisanct because without
the budget you can't turn the lights on on the
schools and the hospitals. That's going into people's bank accounts.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Do you know the answer to that question, because I what.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I what I understand is that Budget Day will go ahead.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
No, I know that, No, I know the debate is on.
But does that mean the debate pauses and then we
resume it after Budget Day?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, all of that is to be made clear in
the next couple of days.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Here now, why does it cost sixty three million dollars
to change tax rules?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Two changes that the government is making there. The first
is recognizing that startups often want their employees to be
partly compensated in the form of shares in the company,
and at the moment that can create complications because they
have to pay tax on those shares even before they've
sold them. So we're putting in place of deferral regime,
which we used to make well mean ten million dollars
(04:28):
less tax collected over the next four years. The second
thing is that we want to see more foreign investors
able to invest in New Zealand infrastructure and projects. There's
evidence that the rules around something called thin capitalization are
limiting how much investment happens in New Zealand. Basically they're
denied interest deductibility for the borrowing they do. So we've
(04:50):
put out a consultation pape today to say how could
we tweak the rules to make this a more attractive
place to invest. Ird estimate the cost of that over
the next four years would be around sixty five million dollars.
The precise cost depends on the final details of the policy,
which we intend to introduce in a text.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Okay, So it's not sixty five million dollars to change
the rules. It is sixty five million dollars in what
it would cost to actually implement.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
This, yeah, and less tax that will be paid.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay. Now, I've been thinking about the supermarkets thing that
happened on Friday, and I mentioned this on Friday after
I spoke to you, But I reckon that Willworths may
have been firing you guys a little warning with that
GST claim.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
What do you think, Well, I think will Worth know
that New Zealanders are frustrated by the prices they pay
at the checkout. Will Worth know that the Grocery Commission,
the Commerce Commission, and many other entities have pointed out
that a lack of competition in New Zealand is one
factor driving higher prices to Zealand shoppers and will Worth
(05:50):
are pretty keen to protect their position, which is one
in which they act within a functional job.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Beee that as a day. I think they're going to
come at you with the GST right, They're going to
blame you, you for the high prices of the groceries,
don't you think.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, I remain hopeful Heather, that will Worth will see
that the government is very serious about getting a better
deal for shoppers. We have a number of options for
how we proceed, and I think it would be better
for we're Worth to come to the table and the
spirit of cooperation than try and fight us on this one,
because I tell you what, there's a lot of issues
that I get involved in, and this is one where
(06:24):
I reckon. The vast majority of New Zealanders are on
the government's side.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
See I reckon if they start coming at you with
the GST, people will flip on this, don't you think.
I mean, the GST is a hot button for people.
This is why we talk about it every election.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
But that is not the driver of New Zealand having
much higher grocery prices.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I've got to undertred, somebody said to me on Friday,
and I think this is a great example. Tell me, Nikola,
how any of your supermarket reforms would bring down the
price of butter.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well? Have you been to Costco lately, Heather?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Costing about it today?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah? I went. I visited there a few weeks ago
and I was shocked because anyone who's gone and bought
a five hundred gram box of butter att the Souf market, Well, no,
it's up to about ten bucks at the moment I
went to Costco, they sell it and killogram blocks for
nine five. Now tell me how are they able to
(07:19):
do that? But they with pack and save New World cannot.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
They say, smaller margins but bulk buying.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
So if there you go.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
But then but that says that you cannot split up
the supermarkets like you want to, because if you split
up the supermarkets, you're literally doing the opposite of voult Bar.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
It does not say that at all either, because Costco
is one shop, one shop in New Zealand and they
are able to offer that far more affordable.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
But I'll tell you what, I'll go down to your
local New World and buy like five boxes a butter.
You do that at Costcos that's their The.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Other thing about Costco is this wasin a twenty kilometer
radius of that store. Prices at nearby soof markets are cheaper.
Why because Costco has introduced com petition to that community.
And that's my point. Where you have a competitor, everyone
sharpens up their prices and that's what I want to see.
I want to see more competition and people sharpening up.
(08:11):
And I think it's a great thing that Costco are
competing by saying, look, you're worried about the price of butter,
we sell cheaper butter. And actually a lot of New
Zealanders do choose to do their full shop at Costco.
Some of them shop around and do other things as well,
but that has the effect I think of showing that
there are opportunities for the major ser market chains to
lower their prices, and they don't seem to be taking
(08:33):
all of the opportunities available.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
You make an excellent point. I'm going to give that
one to you, Nikola. Are you coming in on budget
Day on Thursday? We we're going to ban all talk
of the Marori party. Are you coming into our post
office studio in Parliament.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I'm looking forward to it very much. And because the
expression on your face when I make really good points
and you just have that beaming smile that you're just
thinking what a great points you just made. But I'll
also be able to see your frown when you think
that I'm not making sense, so that I'll allow me
creet myself quickly.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Five oh five Thursday. It's a date, Nicholas, Thank you
very much. Nichola will us the Finance Minister. For more
from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
And with us. Now is Nikola Willi's Finance minister in
budget week? Hi Nikoler, Hi Heather? Are you but gutted
that this budget week is being overshadowed by this business
with the Marti Party punishment.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
No, this week is still about the budget because that's
what's going to deliver benefits for New Zealanders, and I
think that's what most Keywis would want us focused on.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Did you watch one News and three News this evening.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I haven't watched them yet.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Okay, what I hate to tell you, but it was
all about the Marti Party punishment and very little about
your tax changes, wasn't it.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Well. I think that's going to frustrate New Zealanders because
when I speak with every day people, they're saying to me,
I'm worried about the cost of living, about the economy.
I want to see investment in the health system, and
that's exactly what the budget's about this week. What they
don't want to see is parliamentarians obsessed with themselves, focused
on parliamentary procedure and breaking the rules.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Have you got any more? You've got a couple more
days before the budget, a couple of full working days.
Have you got any more announcements lined up.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yes, there will be ministers making a couple of small
announcements in the next cup.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, and see small announcements are going to be drowned
out by that debate tomorrow, aren't they. Oh well, look,
come on, I'm just going to keep for us this
right frustrating to you.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, we just need to focus on the things that
will make a difference to people. We can't control the party, Mary.
They will do what they want to do. Labor will
do what they want to do and how they want
to be seen as part of a chaoto. It's distracted
from the issues, then that's on them to be.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Fair and it is fair that the opposition will make
hay but this is an opportunity that was left to
them by Jerry Brownlee the Speaker, a member of your party.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, the process in Parliament is clear. There are rules.
If people break the rules, the Privileges Committee investigate those
rule breaks and then they determine what censure should occur.
The Privileges Committee have made a series of recommendations in
the House Tomorrow after question time, Judith Collins, the chair
of that committee, will present the report. A debate will
(01:57):
ensue and how long that debate goes on is ultimately
up to the House.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Is it normal? Is it normal to have the debate.
I mean, it's normal for everybody to be able to
debate it obviously debate the recommendations. Is it normal for
the speaker to point out to them that the debate
is available to them or is it normally just a
case if you move it and then get seconded and
there we go.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Well, that's the discretion of the speaker. I think that
what is unusual he is the way that Labor of
taken to party Marty's side, or that's way to be
endorsing them, taking actions which we're pretty threatening, pretty physical,
and then really thumbing their nose at the privilege.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
How do you know that Labor has taken their side?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
That seems to be the indications from Chris Hipkins public statements.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Oh interesting that they're going to pay for that. Is
it normal though, for during one of these debates about
the Privileges Committee, for every single amendment to be debated
by everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Again, well, I understand that that is the procedure of
the House, and ultimately the Speaker is the right person
to make that determination. So those are his statements. As
I say, I believe in allowing the rules of Parliament.
The Speaker ultimately determines how those rules are applied, and
we respect his authority in that regard. It's a shame
that more members of Parliament don't respect the rules of
(03:11):
the place. We are there to do a job for
New Zealanders, not to just behave however we wish to behave.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Do you know whether this debate, because this debate can
go on for days and days and days, right, does
it end? Does Budget day end it? Or can it
or does it just pause? We have Budget Day and
then it resumes thereafter?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Well two things there. First, it's ultimately up to the
House how long that debate goes on, so we'll see tomorrow.
And then second, budget day is pretty sacrisanct because without
the budget you can't turn the lights on on the
schools and the hospitals. That's going into people's bank accounts.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Do you know the answer to that question, because I what.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
I what I understand is that Budget Day will go ahead.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
No, I know that, No, I know the debate is on.
But does that mean the debate pauses and then we
resume it after Budget Day?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, all of that is to be made clear in
the next couple of days.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Here now, why does it cost sixty three million dollars
to change tax rules?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Two changes that the government is making there. The first
is recognizing that startups often want their employees to be
partly compensated in the form of shares in the company,
and at the moment that can create complications because they
have to pay tax on those shares even before they've
sold them. So we're putting in place of deferral regime,
which we used to make well mean ten million dollars
(04:28):
less tax collected over the next four years. The second
thing is that we want to see more foreign investors
able to invest in New Zealand infrastructure and projects. There's
evidence that the rules around something called thin capitalization are
limiting how much investment happens in New Zealand. Basically they're
denied interest deductibility for the borrowing they do. So we've
(04:50):
put out a consultation pape today to say how could
we tweak the rules to make this a more attractive
place to invest. Ird estimate the cost of that over
the next four years would be around sixty five million dollars.
The precise cost depends on the final details of the policy,
which we intend to introduce in a text.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Okay, So it's not sixty five million dollars to change
the rules. It is sixty five million dollars in what
it would cost to actually implement.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
This, yeah, and less tax that will be paid.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay. Now, I've been thinking about the supermarkets thing that
happened on Friday, and I mentioned this on Friday after
I spoke to you, But I reckon that Willworths may
have been firing you guys a little warning with that
GST claim.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
What do you think, Well, I think will Worth know
that New Zealanders are frustrated by the prices they pay
at the checkout. Will Worth know that the Grocery Commission,
the Commerce Commission, and many other entities have pointed out
that a lack of competition in New Zealand is one
factor driving higher prices to Zealand shoppers and will Worth
(05:50):
are pretty keen to protect their position, which is one
in which they act within a functional job.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Beee that as a day. I think they're going to
come at you with the GST right, They're going to
blame you, you for the high prices of the groceries,
don't you think.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, I remain hopeful Heather, that will Worth will see
that the government is very serious about getting a better
deal for shoppers. We have a number of options for
how we proceed, and I think it would be better
for we're Worth to come to the table and the
spirit of cooperation than try and fight us on this one,
because I tell you what, there's a lot of issues
that I get involved in, and this is one where
(06:24):
I reckon. The vast majority of New Zealanders are on
the government's side.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
See I reckon if they start coming at you with
the GST, people will flip on this, don't you think.
I mean, the GST is a hot button for people.
This is why we talk about it every election.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
But that is not the driver of New Zealand having
much higher grocery prices.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I've got to undertred, somebody said to me on Friday,
and I think this is a great example. Tell me, Nikola,
how any of your supermarket reforms would bring down the
price of butter.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Well? Have you been to Costco lately, Heather?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Costing about it today?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah? I went. I visited there a few weeks ago
and I was shocked because anyone who's gone and bought
a five hundred gram box of butter att the Souf market, Well, no,
it's up to about ten bucks at the moment I
went to Costco, they sell it and killogram blocks for
nine five. Now tell me how are they able to
(07:19):
do that? But they with pack and save New World cannot.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
They say, smaller margins but bulk buying.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
So if there you go.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
But then but that says that you cannot split up
the supermarkets like you want to, because if you split
up the supermarkets, you're literally doing the opposite of voult Bar.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
It does not say that at all either, because Costco
is one shop, one shop in New Zealand and they
are able to offer that far more affordable.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
But I'll tell you what, I'll go down to your
local New World and buy like five boxes a butter.
You do that at Costcos that's their The.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Other thing about Costco is this wasin a twenty kilometer
radius of that store. Prices at nearby soof markets are cheaper.
Why because Costco has introduced com petition to that community.
And that's my point. Where you have a competitor, everyone
sharpens up their prices and that's what I want to see.
I want to see more competition and people sharpening up.
(08:11):
And I think it's a great thing that Costco are
competing by saying, look, you're worried about the price of butter,
we sell cheaper butter. And actually a lot of New
Zealanders do choose to do their full shop at Costco.
Some of them shop around and do other things as well,
but that has the effect I think of showing that
there are opportunities for the major ser market chains to
lower their prices, and they don't seem to be taking
(08:33):
all of the opportunities available.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
You make an excellent point. I'm going to give that
one to you, Nikola. Are you coming in on budget
Day on Thursday? We we're going to ban all talk
of the Marori party. Are you coming into our post
office studio in Parliament.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I'm looking forward to it very much. And because the
expression on your face when I make really good points
and you just have that beaming smile that you're just
thinking what a great points you just made. But I'll
also be able to see your frown when you think
that I'm not making sense, so that I'll allow me
creet myself quickly.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Five oh five Thursday. It's a date, Nicholas, Thank you
very much. Nichola will us the Finance Minister. For more
from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive. Listen live to news talks.
It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio
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