Te Ururoa Flavell: former Te Pāti Māori co-leader on the Privileges Committee debate into the actions of MPs being deferred

The debate on Te Pāti Māori's proposed punishment has been paused until June - but it's still sparked discussion among some.

Debate was set to begin today on proposed suspensions for the Te Pāti Māori MPs who did a haka during voting on the Treaty Principles Bill - before the Government moved to adjourn it.

Despite this, former co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell has spoken in defence of Te Pāti Māori.

"The bigger kaupapa here is around an ability for Māori to express their views in the Parliament of our land - and allow that to happen on the back of what has happened through history in Parliament."

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Now, as you well know, the Maori Party punishment debate
isn't happening. It's been delayed until June fifth. The Leader
of the House, Chris Bishop, said it would be wrong
to deny a party the right to debate the budget.
Flavel is a former co leader of the Maori Party
and is with us. Now, Hey, order here, Heather, how
are you very well? Thank you? Would this all have
happened under you? Is this the kind of party that

(00:20):
you could have seen it becoming under your leadership?

Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm not too sure. There are a couple of times
that we definitely tested the boundaries. I remember taking the
Oaths for example, and talking to the tret away Tony
and that caused a bit of a stir. So over time,
you know, as we've settled in as a sort of
an or, as the group has settled into an independent
party that attempts to put and highlight copable Maori in

(00:47):
front of the nation, it's probably inevitable that over time
these sorts of things would happen because and it's not
new because back in my day, as I say, we
were attempting to press the boundaries through from the clauses
and the treaty true to just today lmighty being spoken
in the house.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, And I suppose every time you push at a boundary,
and you push at the boundary, it kind of you know,
we will get more and more as the boundary goes out.
The thing that you had pressed that made people upset
is no longer something that makes people upset. But it
does feel like it's kind of gone a bit far.
If we've got one co leader pulling the gun thing,
is that another another leader in Parliament? Don't you think?

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Well, I don't know. I don't necessarily accept that that's
the case about pulling a gun. I mean, you know,
people stand up in the debating chamber and you've seen
it all yourself. People express themselves in different ways. And
I suppose just in the eye of the holder. And
does anybody really believe that Debbie is going to really
take up arms against anybody? I don't think so. I mean,

(01:44):
often this is all about expression. I won't talk about
just the thing or whatever it might be, because it's
it's done all the time, even mister Peters.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
But you can't other people come on. You can't say
that's okay because you can't be going around as a
professional adult pulling gun fingers at each other and thinking
that that's okay.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well I said that, but that that is on the
basis that somebody believes it was pulling the gun. And
as I say, even mister peters Are from time to
time has been roll to wave his little old finger
in certain directions and so on, as if as if
to do the similar similar actions. So I'm not going
to defend that. The bigger cobopper here is around, you know,
an ability for mari to express their views in the

(02:25):
Parliament of our land and allow that to happen on
the back of what has happened, you know, through history
in parliament and as I say, even in our time
we had to fight hard for the acceptance of mighty
language in parliament. So times have moved on and hakker
is not new in parliament, and yet it seems to
have been blind right.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
That's not the problem though, and you know that you're
smart enough to know that's not the problem.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well it appears to be. And I know belove that,
come on, you.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Know you know the rules in parliament. You know that
you can't go and stand within two and a half
sword links of somebody else which is what they did.
Had they done the hacker in their own seats after
the vote was taken, it probably wouldn't be as big
a deal as it is. But they actually went up
to another MP. And you're not supposed to do that,
and there's reason why you're not supposed to do that,
and you know that, Derek.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
There are another number of occasions that I've been in
the House, people have stood in the oil and done
the hooker. So moving outside of your boundaries is not new.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
And they have they approached a member that close.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
No, the issue was about hakering.

Speaker 1 (03:29):
No, it's not, and you know it's not to it
or you know it's not about doing a huker.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
Made well, I think it is actually and it's not.
So somebody happens to have taken them argument out to
target mister Sema, although I don't disagree that mister Sema was.

Speaker 1 (03:43):
The targeting teams victim is okay. So if if because
you do realize that there is a separate process altogether here,
that is considering whether the hacker actually can be done
in parliament, whether it can be included within Parliament's rules,
you realize that.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Right, no, because there has already been accepted by by
Gingers way back in my day.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
So are you telling me thek is okay if the
hacker happens in parliament, but.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
It happens already has been and then we accept.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
The hocker is not the problem. It's the advancing on
a member that's the problem. It's the intimidation.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
No, well, that depends on of course, on who you
speak to. And of course they have been sanctioned for
doing the hooker in the house, and that seems to
be the discussion and the debate. Hokker is not new,
and hacker is a simple expression of and I suppose
it comes down to an understanding of what people believe
is you know the purpose of a hakker. I mean,

(04:38):
there's no denying, there's there's an element of what expression
style expression about what one person challenge from t hunter
times a celebration, at other times sadness, grief, happiness, all
of those expressions are contained in hokker all the time.
And there's no different konga from fai ordle that happens

(05:01):
on the allow. And I suppose this is the question,
you know, Heather, that I've sort of tried to focus on,
that is, you know, the ability to allow copeable Marii
tiko Mamori in the health, which is absolutely you know,
in terms of all the rules pretty much follows a
copable Parker how lone. And that's that's the challenge all
the time.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
All right to it as always love chatting to you mate,
look after yourself to d or Level, former leader of
the Maori Party, for more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive.
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